And there is a difference between commercially distributed music, and unfinished studio scraps. In fact, from a juridical point of view, the former should actually be considered the worse, as the latter example = not intended as a commercial product. They aren't making money off of it, but they also aren't losing any, as these songs would not be put out in that form anyway, and when they would be put out, only 50 people would already have heard them. Meaning it would not impact record sales at all as those 50 people were Tupac collectors and would buy the commercial product in addition to the unreleased music. What you're saying is, you're fine with not paying for the one product the artist actually does see money from, but you are disgusted with people who take part in the unreleased game because they are stealing something that no one will ever miss? I don't understand the logic. I don't think there even is none. (And if that last sentiment is hurtful or offensive, don't take it as such. I will get back to it later in this post.)
Lol.
While your last sentance only contains truth, the overall point you are getting at is based on the assumption that you are right, which you are not. I have demonstrated through logic why Tupac's friends are the actual thiefs that sit with the large sum of money at the end of the day, and that fact destroys this whole argument. Dante is personally looking after Tupac's friends and family by putting amounts of money directly in their pocket that they would receive nowhere else probably. He also took the time out to get to know these people before doing so. It's not like he's looking up numbers in the phone book and calling around asking "so hey, I'm a Tupac fan and I found your number on the white pages. do you have any Tupac songs to sell?". That's not how it works. How would you respond to a phone conversation like that? Dante even kept in touch with some of these people over the years. For example, he has a good standing relationship to the DJ Pac was recording with the night he first got shot, and has had since he first starte his collectors site back in what was in, 1998-99.
I think the best way to explain this is: You're on the "ins" with one grouping within the Shakur legacy family, but like every family, there are inner disputes. There are many sides to the story, and through your affiliation with the Outlawz you are being fed one side of the story. Yaki's mother, the Digital Underground, and a number of other people that were pretty close to Pac and pretty key to forming his life, are on good terms with Dante. They are not on good terms with the rest of the family, however. The situation is bigger than I think you're grasping, and that may be part of the problem. It's not one big loving family of everyone that ever touched Pac. They don't all get along, and they don't all agree on what's best.
Again with the taking money. I won't say too much more about it till you read what I've said so far. I've re-iterated my debating point to that argument several times now.
Yeah Dante is greedy. I wanted those $-13,000.
I remember when Dante's forum started. It was made to fill the void left after Makaveli-Forever closed. It was born from a desire to have a forum much like the one Dante had on his site back in the day. It was a free script from some site, didn't look fancy, had like 10 members, and still was the best 2Pac forum on the net if you wanted actual information, and reliable sourcing. After MF closed, a couple new forums were made. Kilo & gang also tried to make one, and some were aleady established. The fans flew to the different forums, and Dante wanted the mature people who used money to buy things to get the information that most people make a thread and request. He wanted these people because they carry their own weight, and because they will actually contribute something to ongoing discussions. It started as a tight knit community of a gang of Tupac fans that all knew eachother either directly or through affiliation. It was the people that, by most of the scene, were considered the "knowledgable Pac heads". There was no beefing. This was the original conception of Dante's forum, which apparently later spun into a hidden circle. I know because I remember it, I was there. That's before I quit the scene.
The distribution analogy only makes sense because of how you leaned that argument. In the argument it's implied that the relationship between Dante and the people on the forums was a customer/service one. You think that he merely sold his projects there, and they all came there for the projects. I'm telling you, such is not the case. He wasn't "distributing" a product to a group of buyers. Technically that's what he did, but technically you did something illegal when you drank the first time and was underage. It doesn't mean you should consider it as such. He was helping other people because due to global localization and other coincidental factors, he was in a position where he could, and they could not. All he asked in return was that they completed a screening process.
(Which most likely didn't consist of a lot more than being able to not be a retard, and being reliable. And I think when they were going holier than thou it was moreso about the majority of scene being backstabbing fucks (ie. kids that haven't fully understood the significance of being true in your ways yet.)
