And MTV's Greatest MC of All Time Is...

[Bobby Sands]

What a load of shit talk.Who the fuck wants to hear more garbage from Jigga.I certainly dont.The Wack Album was enough for me.

 

[Bombsquad]

2pac should've been number 1. He was a total package mc. he was the epitome of a perfect mc. He had all the characterics: work ethic, work load, greatest catalogue/body of work, originality, relevance, appeal, skills, charisma, diversity, impact, influence, you name it.

2pac had so many flows it's ridiculous. people sleep on him because he didn't have 2 billion punchlines in every rhyme.
well hello, being a lyricists is about more than being in a race to having the most similies, metaphors, hyperboles, punchlines, etc.

2pac has about 6-7 classics and so many f**kin solid albums it's absurd.

MTV knows pac shoulda been #1. the only reason jay-z got the #1 spot is because he was able to close out his career, as pac wasn't able to do that.

Look at game, young buck, ja rule, and eminem, and master p. all those cats were heavily influenced by pac just to name a few and look how different those 4 artists are alone. that shows how diverse pac was.

biggie being #1 would be a joke and disgrace. B.I.G. had a teacher, which was 2pac, p.diddy as a trainer, hype men, dj's the whole nine. his career was set in place before he dropped ready 2 die, he was bound to blow up. but his body of work is a joke.

jay-z lacks originality. just follow his career, all he's done is follow trends and bite rhymes. since 96 and up. he went from rapping fast, to a mafia cat, to a bad boy looking suit wearing clean cat, to a hustler who was having a hard knock life. jay-z also lacks diversity. all his rhymes are ego driven. if it ain't about his money, it's about his hustling, if not that, he's the best mc and no 1 can see him. this man has no diversity, he's just too consistent.

 

[Hituup]

2pac should've been number 1. He was a total package mc. he was the epitome of a perfect mc. He had all the characterics: work ethic, work load, greatest catalogue/body of work, originality, relevance, appeal, skills, charisma, diversity, impact, influence, you name it.

2pac had so many flows it's ridiculous. people sleep on him because he didn't have 2 billion punchlines in every rhyme.
well hello, being a lyricists is about more than being in a race to having the most similies, metaphors, hyperboles, punchlines, etc.

2pac has about 6-7 classics and so many f**kin solid albums it's absurd.

MTV knows pac shoulda been #1. the only reason jay-z got the #1 spot is because he was able to close out his career, as pac wasn't able to do that.

Look at game, young buck, ja rule, and eminem, and master p. all those cats were heavily influenced by pac just to name a few and look how different those 4 artists are alone. that shows how diverse pac was.

biggie being #1 would be a joke and disgrace. B.I.G. had a teacher, which was 2pac, p.diddy as a trainer, hype men, dj's the whole nine. his career was set in place before he dropped ready 2 die, he was bound to blow up. but his body of work is a joke.

jay-z lacks originality. just follow his career, all he's done is follow trends and bite rhymes. since 96 and up. he went from rapping fast, to a mafia cat, to a bad boy looking suit wearing clean cat, to a hustler who was having a hard knock life. jay-z also lacks diversity. all his rhymes are ego driven. if it ain't about his money, it's about his hustling, if not that, he's the best mc and no 1 can see him. this man has no diversity, he's just too consistent.

Exactly, I agree with everything you said 100%.

MTV knew there was no way in hell that they could put biggie over pac because it would've been a riot. I agree that Jay-Z is better than biggie because to be realistic biggie's 2 albums can't measure up to the amount of hits, classics, and albums that Jay-Z got.

But overall though, biggie and jay-z are overrated. the ny scene makes em out to be something more than they are.

The Notorious B.I.G. was under 2Pac's wing before his career took off. Had it not been for 2pac to coach & mentor him, Biggie Smalls' success would not have reached the height he reached. So biggie owed everything to him imo. And in turn Jay-Z was underneathe B.I.G, so when it comes down to it 2pac fathered these so called new york greats.

I understand why Jay was awarded the #1 spot due to the quoted posts above, but I can't help but feel 2pac was cheated. But it's all good because 2pac has one 2 seperate greatests mc's countdown on his own before.

 

[ARon]

"2pac has about 6-7 classics and so many f**kin solid albums it's absurd"

It's things like this that make people like me think he is overrated.

 

[Hituup]

"2pac has about 6-7 classics and so many f**kin solid albums it's absurd"

It's things like this that make people like me think he is overrated.

