And MTV's Greatest MC of All Time Is...

[albohemia]

My two cents: NaS

Without wishing to turn this into another monotonous Stillmatic appreciation thread, the trouble with Nas is that he can continue to drop clearly average albums right up until the day he retires and due to the fact he was responsible for Illmatic, albeit twelve years ago exactly in four days time, it is unlikely any self respecting fan of hip hop would remove him from their list of top five rappers.

His last few albums have been disappointing and he has made one truly abhorrent album along with a string of average outings yet he will always have ’the Illmatic factor’ ie- lauded for making a classic debut album irregardless of consistancy in terms of quality since.

He is another rapper who is overrated.

 

[Pittsey]

My two cents: NaS

Without wishing to turn this into another monotonous Stillmatic appreciation thread, the trouble with Nas is that he can continue to drop clearly average albums right up until the day he retires and due to the fact he was responsible for Illmatic, albeit twelve years ago exactly in four days time, it is unlikely any self respecting fan of hip hop would remove him from their list of top five rappers. His last few albums have been disappointing and he has made one truly abhorrent album along with a string of average outings yet he will always have ’the Illmatic factor’ ie- lauded for making a classic debut album irregardless of what he has achieved since.

He is in my top 5 lyricists, and he makes decent albums. But he isn't in my top 5 rappers.


That's the problem with opinions, we all have them, and they all differ.


There are far more talented people ommited from that list. Does LL Cool J deserve to come above Big Pun?

 

[Duke]

^ No, not as a MC. Thats where MTV went wrong, they said MC's but they just meant rappers liked and respected overall.

 

[albohemia]

There are far more talented people ommited from that list. Does LL Cool J deserve to come above Big Pun?

In terms of career accomplishments, yes.

 

[Hituup]

I would hesitate to use the word ‘better’ however it must be taken into consideration that Jay Z has had a more prolific career than BIG due to well known fact that CW only dropped two albums whilst he was alive, to compare that body of work to Jigga’s 8 solo studio pieces is foolish in the extremis. Certainly, one would concur with the popular belief that Ready to Die is still the best of all albums in the two catalogues, however there must come a time when rap connoisseurs finally admit that an artist cannot be lauded upon the sole basis of one album. Life After Death was a strong outing but it is far from a classic.

You then go out to change your opinion completely showing you have absolutely no conviction in it anyway....

Okay. From your message, you have just made me more aware to reread the things I write. First off all you need to stop putting words in my mouth. You misquoted me or got someone elses quote mixed up with me or something. Never once did I ask, "Biggie over Jay-Z" or anything like that in any dumbfounded manner. And if I did I never meant to put that Biggie was better than Jay-Z. Because that is not realistic. B.I.G dropped 2 LP's only and left so much to be desired. He has no body of work. That's what I meant to put. It's obvious that Biggie is not better than Jay-Z.

And I disagree with you, no matter how you put it, LAD was a classic as well as all the other albums you've tried to denounce as classics.

The reason Jay Z, Biggie and indeed Tupac can sell as many records as they do is because they do not suffer Jadakiss syndrome and can permeate both coasts with pervading radio play. To say that Ready To Die is a classic because of the ’NY scene’ is in my opinion ridiculous, it’s the one of very few albums in the industry that is held in worldwide universal acclaim. Similarly, how anyone can say the ’NY scene’ has presupposed the success of Jay Z is beyond me when it’s been shown that he sells records on a worldwide basis and is probably the most versatile rapper (business wise) that has lived. Additionally greater arguments could be formed from the Tupac - California association if one were wishing to converse about how regions have assisted rappers to flourish.

I don't quite remember saying that the Biggie & Jay-Z sell records due to their region. I said the reason Jay-Z & Biggie are held in such high regards today is due to their region. If you don't live in the NY area, you won't know what I'm speaking of. NY started hip hop, so yes they have a big influence when it comes to the best mc's. If you live in the NY area, you have dj's such as funk flex & mister cee repeatedly playing their music back to back as if they are the only artists. And this was almost everyday. They try to brainwash the listeners into thinking that nobody is beyond those 2 artists. When Jay-Z sold out MSG Garden, it was announced on NY radio as if he was the new president of the United States. And when it comes to B.I.G., you have Funk Flex & Mister Cee saying things like, "The Notorious B.I.G. is the greatest of all time and I don't care what anybody says, nobody dead or alive can touch B.I.G.". So please don't come up here and put words in my mouth. If you want to sound intelligent and be an English teacher, do so, but don't make a fool out of yourself. I never once said anything regarding their albums and record sells. Learn how to analyze the correct way.

Absolute Bullshit. The friendship between Biggie and 2Pac has been overly embellished by the media, I’m in no way disputing the fact that they used to ’run together’ but lets not forget, in an early nineties 'highly invigorated' New York rap scene it was not uncommon for aspiring rappers to be brought together by their harmonized love of the art.

Do not be fooled, they were never best friends. Conversely to pronounce that Tupac ’coached and mentored’ Biggie is an obtuse assumption based on nothing but the hearsay of obsessive Tupac fans.

To say that what I'm assuming is obtuse is absolutely obtuse on your behalf to come up here and say that. You said "Based on nothing but the hearsay of 2pac fans". Go listen to the 2pac & Biggie interviews before they passed. B.I.G's concept for his 1st album was a concept that was originally from 2Pac's original MATW's album, but you wouldn't know that because you speak out from your rear end. 2Pac was there when Biggie was making his first album and 2Pac told him the formula to success and Biggie took the formula and created Big Poppa" B.I.G. himself never even denied this. In fact, Go to MTVnews.com and read the discussion that Sway and the other members at the round table were having and Sway himself makes reference to this.

There is nothing similar about the style and delivery of either artist; Biggie has always been distinctly New York - many old New York heads will still remember him as a teen on the corners in Brooklyn spitting off the top of his dome…just because 2Pac achieved some success before Biggie in no way means he influenced him to any degree and to say that he owes his career success to Tupac just makes me pity your unbelievably misguided perception of the way in which both artists ’came up’ by themselves.

Who said anything about style & delivery? You see this is what I talk about when I say do your research before hopping on your keyboard. Nobody is talking about skills, rhymes, flow, or any of the foolishness you mentioned above. When 2Pac was talking about how he influenced Biggie, he was talking in the form of song concepts and album concepts. So what the hell are you talking about? When Biggie was making songs for the streets and trying to have appeal over there, did 2Pac not say "Biggie rap for the b***hes". Did he not switch his style to "Party N Bullshit" to "Big Poppa". Did B.I.G. deny this when asked about this? You tell me who has the misguided perception now?

To say that Tupac fathered any New York artist is unbelievably foolish when it is well known that Pac himself had two main sources of influence which are both easy to hear throughout the course of his work. Scarface and Ice Cube…both artists whom incidentally sound nothing like anyone on the Eastcoast, now compare that to the style of Biggie and Jay Z…which are as I alluded to earlier both distinct NY styles.

2Pac's influences came from Rakim, Public Enemy, LL Cool J, and Daddy Kane? Once again you are talking about style. Did 2Pac ever say he wrote Biggie's rhymes? 2Pac fathered the man. B.I.G. was calling himself a thug, wearing bandanas, screaming thug life and I wanna be westide all on and around the time of his first lp. One of pac's rhymes-"To all my niggaz in the pen, here we go again, ain't nothing separating us from my mack 10." Biggie's rhyme on "Machine Gun Funk"-"16 shots to my niggas in the pen, until we mtherfucking meet again." Are you telling me that 2pac had no influence on B.I.G.'s writing. And as for concept, where do you think this I'm ready for death-F**k the world-I Need 2 Get Paid-Me & My moms got love and drame- concept of R2D came from. You can't deny that Biggie hanging around 2Pac & Thug Life helped upbring B.I.G. and helped make him who he was and in then turned that same help he received onto Jay-Z. This is what I mean when I say Pac fathered these NY greats.

Moreover, anyone with half an ayatollah of hip hop knowledge will understand that the rap topics, style, delivery, general outlook on life, lyrical proficiency and to a lesser extent flow between Tupac and Biggie / Jay Z couldn’t be more different. Feel free to request an elaboration should you not be clear about this.

Once again you are stuck on flow and skills. I don't even know if I should address this. First of all, 2Pac ain't a man with one flow, he's a man of many. His flow on Hail Mary wasn't the same flow he was using on Ambitionz Az A Ridah. His Flow on Againsts All Odds & HitemUp was not the same flow he used on Keep Ya Hed Up. The Flow he used on Brenda's Got A Baby was not the same flow he used on Str8 Ballin. His flow on Street Fame was not the same one he used on Shed So Many tearz.

And your premise for the focal point of discourse here seems to be that anyone who is popular is not overrated. I could name a million popular artists who are overrated, many of whom posthumously earn more than the legacy of Tupac and have a much bigger fan base.. Statues, movies and books merely mean his memory is marketable. A testament to his legacy? Of course. But overrated all the same.