So basically, being trustworthy and not lieing to make themselves look good for the community. You know, the people that truly don't give a fuck about the community and the "game", but who are fans for their own personal reasons. Because a lot of people get into the Pac shit and start collecting MP3s and sorting them in folders and making everything nice without even listening to the majority of it. This is a typical manifestation of OCD that became a running gag on the Tupac scene years ago.
Okay. So is underage drinking, speeding, smoking weed, drinking in public, calling people bad names, overcharging your bank account, downloading a Lil Wayne album, and a whole host of other things you most likely do/have done. Are we really gonna close our eyes to reality and pretend a law rightfully dictates how everything should be?
.... Answered. You sound offended, which is why it's bothering me that you won't let this go. I'm questioning your motives for even continuing this discussion.
Well then, why have you used "illegal" to debunk my arguments so many times when you self-admittedly don't think it's a justful cause to dismiss something? Let's rewind this thread. I break in and speak my mind against someone I feel are abusing language and leaning arguments in a way that gets your average sheep to jump right on the bandwagon and agree with you. Everything is laid out in such a logical manner with such a nice red herring through it that people agree with you just because your post looks nicely structured, and because the way the sentences flow together feels natural. And because you are using very graphic descriptions that hit spot on.
I intervened in this discussion because I consider Dante a personal friend, and I don't like it when people are slandering my personal friends. Especially when they are doing so based on personal bias/false information. I only argumented for the cause because I don't want him to get in trouble because people are blowing things out of proportions. And also, because if more people knew Dante the way I know him, you would similarly laugh at the demonizing he's been through over the years. You make it out like everything that came to Dante was a result of karma, and Dante has been the bad guy for so long that people just accept that argument without asking if he really started it all.
It went something like this: Dante aquired things others couldn't through being smart and intuitive, and by being decent instead of just asking for rares after merely saying hello on the telephone. Back then, the Tupac scene wasn't so filled with hate. So he shared information, clips, some times songs with people. G Litt too. Then people started asking for more and more. Eventually, when Dante wouldn't give more (either because he had promised not to, because he didn't want legal troubles, or because he didn't have more to give), they started fucking with him and his website. They started harassing him on messengers, and eventually put the RIAA on his back. Which obviously caused him a lot of real life problems. As a result, Dante went into quiet mode and didn't talk about the stuff he had. Still, people said he was being an elitist prick. Then for some reason, he started sharing again over at mrmakaveli (which i previously referred to as makaveli-forever). It lasted for a good year or two, until that forum fell apart. As a result came his forum which turned into a secret circle for people who are equally serious about this as he is. Considering this little story, which is really how this thing got out of control in the first place, I question anybody that suggests that the way Dante's diseased father's memorial website was desecrated was karma. In fact, how can you be such a fucking asshole when you're trying to convince people Dante is an asshole, and not see your own transparent behavior? I don't remember who said it, maybe wasn't you Ceasar, but that person has no respect from me until he admits fault. It's also a pretty inconsiderate sentiment, or do you reckon Dante's siblings, children, his mother, his father's friends and anyone else for whom the memorial page served a purpose deserve the same karma? Because that aspect of that whole incident sort of fell into the shadows behind everyone screaming how much of an asshole Dante is, and how much he deserved it. You people don't have a fucking clue, you're fucking assholes, and you should get an ego check. Seriously.
