You may dislike them, for whatever reason, but they have more of a right to make money off of the music than Dante. The Outlawz, regardless how you feel about them, FEATURE on the songs that are being bootlegged. So even if you take Pac out of the equation, Dante is directly stealing from the other musicians involved in the songs.
This is false. This is 100% false.
- The Outlawz are making way more money off of Tupac's music than Dante is. To even make that comparison is ludicrous. But I get your point. Dante shouldn't be making any money off of him at all is what you're getting at.
- The people that purchased these songs would never purchase any solo Outlawz material, but all purchase everything the estate puts out no matter how shitty it is. The Outlawz are inaffected by what was going on over at that forum in every possible way.
- Most of this music would never see the day of light in the form it has if it weren't from leaks that came as a result of people trying to hack that forum. The people over there were there because they like that music, not whatever is being put out as of now. Which, by the way, reflects how I feel about Tupac's music too. You tell me bootlegging his music is stealing from the producers, fine, I couldn't give a fuck. The producers are assholes that don't want me to hear the music because they are perfectionists, or weird, or whatever else. Like it fucking matters if the song wasn't finished or Pac didn't like it, why can't I hear it if I wanted to? Because that's not the artist's wish? Since when did we start respecting people so much that strangers' opinions suddenly mattered to us? What, since he's an artist, I'm supposed to respect everything he wishes? I want a free car. Respect me bitch! You see where I'm going. You have some sort of obligation to honor Tupac in every possible way, and I don't get why you do that, because that's being a hypocrite. You don't give all the people you meet in life that privilege and I don't know why Tupac is any different to you, but he's not to me. The moral aspect of bootlegging his music is a non issue to me. Just like it was a non issue to the people on the forum.
I will state this time and again. What went on in that forum concerned the people who were there and no one else. They didn't run around flaunting shit to the public, they weren't being smug about it. They kept to themselves and only asked for peace in return. Considering how it financially didn't affect the Outlaws or Tupac's estate, and considering how they weren't being assholes about what they had, I fail to see why people couldn't let them do whatever they were doing.
Hey Ceasar, have you ever gotten high? How would you feel if the neighbour saw you through the window and called the cops? That's fucking queer in my eyes. But it's illegal (and thus, apparently, "wrong"), so..?
One last thing as you seemed to miss a point I was making. A lot of the unreleased Tupac music we got over the years was sourced through Tupac's "friends and family" for incredible amounts of money. The same friends and family that were paid royalties when the songs were eventually remixed and put out (or who got fucked over by the estate, in which case, Dante or whoever else buying a song off them would actually be a good thing). You should keep that in mind. When Pac's friends and family saw it fit to "stab his memory in the back" and sell the shit to strangers, you should be able to accept it too.
It's not up to us though, it doesnt advocate the illegal activity going on.
Some people prefer classic cars to the new ones. But Dante can't just go an ripoff the design and build of these cars, steal the IP (not IP address) behind it, and sell knock offs at a 7000% mark up. His OG vibe mixes are knock offs, they arent even the originals you hold so dear. Regardless, he doesnt own the right to Tupac's work, the producer's work, the engeneer's work, or the other rappers on the track's work.
First of all, as far as the "illegal activity" goes, answer my question about weed (or if you actually haven't, take underage drinking).
That's not what he did. If anything, he didn't rip off any designs. He stole the cars off the docks and sold them cheap. He also sold them at a lower cost than he initially paid.
And people weren't paying Dante for the rights or the ownerships, they were paying him because he was lucky enough to have something they did not, but wanted. It's nothing more than that. It's convenience in practice.
And no wonder the tracks dont appear in OG format on retail releases, they've been leaked and sold and releaked and OG vibe remixed over and over again. The labels view it as too much of a risk to release them. Sure maybet he 50 people on Dante's forum would buy them, but the majority of the public who got most of the songs from the internet would not.
The bootleggers created the situation we are in with the releases in the first place, and now they continue off of them.
It's like when people say the farmacutical companies release viruses to profit off of the medication. Same deal. They create the problem and then make a profit off of the solution, but in this case the solution is the cause of the problem to begin with.