2pac is not the only dead mc. There are plenty of rappers/mc's who are no longer with us. He gets the most recognition because he was obviously special, which you and so many others translate as overrated. This man was around for about 5 years and has done more than some people have done in their whole lifetime. 2Pac was touching people before his death. Ask Eminem. Most people didn't start revealing these things until he died, but he was helping plenty of women and so many people during his lifetime. You seem to think this man died and all of a sudden got fans when the man sold about 7 million copies of his album before his death.

As the old adage goes 'everyone is entitled to their own opinion' the beauty of music is that there is no right or wrong opinion thus to chastise someone because they don’t share the same opinion of Tupac as you do is remarkably immature. Perhaps you should consider the more realistic idea that perhaps the said viewpoint has not been unduly influences by the post 1996 2Pac media overkill, rose colour glasses of prominent cultural activists and the multitude of fans who, it’s sad to say, were never aware of him until after his untimely passing. To insinuate that because someone does not agree with a majority they are ‘missing some pieces to a puzzle’ is not only non democratic but also stands against everything Pac himself stood for.

So what are you saying? Is 2Pac less of an artists because you claim that his fanbase didn't come until his death. It means that the people caught onto something that they didn't realize was there before. If he stayed alive, I'm sure his fanbase would've been even bigger and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. The man predicted his own death at an early stage, wanted to change the world, starred in movies, was the son of a black panther, born in prison, had the first ever hip hop double album, sold millions of records and changed the landscape of hip hop forever, but yet he's overrated because he's reached a certain height. Why can't you just accept the fact that the man has made a connection with millions of people. It doesn't matter if he had to die before doing so, the point is he's recognized and he gives people chills through his music.

First of all if you going to use the word ‘certified’ I sincerely hope your not using it on the basis of any review given in the Source, the Vibe or XXL.

Thug Life is actually a below par album that like every other 2Pac album has benefited from revisionalism, made by anyone other than 2Pac I can guarantee you wouldn’t even remember the name of the work. Me Against the World is a good album but not flawless, All Eyez On Me is unfortunately one of the most overrated rap albums ever..it’s saturated with inconsistent quality, there are some truly excellent stand alone tracks but placed amongst a multitude of very weak tracks they lose significance to the album. The production is muddled, Pac has been lyrically stronger and once again the guest appearances are for the most part abhorrent with the notable exception of Kurupt, Snoop and a few others. The 7 Day Theory suffers from many of the same problems

Don’t even get me started on the tripe that has dropped since his death. Do you think anyone would buy the garbage that was UTEOT had it not been a 2pac release? this highlights my point exactly.

Wow, Thug Life a below par album. You really showed me your taste in music. Earlier you even said LAD wasn't a classic. It's obvious you have poor taste in music. And yes, I feel the need to chastise you for that. Because someone with poor judging skills like you shouldn't even listen to music, yet alone critique it. Anyone that knows hip hop & 2pac's music knows that Thug Life contained some of Pac's greatest songs from Str8 Ballin, Under Pressure, Bury Me A G, Pour Out A Lil Liquour, etc. End of conversation right there. Okay, what else, you don't like Aeom, Matw isn't flawless to you, as if a flawless hip hop lp exists. And now 7 day theory has the same problems aeom has. You are the type of music fan that goes around looking for faults in everything. You don't know how to appreciate good music. Jay-Z said it best-"Do You fools listen to music or do you just skim through it. You have so many judgements, but yet you have never put an album.

Your just a critic, your not a music fan. And no, I don't go according to what any reviews or what anyone says, I go by my own judgements. And when I say certified, I go according to what the people say. I've met 100's-thousand people on the streets and from the internet that have rated all of pac's top 3 albums classics. I actually listen to music. Let me guess your one of those fans that hate the Massacre with a passion also, correct?

People fail to understand that just because these albums are uber popular and have defined a genre of music does not make them classics. I am in no way disputing the work ethic of 2pac or his importance to rap music in general but better albums have been made by artists who are less significant to the culture which you wouldn’t listen to twice…2 Pac like most great artists who pass before their time have benefited from revisionalism. Why do you think that when originally released, AEOM and the 7 Day Theory garnered only average reviews by well respected Hip Hop magazines? Those same magazines that return to them five years after they have been made and label them classics? Quite simply, only because he is 2Pac.

Even though, you have no real proof that magazines re-rate 2pac albums and give them higher ratings because of who he is, I'll let you believe what you want to believe. The reason pac's albums are re-rated because they were overlooked and didn't get their deserving score like so many other albums around that time. 2Pac's music actually passed the test of time, which is why they go back and give it better ratings. Don't you think 2Pac's albums get rerated to higher scores because they were actually better than originally thought of? Back in those days, you had plenty of artists dropping classic albums all over the place. There were so many good albums back then, but all of them couldn't get 5 mics, even though back then, some fans knew an album was a 5 mic classic. I wouldn't be surprised if some of Mobb Deep's & Wu-Tangs earlier albums were given average reviews also. And I wouldn't be surprised if they went back and gave the albums higher scores, if they haven't already done so. So what you're saying about 2Pac albums being re-rated and given a higher score because of who he is now is absurd because I know for sure that plenty of albums have been rerated and given higher ratings. And btw, 7 Day Theory was always seen as a classic according to many reviews and out of all the classic lp's that came out in 1995, MATW was up for a grammy award for best rap or hip hop album. Shows how much you know.

And if you want to talk about posthumous albums, then stop being so closed minded. The albums are posthumous for crying out loud. We know that pac does not have control of the final results of his after albums, but almost all of his posthumous lp's with the exception of 1 are solid and decent enough to be given the title of classic. But I'm sure you are too much of a critic to see that. The man has about 30 songs on an album and most of the songs that are descent on albums like Better Dayz & Until The End Of Time outweigh the weaker tracks.

I believe posthumous songs such as "Who Do You Believe In", "Fortune & Fame", "Dear Mr. President", "Letter 2 My Unborn", and "High Speeds" are some of 2Pac's best songs ever and you can't deny that. Alot of his greater songs have come out after his death, which can also explain his fanbase growing.

The fact that his posthumous albums are better and are on par with some of today's albums from current artists shows that he was truely ahead of his time. You called UTEOT garbage, but I know plenty of people that'll take that album over other double albums such as "Streets Disciple" & "The BluePrint 2"

It is interesting to note, that Tupac’s best album S4MN you haven’t even mentioned here. No other 2Pac album is more cohesive, to the point, fuelled with raw and genuine emotion, engaging to the listener or lyrically / technically proficient than this album.


The biggest problem I have as a fan of genuinely good hip hop and 2Pac is not the fact AEOM and the 7 Day Theory are unduly lauded, it’s that S4MN seems to have been forgotten about...why?....
mainly because the style / tone of the album is perceived as being more old school - in direct contention with the majority of Pac’s fifteen to twenty five year old fan base that have grew up listening to a style more similar to that exhibited on Pac’s final two albums and subsequent drivel of posthumous releases.

Fine. That's your opinion. Imo, Thug Life is his best lp. Imo, S4MN did not pass the test of time to a certain degree even though some of pac's great songs are on that album. I don't think the songs on that album can compare to the material that came after that.


RANT
Why come on a hip hop message board and try to display yourself as a genious when in reality you are probably just some dirtbag that is hiding in the trenches. No offense, I respect you and all, but this is a hip hop message board. No need to display yourself as a know it all. All you've done is come onto this topic and misquote me. I want you to reread everything I said and you'll see how much of a fool you end up looking.

Not to mention, you are one of the most misinformed people I've ever came in contact with over the internet. Not only are you misguided but you have no true knowledge of what you sit on your computer and type. I suggest you do more research. You feel because you write sophisticated that you are an intellect, but I just pulled out your card.

 

[HiGhTillDeaTH]

this might just be the greatest discussion i have seen on here in a long long while......

There are too many things too look at when u are determining the GOAT. People have all different persepctives (unless they have been brainwashed), all different tastes, different biases. People like different sounds and consider some elements of what we call "rap music" more important than others.

Who would u rather hear an unreleased song from?
Big
Jay
Pac

 

[Bobby Sands]

Does anyone consider Big Pun.I know he had only one album released while he was alive but for me he is the best lyricist ever.

 

[albohemia]

B.I.G dropped 2 LP's only and left so much to be desired. He has no body of work. That's what I meant to put. It's obvious that Biggie is not better than Jay-Z.

And I disagree with you, no matter how you put it, LAD was a classic as well as all the other albums you've tried to denounce as classics.

I’m glad you concur with me, although I never expressly stated Jay Z is / was better than Biggie, I merely asserted that if one was to have a logical discussion about comparability between the two it should be a pre requisite that the catalogues of both rappers are taken into consideration.