I guess the first "action" that triggered this whole situation we're in today was when Dante got his first rare track. That's also when the people around him started turning their backs on him. From that point, the two sides (Dante and the public) have been falling further and further apart. Then this happens, and people continue to throw shit at him because they are confusing their jealousy for morally warranted anger with somethign that's wrong. They are letting their feelings get the best of them. And after I respond to such behavior, which I don't condone, you come in here and offer your thoughts. Which is fine. But in doing so, you're implying that you're taking a stance against me. We argue back and forth a little, and now you say "I'm not saying I have a problem with him, or what he's doing, by all means". Okay, fine, then why did you respond to my first response, trying to debate me? Why couldn't you just say that you're not debating anyone, just offering your two cents? You're sitting on the fence throwing shit from a safe distance. That's what I told you earlier that I would get back to. The reason I'm really wanting to debate you on this is that your motivation to post in this thread was to give your random thoughts about something that ultimately doesn't matter very much to you. My motivation for entering this discussion is that a personal friend is being heckled, all while my firm beliefs about something that truly matters to my life are being shitted on by people that know less about the situation than me anyway.
The guy who made this thread wants to spread Pac's music. I can't really argue with him because we come from two different points. He didn't hack the forum so none of my arguments really go out to him. He maybe doesn't care so much about Pac other than thinking his music is RLY dope, he wants rares, I totally see his perspective. I just think the world deserves to hear the truth (as I see it). He doesn't know Dante, I do, so my input should be of equal worth to his. But let's face it. No one wants me to be right. After all these years we can't just stop hating Dante. The scene can't just change over night. It doesn't matter what I say, or what Dante really did. What matters is, he has rare Tupac songs that others want. He doesn't think they should have them. He was the one to aquire them so that's his personal right IMO. If we were talking about commercially released music (if we were then we wouldn't have this problem anyway, but let's entertain it for the sake of the point), I would understand why you think it would be weird for him to hold it back. But the fact is, it's not, so you can't try and apply any commercial market logics to this situation and except it to be realistical. The fact is, rare music is rare music. All diseased artists have unreleased music, and for every artist, there's a handful of people who have way more insight and resources than the rest of the fans around the world. What about that Bob Marley fan that bought a live recording of Bob Marley's for like 10 grand or something. Should we hack him? Does he not deserve it? I remember a thread being made here, and no one said anything. They seemed to all be perfectly fine with the notion that a live recording of Bob Marley's commercially liscensed music that belongs to his respective estate was sold for 10 grand. Because it wasn't Tupac, and because no one wanted that live recording.
People are just being fucking weird about Pac shit and it's causing Dante a lot of problems, and whenever someone dare to make people aware of that, we have the whole "bootlegging is illegal" discussion which is so hypocritical that I don't take people serious when they start with that shit. I'm human myself, and I'm intuitive. I know that's not how your mind works so stop playing yourself like I do.
Lol.
While your last sentance only contains truth, the overall point you are getting at is based on the assumption that you are right, which you are not. I have demonstrated through logic why Tupac's friends are the actual thiefs that sit with the large sum of money at the end of the day, and that fact destroys this whole argument. Dante is personally looking after Tupac's friends and family by putting amounts of money directly in their pocket that they would receive nowhere else probably. He also took the time out to get to know these people before doing so. It's not like he's looking up numbers in the phone book and calling around asking "so hey, I'm a Tupac fan and I found your number on the white pages. do you have any Tupac songs to sell?". That's not how it works. How would you respond to a phone conversation like that? Dante even kept in touch with some of these people over the years. For example, he has a good standing relationship to the DJ Pac was recording with the night he first got shot, and has had since he first starte his collectors site back in what was in, 1998-99.
I think the best way to explain this is: You're on the "ins" with one grouping within the Shakur legacy family, but like every family, there are inner disputes. There are many sides to the story, and through your affiliation with the Outlawz you are being fed one side of the story. Yaki's mother, the Digital Underground, and a number of other people that were pretty close to Pac and pretty key to forming his life, are on good terms with Dante. They are not on good terms with the rest of the family, however. The situation is bigger than I think you're grasping, and that may be part of the problem. It's not one big loving family of everyone that ever touched Pac. They don't all get along, and they don't all agree on what's best.
Again with the taking money. I won't say too much more about it till you read what I've said so far. I've re-iterated my debating point to that argument several times now.
Yeah Dante is greedy. I wanted those $-13,000.