False. The first album released after his death (excluding the 7 Day Theory) was R U Still Down, an album that consisted largely of unremixed (or polished) songs of which more than half were previously unleaked. The "online scene" was also way smaller. And back then, people still bought CDs anyway. The album flopped. Then came Still I Rise which was heavily remixed, and did better. Then came Greatest Hits where most of the new songs that were being handled by Amaru were, again, remixed. This time even more so than on Still I Rise, drastically changing the mood and melody of the songs. Changes is one that comes to mind in particular. With UTEOT, the remixing continued and was taken to new heights, where as the sales were also pretty good.
Most of the music on these albums was previously unheard. The reason these songs were remixed had nothing to do with the original being out there. Amaru representatives have been quoted as saying something very close to "we will update some of the songs with new melodies to make them sound fresher". Afeni has no active part in the creative decisions involved in making the albums they have been putting out. In fact, no one that were ever close to Tupac ever were other than when the original producers were allowed to remix the songs. Which is happened rarely rather than often. I don't believe in the estate. I don't think they know what they are doing, and in my opinion they are handling the remainder of his work terribly. Most of Tupac's music was unfinished anyway. If they finished the songs with lead instrumentation and proper mixing, the songs would sound way better, and the low quality unmastered (and some times unmixed) original version would be obsolete for all but the most hardcore of fans.
The part of the public that gets all the songs on the internet do not differentiate between released and unreleased music. They download EVERYTHING from the internet. They wouldn't buy the CD no matter what was on it so I don't see the merit of that argument. No money is lost there either.
The bootleggers did, in fact, not create the situation we are in. A lot of the assumptions made about the Shakur Estate's agendas are factually wrong as proven by interview statements by Amaru and Interscope representatives. Like that they are remixing songs because the songs are already out there, or that everyone who was involved with making every song that gets put out get paid like they deserve to. If Dante is stealing from Tupac, so is his mother. She's fucking over all his friends by taking them off the songs to not have to pay them more than absolutely necessary, then she calls in favors from people she let have an already released Tupac verse for use on their album (like Trick Daddy) for free to not have to pay for guests. It's a greedy fucking policy they are working by, and to pretend that whoever is in charge of Tupac's music have any more right to be greedy bastards than me or anyone else, is questionable at best. They avoid fan questions they don't want to answer too, because they know that the answer they hold is no good in any world, no matter how perfect it is. But to end this shit and move on to the next one, no, the bootleggers did not create the current situation. It's a common misconception, however.
Mopreme is his step brother. Pac didn't choose to surround himself with Mopreme, he is family. I fail to see how he is an asshole though, or Noble or Napoleon. Are you saying Noble is an asshole because he ripped Dante off for that track? That is JUSTICE. Dante has been profiting off of The Outlawz and Tupac's work for years, and tried to buy another song to sell for $700 or whatever insane price he sells them for, Noble punked him and got a small amount of what he is owed from him. Good on him.
No. I don't remember details off hand, but surely will research them through the duration of this thread. They've done things that left a bad impression time and again to the point where I can't think of anything positive about these people. Mopreme is grumpy and doesn't wanna be interviewed, or when he does he wants money for it. He loves to bitch about how the Estate is owing him money. Since you seem to advocate the "right thing", you should speak to Mopreme about how the estate is treating him. I think you will find a moral dilemma which should make you question this right you believe the Amaru estate to have over Tupac's music. But I guess since they own the copyrights they are justified in fucking even Tupac's family over? (And what I just explained addresses a larger issue that I haven't even touched on in my post - that all these inconsistencies, all this lying to the fans by the estate, and all this bad product they have been putting out, is the core reason why a lot of the fans are so upset with the current state of affairs. And choose to bootleg the music instead. The estate are doing something terribly wrong, and per you they are justified in doing so because.. I don't even remember anymore. I respectfully disagree with that sentiment, however. Noble is greedy and won't answer daring questions about the remixing of Tupac's music because he has no answer. He isn't man enough to say it like it is, that they need more profit from the albums to make things go around. Instead of just shrugs it off and goes on to talk about how Makaveli was their leader. All of the Outlawz are little mice that are too scared to stand up to Afeni. And too greedy to give up their dream of rap stardom to actually do justice to the legacy of the man who carried them for a decade. Napoleon is a coward, and quite possibly the reason Kadafi is dead. One thing is for sure, he too has been showing inconsistend and "quirky" behavior over the years which suggests there is something he is hiding/doesn't want to say. Did you know that Yaki Kadafi's mom dislikes Napo?