Nobody with millions of fans is overrated. Nobody with movies, books, documentaries, course, and tribes all in their name is overrated. Nobody with a real life statue of them is overrated. He was great. I

f you don't have sense enough to see that and give this man and his music the deserving credit, you have to ask yourself what is wrong with you and what you are missing. Because the reality is there is something wrong with you and if you can't see that pac is what everyone makes him out to be, then your missing some pieces to a puzzle. So please don't sit up here and try to underrate him.

I feel bad for you. If you don't know how to listen to music, then too bad. I'm sure 2pac has had too many albums for you. And I'm sure you've skimmed through so many of his albums without taking the time to TRUely listen.

Go ahead and listen to your mixtapes, while you keep wondering how the hell is 2pac in everyone's top 2.

Thug Life-underrated classic, but still classic
Me against The World-Certified Classic
All Eyez On Me-Certified Classic
7 Day Theory-Certified Classic

Posthumous albums: R U Still Down-Slept On Classic Still I Rise-Overlooked classic.

And if someone wanted to give his other afterdeath albums classics, they could because so many of his other albums are balanced.

Please don't try 2 argue with me because I'll school you up and down.

 

[ARon]

The only albums I consider of his classic are MATW and 7 Day Theory. All Eyes On Me is up for arguement but people like to say it is classic cus it was the first double disc, its sold this much, blah, it was good music with some great and some mediocore tracks, it really wasn't anything new, not anything that hasn't been done before, but it is up for discussion. But seriously, Still I Rise and R U Still Down classic? So I guess you were ok with The Source giving Kim' album 5 mics and saying it is also a classic?

"Nobody with millions of fans is overrated. Nobody with movies, books, documentaries, course, and tribes all in their name is overrated. Nobody with a real life statue of them is overrated. He was great."
Seriously, this has nothing to do with him being an MC.

"If you don't have sense enough to see that and give this man and his music the deserving credit, you have to ask yourself what is wrong with you and what you are missing. Because the reality is there is something wrong with you and if you can't see that pac is what everyone makes him out to be, then your missing some pieces to a puzzle. So please don't sit up here and try to underrate him.

I feel bad for you. If you don't know how to listen to music, then too bad. I'm sure 2pac has had too many albums for you. And I'm sure you've skimmed through so many of his albums without taking the time to TRUely listen."

Don't try to attack someone you know nothing about and assume something about someone, it makes you look bad. Half of your arguement is based on what you think I hear, not what the artist is saying. So can we get over the little kid stuff and who makes who look dumber and discuss this music and list.

 

[Hituup]

The only albums I consider of his classic are MATW and 7 Day Theory. All Eyes On Me is up for arguement but people like to say it is classic cus it was the first double disc, its sold this much, blah, it was good music with some great and some mediocore tracks, it really wasn't anything new, not anything that hasn't been done before, but it is up for discussion. But seriously, Still I Rise and R U Still Down classic? So I guess you were ok with The Source giving Kim' album 5 mics and saying it is also a classic?

I don't know how you judge music. But I go according to my own ratings. And as you see, the person I quoted agrees that pac has more than the amount of classics documented and or most referred to. Anyway, I felt like you tried to play him out on his own site or what use to be his site, which made me probably come at you like that.
And btw, everything I said had everything to do with him being an mc because his music brought him to that height of such recognition that you call underrated. He was an mc first before everything, so don't get it misconsrewed. But if you feel I offended you, I'll be the bigger man and apologize. Back to the list. How does your top 5 go or how would you have put it?

 

[ARon]

All good.

See, that other guy said he has 6 or 7 classics and he released what, 5 solo albums and also Thug Life while he was alive. That is pretty much saying everything he has done is up to that standard, which is simply not true. That was my problem with that statement.

I submitted my own top 10 at the MTV site, keep in mind I, or anyone for that matter can change their list daily so this might help you out as to what I look for. I gave little captions but they're mostly bullshit.

5. Big Daddy Kane - The fact he can still and did do the splits at VH1's Hip-Honor's Awards cements his spot.
4. Tupac - Most versatile artist ever.
3. Nas - "That buck that bought a bottle could of struck the lotto", enough said.
2. Notorious B.I.G - Biggie Smalls is the wickedest.
1. Rakim - There is a reason they call him God.

Notice Ra and Nas being up there, that should probably help you see what I look for in an MC. I could easily put a handful of artists in the #2 spot, or top 10, but I don't think anyone can take away what Rakim has done and still continues to do.

