New 2pac unreleased song?

[Bobby Sands]

nevermind again.

 

[Caesar]

From what I've gathered the bootlegging has nothing to do with that. The music is being remixed because the beats are "outdated" and they're trying to market a new audience. Bootlegs or no bootlegs, the music would get remixed.

Can't comment on Dante.

If you rewind back to the late 90s, that wasnt the case. It may be now, maybe, but not back then. Back then the only reason those Makaveli albums didnt come out was because of the Makaveli bootlegg series.

 

[Caesar]

This is your point of view. Imagine it from Dante's point of view. How many times do you think he has been fucked over or ripped off. And now how many times do you think people have tried to rip him off or fuck him over?

Thats like saying we should feel sorry for drug dealers when they are ripped off.

The only people who DESERVE to profit off Tupac's music are the people involved in creating it, his wife, and his children. Since he didn't have a wife, or children that point is moot.

You are right, the only people who deserve to be paid are the ones "involved in creating it," and those are the musicians such as Fatal, The Outlawz, the producers and the engineers that are not being paid. You are right, they deserve to be, and that is what makes bootleggs wrong because while someone IS profiting off of the work, it isn't those who deserve it.

Amaru seems to have no problem not paying the people involved in the actual creation of most of his music so again this point is almost moot from a morality view point. If Tupac was still alive this situation wouldn't be in place so again its a moot point.

I dont know Amaru's business ethics, even if they were just as shady, and they arent or else they woudnt be able to legally opperate, it still doesnt excuse what Dante does. Two wrongs dont make a right.

From what I can tell, Amaru pays their employees, producers, and people who feature on the songs.

Again, thats your point of view. A lot of the people he supposedly ripped off were being shady to begin with or affiliated with shady people.

Two wrongs dont make a right, and even if they did, it isn't up to Dante, with his shady past, to exact justice on other people.

The amount of people who have ripped Dante off makes him use a certain amount of caution when selling to people.

Now you're just buying into his bullshit propoganda. How do people rip Dante off? They BUY his bootleggs and then what? Leak them? The bootleggers is crying foul that someone is leaking his bootleggs? He is making profit off of someone elses work and yet is crying that someone is leaking it onto the internet? How ironic is that?

From Dante's point of view he's not ripping people off, he's protecting his interests.

That's the thing though, they arent HIS interests to protect.

I won't even comment on this.

Of course you wont, because you and others, and Im sure Dante, prefer to ignore the fact that what he does is wrong and instead justify it because "boo hoo Dante gets ripped off too." It isn't his property to sell. It isnt the property of those that sell it to him in the first place either. He is accepting stolen goods and reselling them, in any other industry that is a felony.

To be honest I really dont care. I understand Dante, I see the business behind it, I dont hate him like I dont hate drug dealers, it is supply and demand, and just like drug dealers he creates both the demand and the supply. But what I can not stand is people like you acting like what he does is just and good for whatever reasons.

 

[Caesar]

caesar is against bootlegging but i wonder what his opinion would be if dante was bootlegging and giving the songs away for free... hmmm.

If he was giving them away for free it wouldnt sit as bad with me. Im against him making a profit off of work that doesnt belong to him AND people acting like its the Saintly thing to do.

from my dealings with dante, he's very untrustworthy... the only problem i have with him bootlegging is that he's turning a profit and ripping people off at the same time...

Yep. :thumb:

 

[masta247]

Caesar, you're looking at it like its a total black and white scenario. There's a whole history to consider when talking about this situation. It'd be like trying to explain why WWII happened w/o examining what happened in Europe from about ~1890 onto the invasion of Poland.

Well, I might not be fully objective on this one but I think it is pretty much a good example of a black and white scenario.

I don't really have any problems with Dante and never had any. Most people that had problems with him were into 'shady business' themselves.
You wouldn't get cheated if you were fair. You did because you wanted to jack 2pac's og's in the first place. Buying those tracks from him is actually kind of similar to what he does. He also buys those tracks from other people. The only difference is that he actually sells them further, if you buy them it means that you consider that deal to satisfy you. You agree even though you know that it's not official. Sure you can compare him to a drug dealer but you wouldn't get hurt if you never made any business with him. I might not support what he's doing but I still remember him when he was here. Most people kissed his ass and begged for 2pac songs and asked questions, even if most of them would then turn around and say how bad and crooked he was. You can call him a mean, selfish bastard but most people hating on him do this because they were dissed by him after trying to get songs or information he wouldn't want to give. Not liking him for what he does is understandable but hating is simply strange. You would miss a lot of info on 2pac as well as his songs if it wasn't for Dante. And no, I don't believe that we would hear many original songs leaked "thanks to him" if he wasn't there. We would get remixes without ever hearing originals. We as fans could gather money and pay people like Pac's producers for specific songs but that way the outcome would be identical with the only difference that each and every one participating would feel like a "bad guy" stealing 2pac songs. This way right now Dante is the bad guy and the rest is "stealing from the thief". Now they are Robin hoods, not crooks. And I don't think that the amount of money he received from those projects is much higher than what he paid for those tracks in the first place.