So I was not referring to ripping Dante over. Which by the way is another thing. Noble is who now? Since you think he should be empowered to deal justice. You obviously feel empowered yourself to decide what's justful and what's not. Maybe Dante, much in the same manner as you, feels justified in overriding the system and making his own decisions. Considering how things have been handled since Tupac's death, I could see why some people are very annoyed with the estate, and take matters into their own hands. You're on two different sides of a bridge. My main point in my initial post here is that that's fine, though. That happens all the time in life. People disagree, then get over it and move on. In this case, some people couldn't do that and decided to take it out on 50 innocent people that were having fun and doing what they enjoy. They can no longer do that, the fun is ruined. Just like if the neighbour had called the cops on your when you were getting high on the porch. Most people close their eyes and look the other way. If I see a girlfriend and boyfriend argue while walking down the street and I overhear the conversation and feel like the girl is being irrational and stupid I don't rush in there and push my perception of right and wrong on them and fucking break their shit up just because I can't stand that another person does something I don't like. That analogy is just as silly as your pharmaseutical one though, and I know that. Just making a point. So far you have failed to prove to me why the ongoings over at that forum in any way affected ANYONE. And the fact is, it didn't. Someone just couldn't fucking stand the fact that this was happening in the world they live in, and decided they were gonna ruin it for everyone involved. Fucking gay imo, but that's people for you. Greedy and jealous.
He didnt escape to some forum with "friends," he escaped to a private forum where he was selling albums for $700 to customers. He then instilled a higher than thou attitude in them, which you probably have too, that because they are willing to pay hundreds of dollars for a bootlegg they are somehow the real Tupac fans and the only worthy ones of hearing the music. He filled them with this idea to the point that they'd pay all that money thinking they were being loyal to Tupac, when in fact the only person benefiting from it all was Dante (and G Litt or whoever else he was working with). You all seem to even believe that he has more right to profit off of the music than those people involved or their estates.
Show me which album he sold for 700. Highest price I saw in the downloaded rar was 299,99.
You have to get this profit thing out of your head. It has nothing to do with who I think should have the right to profit. I just don't give a flying fuck about it. Bill Clinton could be getting the money for all I care. I will give money to whoever can supply the prodda I want, get it? That's the issue here. Fuck the estate, they are not catering to me. Tupac was though so I dunno what happened.
Lastly, about the holier than thou, come on dude. Again, this is about people not being able to stand a certain things. Just the fact that these things happen get to them. It's like if I stopped and decided if another leaf drops from a tree I'm gonna fucking explode, I've had it with leafs falling from trees. It's not something I can control. So should the leafs stop falling or should I just stop caring, what do you think?
The "holier than thou" attitude was something that happened behind their closed doors. They weren't doing anything to you. If I want to think I'm the fucking shit, like, the coolest dude ever, can't I? I mean, why the fuck do you even care? My assumption is that you are taking it personal. Anyway, this part of your argument is after the fact. It's not the reason they got hacked, and isn't even worth debating.
He ripped someone else off in this thread by sending a blank CD, that is fraud. He made his forum customers pay out the ass for a CD only to down grade the quality and then make them pay even more for the CDQ version they were expecting in the first place; that is fraud.
Where did he do that? Which project did he re-release for his members in better quality, shelling in on it twice? Someone made that claim in this thread, I don't buy it. I know how much the world hates Dante and I have caught so many people lying about details to get sympathy when involved with Dante over the years that I just don't buy it anymore. I guess it's a fair argument though. But he didn't do what you described, so he didn't fraud.
As for the blank CD, SonOfPac should have known better than to get involved with a stranger. The fact that it was CR makes me want to laugh a little (not dissing), but he explained how he was new to the scene, and that's fair. Getting fucked over is an important life lesson and he would have gotten it sooner or later anyway. Anyway, if SOP was fucking Dante over and Dante gave him the actual shit, don't you see the obvious problem from Dante's perspective? What guarantee did Dante have that SOP wasn't just lying like most people do when they get caught? Dante was protecting his interests. Yeah it sucks for everyone involved, but fraud implies consciously committing actions for the purpose of taking someone for something. That's not what Dante did. He caught someone sneaking around on a deal in the last minute, and decided to play it safe. I'm sure it was the smart move, long-term. I think it's sort of black and white to label that fraud, because it technically isn't. It's one of those cases where no law or rule can protect every party involved. Yes, in our flawless system of laws that mean nothing, that can actually happen.