 

[simo]

Biggie over 2Pac? I could understand that, although I don't agree.

Jay Z over Biggie? Now thats fucking ridiculous. Everything Jay Z does, Biggie did it better.

 

[Pittsey]

Why is everyone using albums to justify their favourite rapper being number 1??

Surely if we based it on albums then Dr Dre would be the greatest rapper. And we all know how wrong that would be. As wrong as making Jay-Z (again I'll say it - Biggie's Hype man) as number 1!!

It has more to do with who your favourite rapper is, more than technical skill. It's the whole package. Whose music helps you when you're struggling. I know when I was a kid and I had problems I'd listen to Pac and he'd inspire and help me.


Tupac isn't my favourite rapper, but he is my GOAT.


I'm not going to change peoples minds so I'm not going to try.


And Advocate, obviously if Nas and Rakim are your favourite rappers it isn't because they're under rated, that's your choice.. But people generally always back the underdog. You are taking my words and twisting them. And I didn't just put my favourite rapper at number 1. Obviously Nas and Rakim are up there technically, but Ra has touched a lot less people and doesn't touch the social subjects 2pac does. As someone put it the other day to me, Tupac was very political without actually speaking politics.

 

[marc]

People are forgetting about what hiphop was all about. See, i dont consider myself to be a "head" or anything, since im sleeping on a lot of old school cats.
IMHO rap is not only about party tracks etc. Its about the struggle in general, but ALSO about having a good time. Pacs music was about the good times (stay true, old school...), the struggle (brenda, so many tears, life goes on..), for clubbing (cali love). Yes, numerous other rappers have made songs about those topics, but still, i think 2pac did it best.

still, i can understand why people wouldnt want to put him #1. its all about taste. i may think your not objective enough if you dont put pac 1, but i have to admit theres no real way to judge if you are objective yourself.

 

[albohemia]

The following is in direct reply to certain points that have been made thus far in this thread, as a long time viewer of this forum, this is the first time I feel strongly enough to register on the board with the sole purpose of highlighting my viewpoint. The first point that needs to be made is that anyone who places any authority in a list conducted by MTV needs to develop a wider knowledge of the genre as a whole…

(warning: the following contains critiscm of AEOM and The 7 Day theory, if you are an obsessive Tupac fan who has a distinct inability to rationally address the quality of individual albums on the sole basis of quality as opposed to the merit of the individual that completed them, you might want to leave this thread now.)

Then I saw Biggie at 3 and flipped. Jay-Z better than Biggie?

I would hesitate to use the word ‘better’ however it must be taken into consideration that Jay Z has had a more prolific career than BIG due to well known fact that CW only dropped two albums whilst he was alive, to compare that body of work to Jigga’s 8 solo studio pieces is foolish in the extremis. Certainly, one would concur with the popular belief that Ready to Die is still the best of all albums in the two catalogues, however there must come a time when rap connoisseurs finally admit that an artist cannot be lauded upon the sole basis of one album. Life After Death was a strong outing but it is far from a classic.

You then go out to change your opinion completely showing you have absolutely no conviction in it anyway....

I agree that Jay-Z is better than biggie because to be realistic biggie's 2 albums can't measure up to the amount of hits, classics, and albums that Jay-Z got.

But overall though, biggie and jay-z are overrated. the ny scene makes em out to be something more than they are.

The reason Jay Z, Biggie and indeed Tupac can sell as many records as they do is because they do not suffer Jadakiss syndrome and can permeate both coasts with pervading radio play. To say that Ready To Die is a classic because of the ’NY scene’ is in my opinion ridiculous, it’s the one of very few albums in the industry that is held in worldwide universal acclaim. Similarly, how anyone can say the ’NY scene’ has presupposed the success of Jay Z is beyond me when it’s been shown that he sells records on a worldwide basis and is probably the most versatile rapper (business wise) that has lived. Additionally greater arguments could be formed from the Tupac - California association if one were wishing to converse about how regions have assisted rappers to flourish.

The Notorious B.I.G. was under 2Pac's wing before his career took off. Had it not been for 2pac to coach & mentor him, Biggie Smalls' success would not have reached the height he reached. So biggie owed everything to him imo. And in turn Jay-Z was underneathe B.I.G, so when it comes down to it 2pac fathered these so called new york greats.

Absolute Bullshit. The friendship between Biggie and 2Pac has been overly embellished by the media, I’m in no way disputing the fact that they used to ’run together’ but lets not forget, in an early nineties 'highly invigorated' New York rap scene it was not uncommon for aspiring rappers to be brought together by their harmonized love of the art.