I don't quite remember saying that the Biggie & Jay-Z sell records due to their region. I said the reason Jay-Z & Biggie are held in such high regards today is due to their region. If you don't live in the NY area, you won't know what I'm speaking of. NY started hip hop, so yes they have a big influence when it comes to the best mc's. If you live in the NY area, you have dj's such as funk flex & mister cee repeatedly playing their music back to back as if they are the only artists. And this was almost everyday. They try to brainwash the listeners into thinking that nobody is beyond those 2 artists. When Jay-Z sold out MSG Garden, it was announced on NY radio as if he was the new president of the United States. And when it comes to B.I.G., you have Funk Flex & Mister Cee saying things like, "The Notorious B.I.G. is the greatest of all time and I don't care what anybody says, nobody dead or alive can touch B.I.G.". So please don't come up here and put words in my mouth. If you want to sound intelligent and be an English teacher, do so, but don't make a fool out of yourself. I never once said anything regarding their albums and record sells. Learn how to analyze the correct way.

Once again I believe you have misinterpreted the point I was attempting to make. One need only look at the popularity of the South to demonstrate regions assist rappers to flourish all the time, if you venture to St. Louis a large proportion of dj’s in the locale will be firm proponents of Nelly in the same way that Virginia will always support Missy / Pharrell Williams etc..

you consistently refer to ‘NY radio’ as if it is some kind of authoritarian voice on Hip Hop and acts in a cult like way to indoctrinate vulnerable hip hop fans...in reality Biggie and Jay Z are held in high regard by the majority of mainstream rap connoisseurs the world over. The fact they hail from New York, the birthplace of the cultural revolution known as hip hop is irrelevant to the regard they are held in.

Before accusing me of attempting to sound like a teacher, perhaps it would be advantageous on your behalf to stop arrogantly informing prospective thread contributers you will ’school them’ before even listening to their points.

To say that what I'm assuming is obtuse is absolutely obtuse on your behalf to come up here and say that. You said "Based on nothing but the hearsay of 2pac fans". Go listen to the 2pac & Biggie interviews before they passed. B.I.G's concept for his 1st album was a concept that was originally from 2Pac's original MATW's album, but you wouldn't know that because you speak out from your rear end.

Very intellectual articulation but it might be embarrassing for you to learn that the concept of B.I.G’s album isn’t original regardless of where he derived the idea from I.e- NY freshness (1988) incidentally they were from Brooklyn. Oh dear.

2Pac was there when Biggie was making his first album and 2Pac told him the formula to success and Biggie took the formula and created Big Poppa" B.I.G. himself never even denied this. In fact, Go to MTVnews.com and read the discussion that Sway and the other members at the round table were having and Sway himself makes reference to this.

So B.I.G is successful because 2Pac gave him the secret formula to hip hop achievement? A formula that could not be reciprocated by the Outlawz, Stretch or any of the hundred other rapper(s) that he shared a closer friendship than Biggie with? Perhaps he also made Biggie a better lyricist than even he? Gave Puff money to start up Badboy and single handidly ghost wrote Biggie’s entire catalogue whilst simultaneously beefing with him?…then again perhaps pigs fly and you’ve become a victim of a Death Row publicist. Chill out on the koolaid.

When 2Pac was talking about how he influenced Biggie, he was talking in the form of song concepts and album concepts. So what the hell are you talking about? When Biggie was making songs for the streets and trying to have appeal over there, did 2Pac not say "Biggie rap for the b***hes". Did he not switch his style to "Party N Bullshit" to "Big Poppa". Did B.I.G. deny this when asked about this? You tell me who has the misguided perception now?

Apart from the knavish MATW example you cited earlier, what other concepts did 2Pac give Biggie? More to the point, what original concepts did 2Pac construct during his time as an emcee? Indeed, he might have pioneered a few concepts but he has created very few that did not precede him already. Additionally it might be interesting, if not a little embarrassing for you to learn that in a poll conducted by Hot 97 In February 1999 ‘Party N’ Bullshit’ was cited as the one Biggie song with most heterogeneous appeal, but then perhaps that was New York radio attempting to brainwash people again? Eh?

Once again you are talking about style. Did 2Pac ever say he wrote Biggie's rhymes? 2Pac fathered the man. B.I.G. was calling himself a thug, wearing bandanas, screaming thug life and I wanna be westide all on and around the time of his first lp. One of pac's rhymes-"To all my niggaz in the pen, here we go again, ain't nothing separating us from my mack 10." Biggie's rhyme on "Machine Gun Funk"-"16 shots to my niggas in the pen, until we mtherfucking meet again." Are you telling me that 2pac had no influence on B.I.G.'s writing. And as for concept, where do you think this I'm ready for death-F**k the world-I Need 2 Get Paid-Me & My moms got love and drame- concept of R2D came from. You can't deny that Biggie hanging around 2Pac & Thug Life helped upbring B.I.G. and helped make him who he was and in then turned that same help he received onto Jay-Z. This is what I mean when I say Pac fathered these NY greats.

It would appear you need to develop an understanding of the New York rap scene that preceded both artists. First of all, there is an infrequent amount of juvenile brashness featured on Ready to die, none of which is attributed by a 2Pac influence since it is perpetrated in a completely dissimilar ethos.

But for a few shadowy examples 2Pac had no influence on the way in which Biggie wrote his rhymes, that much is evident from the technical proficiency present in Ready To Die; the poetical devices employed and the rhythmic license of delivery.

If your referring to subject matter, up until Ready To Die 2Pac had primarily been a socio political rapper with a rebellious conviction of anti police sentiment, there is very little topic concision prevalent here and furthermore the concepts you highlighted above were all fortified facets in the way many New York rappers had written before 2Pac even dropped his first album let alone MATW, they are ideas / subject matters that were not only prevalent in hip hop but also inherent in black culture way before 2Pac dropped his first album.

Anyone can see that Biggie’s chauvinist, bigoted, graphically narrative, profanity laced and at times shocking raps bared no resemblance to the socially aware well balanced politically minded 2Pac.

Once again you are stuck on flow and skills. I don't even know if I should address this. First of all, 2Pac ain't a man with one flow, he's a man of many. His flow on Hail Mary wasn't the same flow he was using on Ambitionz Az A Ridah. His Flow on Againsts All Odds & HitemUp was not the same flow he used on Keep Ya Hed Up. The Flow he used on Brenda's Got A Baby was not the same flow he used on Str8 Ballin. His flow on Street Fame was not the same one he used on Shed So Many tearz.

Talk about stating the bleeding obvious…and your point is what? I actually mentioned that it is not difficult to observe how different rap topics, style, delivery, general outlook on life and lyrical proficiency between 2Pac and Biggie / Jay Z are. Not just flow, but I guess you conveniently forgot to address those points.

2pac is not the only dead mc. There are plenty of rappers/mc's who are no longer with us. He gets the most recognition because he was obviously special, which you and so many others translate as overrated. This man was around for about 5 years and has done more than some people have done in their whole lifetime. 2Pac was touching people before his death. Ask Eminem. Most people didn't start revealing these things until he died, but he was helping plenty of women and so many people during his lifetime. You seem to think this man died and all of a sudden got fans when the man sold about 7 million copies of his album before his death.

In his death 2Pac has grossed much more than he ever did when he was alive, he has a bigger posthumous fan base than he did whilst he was living. These are cold hard facts, scoff at them as you may. Never once have I insinuated his impact on the culture as a whole is without merit but his body of work is severely overrated.

So what are you saying? Is 2Pac less of an artists because you claim that his fanbase didn't come until his death. It means that the people caught onto something that they didn't realize was there before. If he stayed alive, I'm sure his fanbase would've been even bigger and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. The man predicted his own death at an early stage, wanted to change the world, starred in movies, was the son of a black panther, born in prison, had the first ever hip hop double album, sold millions of records and changed the landscape of hip hop forever, but yet he's overrated because he's reached a certain height. Why can't you just accept the fact that the man has made a connection with millions of people. It doesn't matter if he had to die before doing so, the point is he's recognized and he gives people chills through his music.

Spare me the Tupac history lesson. Once again you have misinterpreted what I have said, the point I was attempting to make is that the body of work he left behind has benefited from revisionalism, AEOM and the 7 Day theory were given below average reviews but yet because in death 2Pac has been emancipated at the martyr of a culture and the poster boy of a music genre, the same magazines that gave those average reviews have labelled them classics. Only because he is 2Pac.

Wow, Thug Life a below par album. You really showed me your taste in music. Earlier you even said LAD wasn't a classic. It's obvious you have poor taste in music.

So because I don’t revere a 2Pac album that is ruined by a plethora of ghastly guest appearances, slapdash production, tiresome themes, lack of cohesive clarity and creativity, played out rhyme schemes, sloppy delivery and countless other elements of musical ingenuity that makes me have bad taste in music? Or should I just bow down and admit because it’s a 2pac release that makes it an automatic classic regardless of it’s obvious faults?

