And MTV's Greatest MC of All Time Is...
- Thread starter AmerikazMost
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Your missing the point. We're talking about greatest emcee. Strip away everything you know about Pac, the media attention, the struggle, the charisma, the run ins with the law, the story of a Black panthers son, five shots...etc...
now think of him as just a normal emcee in New York, if he was to release the body of work he has and it wouldn't have received media attention he'd just be considered another average lyricist.
The only reason people think his work is amazing is because he is 2PAC! Greatest of all time...probably, greatest emcee of all time? never, classic album? not one...thats the cold hard truth!
now think of him as just a normal emcee in New York, if he was to release the body of work he has and it wouldn't have received media attention he'd just be considered another average lyricist.
The only reason people think his work is amazing is because he is 2PAC! Greatest of all time...probably, greatest emcee of all time? never, classic album? not one...thats the cold hard truth!
If we're talking about the greatest mc's, we are talking about so many other characteristics. What you are talking about is a local artists. It's not all about skills. You can have all the skills in the world, but if you don't know how to make music you won't get anywhere. If you are a mixtape artists spitting all types of punchlines, you'll get a buzz, but if you are dropping good music, you'll get noticed no matter what. 2pac knew how to make good music and appeal to the soul, so even if he was a local artists, I feel he'd still have a fanbase around his region and would ultimately gain notoriety.
you say it as if controversy is the only thing that made him sell. he was making good music in addition. If you don't make good music, you won't attract. No matter how many things you do. I don't think with all the controversy surrounding ODB that if he was to drop an album, he'd sell on controversy alone. If word gets around that so and so is wack, people won't check it out. Word use to get around in the streets like the new 2pac is hot. you may not like his music, but millions of people are attracted to the man cause of his music not because he was chasing down rappers with baseball bats. no matter what he was hot. I was listening to him before he blew up. I didn't really like him before the thug life album, but once I picked it up, I started feeling him and then gradually I started buying his other albums. all of which were great to me. and then when he died I started buying his makaveli albums that hit the streets. the main reason tupac's fanbase grew after his death is because of all the material that hit the streets. so many people were buying the bootlegs. and the bootleg stuff was unbelievable to so many people. posthumous retail albums played a part in his success, but imo his main fanbase came from all the bootlegs and how shocking the content matter was on those albums. The point is you can't go to jail, catch cases, or whatever, but if the music ain't there you won't sell. So many rappers are proofs of this.
I agree with what your saying, controversy must be accompanied with good music and I am not saying that 2Pac is successful for the sole purpose of hullabaloos surrounding his outspoken stance / run ins with the law etc. The point still remains that he is just an average emcee, I’d be the first to admit that as an individual he is of the utmost importance to hip hop and he flourished on a level other rappers can only dream to reach but this does not detract from the fact that he has never made a classic album.
Tupac is a bigger star in death than he was in life and this is the reason every media outlet have come to readdress albums like AEOM and MATW when they originally gave them average and slightly above average reviews previous to his untimely passing. They are placing importance on the albums because of who he was and what he had achieved in his life, not because they are genuine classics or even very good albums.
If AEOM had been made by an unknown New York emcee still alive today it would have received a below average review that remains today and wouldn’t have benefited from revisionalism. This is not to say that currently it is not an important album, it's just that it's nothing particularly special.
In all fairness, Death Row could release an album with twenty tracks of Tupac taking a shit and it would still go multi platinum and would still be respected by hardcore Tupac fans who are so enamoured with him as an individual they think it's a quality album. That is a sad thing for hip hop.
Tupac is a bigger star in death than he was in life and this is the reason every media outlet have come to readdress albums like AEOM and MATW when they originally gave them average and slightly above average reviews previous to his untimely passing. They are placing importance on the albums because of who he was and what he had achieved in his life, not because they are genuine classics or even very good albums.
If AEOM had been made by an unknown New York emcee still alive today it would have received a below average review that remains today and wouldn’t have benefited from revisionalism. This is not to say that currently it is not an important album, it's just that it's nothing particularly special.