Do not be fooled, they were never best friends. Conversely to pronounce that Tupac ’coached and mentored’ Biggie is an obtuse assumption based on nothing but the hearsay of obsessive Tupac fans.

There is nothing similar about the style and delivery of either artist; Biggie has always been distinctly New York - many old New York heads will still remember him as a teen on the corners in Brooklyn spitting off the top of his dome…just because 2Pac achieved some success before Biggie in no way means he influenced him to any degree and to say that he owes his career success to Tupac just makes me pity your unbelievably misguided perception of the way in which both artists ’came up’ by themselves.

To say that Tupac fathered any New York artist is unbelievably foolish when it is well known that Pac himself had two main sources of influence which are both easy to hear throughout the course of his work. Scarface and Ice Cube…both artists whom incidentally sound nothing like anyone on the Eastcoast, now compare that to the style of Biggie and Jay Z…which are as I alluded to earlier both distinct NY styles.

Moreover, anyone with half an ayatollah of hip hop knowledge will understand that the rap topics, style, delivery, general outlook on life, lyrical proficiency and to a lesser extent flow between Tupac and Biggie / Jay Z couldn’t be more different. Feel free to request an elaboration should you not be clear about this.

Nobody with millions of fans is overrated. Nobody with movies, books, documentaries, course, and tribes all in their name is overrated. Nobody with a real life statue of them is overrated. He was great.

And your premise for the focal point of discourse here seems to be that anyone who is popular is not overrated. I could name a million popular artists who are overrated, many of whom posthumously earn more than the legacy of Tupac and have a much bigger fan base.. Statues, movies and books merely mean his memory is marketable. A testament to his legacy? Of course. But overrated all the same.

As the old adage goes 'everyone is entitled to their own opinion' the beauty of music is that there is no right or wrong opinion thus to chastise someone because they don’t share the same opinion of Tupac as you do is remarkably immature. Perhaps you should consider the more realistic idea that perhaps the said viewpoint has not been unduly influences by the post 1996 2Pac media overkill, rose colour glasses of prominent cultural activists and the multitude of fans who, it’s sad to say, were never aware of him until after his untimely passing. To insinuate that because someone does not agree with a majority they are ‘missing some pieces to a puzzle’ is not only non democratic but also stands against everything Pac himself stood for.

Go ahead and listen to your mixtapes, while you keep wondering how the hell is 2pac in everyone's top 2.

Thug Life-underrated classic, but still classic
Me against The World-Certified Classic
All Eyez On Me-Certified Classic
7 Day Theory-Certified Classic

Posthumous albums: R U Still Down-Slept On Classic Still I Rise-Overlooked classic.

First of all if you going to use the word ‘certified’ I sincerely hope your not using it on the basis of any review given in the Source, the Vibe or XXL.

Thug Life is actually a below par album that like every other 2Pac album has benefited from revisionalism, made by anyone other than 2Pac I can guarantee you wouldn’t even remember the name of the work. Me Against the World is a good album but not flawless, All Eyez On Me is unfortunately one of the most overrated rap albums ever..it’s saturated with inconsistent quality, there are some truly excellent stand alone tracks but placed amongst a multitude of very weak tracks they lose significance to the album. The production is muddled, Pac has been lyrically stronger and once again the guest appearances are for the most part abhorrent with the notable exception of Kurupt, Snoop and a few others. The 7 Day Theory suffers from many of the same problems…

Don’t even get me started on the tripe that has dropped since his death. Do you think anyone would buy the garbage that was UTEOT had it not been a 2pac release? this highlights my point exactly.

People fail to understand that just because these albums are uber popular and have defined a genre of music does not make them classics. I am in no way disputing the work ethic of 2pac or his importance to rap music in general but better albums have been made by artists who are less significant to the culture which you wouldn’t listen to twice…2 Pac like most great artists who pass before their time have benefited from revisionalism. Why do you think that when originally released, AEOM and the 7 Day Theory garnered only average reviews by well respected Hip Hop magazines? Those same magazines that return to them five years after they have been made and label them classics? Quite simply, only because he is 2Pac.

It is interesting to note, that Tupac’s best album S4MN you haven’t even mentioned here. No other 2Pac album is more cohesive, to the point, fuelled with raw and genuine emotion, engaging to the listener or lyrically / technically proficient than this album.