Perhaps you should set your standards higher because it appears to me that if you label an album like Thug Life Vol 1 a near classic your pre requisite for identifying a classic album is severely flawed.

And yes, I feel the need to chastise you for that. Because someone with poor judging skills like you shouldn't even listen to music, yet alone critique it. Anyone that knows hip hop & 2pac's music knows that Thug Life contained some of Pac's greatest songs from Str8 Ballin, Under Pressure, Bury Me A G, Pour Out A Lil Liquour, etc. End of conversation right there. Okay, what else, you don't like Aeom, Matw isn't flawless to you, as if a flawless hip hop lp exists. And now 7 day theory has the same problems aeom has. You are the type of music fan that goes around looking for faults in everything. You don't know how to appreciate good music. Jay-Z said it best-"Do You fools listen to music or do you just skim through it. You have so many judgements, but yet you have never put an album.

Your just a critic, your not a music fan. And no, I don't go according to what any reviews or what anyone says, I go by my own judgements. And when I say certified, I go according to what the people say. I've met 100's-thousand people on the streets and from the internet that have rated all of pac's top 3 albums classics. I actually listen to music. Let me guess your one of those fans that hate the Massacre with a passion also, correct?

50 Cent's The Massacre is generally an abhorrent album and if you view it with any sort of admiration beyond it's three or so above average tracks you really need to readdress how to identify good hip hop in general.

Even though, you have no real proof that magazines re-rate 2pac albums and give them higher ratings because of who he is, I'll let you believe what you want to believe.

The Source, Vibe and XXL have all rerated / romanticised AEOM and the 7 Day theory to a degree that they never originally gave either album credit for upon it’s original release date.

So what you're saying about 2Pac albums being re-rated and given a higher score because of who he is now is absurd because I know for sure that plenty of albums have been rerated and given higher ratings. And btw, 7 Day Theory was always seen as a classic according to many reviews and out of all the classic lp's that came out in 1995, MATW was up for a grammy award for best rap or hip hop album. Shows how much you know.

Just because an album is nominated for a grammy this in no way means it is deserving of being called a classic, similarly just because an album is timeless it can still fall short of being a good release. My point has always been that an album should be addressed upon quality alone, not because of who made the album. If we were to take your point of view, every release by any artist who has passed before his / her time and made an impact on a music genre should have their whole catalogue readdressed so that every album they ever made is held in higher regard than it would ever be deserving of had said artist been alive today. Lennon, Holly, Hendrix, Marley, Kobain etc..

but almost all of his posthumous lp's with the exception of 1 are solid and decent enough to be given the title of classic.

You really have shown yourself to be lacking any sense of non bias hip hop applicable reality / knowledge if you truly believe any posthumous 2Pac release can be considered good, let alone a classic.

You called UTEOT garbage, but I know plenty of people that'll take that album over other double albums such as "Streets Disciple" & "The BluePrint 2"

Are they sectioned in asylums by any chance?

Fine. That's your opinion. Imo, Thug Life is his best lp. Imo, S4MN did not pass the test of time to a certain degree even though some of pac's great songs are on that album. I don't think the songs on that album can compare to the material that came after that.

Again it would appear that you only take ‘standing the test of time’ into consideration when coming to address any form of hip hop. There are plenty of non mainstream hip hop albums that have been forgotten about but are classics, had NaS of fallen into obscurity after he made Illmatic, I'm convinced that very few people would be aware of that album today which goes to falsify your argument to an extremis.

Why come on a hip hop message board and try to display yourself as a genious when in reality you are probably just some dirtbag that is hiding in the trenches. No offense, I respect you and all, but this is a hip hop message board. No need to display yourself as a know it all. All you've done is come onto this topic and misquote me. I want you to reread everything I said and you'll see how much of a fool you end up looking.

I find it comedic that I get called a 'fool' by someone who can’t spell the word genius correctly. Enough said.

Is it a crime to coherently argue a point in a persuasive manner or does everyone have to agree with you? Indeed I have already received feedback from other people on this board who agree with certain points I make because they understand I am not disrespecting 2Pac as individual or his achievements, merely stating that much of his work is overrated and over romanticised.

By calling me a dirt bag it would suggest your antagonised because I don’t agree with you which is very immature and something I’d expect from someone in the fifth grade, it’s the “you don’t like 2Pac, well fuck you prick, you don’t know anything” mentality without actually intellectually elaborating on a foundation for your viewpoint.

Not to mention, you are one of the most misinformed people I've ever came in contact with over the internet. Not only are you misguided but you have no true knowledge of what you sit on your computer and type. I suggest you do more research. You feel because you write sophisticated that you are an intellect, but I just pulled out your card.

You havent pulled my card in the slightest, I still retain absolute conviction in everything I have said and as far as telling me the reasons why I write about a subject close to my heart….you don’t actually know me and have no basis to form such an assumption…or do you consider yourself a mind reader as well as an elitist authoritarian on all things hip hop?

 

[Bobby Sands]

Originally Posted by Hituup
2Pac was there when Biggie was making his first album and 2Pac told him the formula to success and Biggie took the formula and created Big Poppa" B.I.G. himself never even denied this. In fact, Go to MTVnews.com and read the discussion that Sway and the other members at the round table were having and Sway himself makes reference to this.

Have you seen that Bed Stuy freestyles when Biggie was just 17?The raw talent was there regardless of how 2Pac influenced.To say that Pac gave Biggie the "Secret Formula" to success is untrue.

 

[Hituup]

I’m glad you concur with me, although I never expressly stated Jay Z is / was better than Biggie, I merely asserted that if one was to have a logical discussion about comparability between the two it should be a pre requisite that the catalogues of both rappers are taken into consideration.

Okay Calcuchiceo/Lady Miss Vixen. I know this is your annoying ass trying to prove something. Your the only one with this amount of time, but whatever. First of all I judge mc's from body of wok, impact, work ethic, influence, relevance, how original, and so many other things. You should be the last person to be telling me what criteria I should be considering before talking about the greatest mc.

you consistently refer to ‘NY radio’ as if it is some kind of authoritarian voice on Hip Hop and acts in a cult like way to indoctrinate vulnerable hip hop fans...in reality Biggie and Jay Z are held in high regard by the majority of mainstream rap connoisseurs the world over. The fact they hail from New York, the birthplace of the cultural revolution known as hip hop is irrelevant to the regard they are held in.

Before accusing me of attempting to sound like a teacher, perhaps it would be advantageous on your behalf to stop arrogantly informing prospective thread contributers you will ’school them’ before even listening to their points.

In case, you don't know NY is the mecca of hip hop. If you don't get a pass in NY, you haven't made it. That's a harsh reality. The NY radio format/the hot 97 format impacts all other radio stations around the nation. So many other music directors nationwide look at NY's radio station/hot 97 and use them as a blueprint of what records to play and what not to play. Many southern rappers will protest to that. From Ludacris, to Lil Jon, they've admitted that once you are not accepted in NY you have not reached that next level. And please don't sit up here and tell me that Jay-Z & Biggie being from New York is irrelevant to the positions they are held in today. If those 2 artists were not repping Brooklyn, New York it would be a whole different ballgame. If big & Jay were not given the title of the best to come out from NY, do you think things would be the same? If these men were not crowned "King Of New York" do you still think their following would be the same? And what does it matter to you what I was telling someone I was directly replying to.

Very intellectual articulation but it might be embarrassing for you to learn that the concept of B.I.G’s album isn’t original regardless of where he derived the idea from I.e- NY freshness (1988) incidentally they were from Brooklyn. Oh dear.

It doesn't matter if the concept was original or not. The concept was the concept for the original MATW album and Biggie who had the og copy of the album in his possession ended up having a similar sounding album. Whether he intentionally did this or not or directly or indirectly, the fact remains. Both albums are similar, but your thick headedness-know it all ways refuses to see that and insists on arguing.

So B.I.G is successful because 2Pac gave him the secret formula to hip hop achievement? A formula that could not be reciprocated by the Outlawz, Stretch or any of the hundred other rapper(s) that he shared a closer friendship than Biggie with? Perhaps he also made Biggie a better lyricist than even he? Gave Puff money to start up Badboy and single handidly ghost wrote Biggie’s entire catalogue whilst simultaneously beefing with him?…then again perhaps pigs fly and you’ve become a victim of a Death Row publicist. Chill out on the koolaid.

No, what I meant was B.I.G. became successful because 2Pac gave him his secret formula on how to sell records and succeed. And incase you don't know B.I.G was badboy and brought that label to it's height. So had it not been for 2Pac insisting on him making specific type of singles to have a certain appeal, Biggie may not have ever garnered that appeal that came onto him, which leaked onto the record label.