In all fairness, Death Row could release an album with twenty tracks of Tupac taking a shit and it would still go multi platinum and would still be respected by hardcore Tupac fans who are so enamoured with him as an individual they think it's a quality album. That is a sad thing for hip hop.
Is the poll who has accomlished more in their career or who is the greatest MC?
Becuause if so... Where is Dre and Joey Simmonds?
It is not even worth debating with you. Your opinions are so blinkered and are full of hate. You are on the complete opposite end of the scale from a dickrider, ie. a hater.
AEOM is a good album, not classic, but it had a lot of mainstream success and the singles from that album receive heavy play at a party. If you are not going to evaluate sensibly and instead just to provoke with answers that are incredibly dumb, why bother reply. I think you just like an argument.
Oh yeah. Why don't you log in as your old account? Because you said you wouldn't come back?
Okay, whatever, in your opinion pac ain't the greatest. Your opinion doesn't represent the majority. This is why 2Pac has came in at #1 on 2 greatest mc's countdowns previously. Like I said before, he has heavy influence, heavy impact, the greatest body of work meaning the most quality in his quantity, greatest work ethic in releasing 4 classics back to back, he has the most appeal, is still relevant 10 years after his passing, he had enough charisma to touch millions of people around the world with his music, which has held him in high regards after his death as a martyr, he had originality, he's probably the most diverse mc, has the skills to have a concept on each and every song he's made. The man chose not to use too much figurative language and a beat around the bush style. He's the only mc that can get away with bold direct delivery and be considered a goat. Imagine if he used figurative language.
2Pac embodies what every rapper is trying to be now. He was talking about things that rappers are just now starting to talk about. Even the MTV team would allude to this. Why don't you hop off mine and go to MTV Overdrive and check it out? He's beyond this world. Hate on hater.
Exactly. They may have not been accepted by the people in the NY industry such as with radio dj's, but they were embraced by the consumers on the eastcoasts. One of the purposes of radio is to get people locally engaged onto certain artists. Radio is just an intermediary to get people intuned to upcoming artists and or new songs. Well, guess what the people of the east caught on to Dre & Snoop themselves. Being westcoasts was outkasted by the NY industry for some time, but the streets saw the westcoasts as the thing to be for a time period. Their influence grew heavy on the east. If the people on the east didn't embrace them just as the NY radio stations were doing, the success of Dre & Snoop would've been as sweet.
Jadakiss can't sell records because he lacks in the music department, but he's known nationwide. If Jadakiss was to be big in LA regions only, I bet you he would not be known nationwide like so many local artists that are big outside of New York. So this goes to show you how NY has a hand in things. B.I.G, Jay-Z, & 50 Cent have all made music that has appealed, but if they sucked, they wouldn't be huge worldwide, but people would have at least heard of them nationwide.
As for Ludacris' comment, you go do your own research. I'm not going to give you a plate that's already made. You go serve your ownself.
NY assisted in Nelly's success because NY dj's embraced his records and he was often played on NY radio. If B.I.G. & Jay-Z was from any region in the U.S. apart from the NY region, I guarantee you that there success would not be the same. I don't care how you want to argue that. If Biggie & Jay-Z was from the south or the westcoasts, there buzz would not be the same as the dj's in NY gave them and it would've resulted in the sales. NY has played a big part in assisting those 2 men in being highly regarded. That's a fact and that's the point I was trying to make. Argue as much as you want.
My friend, just because you are using more in-depth vocabulary as you claim doesn't mean you are more articulate. You need to stop with that perception immediately because I can do the same thing. This is not an english paper. The last thing I care about on a forum is spellings. Obviously you do because you have nothing better to do with yourself. Your being looked at as a jackass and the some of the people of the forum are starting to take notice of this. You are the biggest joke in here. And I'm not insulting you, I'm telling you like how it is.
Um, sorry to break it down to you, but going gold back in that time wasn't seen as a failure. Not many artists were going platinum back in the mid-90s era. Only few like Dre & Snoop for instance. Not too many NY artists in that time were going platinum like years afterwards. It wasn't really until 96 up until the early 2000s that various rap artists were going platinum. So where does that leave you?
I can make the same argument for you also. How can you argue about something you don't know about and haven't researched?