The biggest problem I have as a fan of genuinely good hip hop and 2Pac is not the fact AEOM and the 7 Day Theory are unduly lauded, it’s that S4MN seems to have been forgotten about...why?....
mainly because the style / tone of the album is perceived as being more old school - in direct contention with the majority of Pac’s fifteen to twenty five year old fan base that have grew up listening to a style more similar to that exhibited on Pac’s final two albums and subsequent drivel of posthumous releases.

Rant over
..and I don't wish to receive replies along the lines of "your smoking crack, AEOM is the best fucking album ever bar none in the world since the start of time, it's great in every way..2 Pac is god" etc...I am well aware I have posted on a board overloaded with Tupac fans but unless you can articulately address the points I've made in an intellectual manner I will not satisfy your post with a response.

 

[simo]

albohemia, even as a big 2Pac fan I agree with alot of your points. however, I still think that what JayZ does, Biggie did better, regardless of his lack of material which is hardly his fault.

anyways, you write extremely well; you should post more often.

 

[TCD]

I agree on alot of points that albo has raised.

 

[TCD]

"2pac has about 6-7 classics and so many f**kin solid albums it's absurd"

It's things like this that make people like me think he is overrated.

:thumb:

 

[Pittsey]

albohemia, even as a big 2Pac fan I agree with alot of your points. however, I still think that what JayZ does, Biggie did better, regardless of his lack of material which is hardly his fault.

anyways, you write extremely well; you should post more often.

Jay-Z is a baby biggie. Biggie does everything Jay does and does it technically better.

"2pac has about 6-7 classics and so many f**kin solid albums it's absurd"

It's things like this that make people like me think he is overrated.

A lot of people do over rate 2pac. They say he is technically better than Biggie, Nas or Rakim. But a lot of people say 2pac had poor flow, or wasn't lyrical. He was a very talented rapper, and the reason I put him at number 1 is more than just 1 part. It's the whole package, and the way his words touched people.

I consider only 1 of his albums a true classic, possibly 2. But I enjoyed all of the albums he released while alive, even the worst in my opinion, AEOM.

 

[tHuG $TyLe]

Reasonable Doubt isn't a classic. It's just Jays best album. 8 albums, 0 classics. Not number 1 rapper is he.


Having a die hard fan is different to having a dickrider.


No way is Jay-Z number 1, he is and always will be Biggie's hype man. I respect what he has achieved. But he only achieved that because of Biggie, and because of his death. Jay-Z is a 2/3 Biggie.
MATW is a definate 5/5 album. DK7 is close.

Umm...in your opinion it's not a classic.

 

[Duke]

Tupac should always be Number 1. He achieved more in his short time than any other rapper. Look at how many rappers he has inspired. Look how many records he sold when hip-hop was no where near as global as it is now. Look at his work rate. Look at how many real fans he has. People who get upset when he isn't recognised. How many other rappers have fans who actually love him?

Rakim and Biggie may be technically bigger. But how can Biggie be number 1 with only 2 albums released and 1 of them was only 3/5. Rakim has been around for years, and although he is an amazing lyricist and a pioneer, does he really deserve top spot?

I will always put 2pac as the greatest of all time. Just because of the quality of his work, his intelligence and they way he touched people. He may not be my favourite rapper, but he is still my GOAT.

I think people over rate rappers like Nas to componsate for the fact the mainstream under rates them. They're good. But better than Pac??? Why are you here and not on a Nas/Rakim board. As this started with 2pac and most of you have been here before it was Streethop. We all get bored of Pac. But if you heard "So Many Tears" for the first time today what would you think.

Disagreed . This was about the greatest MC. And Pac definitely wasn't. Rakim, Nas, Biggie are all much better.

 

[Pittsey]

Disagreed . This was about the greatest MC. And Pac definitely wasn't. Rakim, Nas, Biggie are all much better.

In that case I agree not Tupac. But I still wouldn't put Jay-Z at the top of the list. Rakim, Biggie and Nas come above him.

I still rate Tupac as the greatest rapper of all time.


*Disclaimer - ignore all my previous posts, I obviously can't read.*

 

[Duke]

In that case I agree not Tupac. But I still wouldn't put Jay-Z at the top of the list. Rakim, Biggie and Nas come above him.

I still rate Tupac as the greatest rapper of all time.


*Disclaimer - ignore all my previous posts, I obviously can't read.*

Aye. I'm a Jay-Z fan and he's a good MC. But not top 5 and certainly not number 1.

Also, on the list of greatest MC's, i'd put Big L up there too.