let's do this again

[Duke]

Humans are able to eat anything, that doesnt mean we should. Using your argument, just because you are able to eat dirt, bark, human waste, etc, you should?

Actually you're able to eat human meat, it's supposed to taste like chicken, so why don't you?

So you win the prize for the biggest bullshit argument yet. We're not able to eat dirt, bark or excrement, dipshit. Those three will make you sick as a dog. I'm talking about the biology of our intestinal tract, not what you are able to physically stuff down your mouth.


And I'd happily consume the flesh of my mortal enemy.

 

[Bender]

Humans are not on the top of the food chain. That kind of thinking is just ignorant humans thinking we are at the top of the world and entitled to do whatever we want.

Lions, tigers, sharks, etc are at the top of the food chains in their environments because they are not naturally hunted by anything, humans do not share the same luxury.

If it wasnt for weapons we would get our ass kicked by those animals, and would have no hope in taking them down. Therefore no, humans are not naturally at the top of the food chain.

interesting post that has some good points, and some noticeable flaws too.

most animals we eat are reared for food, mostly in farms. whether its chickens, cows or salmon, most these types of animals are bread for slaughter. try and put into the same context the breeding of lions, tigers, and sharks; it just doesn't happen, especially not for reasons of food consumption.

to say that humans aren't the top of the food chain is a joke, no animal lives off the consumption of humans, it's rediculous, diet is becoming too ridiculed with the morals of vegetarianism.

i seriously think that all vegetarians should call themselves 'prejudice-dietitians' instead

 

[Duke]

interesting post that has some good points, and some noticeable flaws too.

most animals we eat are reared for food, mostly in farms. whether its chickens, cows or salmon, most these types of animals are bread for slaughter. try and put into the same context the breeding of lions, tigers, and sharks; it just doesn't happen, especially not for reasons of food consumption.

to say that humans aren't the top of the food chain is a joke, no animal lives off the consumption of humans, it's rediculous, diet is becoming too ridiculed with the morals of vegetarianism.

i seriously think that all vegetarians should call themselves 'prejudice-dietitians' instead

lmao @ the last sentence.

The veggy-movement has a good point on one side in that most of the bio-industry is despicable and that eating less meat can be beneficial for your health.

But sadly, most go overboard and will yell that meat is Satan's work. It's at that point where I say "negro, please".

 

[Synful*Luv]

lmao @ the last sentence.

The veggy-movement has a good point on one side in that most of the bio-industry is despicable and that eating less meat can be beneficial for your health.

But sadly, most go overboard and will yell that meat is Satan's work. It's at that point where I say "negro, please".

Yeah. Unfortunately most vegetarians and about 96% of vegans are self-righteous assholes. With an "i'm better than thou" attitude toward omnis and each other. I've heard two people arguing over who was the better vegan because one ate honey and one didn't *rolls eyes* I hate that militant approach to anything. It puts people off even trying to be vegetarian or vegan with all the negativity.

That isn't directed at anyone, just an observation.

 

[Rukas]

I could never go Vegan. I love cheese too much

 

[Synful*Luv]

I could never go Vegan. I love cheese too much

I miss cheese. The fake cheese just doesn't do it. Apparently Daiya is supposed to be really close.. but I can't find it where I live.

HOWEVER, for like a nacho cheese type consistency of "cheese" I like mixing the nutritional yeast with a bit of non-dairy milk. It's REALLY good. I add it to like spaghetti, or tofu scramble, etc. The omni boyfriend likes it too actually

 

[Rukas]

So you win the prize for the biggest bullshit argument yet. We're not able to eat dirt, bark or excrement, dipshit. Those three will make you sick as a dog. I'm talking about the biology of our intestinal tract, not what you are able to physically stuff down your mouth.

Actually I doubt any of those examples would make you "sick as a dog." Tree bark is certainly edible.

Fine, if you want to take everything so literal, I will change my argument.

Why dont you eat roots from the ground?
Why dont you eat bugs?
Why dont you eat worms like our ancestors used to?

Why? Because we evolved past the need to eat stuff like that and worked out there are other alternatives.

We morally evolved past eating human flesh, ate animal flesh instead, and can also evolve morally past that because the alternatives are certainly there and no one can deny that animals suffer for your dietary choices.

And I'd happily consume the flesh of my mortal enemy.

You have a mortal enemy? Someone dislikes you that much?

Would you eat the flesh of human stranger, bread just to be killed and eaten by you?

 

[Duke]

Actually I doubt any of those examples would make you "sick as a dog." Tree bark is certainly edible.

Tree bark, it might be edible. But it doesn't taste that well. Dirt is not good for you and I hope I don't have to explain why eating shit is bad.

Fine, if you want to take everything so literal, I will change my argument.

Why dont you eat roots from the ground?
Why dont you eat bugs?
Why dont you eat worms like our ancestors used to?

I do eat certain root-like things though. I call them vegetables

Bugs, well they aren't really available here. I'm not gonna eat raw bugs because most of those are disgusting and hard to catch, but in places like east-asia there's a wide variety of differently prepared bugs available. I could see myself watching the football match with a bag of fried crickets, why not? In fact I think insects might be a good addition to a Western diet. Or do you have moral qualms about eating bugs as well (which begs a very interesting follow-up question about morality)?