Yeah, but is Party N Bullshit a particular type of track for females? If that was one of his first singles instead of Big Poppa or something, would he have had that smooth player image that won and or gained him so much appeal?
Do you even remember that time period in hip hop? Do you know what NY artists at the time were doing? Around that time period, most eastcoasts mc's were trying to appeal to the streets and gain street credit with the tough guys and drug dealers that were on the streets back then. This is what most NY artists at the time were trying to do. 2Pac on the other hand was trying to appeal to the ladies with the more sensitive topics. I never once said 2Pac invented rap singles for the ladies, you dimwit.
Incase you forgot or were'nt born, Nas, Wu-Tang, Onyx, Das EFX, and so many artists from NY back then were trying to portray the most hardcore image ever and or win the hood over. Not to mention, these guys were not selling huge amount of records also. When 2Pac saw B.I.G. going that route, 2Pac told Biggie to follow his format and try to win appeal with the ladies and in turn the men would follow. And look what happened. Did B.I.G. not succeed? Did his singles not succeed? Was he not seen as the man who brought NY back? Did he not sell more than any artists on the east back then?
How do you spell neighborhood wrong? neighbourhood-Like WTF? If you wanna be an English teacher, you can't at least proofread your ownself.:laugh: I don't claim to be an elitist or intellect as you claim, so I don't have to use any spellcheck or even have to check my grammar. But so far, you have sonned yourself.
Of course, 2Pac had more influence on B.I.G than cats in his neighborhood that he was around. 2Pac was a known artists in the industry that took him under his wing directly 2Pac was giving the man firsthand lectures about the industry. And why wouldn't anyone follow his blueprint? Was he not making singles that were hitting the top of the charts successfully? You are trying to argue that 2pac did not have influence on B.I.G. and his image when B.I.G. himself never denied this when asked.
You've been owned. You have nothing else to say. I'm talking about the Ready 2 Die period and you come in with Life After Death. You are sad. You have no more argument.
Okay, but did 2Pac not later on say that he doesn't want to be categorized in any category? He realized he was more than a guy you put in a box and his style reflected this that very same year. You're an official halfwit.
I want you to name all his weak songs, especially his posthumous songs. That's if you listened long enough to rememeber the titles of the tracks. And you didn't answer my question I posed to you earlier. I wanna know who your Goat is and or your top 5.
And like I said earlier, it's obvious you don't listen to music. Anyone that can sit up here and say 2Pac does not have a classic in his body of work deserves to be chastised for trying to hate on the man. It's obvious you are some phony that is in here trying to convince everyone not to like 2pac like the way you don't like him. I know your tactics, you are just trying to play it safe with all that I appreciate what he's done bullshit. I'd appreciate it if you came out of your cowardly shell you are hiding under and straightforwardly said "I don't like 2Pac and 2Pac is wack" because that's where you are going.
Go listen to some Papoose & Red Cafe mixtapes if you want lyrics. Similes are the only thing that seems to sooth your feet, so go listen to 8 minutes of freestyle from your local bootlegger. I listen to 2Pac when I want to hear hip hop music. You feel that hip hop is revolved around lyrics only and until you learn otherwise, you can never fully appreciate the art form to the fullest.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was a spelling bee contest. But even if this was a spelling bee contest, you spelled neighborhood incorrectly. And I'm not even the one trippin off spelling and grammar.:laugh:
No, you're a critique for finding so many faults in something. That's all you did when listening to those albums.
The definition of critic:
One who tends to make harsh or carping judgments; a faultfinder.
You fit that description. Learn to know yourself.
Who said it was poll conducted by any group of people? The poll could've came from members of a certain type of hip hop forum. Stop assuming and making yourself look ridiculous.
Consumers labeled it a classic. And to 2Pac himself it was a classic. In a 1995 movie based in NY, 2Pac was being debated as being one of the best mc's around along with Nas. So this shows how much impact he was having even when he was alive. Even on the streets of where I live, people use to carry around their radio with matw as one of the tapes in their cassettes.
You seem to have so much faith in publications. The Sources opinion does not always represent the listeners. And as you can see, the sources opinion isn't always correct, as since they went back and rerated it.