Apart from the knavish MATW example you cited earlier, what other concepts did 2Pac give Biggie? More to the point, what original concepts did 2Pac construct during his time as an emcee? Indeed, he might have pioneered a few concepts but he has created very few that did not precede him already. Additionally it might be interesting, if not a little embarrassing for you to learn that in a poll conducted by Hot 97 In February 1999 ‘Party N’ Bullshit’ was cited as the one Biggie song with most heterogeneous appeal, but then perhaps that was New York radio attempting to brainwash people again? Eh?

You call the example I cited earlier about MATW knavish, but you have not even researched what you speak of. I'm speaking facts. Go research what you are talking about. 2Pac's original MATW album was pushed back and had to be redone due to similarities. And even with him changing it up, you can hear the similarities. If you can't hear it, then too bad. As for Hot 97's poll, it was a small poll that was probably on their website or something. It only represented a certain region and only people with access to computers or something. It did not represent the people who went out and bought his album. And in fact what does "heterogeneous" appeal have to do with anything? Biggie didn't come out trying to reach a broad audience, he followed what his mentor taught him and reached for a specific fanbase. The plan was for him to specifically make music for the ladies and that's who he catered to. Did he not succeed from doing that?

It would appear you need to develop an understanding of the New York rap scene that preceded both artists. First of all, there is an infrequent amount of juvenile brashness featured on Ready to die, none of which is attributed by a 2Pac influence since it is perpetrated in a completely dissimilar ethos.

I didn't say or mean the whole God damn album is 2Pac influenced all the way, I meant a good portion of the album. And to say that being 2Pac ain't bold is crazy. 2Pac was very bold and made out of this world rhymes and songs such as "White Man's world" and lines such as "The doctor smacked me and I smacked her back and 1st words were Thug 4 Life" That's not the best example, but you get the point. What I'm trying to say is that he could've been animated like B.I.G as well. Not to mention lines from Juicy, which were all bits and pieces from pac's album such as paying small homage to the old school, which pac did on his lp and lines such as "Stereotypes of a black male misunderstood", which you can tell was influence from the more political side of pac.

But for a few shadowy examples 2Pac had no influence on the way in which Biggie wrote his rhymes, that much is evident from the technical proficiency present in Ready To Die; the poetical devices employed and the rhythmic license of delivery.

Once again, I doubt you are reading what I'm writing. I never said 2Pac wrote his rhymes or took credit on that or anything, but Biggie being surrounded by pac so much was just inevitable for Biggie to pick up a few things from pac, whether it's rhyme similarities or concepts. Delivery and flow is not included.

MATW was mostly all about dealing with death and feeling the weight of the world. The og album was more into that. Look at Biggie's album and tell me you don't feel the same paranoid-I'm ready 2 die state/stressed out state.

If your referring to subject matter, up until Ready To Die 2Pac had primarily been a socio political rapper with a rebellious conviction of anti police sentiment, there is very little topic concision prevalent here and furthermore the concepts you highlighted above were all fortified facets in the way many New York rappers had written before 2Pac even dropped his first album let alone MATW, they are ideas / subject matters that were not only prevalent in hip hop but also inherent in black culture way before 2Pac dropped his first album.

Correction, 2Pac was never a rapper that belonged to any category. He wasn't concious, he wasn't for feminists, and he wasn't any socio political rapper. His whole style was more of a radical-rebellious-I'm keeping it real rapper. With that being said he therefore had no limits in what he could say and do.

Anyone can see that Biggie’s chauvinist, bigoted, graphically narrative, profanity laced and at times shocking raps bared no resemblance to the socially aware well balanced politically minded 2Pac.

Again, read what I wrote above. You can't put 2Pac into any concious type of bracket and say he was political. Because the "Thug Life" LP was his previous album before MATW and on that album pac was probably more rebellious and more of a thug than ever and in that year of 94 he was getting into the most controversy. So yes, 2Pac was socially aware, but I doubt you've really listened to pac. He was a ready to die-no fear-I'm going out blasting in a robbery-f**k the police-I wasn't suppose to make it but I did-I'm hopeless feel. And this was also apart of his style in 94and before. That's how diverse he was. Matw, Thug Life, Loyal 2 Game, and R U Still Down were all completed in 1994 and before. And if you listen to those lp's correctly, you'll see those aspects in how I described him in each of those albums on some songs. And notice that I said listen-NOT SKIM. If you can't see the relation of everything I said about 2pac at that time period and relate it to The "R2D" album and see no comparison then you do not know how to analyze.

Talk about stating the bleeding obvious…and your point is what? I actually mentioned that it is not difficult to observe how different rap topics, style, delivery, general outlook on life and lyrical proficiency between 2Pac and Biggie / Jay Z are. Not just flow, but I guess you conveniently forgot to address those points.

My main point was that 2Pac was schooling Biggie on the politics of the rap game and ways to find success more accessible and in turn Biggie was probably doing the same thing for Jay-Z. And in turn Jay-Z may do the same for someone else. So when I say 2Pac fathered the kony know where I'm coming from.

Why you keep trying to compare 2Pac to Biggie to Jay-Z, beats me.

In his death 2Pac has grossed much more than he ever did when he was alive, he has a bigger posthumous fan base than he did whilst he was living. These are cold hard facts, scoff at them as you may. Never once have I insinuated his impact on the culture as a whole is without merit but his body of work is severely overrated.

Okay, whatever. You have your opinion on his body of work, but please don't try to push your opinion as facts. Like I said before, you are nothing more than a music critic than you are a fan of music. I doubt, you've even listened to some of his Makaveli mixtapes/albums. You've probably never heard some of his classic soundtrack songs either. Before you judge a man's body of work, I suggest you hear all his body of work. And from the way you talk, you are not knowledgable enough for me to even acknowledge you.

Spare me the Tupac history lesson. Once again you have misinterpreted what I have said, the point I was attempting to make is that the body of work he left behind has benefited from revisionalism, AEOM and the 7 Day theory were given below average reviews but yet because in death 2Pac has been emancipated at the martyr of a culture and the poster boy of a music genre, the same magazines that gave those average reviews have labelled them classics. Only because he is 2Pac.

To my knowledge, 7 Day Theory was never given an average review. From what I know the lp was awarded classic by several publications when it was released. You keep assuming that the only reason 2Pac's albums are revisionalized is due to what he has become after his death. How about accepting and or taking into consideration the fact that the original ratings may have been too low like so many other albums have been rated in the past. Does it necessarily mean that his work is not worth revision? Does the first say on something, mean it's always correct. Like what is your point? If the people of a magazine company feel the need to go back and review an artists work to give them a fair rating, then what's the problem?

So because I don’t revere a 2Pac album that is ruined by a plethora of ghastly guest appearances, slapdash production, tiresome themes, lack of cohesive clarity and creativity, played out rhyme schemes, sloppy delivery and countless other elements of musical ingenuity that makes me have bad taste in music? Or should I just bow down and admit because it’s a 2pac release that makes it an automatic classic regardless of it’s obvious faults?

Once again, you just keep proving my point. You are nothing but a critic.

Perhaps you should set your standards higher because it appears to me that if you label an album like Thug Life Vol 1 a near classic your pre requisite for identifying a classic album is severely flawed.

For your information, Thug Life came in at #11 out of the most 100 underrated hip hop classics of all time. Shows how much you know. It seems to me that you should perhaps get an ear check up, so your ears can examine music the way it should. You claim publications that originally reviewed pac's music as average go back and rerate it with higher scores, but yet 2Pac has an underrated classic. If 2Pac was such a martyr and poster boy for hip hop than this album would've been given 5 mics by publications after his death. In fact all of his albums would be boosted with more stars. But because publications just don't go around and wrecklessy name 2pac albums as classics, they didn't and stuck to what they thought was fair. FAIR. Fair, which was giving those albums the deserving rating. Those publications were being nothing but fair, I reckon it had anything to do with who he is.

50 Cent's The Massacre is generally an abhorrent album and if you view it with any sort of admiration beyond it's three or so above average tracks you really need to readdress how to identify good hip hop in general.

Once again. Whatever you say. Award 50 Cent's album as the worst ever album of all time then. The thing about you is that you are a critic and at the same time you have some influence from reading these message boards. Let me guess, the "Black Album" is a ssuper classic in your eyes also huh.?

The Source, Vibe and XXL have all rerated / romanticised AEOM and the 7 Day theory to a degree that they never originally gave either album credit for upon it’s original release date.



Just because an album is nominated for a grammy this in no way means it is deserving of being called a classic, similarly just because an album is timeless it can still fall short of being a good release. My point has always been that an album should be addressed upon quality alone, not because of who made the album. If we were to take your point of view, every release by any artist who has passed before his / her time and made an impact on a music genre should have their whole catalogue readdressed so that every album they ever made is held in higher regard than it would ever be deserving of had said artist been alive today. Lennon, Holly, Hendrix, Marley, Kobain etc..