I remember when Dante's forum started. It was made to fill the void left after Makaveli-Forever closed. It was born from a desire to have a forum much like the one Dante had on his site back in the day. It was a free script from some site, didn't look fancy, had like 10 members, and still was the best 2Pac forum on the net if you wanted actual information, and reliable sourcing. After MF closed, a couple new forums were made. Kilo & gang also tried to make one, and some were aleady established. The fans flew to the different forums, and Dante wanted the mature people who used money to buy things to get the information that most people make a thread and request. He wanted these people because they carry their own weight, and because they will actually contribute something to ongoing discussions. It started as a tight knit community of a gang of Tupac fans that all knew eachother either directly or through affiliation. It was the people that, by most of the scene, were considered the "knowledgable Pac heads". There was no beefing. This was the original conception of Dante's forum, which apparently later spun into a hidden circle. I know because I remember it, I was there. That's before I quit the scene.
The distribution analogy only makes sense because of how you leaned that argument. In the argument it's implied that the relationship between Dante and the people on the forums was a customer/service one. You think that he merely sold his projects there, and they all came there for the projects. I'm telling you, such is not the case. He wasn't "distributing" a product to a group of buyers. Technically that's what he did, but technically you did something illegal when you drank the first time and was underage. It doesn't mean you should consider it as such. He was helping other people because due to global localization and other coincidental factors, he was in a position where he could, and they could not. All he asked in return was that they completed a screening process.
(Which most likely didn't consist of a lot more than being able to not be a retard, and being reliable. And I think when they were going holier than thou it was moreso about the majority of scene being backstabbing fucks (ie. kids that haven't fully understood the significance of being true in your ways yet.)
So basically, being trustworthy and not lieing to make themselves look good for the community. You know, the people that truly don't give a fuck about the community and the "game", but who are fans for their own personal reasons. Because a lot of people get into the Pac shit and start collecting MP3s and sorting them in folders and making everything nice without even listening to the majority of it. This is a typical manifestation of OCD that became a running gag on the Tupac scene years ago.
Okay. So is underage drinking, speeding, smoking weed, drinking in public, calling people bad names, overcharging your bank account, downloading a Lil Wayne album, and a whole host of other things you most likely do/have done. Are we really gonna close our eyes to reality and pretend a law rightfully dictates how everything should be?
.... Answered. You sound offended, which is why it's bothering me that you won't let this go. I'm questioning your motives for even continuing this discussion.
Well then, why have you used "illegal" to debunk my arguments so many times when you self-admittedly don't think it's a justful cause to dismiss something? Let's rewind this thread. I break in and speak my mind against someone I feel are abusing language and leaning arguments in a way that gets your average sheep to jump right on the bandwagon and agree with you. Everything is laid out in such a logical manner with such a nice red herring through it that people agree with you just because your post looks nicely structured, and because the way the sentences flow together feels natural. And because you are using very graphic descriptions that hit spot on.
I intervened in this discussion because I consider Dante a personal friend, and I don't like it when people are slandering my personal friends. Especially when they are doing so based on personal bias/false information. I only argumented for the cause because I don't want him to get in trouble because people are blowing things out of proportions. And also, because if more people knew Dante the way I know him, you would similarly laugh at the demonizing he's been through over the years. You make it out like everything that came to Dante was a result of karma, and Dante has been the bad guy for so long that people just accept that argument without asking if he really started it all.