 

[Freedom Froggy]

Well, I might not be fully objective on this one but I think it is pretty much a good example of a black and white scenario.

I don't really have any problems with Dante and never had any. Most people that had problems with him were into 'shady business' themselves.
You wouldn't get cheated if you were fair. You did because you wanted to jack 2pac's og's in the first place. Buying those tracks from him is actually kind of similar to what he does. He also buys those tracks from other people. The only difference is that he actually sells them further, if you buy them it means that you consider that deal to satisfy you. You agree even though you know that it's not official. Sure you can compare him to a drug dealer but you wouldn't get hurt if you never made any business with him. I might not support what he's doing but I still remember him when he was here. Most people kissed his ass and begged for 2pac songs and asked questions, even if most of them would then turn around and say how bad and crooked he was. You can call him a mean, selfish bastard but most people hating on him do this because they were dissed by him after trying to get songs or information he wouldn't want to give. Not liking him for what he does is understandable but hating is simply strange. You would miss a lot of info on 2pac as well as his songs if it wasn't for Dante. And no, I don't believe that we would hear many original songs leaked "thanks to him" if he wasn't there. We would get remixes without ever hearing originals. We as fans could gather money and pay people like Pac's producers for specific songs but that way the outcome would be identical with the only difference that each and every of us would be called a "bad guy" stealing 2pac songs.

i think this summarizes everything.. I cant hate on dante for the fact that atleast half the shyt im hearing prolly would never had came out if it wasnt for TE' being such an avid lover of pac (even though he turned his love for pac into a "business").

and if you deem it illegal I STILL cant hate cause shyt i went to jail for something illegal.. and DANTE was one of the only people to take the time out and write me. I dont think hes a bad dude.. he can be a dickhead at times and prolly never responds on aim lol

bizness practices wise.. I remember bigmack said he did some bizz with him and everything turned out good. SO I think the situation has come down to jealousy

most of the bad practices you hear about there seems to be a 3rd or 4th person involvement somewhere most of the time but , true I cant speak from personal experiences on that

And i believe that if any of us had the opportunity to have made the connections/networked with people that dante has and turn a profit.. we would do it.. i definately would lol..

 

[Freedom Froggy]

Also... I would like to say that this is a great thread!!!!! Great discussion (even though i dont like to talk about someones personal business and personal problems)

9 pages... This is what threads on streethop/2pacboard/hitemup used to look like back in 00/01/02/03

we need more!!!!!

 

[Preach]

Please explain how all of the points I posted in my previous post are illogical?

You and all the other suckers that are using the "illegal" argument are being hypocrites. You failed to tell me if you've ever speeded in traffic. Which, whatever you tell me, I will know that you have done once. If you can justify to me why a person who potentially endangers other people's lives is morally empowered to judge on a matter he knows NOTHING about, I'll be thrilled. (Even without being so childish, I can say that the argument about "bootlegging is illegal" is so stupid, if you don't fucking shut it with that bullshit, I'm gonna report this website for the illegal downloading activities going on here. You heard me. Even if it fails, I will make sure I do everything in my power to try and get this site shut down for illegal downloading activity. If you want to be so fabulous about it we can play that game, but we both know that you're gonna lose it because you're running a website that endorses pirated music lol.

I'm totally serious so just try me. I know a few channels through which to do that so. I can adapt to another forum, and for such a personal victory it'd be worth it.

When did you start coming around again? I'm telling you you're wrong. I've already explained in great depth WHY you are wrong. I explained HOW the Tupac remixing game unfolded, and I also presented counter-arguments to your personal opinions about the people on that forum (whom you don't even know but judged based on 6 pages from one thread taken out of a whole fucking forum). You shouldn't take those counter-arguments too lightly and just dismiss them, because I've dealt with a lot of these people in the past, and know them way better than you think you do. You think they're evil, I know they're not, the difference is I actually know what I'm talking about. You do not

You're like a kid trying to figure out the adult world. That's what you look like to me. And you're obviously gonna take that as an insult or a personal diss. It's just the best way I can explain what I really feel is going on, and most people that were ever deep in the Pac scene will agree with me. I've already been repped for my posts by people that haven't responded in the thread. (By "deep" I mean that you ever even made an impact, or that people even remember you.)