Me Against The World was always considered a classic son. In fact, all these pac albums that you continue to name were considered classics by experts in that field. And when I say that, I'm talking about other mc's who can even attest to that. Not every album that is quality will be reviewed fair in public. If people feel the need to go back and revisit any musician's work either dead or alive, I don't see what the problem is like I stated earlier.

You really have shown yourself to be lacking any sense of non bias hip hop applicable reality / knowledge if you truly believe any posthumous 2Pac release can be considered good, let alone a classic.

I don't have any bias. I give music a chance. I don't sit there and look to pick at little things. The point is 2Pac is dead, but the fact that his music is still competing and is even better than some of today's lp's shows that the man was ahead of his time. His subject matter on posthumous albums are very relevant to what goes on with the times. Of course, a posthumous albums will have flaws. It can't be perfect because the artists is not there. But I do believe his mother has worked around his material to an okay/decent extent. But even with small effort, his albums are still very solid and not as abhorrent as you exaggerate it out to be. I believe that all his posthumous albums are solid enough to be stamped classics if they wanted to. Also like I said before, I know plenty of people that started listening to 2Pac through his posthumous albums. Although these albums may not be on the standards as what he put out, people can rationalize that this is not the man's effort of an album and he can't be blamed for any faults, but it is appreciated because it is on par. The fact that you are judging his albums as if he's making it currently and putting it out is not realistic.

The fact that a number of fans and publications have given albums like RUSD, UTEOT, BD, all fair reviews of about 3.5-4.5 all shows that at the end of the day it's what the masses think. Not some wannabe critic kid that think he/she knows all about hip hop.

Again it would appear that you only take ‘standing the test of time’ into consideration when coming to address any form of hip hop. There are plenty of non mainstream hip hop albums that have been forgotten about but are classics, had NaS of fallen into obscurity after he made Illmatic, I'm convinced that very few people would be aware of that album today which goes to falsify your argument to an extremis.

I take the "test of time" into consideration when it comes to hip hop as well as many other qualities when judging hip hop and albums. I believe all artists, whether they become huge or not should be recognized for their work PROPERLY.

I find it comedic that I get called a 'fool' by someone who can’t spell the word genius correctly. Enough said.

I find it comedic that you want to display intellect and or is trying to gain intellectual points on a hip hop topic on a hip hop forum. It's quite amusing. This isn't English class for your info.

Is it a crime to coherently argue a point in a persuasive manner or does everyone have to agree with you? Indeed I have already received feedback from other people on this board who agree with certain points I make because they understand I am not disrespecting 2Pac as individual or his achievements, merely stating that much of his work is overrated and over romanticised.

Since you have so much to say about a particular artists. Why don't you tell everyone who your "Goat" is?

By calling me a dirt bag it would suggest your antagonised because I don’t agree with you which is very immature and something I’d expect from someone in the fifth grade, it’s the “you don’t like 2Pac, well fuck you prick, you don’t know anything” mentality without actually intellectually elaborating on a foundation for your viewpoint.

I'm calling you a dirtbag because you are trying to appear as smart on a message board when in reality you are probably some quiet mouse in public. I never accused you of not liking him and quite frankly, if you did or not I wouldn't care, but I'd feel sorry for you. The point is I feel you are very misinformed and unknowledgable, but yet you insists on trying to argue. I'm not trying to antagonize you, I'm telling it like how it is. If we were to all be in a room face to be face, it would be much easier to get my point across than to type back and forth and wait for a response.

You havent pulled my card in the slightest, I still retain absolute conviction in everything I have said and as far as telling me the reasons why I write about a subject close to my heart….you don’t actually know me and have no basis to form such an assumption…or do you consider yourself a mind reader as well as an elitist authoritarian on all things hip hop?

No, I don't pretend to be an elitist, as you try to perceive yourself. I see myself as a realist. BTW, your smart ass tactics & slick way of typing can't phase me.

 

[Bombsquad]

Like c'mon. I agree mostly with hituup, but can you all please stop now. Like it's enough. you guys r on a hip hop forum writing story novels. It's not necessary. how much points do u all want. People can't understand it and it's just too long to read. the big vocabulary and big words is all unnecessary. I couldn't understand more than half the words and I know for certain that I'm not alone. in fact that's super wack to be using so many big words. no1 in here is super knowledgable and no one in here is a genious, so can you all stop it.This ain't an english forum, it's a simple rap discussion, so u all gots 2 stop tryin 2 outdo each other because it's really wack.

 

[Freedom Froggy]

why do ppl flip out of these types of list..?

im not understanding this.. it never fails that every yr a magazine/tv station/radio station/hiphop fan puts out a top 10 best mcs.. and they are only slightly different everyyr

1 yr its biggie, 1 yr its pac, 1 yr is rakim,1 yr its nas this yrs its jigga

who cares it will be a different person next yr and u may or maynot be happy... so.. take the guns from your temples.. chill out and say "theres always next yr"

 

[SiGh]

why do ppl flip out of these types of list..?

im not understanding this.. it never fails that every yr a magazine/tv station/radio station/hiphop fan puts out a top 10 best mcs.. and they are only slightly different everyyr

1 yr its biggie, 1 yr its pac, 1 yr is rakim,1 yr its nas this yrs its jigga

who cares it will be a different person next yr and u may or maynot be happy... so.. take the guns from your temples.. chill out and say "theres always next yr"

co-signed
truth. :thumb:
plus, fuck what others think. it aint the end of the world.

 

[albohemia]

I’m supposed to take advice about hip hop from someone who can’t spell the word genius or knowledgeable correctly and makes things up without referring to any legitimate sources?

something. Your the only one with this amount of time, but whatever. First of all I judge mc's from body of wok, impact, work ethic, influence, relevance, how original, and so many other things. You should be the last person to be telling me what criteria I should be considering before talking about the greatest mc.

Tupac is not the greatest Mc ever…he is a cultural figurehead for the genre that has never released a classic album. As far as lyrics go, he’s far from original. He had a larger impact than anyone on hip hop but that doesn’t make him a great mc and neither does a reputable work ethic. Like I said, you set your standards far too low.

In case, you don't know NY is the mecca of hip hop. If you don't get a pass in NY, you haven't made it. That's a harsh reality. The NY radio format/the hot 97 format impacts all other radio stations around the nation. So many other music directors nationwide look at NY's radio station/hot 97 and use them as a blueprint of what records to play and what not to play. Many southern rappers will protest to that. From Ludacris, to Lil Jon, they've admitted that once you are not accepted in NY you have not reached that next level.

So Snoop / Dre / Death Row renaissance needed to be accepted in NYC before they ’made it’, the Chronic never got airplay in NYC until it blew up in LA and in a similar way a few hundred local artists dominate airwaves in New York, Jadakiss has positively cracked New York and yet can’t sell anywhere else. In a recent poll in the New York Times, Ja Rule was more popularised in the region than 50 Cent but yet the latter obviously sells more records on a worldwide basis. Where is your source for those Ludacris / Lil Jon comments or have you just fabricated them?

And please don't sit up here and tell me that Jay-Z & Biggie being from New York is irrelevant to the positions they are held in today. If those 2 artists were not repping Brooklyn, New York it would be a whole different ballgame. If big & Jay were not given the title of the best to come out from NY, do you think things would be the same? If these men were not crowned "King Of New York" do you still think their following would be the same?

Um, Yes. That’s basically what I alluded to in my last post. Do you suffer from short term memory loss or something? Nelly isn't from New York and has the highest selling hip hop album of any LIVING artist. Eminem isn't from New York...their highest selling albums did double the numbers of Vol 2. (Jay Z's best selling album) Your point is pathetic for that reason alone. Moreover, the biggest first week sales this year in hip hop are from a non New York artist.

It doesn't matter if the concept was original or not. The concept was the concept for the original MATW album and Biggie who had the og copy of the album in his possession ended up having a similar sounding album. Whether he intentionally did this or not or directly or indirectly, the fact remains. Both albums are similar, but your thick headedness-know it all ways refuses to see that and insists on arguing.

For someone who encourages research where are your sources to back up your point that Biggie had an OG copy of the MATW album that had exactly the same concept he eventually went on to use? Cite me a reference. Ready To Die is far superior to MATW in every way, unlike 2 Pac releases once this album dropped it was hailed as an instant classic, they didn’t have to go back to it five years later because the guy had died. ’Thick headedness?’ - it’s obvious to anyone with half an ounce of intelligence that I am more articulate than you in verbalising my points and I also refrain from using personal insults, why? Because I’m basically too busy laughing at your ineptitude to back up your own points with any knowledge and your spelling mistakes. However I feel a correct useage of the word 'dumbass' to address you shall be duly implemented before this current contribution is over.

No, what I meant was B.I.G. became successful because 2Pac gave him his secret formula on how to sell records and succeed. And incase you don't know B.I.G was badboy and brought that label to it's height. So had it not been for 2Pac insisting on him making specific type of singles to have a certain appeal, Biggie may not have ever garnered that appeal that came onto him, which leaked onto the record label.