It went something like this: Dante aquired things others couldn't through being smart and intuitive, and by being decent instead of just asking for rares after merely saying hello on the telephone. Back then, the Tupac scene wasn't so filled with hate. So he shared information, clips, some times songs with people. G Litt too. Then people started asking for more and more. Eventually, when Dante wouldn't give more (either because he had promised not to, because he didn't want legal troubles, or because he didn't have more to give), they started fucking with him and his website. They started harassing him on messengers, and eventually put the RIAA on his back. Which obviously caused him a lot of real life problems. As a result, Dante went into quiet mode and didn't talk about the stuff he had. Still, people said he was being an elitist prick. Then for some reason, he started sharing again over at mrmakaveli (which i previously referred to as makaveli-forever). It lasted for a good year or two, until that forum fell apart. As a result came his forum which turned into a secret circle for people who are equally serious about this as he is. Considering this little story, which is really how this thing got out of control in the first place, I question anybody that suggests that the way Dante's diseased father's memorial website was desecrated was karma. In fact, how can you be such a fucking asshole when you're trying to convince people Dante is an asshole, and not see your own transparent behavior? I don't remember who said it, maybe wasn't you Ceasar, but that person has no respect from me until he admits fault. It's also a pretty inconsiderate sentiment, or do you reckon Dante's siblings, children, his mother, his father's friends and anyone else for whom the memorial page served a purpose deserve the same karma? Because that aspect of that whole incident sort of fell into the shadows behind everyone screaming how much of an asshole Dante is, and how much he deserved it. You people don't have a fucking clue, you're fucking assholes, and you should get an ego check. Seriously.
I guess the first "action" that triggered this whole situation we're in today was when Dante got his first rare track. That's also when the people around him started turning their backs on him. From that point, the two sides (Dante and the public) have been falling further and further apart. Then this happens, and people continue to throw shit at him because they are confusing their jealousy for morally warranted anger with somethign that's wrong. They are letting their feelings get the best of them. And after I respond to such behavior, which I don't condone, you come in here and offer your thoughts. Which is fine. But in doing so, you're implying that you're taking a stance against me. We argue back and forth a little, and now you say "I'm not saying I have a problem with him, or what he's doing, by all means". Okay, fine, then why did you respond to my first response, trying to debate me? Why couldn't you just say that you're not debating anyone, just offering your two cents? You're sitting on the fence throwing shit from a safe distance. That's what I told you earlier that I would get back to. The reason I'm really wanting to debate you on this is that your motivation to post in this thread was to give your random thoughts about something that ultimately doesn't matter very much to you. My motivation for entering this discussion is that a personal friend is being heckled, all while my firm beliefs about something that truly matters to my life are being shitted on by people that know less about the situation than me anyway.
The guy who made this thread wants to spread Pac's music. I can't really argue with him because we come from two different points. He didn't hack the forum so none of my arguments really go out to him. He maybe doesn't care so much about Pac other than thinking his music is RLY dope, he wants rares, I totally see his perspective. I just think the world deserves to hear the truth (as I see it). He doesn't know Dante, I do, so my input should be of equal worth to his. But let's face it. No one wants me to be right. After all these years we can't just stop hating Dante. The scene can't just change over night. It doesn't matter what I say, or what Dante really did. What matters is, he has rare Tupac songs that others want. He doesn't think they should have them. He was the one to aquire them so that's his personal right IMO. If we were talking about commercially released music (if we were then we wouldn't have this problem anyway, but let's entertain it for the sake of the point), I would understand why you think it would be weird for him to hold it back. But the fact is, it's not, so you can't try and apply any commercial market logics to this situation and except it to be realistical. The fact is, rare music is rare music. All diseased artists have unreleased music, and for every artist, there's a handful of people who have way more insight and resources than the rest of the fans around the world. What about that Bob Marley fan that bought a live recording of Bob Marley's for like 10 grand or something. Should we hack him? Does he not deserve it? I remember a thread being made here, and no one said anything. They seemed to all be perfectly fine with the notion that a live recording of Bob Marley's commercially liscensed music that belongs to his respective estate was sold for 10 grand. Because it wasn't Tupac, and because no one wanted that live recording.
People are just being fucking weird about Pac shit and it's causing Dante a lot of problems, and whenever someone dare to make people aware of that, we have the whole "bootlegging is illegal" discussion which is so hypocritical that I don't take people serious when they start with that shit. I'm human myself, and I'm intuitive. I know that's not how your mind works so stop playing yourself like I do.