Look at this creton talking from his rear end. Oh so now the masses classified Lil Kim's album as a classic. Do you even know what I'm talking about when I say masses? When I say masses I mean the consumers. The hundreds to thousands of fans that go out and support the albums is what I'm speaking. Not the 3-10 people that work at a magazine publication and decide who's music is worthy or not. And if you know publications aren't always correct, then how the hell can you sit up here and make it seem as if an artists benefitting from revision from a magazine is a fraud or something?
Haha, I have no problems with the vocab. you are using. You may think it's something special, but I have no gripes with the english language at all. You on the otherhand have probably have had some type of insecurity with the english language, therefore feeling the need to come to a hip hop forum and trying to display some intellect. You hide behind so called massive vocabulary because you know your argument is weak with more common words because really you aren't impressing me and really you haven't said anything of any relevance where you should earn points with me. My convictions remain, while you keep trying to throw punches that's not even making contact.
[/QUOTE]
A man/woman full of him/herself that thinks he/she knows it all. A person of inaccuracy and misinformation is my assessment of you. A person who feels their vocabulary is an intimidation into some type of submission. My conclusion is you are insecure about something.
2Pac embodies what every rapper is trying to be now. He was talking about things that rappers are just now starting to talk about. Even the MTV team would allude to this. Why don't you hop off mine and go to MTV Overdrive and check it out? He's beyond this world. Hate on hater.
Exactly. They may have not been accepted by the people in the NY industry such as with radio dj's, but they were embraced by the consumers on the eastcoasts. One of the purposes of radio is to get people locally engaged onto certain artists. Radio is just an intermediary to get people intuned to upcoming artists and or new songs. Well, guess what the people of the east caught on to Dre & Snoop themselves. Being westcoasts was outkasted by the NY industry for some time, but the streets saw the westcoasts as the thing to be for a time period. Their influence grew heavy on the east. If the people on the east didn't embrace them just as the NY radio stations were doing, the success of Dre & Snoop would've been as sweet.
Jadakiss can't sell records because he lacks in the music department, but he's known nationwide. If Jadakiss was to be big in LA regions only, I bet you he would not be known nationwide like so many local artists that are big outside of New York. So this goes to show you how NY has a hand in things. B.I.G, Jay-Z, & 50 Cent have all made music that has appealed, but if they sucked, they wouldn't be huge worldwide, but people would have at least heard of them nationwide.
As for Ludacris' comment, you go do your own research. I'm not going to give you a plate that's already made. You go serve your ownself.
NY assisted in Nelly's success because NY dj's embraced his records and he was often played on NY radio. If B.I.G. & Jay-Z was from any region in the U.S. apart from the NY region, I guarantee you that there success would not be the same. I don't care how you want to argue that. If Biggie & Jay-Z was from the south or the westcoasts, there buzz would not be the same as the dj's in NY gave them and it would've resulted in the sales. NY has played a big part in assisting those 2 men in being highly regarded. That's a fact and that's the point I was trying to make. Argue as much as you want.
My friend, just because you are using more in-depth vocabulary as you claim doesn't mean you are more articulate. You need to stop with that perception immediately because I can do the same thing. This is not an english paper. The last thing I care about on a forum is spellings. Obviously you do because you have nothing better to do with yourself. Your being looked at as a jackass and the some of the people of the forum are starting to take notice of this. You are the biggest joke in here. And I'm not insulting you, I'm telling you like how it is.
Um, sorry to break it down to you, but going gold back in that time wasn't seen as a failure. Not many artists were going platinum back in the mid-90s era. Only few like Dre & Snoop for instance. Not too many NY artists in that time were going platinum like years afterwards. It wasn't really until 96 up until the early 2000s that various rap artists were going platinum. So where does that leave you?
I can make the same argument for you also. How can you argue about something you don't know about and haven't researched?
Yeah, but is Party N Bullshit a particular type of track for females? If that was one of his first singles instead of Big Poppa or something, would he have had that smooth player image that won and or gained him so much appeal?