This is a situation he himself created, supply and demand. If the "sellers" didnt know he'd pay that much, and make it back, they wouldnt ask that much in the first place, and would have probably leaked it for free by now out of love and respect (and lets be honest, to promote their names). But instead they know that someone is willing to pay them a mass amount of money. Like I said, Dante's bootleggs created the problem in the first place.
You're assuming here. Because you are wrong. Dante's bootlegs didn't exist up until a year or two ago. The old bootlegs weren't Dante's. And regardless of whose they were, Tupac's music wasn't cheaper back then. In fact, it was probably quite the contrary. The sellers must all have had time machines to go into the future and see what a big business this is. Or, they have common sense and life experience and know that every human being on the earth is anal about at least one thing. For Dante it was Tupac. They probably knew, upon anyone approaching them, that this was a person who would go through some trouble to get what he was after. That, coupled with the fact that Tupac is a celebrity and a good rapper, is why the prices are high. Not because the sellers know that Dante are selling them to his friends. They probably don't. So like I said, no, Dante did not invent bootlegging, and he is not the reason for the prices. Pac rares are actually cheap compared to Bob Marley ones, but that's an unrelated matter.
Also, I don't know what you mean when you say "this situation, he created for himself". I wasn't saying that it's a problem, or that he deserves to make the money back just for paying it. I'm just suggesting that your accusation that he is a thief is wrong, because he didn't actually aquire anything through his deals. We can do the math's again, but I'll just ask for numbers. 50 people sounds like a lot, I didn't see that many people posting in the threads. Are you sure they were 50 people? And 7000 for a song, where is that information from?
But okay, one CD with 4 songs á $7000 for $300, sold to 50 people (assuming your numbers are correct, and assuming all 50 people actually purchased it - each project had an associated "level" with it so I'm assuming people were sitting at different levels, and only a handful of people were actually at the top most level, but for the sake of this calculation I will ignore that assumption).
$28,000 = price of the 4 songs.
$15,000 = profits from 50 sold CDs @ $300
$-13,000 = profits.
Who is the thief? The seller. Who is the seller? Tupac's friend/producer/family/associate. Maybe you should reconsider who you are pointing fingers at, since the whole backbone to your argument is that Dante is stealing money from the people that truly deserve it.
You being a faggot in real life isnt profiting off of someone elses work, or illegal. This is like you telling me if Dante's forum was selling kiddy porn behind closed doors it's alright and it shouldnt have been exposed.
What Dante was doing, exploiting not only Tupac, the estate, and other musicians involved in the music, but also THE FANS, but first creating this environment and then exploiting it, is immoral, illegal, dispicable, and WRONG.
Well, being a faggot is illegal in Iran. Weed is legal in Netherlands. Different people have different laws and the laws are often associated with that culture's spiritual beliefs. Anyone with some common sense are able to see a pattern emerging fro this type of social behavior. The pattern, to me, seems to be that the laws are made according to how we were raised, so as to not have to make too many big changes. Because change means having to think differently, and no one likes that. It's easy to get accustomed to something and keep doing it, but having to always reinvent yourself is tiresome. After you're done with your 20s you've done all the re-inventing you can stomach for a lifetime. That's why old people seem stubborn. You've just fucking had it with all the openmindedness. You can't help who you are, but you can help all the things that annoy you if you proactively do something about them.
The overall point is that, just because a law exists doesn't make it right. And a lot of the laws that indeed exist are prone to being targetted for discussion. Right now the world seems to be ready for marijuana legalization. "Alcohol is legal so why shouldn't marijuana be" is a perfectly logical argument, but it has negative repercussions that we just want to avoid if something like that was actually set in motion. Either both should be legal, or both should be illegal, but most mature people understand why it's a little more difficult than that.
It is this type of intuitive thinking that has landed me on my position. The fact is, I can sit on this position and not be of harm to anyone. That, imo, makes my opinion more justified than yours. Because people of your opinion will commit actions that have a negative influence on the lives of others. And your only reason for causing this negative influence is some mental hic-up that you just can't get over. "It's wrong, it's this, it's that, they're stealing (when in fact they are not as my l33t maths should prove), they are talking bad about the rest of us behind our back". All of those things are your personal feelings, just like wanting to hear Tupac's music are my personal feelings, and you think your personal feelings are more justified than mine because more people agree with you than me. Whatever I say or do, it will only annoy you because you don't want to have to change the way you think about things. You can't say the same because you're not out to just have your fun with like minded people in a setting where you affect no one else. You are out to take someone.