Once again, where are your sources that can prove 2Pac had a secret formula and what was this formula that 2pac was privy to? It certainly couldn’t have been that good when he gave it to BIG since Pac had only gone gold and platinum with his first two offerings. Hardly a formula to sell. There were many other rappers who at the time, were outselling Pac ten fold..ie Big Daddy Kane, Slick Rick, Rakim, NWA etc..I could go on and on and on and on and on.

You call the example I cited earlier about MATW knavish, but you have not even researched what you speak of. I'm speaking facts. Go research what you are talking about. 2Pac's original MATW album was pushed back and had to be redone due to similarities.

Research? Where is your source to back up this point?

And even with him changing it up, you can hear the similarities. If you can't hear it, then too bad. As for Hot 97's poll, it was a small poll that was probably on their website or something. It only represented a certain region and only people with access to computers or something. It did not represent the people who went out and bought his album.

What you wrote directly above proves that you simply make things up to suit your argument. Your a fraud with no capability to intellectually discuss anything hip hop related. A LIAR. ‘or something’!? you don’t even know what poll I’m talking about, how in the hell can you argue about something you obviously haven’t even heard of or are you so far up your own ass you have to start making things up? This says it all! You don’t know the size of the poll, you don’t know how it was conducted and you don’t know who participated and how…yet you still attempt to form an argument. Unbelievable!

And in fact what does "heterogeneous" appeal have to do with anything? Biggie didn't come out trying to reach a broad audience, he followed what his mentor taught him and reached for a specific fanbase. The plan was for him to specifically make music for the ladies and that's who he catered to. Did he not succeed from doing that?

In your previous post you alluded to the fact that BIG attempted to leave the style prevalent on ‘Party N Bullshit’ to make his music cater for women more after being influenced / advised by 2Pac. My point is ‘Party N Bullshit’ is actually the one track that has heterogeneous appeal ie- women like it just as much as men and I cited my source in the last post. It’s not my fault you can’t read.

And catering for the ladies is hardly an original concept in hip hop? Do you give Biggie no credit for being influenced by anyone other than Tupac? Say Big Daddy Kane, someone who had been making music for the ladies long before Tupac learnt to rap. Tupac didn’t invent or pioneer the idea.

What I'm trying to say is that he could've been animated like B.I.G as well. Not to mention lines from Juicy, which were all bits and pieces from pac's album such as paying small homage to the old school, which pac did on his lp and lines such as "Stereotypes of a black male misunderstood", which you can tell was influence from the more political side of pac.

Get a grip. BIG had a hundred other influences before Pac. Rappers have paid homage to the old school way before Pac was selling, jesus…do you realise how stupid you sound insinuating that BIG was influenced by someone he had known well for two years over the cats in his neighbourhood he had grown up with that were actually selling more than Pac at that time? The thing you fail to understand is Pac wasn’t selling shit until after he got shot, why would anyone attempt to copy his blueprint?

MATW was mostly all about dealing with death and feeling the weight of the world. The og album was more into that. Look at Biggie's album and tell me you don't feel the same paranoid-I'm ready 2 die state/stressed out state.

So they both alluded to death, I guess Hail Mary is directly responsible for the whole Life After Death album then.

Correction, 2Pac was never a rapper that belonged to any category. He wasn't concious, he wasn't for feminists, and he wasn't any socio political rapper. His whole style was more of a radical-rebellious-I'm keeping it real rapper. With that being said he therefore had no limits in what he could say and do.

Primarily, in the period you are referring to he was a socio political rapper and said that himself in YO! MTV raps in 1994, damn how stupid do you want to make yourself look? Now your actually disagreeing with 2Pac himself!?! = DUMBASS

Because the "Thug Life" LP was his previous album before MATW and on that album pac was probably more rebellious and more of a thug than ever and in that year of 94 he was getting into the most controversy. So yes, 2Pac was socially aware, but I doubt you've really listened to pac. He was a ready to die-no fear-I'm going out blasting in a robbery-f**k the police-I wasn't suppose to make it but I did-I'm hopeless feel.

So now I’m being told I haven’t actually listened to something I can talk about more articulately upon than you? Right! Continuing to make things up to cover for your lack of intellectual argument.

And this was also apart of his style in 94and before. That's how diverse he was. Matw, Thug Life, Loyal 2 Game, and R U Still Down were all completed in 1994 and before. And if you listen to those lp's correctly, you'll see those aspects in how I described him in each of those albums on some songs. And notice that I said listen-NOT SKIM. If you can't see the relation of everything I said about 2pac at that time period and relate it to The "R2D" album and see no comparison then you do not know how to analyze.

Yes, analyze all the wack lyrics and weak production that pervade the body of work you’ve just referred to and imagine they were released by anyone other than 2Pac, no one would remember them.

Like I said before, you are nothing more than a music critic than you are a fan of music. I doubt, you've even listened to some of his Makaveli mixtapes/albums. You've probably never heard some of his classic soundtrack songs either. Before you judge a man's body of work, I suggest you hear all his body of work. And from the way you talk, you are not knowledgable enough for me to even acknowledge you

You can’t even correctly spell knowledgeable. You’re a joke. Your making up things again just like you pretended to be informed about the Hot 97 survey you know nothing about, it’s all your fruitless, worthless and foolish assumptions.

Once again, you just keep proving my point. You are nothing but a critic.

A critic because I disagree with you? So anyone who doesn’t like a 2Pac album is automatically a critic of all things hip hop? Get a grip on reality.

For your information, Thug Life came in at #11 out of the most 100 underrated hip hop classics of all time. Shows how much you know. It seems to me that you should perhaps get an ear check up, so your ears can examine music the way it should. You claim publications that originally reviewed pac's music as average go back and rerate it with higher scores, but yet 2Pac has an underrated classic. If 2Pac was such a martyr and poster boy for hip hop than this album would've been given 5 mics by publications after his death. In fact all of his albums would be boosted with more stars. But because publications just don't go around and wrecklessy name 2pac albums as classics, they didn't and stuck to what they thought was fair. FAIR. Fair, which was giving those albums the deserving rating. Those publications were being nothing but fair, I reckon it had anything to do with who he is.

In a poll conducted by people who are viewed as jokes in the industry. But then you obviously only place your faith in those that agree with you.

Me Against The World was always considered a classic son. In fact, all these pac albums that you continue to name were considered classics by experts in that field. And when I say that, I'm talking about other mc's who can even attest to that. Not every album that is quality will be reviewed fair in public. If people feel the need to go back and revisit any musician's work either dead or alive, I don't see what the problem is like I stated earlier.

Sources? Show me a review written in the year MATW was released that labelled it a classic album? That’s all I ask..then I will completely admit I was wrong but I know I’m not because your unable to. Making things up again! SON

The fact that a number of fans and publications have given albums like RUSD, UTEOT, BD, all fair reviews of about 3.5-4.5 all shows that at the end of the day it's what the masses think. Not some wannabe critic kid that think he/she knows all about hip hop.

The masses have given great reviews to abhorrent albums since the dawn of time..it’s nothing new. The masses gave a Lil Kim album a classic rating…that’s how wrong they get it.

I find it comedic that you want to display intellect and or is trying to gain intellectual points on a hip hop topic on a hip hop forum. It's quite amusing. This isn't English class for your info.

You still can’t spell genius correctly? And the only reason you compare this to an English class is because you need a dictionary for half the words I use, it’s called being intellectual.

I'm calling you a dirtbag because you are trying to appear as smart on a message board when in reality you are probably some quiet mouse in public.

Assumptions with no merit…making things up with no basis…damn, a common theme is emerging!

 

[Bobby Sands]

People have nothing better to do.How can you sit down and type long posts like that^^.I know i dont have the patience.Id go insane typing something that long.

People have their own opinions.and they are entitled to them.For me 2Pac is the G.O.A.T,for others Rakim is.People tastes do differ.

 

[Bombsquad]

I’m supposed to take advice about hip hop from someone who can’t spell the word genius or knowledgeable correctly and makes things up without referring to any legitimate sources?



Tupac is not the greatest Mc ever…he is a cultural figurehead for the genre that has never released a classic album. As far as lyrics go, he’s far from original. He had a larger impact than anyone on hip hop but that doesn’t make him a great mc and neither does a reputable work ethic. Like I said, you set your standards far too low.



So Snoop / Dre / Death Row renaissance needed to be accepted in NYC before they ’made it’, the Chronic never got airplay in NYC until it blew up in LA and in a similar way a few hundred local artists dominate airwaves in New York, Jadakiss has positively cracked New York and yet can’t sell anywhere else. In a recent poll in the New York Times, Ja Rule was more popularised in the region than 50 Cent but yet the latter obviously sells more records on a worldwide basis. Where is your source for those Ludacris / Lil Jon comments or have you just fabricated them?