Do you even remember that time period in hip hop? Do you know what NY artists at the time were doing? Around that time period, most eastcoasts mc's were trying to appeal to the streets and gain street credit with the tough guys and drug dealers that were on the streets back then. This is what most NY artists at the time were trying to do. 2Pac on the other hand was trying to appeal to the ladies with the more sensitive topics. I never once said 2Pac invented rap singles for the ladies, you dimwit.
Incase you forgot or were'nt born, Nas, Wu-Tang, Onyx, Das EFX, and so many artists from NY back then were trying to portray the most hardcore image ever and or win the hood over. Not to mention, these guys were not selling huge amount of records also. When 2Pac saw B.I.G. going that route, 2Pac told Biggie to follow his format and try to win appeal with the ladies and in turn the men would follow. And look what happened. Did B.I.G. not succeed? Did his singles not succeed? Was he not seen as the man who brought NY back? Did he not sell more than any artists on the east back then?
How do you spell neighborhood wrong? neighbourhood-Like WTF? If you wanna be an English teacher, you can't at least proofread your ownself.:laugh: I don't claim to be an elitist or intellect as you claim, so I don't have to use any spellcheck or even have to check my grammar. But so far, you have sonned yourself.
Of course, 2Pac had more influence on B.I.G than cats in his neighborhood that he was around. 2Pac was a known artists in the industry that took him under his wing directly 2Pac was giving the man firsthand lectures about the industry. And why wouldn't anyone follow his blueprint? Was he not making singles that were hitting the top of the charts successfully? You are trying to argue that 2pac did not have influence on B.I.G. and his image when B.I.G. himself never denied this when asked.
You've been owned. You have nothing else to say. I'm talking about the Ready 2 Die period and you come in with Life After Death. You are sad. You have no more argument.
Okay, but did 2Pac not later on say that he doesn't want to be categorized in any category? He realized he was more than a guy you put in a box and his style reflected this that very same year. You're an official halfwit.
I want you to name all his weak songs, especially his posthumous songs. That's if you listened long enough to rememeber the titles of the tracks. And you didn't answer my question I posed to you earlier. I wanna know who your Goat is and or your top 5.
And like I said earlier, it's obvious you don't listen to music. Anyone that can sit up here and say 2Pac does not have a classic in his body of work deserves to be chastised for trying to hate on the man. It's obvious you are some phony that is in here trying to convince everyone not to like 2pac like the way you don't like him. I know your tactics, you are just trying to play it safe with all that I appreciate what he's done bullshit. I'd appreciate it if you came out of your cowardly shell you are hiding under and straightforwardly said "I don't like 2Pac and 2Pac is wack" because that's where you are going.
Go listen to some Papoose & Red Cafe mixtapes if you want lyrics. Similes are the only thing that seems to sooth your feet, so go listen to 8 minutes of freestyle from your local bootlegger. I listen to 2Pac when I want to hear hip hop music. You feel that hip hop is revolved around lyrics only and until you learn otherwise, you can never fully appreciate the art form to the fullest.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was a spelling bee contest. But even if this was a spelling bee contest, you spelled neighborhood incorrectly. And I'm not even the one trippin off spelling and grammar.:laugh:
No, you're a critique for finding so many faults in something. That's all you did when listening to those albums.
The definition of critic:
One who tends to make harsh or carping judgments; a faultfinder.
You fit that description. Learn to know yourself.
Who said it was poll conducted by any group of people? The poll could've came from members of a certain type of hip hop forum. Stop assuming and making yourself look ridiculous.
Consumers labeled it a classic. And to 2Pac himself it was a classic. In a 1995 movie based in NY, 2Pac was being debated as being one of the best mc's around along with Nas. So this shows how much impact he was having even when he was alive. Even on the streets of where I live, people use to carry around their radio with matw as one of the tapes in their cassettes.
You seem to have so much faith in publications. The Sources opinion does not always represent the listeners. And as you can see, the sources opinion isn't always correct, as since they went back and rerated it.