 

[Preach]

preach is preaching that dante is innocent for he has never gotten ripped off... as far as he knows.
caesar is against bootlegging but i wonder what his opinion would be if dante was bootlegging and giving the songs away for free... hmmm.

from my dealings with dante, he's very untrustworthy... the only problem i have with him bootlegging is that he's turning a profit and ripping people off at the same time...

did you read the part of my post sorta directed at you? well anyway, i understand your position totally. i'm not saying you (SonOf2pac) should start liking dante again. i mean that's totally up to you lol. i'm just saying that caesar who has no idea what he's talking about, shouldn't be making such a strong case. it makes him look bad.

i also never used the word "innocent" in any of the 2000 sentences so far. i just searched through them. so way to go twisting my words because you disagree.

i said that most people here shouldn't talk about dante. most people here never had anything to do with him. to most people here, he is the 2pac dude with all the stuff, but he's not the guy they ever talked shit with or knew. me and dante were more like friends, meaning, when shit like people trying to fuck him over bothered him he would talk about it to people, some times me. he wasn't trying to convince me to do anything, or to be on his side. he knew i was anyway. he just aired frustrations about people that are two-faced. it's most often the case. not very many people simply sent money and got ripped off just like that. there was always some detail. in your case, you were in kahoots with the biggest liar and fake on the whole scene. go figure my friend, go figure. you can only blame yourself for that one, even if you didn't know. be mad at cr rebel for fooling you which eventually got you fucked over, don't be mad at dante for protecting his interests. that's what i'm preaching. misplaced anger is common and bad.

btw. since we're on the subject, i'll tell you a story i never told anyone but dante. do you remember danny boy? he also went by the names of "udb" and "deathrow's finest" back in the day. well, i got involved with him when i was collecting. he had an overwhelming access to items that were otherwise rare. in later years it turns out i THINK he got put in charge of selling items for another collector. i think he's always been shady like this, trying to make good deals for one groupation of collectors that aren't really on good terms with dante and the crew. consider them competitors of some sort.

anyway, danny boy took me for about $1500. i never told anyone about it because there are details to the case which suggest it was ultimately my fault. that doesn't mean he didn't take advantage of me, but i was the fool to let it happen. so i'm not just being holier than thou. i'm preaching cause this is a lesson i learned. if you wanna be angry at everybody over 300 dollars that's on you, but if you can't understand why dante was sceptical of you, then you probably would have done something stupid with the song anyway.

 

[Casey]

most people that were ever deep in the Pac scene will agree with me. I've already been repped for my posts by people that haven't responded in the thread. (By "deep" I mean that you ever even made an impact, or that people even remember you.)

I don't agree Preach. And I'd say I was definately deep in the scene for some time. The reason I don't agree is because I have personally witnessed the problems caused by what the bootlegging does.

It is at least partially true that the reason some tracks have been remixed is because of bootlegging. I heard that direct from Johnny and QD, neither of whom were very happy at all about the issue. QD had video footage stolen and bootlegged if I recall.

I say this part as speculation, because QD is a very cool guy and I'm still on friendly terms with him, but I seriously would not be surprised if the "Soon As I Get Home" reel that "mysteriously appeared" just prior to the Pac's Life deadline wasn't lost at all, QD just took steps to make sure the track didn't get remixed by some wack ass new jack. Of course that's just speculation and not massively relevant to this argument, but the fact is that situation wouldn't necessarily have had to happen if it weren't for certain tracks getting bootlegged heavily.

And then you've got people like Gobi, who sold some video footage. Now of course when I met him at his office he seemed to be doing OK, but it seems like he sold the footage because he needed the money. So therefore he was exploited because of his personal situation and the result is you get bootleg projects like the Remembering Makaveli DVD's, which 90% of Tupac fans won't even get to see. Wouldn't it have been better if that footage was compiled together for an official DVD release from the estate? Yes. It would mean everyone who worked on it was properly credited and paid, and the footage would be accessible to fans the world over, not just the very small minority that support bootlegging.

 

[Caesar]

You and all the other suckers that are using the "illegal" argument are being hypocrites. You failed to tell me if you've ever speeded in traffic. Which, whatever you tell me, I will know that you have done once. If you can justify to me why a person who potentially endangers other people's lives is morally empowered to judge on a matter he knows NOTHING about, I'll be thrilled.

Im not making a profit off of somebody elses hard work while robbing them when I speed. It's not about doing things that are illegal, it is about profiting off of someone elses work, harming them, and thus knowingly profiting off of their pain.

Pretty simple concept really.

(Even without being so childish, I can say that the argument about "bootlegging is illegal" is so stupid, if you don't fucking shut it with that bullshit, I'm gonna report this website for the illegal downloading activities going on here. You heard me. Even if it fails, I will make sure I do everything in my power to try and get this site shut down for illegal downloading activity. If you want to be so fabulous about it we can play that game, but we both know that you're gonna lose it because you're running a website that endorses pirated music lol.