Um, Yes. That’s basically what I alluded to in my last post. Do you suffer from short term memory loss or something? Nelly isn't from New York and has the highest selling hip hop album of any LIVING artist. Your point is pathetic for that reason alone. Moreover, the biggest first week sales this year in hip hop are from a non New York artist.



For someone who encourages research where are your sources to back up your point that Biggie had an OG copy of the MATW album that had exactly the same concept he eventually went on to use? Cite me a reference. Ready To Die is far superior to MATW in every way, unlike 2 Pac releases once this album dropped it was hailed as an instant classic, they didn’t have to go back to it five years later because the guy had died. ’Thick headedness?’ - it’s obvious to anyone with half an ounce of intelligence that I am more articulate than you in verbalising my points and I also refrain from using personal insults, why? Because I’m basically too busy laughing at your ineptitude to back up your own points with any knowledge and your spelling mistakes. However I feel a correct useage of the word 'dumbass' to address you shall be duly implemented before this current contribution is over.



Once again, where are your sources that can prove 2Pac had a secret formula and what was this formula that 2pac was privy to? It certainly couldn’t have been that good when he gave it to BIG since Pac had only gone gold and platinum with his first two offerings. Hardly a formula to sell. There were many other rappers who at the time, were outselling Pac ten fold..ie Big Daddy Kane, Slick Rick, Rakim, NWA etc..I could go on and on and on and on and on.



Research? Where is your source to back up this point?



What you wrote directly above proves that you simply make things up to suit your argument. Your a fraud with no capability to intellectually discuss anything hip hop related. A LIAR. ‘or something’!? you don’t even know what poll I’m talking about, how in the hell can you argue about something you obviously haven’t even heard of or are you so far up your own ass you have to start making things up? This says it all! You don’t know the size of the poll, you don’t know how it was conducted and you don’t know who participated and how…yet you still attempt to form an argument. Unbelievable!



In your previous post you alluded to the fact that BIG attempted to leave the style prevalent on ‘Party N Bullshit’ to make his music cater for women more after being influenced / advised by 2Pac. My point is ‘Party N Bullshit’ is actually the one track that has heterogeneous appeal ie- women like it just as much as men and I cited my source in the last post. It’s not my fault you can’t read.

And catering for the ladies is hardly an original concept in hip hop? Do you give Biggie no credit for being influenced by anyone other than Tupac? Say Big Daddy Kane, someone who had been making music for the ladies long before Tupac learnt to rap. Tupac didn’t invent or pioneer the idea.



Get a grip. BIG had a hundred other influences before Pac. Rappers have paid homage to the old school way before Pac was selling, jesus…do you realise how stupid you sound insinuating that BIG was influenced by someone he had known well for two years over the cats in his neighbourhood he had grown up with that were actually selling more than Pac at that time? The thing you fail to understand is Pac wasn’t selling shit until after he got shot, why would anyone attempt to copy his blueprint?



So they both alluded to death, I guess Hail Mary is directly responsible for the whole Life After Death album then.



Primarily, in the period you are referring to he was a socio political rapper and said that himself in YO! MTV raps in 1994, damn how stupid do you want to make yourself look? Now your actually disagreeing with 2Pac himself!?! = DUMBASS



So now I’m being told I haven’t actually listened to something I can talk about more articulately upon than you? Right! Continuing to make things up to cover for your lack of intellectual argument.



Yes, analyze all the wack lyrics and weak production that pervade the body of work you’ve just referred to and imagine they were released by anyone other than 2Pac, no one would remember them.



You can’t even correctly spell knowledgeable. You’re a joke. Your making up things again just like you pretended to be informed about the Hot 97 survey you know nothing about, it’s all your fruitless, worthless and foolish assumptions.



A critic because I disagree with you? So anyone who doesn’t like a 2Pac album is automatically a critic of all things hip hop? Get a grip on reality.



In a poll conducted by people who are viewed as jokes in the industry. But then you obviously only place your faith in those that agree with you.



Sources? Show me a review written in the year MATW was released that labelled it a classic album? That’s all I ask..then I will completely admit I was wrong but I know I’m not because your unable to. Making things up again! SON



The masses have given great reviews to abhorrent albums since the dawn of time..it’s nothing new. The masses gave a Lil Kim album a classic rating…that’s how wrong they get it.



You still can’t spell genius correctly? And the only reason you compare this to an English class is because you need a dictionary for half the words I use, it’s called being intellectual.



Assumptions with no merit…making things up with no basis…damn, a common theme is emerging!

Once again. What is it with all these long posts? It's obvious you don't like 2pac and you came here just to give sublimal hate. Personally, I think it's pathetic that you have nothing better to do, but that's my opinion.

If you feel his body of work is overrated then fine. Everyone looks for different things in music. Personally, I see some of his posthumous works as not so notoriously attrocious and I deem some of his posthumous works as classics such as Sir. And in years to come, I wouldn't be surprised if Better Dayz or Still I rise were viewed as classics. Because as of right now those albums are probably too new to be considered classics. Not every classic will be viewed as a classic instantly. Some albums have to marinate. I think that Reasonable Doubt was an album that was revisited also. I know for a fact that pac albums ain't the only albums that get relooked. And if they do, so what? Publications aren't always right and sometimes when they realize this they go back.

 

[albohemia]

Once again. What is it with all these long posts? It's obvious you don't like 2pac and you came here just to give sublimal hate. Personally, I think it's pathetic that you have nothing better to do, but that's my opinion.

You obviously havent read anything of what I have said...I can assure you I hold Tupac in very high regard, he has done more for the genre than anyone but that doesn't mean he released classic albums. For the 900th time, if anybody else would have dropped the same albums you call classics, you would have forgot about them. They are overrated because they were made by 2PAC thus everyone immediatly seems to forget about the album's actual quality.

And how am I the one who is pathetic? have you read the posts to which I am replying, I've heard other board members make strongers arguments in favour of 2pac...I get the impression the guy seems to think every mainstream rap album ever made is either good or classic....and to be honest, I don't have the time to waste my minutes replying to his tripe.

2Pac is not the greatest emcee of all time, he is the most popular rapper of all time and the rapper who has achieved more than any other in terms of sales and furthering the culture and genre BUT his mic skills are sub par compared to a vast array of others regardless

 

[albohemia]

incidentally, the one thing that shocks me in the midst of this conversation is how hard people ride 2Pac's dick, not only do you think his body of work is completely flawless in everyway but you don't even fault any of the guest appearances that ruined every album he has made, this alone ensures he never made a classic.

 

[Bombsquad]

You obviously havent read anything of what I have said...I can assure you I hold Tupac in very high regard, he has done more for the genre than anyone but that doesn't mean he released classic albums. For the 900th time, if anybody else would have dropped the same albums you call classics, you would have forgot about them. They are overrated because they were made by 2PAC thus everyone immediatly seems to forget about the album's actual quality.

And how am I the one who is pathetic? have you read the posts to which I am replying, I've heard other board members make strongers arguments in favour of 2pac...I get the impression the guy seems to think every mainstream rap album ever made is either good or classic....and to be honest, I don't have the time to waste my minutes replying to his tripe.

2Pac is not the greatest emcee of all time, he is the most popular rapper of all time and the rapper who has achieved more than any other in terms of sales and furthering the culture and genre BUT his mic skills are sub par compared to a vast array of others regardless

So now 2Pac hasn't released any classic albums? That comment right there is crazy. That comment right there shows your a player hater in disguise. No one can do what anybody does. 2Pac did what he did best. Jay-Z did what he did best. To say that if any rapper was to make any of those pac albums, it wouldn't be classics is true, but at the same time not all the way. Although, if you were to give an upcoming artists that hasn't reached it's height such as freeway to put out an album like Better Dayz that you claim is so wack, it would boost his career. Those posthumous pac albums are great, but for 2pac it may be a little below him, but the albums are fair. If cassidy was to put out an album like the black album, do you think it would be considered classic? So at times it depends on who you are and what you are able to do.

Imo, 2pac is the perfect mc. He's everything an mc should be. He's had so many exclusive styles that so many people have taken from. If you want to talk about skills, there's more to being a lyricist than to have 2 million punchlines and metaphors on every song. That seems to me what you are leaning towards just like everyone else that wants to take away from pac as a lyricists and as a rapper.

 

[Bombsquad]

incidentally, the one thing that shocks me in the midst of this conversation is how hard people ride 2Pac's dick, not only do you think his body of work is completely flawless in everyway but you don't even fault any of the guest appearances that ruined every album he has made, this alone ensures he never made a classic.

I agree with you that at times, there may be an overabundance of the outlaws on 2pac's posthumous projects, but I don't let that get in the way. like the point that hitup made, I think u are just criticizing too much. Up until this point, the only weak pac posthumous album imo is lttg.