Look at this creton talking from his rear end. Oh so now the masses classified Lil Kim's album as a classic. Do you even know what I'm talking about when I say masses? When I say masses I mean the consumers. The hundreds to thousands of fans that go out and support the albums is what I'm speaking. Not the 3-10 people that work at a magazine publication and decide who's music is worthy or not. And if you know publications aren't always correct, then how the hell can you sit up here and make it seem as if an artists benefitting from revision from a magazine is a fraud or something?
Haha, I have no problems with the vocab. you are using. You may think it's something special, but I have no gripes with the english language at all. You on the otherhand have probably have had some type of insecurity with the english language, therefore feeling the need to come to a hip hop forum and trying to display some intellect. You hide behind so called massive vocabulary because you know your argument is weak with more common words because really you aren't impressing me and really you haven't said anything of any relevance where you should earn points with me. My convictions remain, while you keep trying to throw punches that's not even making contact.
[/QUOTE]
A man/woman full of him/herself that thinks he/she knows it all. A person of inaccuracy and misinformation is my assessment of you. A person who feels their vocabulary is an intimidation into some type of submission. My conclusion is you are insecure about something.
This went from a good discussion to stupid ass who is better on the net type shit. If you are trying to prove your point and have to try to make fun of the other person to get the upper hand what you're saying must hold no weight.
By the way the whole spelling thing is stupid but Neighbourhood can be spelt like that, how would they say, they spell it like that across the pond, I think. Like how they spell color, colour. Not sure if he is English but yeah.
By the way the whole spelling thing is stupid but Neighbourhood can be spelt like that, how would they say, they spell it like that across the pond, I think. Like how they spell color, colour. Not sure if he is English but yeah.
My conclusion...that was all a bunch of tedious tripe and you have once again not backed up your points with any legitimate sources. I refuse to debate with someone who makes up shit and then can't even be assed to offer evidence for points he claims is true.
Quite frankly I have better things to do with my time...whether you agree or disagree with me, it is quite obvious I have formed the better argument, been more articulate throughout the discussion and tried to back my points up as thoroughly as I can.
It's obvious your not going to change your mind and it seems to me as if there isn't a mainstream rap album in existance you don't rate below good / very good / classic. Thus in this situation I will be the bigger man and take the high road because people are getting sick to death with this rigmarole of repetition....I'll leave viewers of this thread with one final thought...
To me a classic album must be flawless, it is ridiculous to say that every track on MATW, AEOM and the 7 Day Theory are flawless and if you genuinely think that your just blinkered by 2Pac the individual without taking into account the actual quality of his work....I'll even cut you some slack.....
I'll let you think 2 Pac has never rapped a below par line in his life and is completely original. However to say every 2Pac album has great production or that any track the Outlawz or the plethora of other utterly garbage second rate guest appearances that feature on Pac's album contributes to making an even very good body of work it goes to show you truely have no conception of what goes into making a classic album.
done.
Quite frankly I have better things to do with my time...whether you agree or disagree with me, it is quite obvious I have formed the better argument, been more articulate throughout the discussion and tried to back my points up as thoroughly as I can.
It's obvious your not going to change your mind and it seems to me as if there isn't a mainstream rap album in existance you don't rate below good / very good / classic. Thus in this situation I will be the bigger man and take the high road because people are getting sick to death with this rigmarole of repetition....I'll leave viewers of this thread with one final thought...
To me a classic album must be flawless, it is ridiculous to say that every track on MATW, AEOM and the 7 Day Theory are flawless and if you genuinely think that your just blinkered by 2Pac the individual without taking into account the actual quality of his work....I'll even cut you some slack.....
I'll let you think 2 Pac has never rapped a below par line in his life and is completely original. However to say every 2Pac album has great production or that any track the Outlawz or the plethora of other utterly garbage second rate guest appearances that feature on Pac's album contributes to making an even very good body of work it goes to show you truely have no conception of what goes into making a classic album.
done.
I still find it unbelievable that in labelling 2Pac as probably being the greatest of all time due to his achievements and importance, acknowledging his contribution to a culture and music genre, praising S4MN to an extremis and admitting MATW is a good album I get labelled a hater just because I don't think he is anything special as an emcee or ever made a classic album.
*Raises and eyebrow with a confused look on his face*
Oh well
*Raises and eyebrow with a confused look on his face*
Oh well
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