It wont be the first time we've been reported by someone snitching trying to harm the site and I doubt it will be the last. The difference between us and Dante's site is that a) we dont host any files in our audio section ourselves, therefore we arent doing anything wrong, b) that section is endorsed by the labels and PRs who send the songs in, and b) we dont make a profit off of any of the material, we dont sell bootleggs, and thus, are not bootlegging and not breaking the law in any way.

Pretty childish of you anyway. "If you dont see it my way Ill go dob on you!"

I'm totally serious so just try me. I know a few channels through which to do that so. I can adapt to another forum, and for such a personal victory it'd be worth it.

You're really defensive over Dante arent you? Curious.

When did you start coming around again? I'm telling you you're wrong. I've already explained in great depth WHY you are wrong. I explained HOW the Tupac remixing game unfolded, and I also presented counter-arguments to your personal opinions about the people on that forum (whom you don't even know but judged based on 6 pages from one thread taken out of a whole fucking forum). You shouldn't take those counter-arguments too lightly and just dismiss them, because I've dealt with a lot of these people in the past, and know them way better than you think you do. You think they're evil, I know they're not, the difference is I actually know what I'm talking about. You do not

Woah woah woah, slow down, I never said anyone was evil. I never judged those "people," I didnt even read the zip file. All I have been saying is that what Dante does hurts other peoples business.

You're like a kid trying to figure out the adult world. That's what you look like to me. And you're obviously gonna take that as an insult or a personal diss. It's just the best way I can explain what I really feel is going on

And to me you seem very one sided and caught up in the situation yourself. Not to mention the fact you seem very fond of Dante and thus have a blindfold when it comes to his actions.

, and most people that were ever deep in the Pac scene will agree with me. I've already been repped for my posts by people that haven't responded in the thread. (By "deep" I mean that you ever even made an impact, or that people even remember you.)

Oh wow boo hoo the Pac scene doesnt know who I am or wont remember me.

News flash = there is more to life than the Pac scene.

I dont want to be remembered for being involved in the graverobbing of another man in anyway shape or form.

 

[Caesar]

I don't agree Preach. And I'd say I was definately deep in the scene for some time. The reason I don't agree is because I have personally witnessed the problems caused by what the bootlegging does.

It is at least partially true that the reason some tracks have been remixed is because of bootlegging. I heard that direct from Johnny and QD, neither of whom were very happy at all about the issue. QD had video footage stolen and bootlegged if I recall.

I say this part as speculation, because QD is a very cool guy and I'm still on friendly terms with him, but I seriously would not be surprised if the "Soon As I Get Home" reel that "mysteriously appeared" just prior to the Pac's Life deadline wasn't lost at all, QD just took steps to make sure the track didn't get remixed by some wack ass new jack. Of course that's just speculation and not massively relevant to this argument, but the fact is that situation wouldn't necessarily have had to happen if it weren't for certain tracks getting bootlegged heavily.

And then you've got people like Gobi, who sold some video footage. Now of course when I met him at his office he seemed to be doing OK, but it seems like he sold the footage because he needed the money. So therefore he was exploited because of his personal situation and the result is you get bootleg projects like the Remembering Makaveli DVD's, which 90% of Tupac fans won't even get to see. Wouldn't it have been better if that footage was compiled together for an official DVD release from the estate? Yes. It would mean everyone who worked on it was properly credited and paid, and the footage would be accessible to fans the world over, not just the very small minority that support bootlegging.

Perfect examples Casey, and with that I will close this thread.

The bottom line is whether you care to admit it or not, bootlegging hurts the people that actually WORKED on the material in question.

Add to the above list the countless songs that The Outlawz have done that Dante has profited off of yet they will get not one cent for. Mopreme, Big Syke, Mac and Rated R too. The other artists Pac worked with who have had their songs leaked.

And the fact that this type of bullshit harms the community as a whole by separating it.

Its obvious that Preach spends a lot of money on his collections, he says he was ripped off $1500, so I am sure he has spent more. It goes to show how "involved" he is in that scene so of course he feels attacked and challenged. Dont take it personally Preach, you're a collector, cool, collect.

At the end of the day, the fact is, the situation Dante created and what he does is harmful and rips a lot of people off, collectors, musicians and artists alike.

Is he a bad person? I doubt it, I doubt he is evil. Sure he can be an asshole but so can everyone, I think deep down he is a good person, but what he does is wrong.

If the hacking has caused him some hardships I feel sorry for him. But still, that doesnt justify what he has done in the past either.

At the end of the day, thats just life, and that goes for both sides of the argument. People get ripped off or fucked over all the time. Musicians, customers, fans, Dante, shit happens to them all. It doesnt however wash them of the wrongs they have done.

Case closed.