Worms? Because they're gross.

Why? Because we evolved past the need to eat stuff like that and worked out there are other alternatives.

We morally evolved past eating human flesh, ate animal flesh instead, and can also evolve morally past that because the alternatives are certainly there and no one can deny that animals suffer for your dietary choices.

We never evolved "away from" eating human flesh, because we never really did. Cannibalism for food wasn't the norm back then, nor is it ever in nature. Only by exceptions.

Regardless of that, I never disagreed that a lot of bio-industry is being poorly run and that we can do better. I also agree that in a typical Western diet, meat consumption is disproportionately high. But the "suffering animals" as a claim against eating meat in general is a very, very slippery slope.

Would you eat the flesh of human stranger, bred just to be killed and eaten by you?

No, because I place my own kind first. I value human life more than animal life.

 

[S O F I]

How many of you would kill a cow yourselves, skin it and prepare it, just to have a burger?

Would you grow cotton, pick cotton, process it, sew the garment, style it, cut it, assemble it front and back and the sleeves, stitch the hem and the shoulder seams, just to wear a Nike shirt on a sunny day?

No, but you probably wear it any way.

There are many luxuries in life that we enjoy but wouldn't actually go through the process of attaining in the way you described.

 

[Rukas]

Would you grow cotton, pick cotton, process it, sew the garment, style it, cut it, assemble it front and back and the sleeves, stitch the hem and the shoulder seams, just to wear a Nike shirt on a sunny day?

No, but you probably wear it any way.

There are many luxuries in life that we enjoy but wouldn't actually go through the process of attaining in the way you described.

That is beside the point, that is apples and oranges.

My point is that most people wouldnt eat meat if they had to slaughter the animal themselves because when faced with the act of killing first hand our morals jump into play a lot more and it is difficult to take a life. It is traumatic for everyone involved.

Im not talking about what it easier.

Your point is you'd rather buy clothes than make it because you are lazy. I buy clothes, but I wouldnt find it difficult to make them myself. No one would have any moral objection to making their own clothes, the act of doing so certainly isnt traumatic at all like killing is.

So it really is two totally different things, and I know you're smarter than to act like the two are the same thing so lets not kid ourselves here.

 

[Rukas]

Im going to move on from the eat insects thing because I think you've failed to see the original point and we're moving into offtopic territory anyway, and I dont advocate the eating of insects anyway. I dont kill bugs if I can help it at all.

We never evolved "away from" eating human flesh, because we never really did. Cannibalism for food wasn't the norm back then, nor is it ever in nature. Only by exceptions.

Our ancestors did eat our ancestors. A lot of animals also do practice cannibalism. Lions, some monkeys, snakes, sharks, etc.

Still, this is all beside the point, you're arguing side points instead of the main issue; that humans do not need to eat meat to survive, that we can live without it, that we have the means, that animals suffer when slaughtered and that it is morally wrong.

Regardless of that, I never disagreed that a lot of bio-industry is being poorly run and that we can do better. I also agree that in a typical Western diet, meat consumption is disproportionately high. But the "suffering animals" as a claim against eating meat in general is a very, very slippery slope.

How is it a slippery slope? It is the truth.

Anyway Im out for the night, you'll have to excuse me it is my three year anniversary, so someone else will need to take over.

No, because I place my own kind first. I value human life more than animal life.

So do I, but I also value animal life, and faced with healthier and smarter alternatives I just cant justify eating meat.

 

[S O F I]

That is beside the point, that is apples and oranges.

My point is that most people wouldnt eat meat if they had to slaughter the animal themselves because when faced with the act of killing first hand our morals jump into play a lot more and it is difficult to take a life. It is traumatic for everyone involved.

Im not talking about what it easier.

Your point is you'd rather buy clothes than make it because you are lazy. I buy clothes, but I wouldnt find it difficult to make them myself. No one would have any moral objection to making their own clothes, the act of doing so certainly isnt traumatic at all like killing is.

So it really is two totally different things, and I know you're smarter than to act like the two are the same thing so lets not kid ourselves here.

You buy shirts that 10-year-old malnourished kids create in dangerous work environments.

Point is, the moral argument is weak because we all consume things that were created at somebody's suffering and expense. The moral argument for not eating meat is the same one more or less for not shopping at wal-mart or GAP.

I congratulate those who do it, but I get pissed when others try to use it to get me to change my behavior.


Shit, every time a person buys weed or coke in the United States, there's a good chance he/she's contributing to mexican cops getting their heads chopped off.

 

[Jokerman]

I place my own kind first. I value human life more than animal life.

Why? What is the yardstick you use to give the life of one being value over another? Of one type of animal over another? “My own kind?” Is that it? So you don’t believe every living thing is a cousin of every other living thing? Oh, but wait…you do value the lives of your immediate family over that of your human cousins, as does everyone else. So no inconsistency there. But you don’t think it’s okay for your human cousins to be killed just because you value your immediate family more, right? So why is it okay to kill your animal cousins just because you value your human-race ones more? Maybe you think we’re talking apples and oranges here. Is it you think because animals aren’t as intelligent as humans? Is intelligence the yardstick you use for ethical value? If a boat is sinking, should the smartest people be saved first? Is that how we do it or do we try to save the helpless first? Animals feel pleasure and pain and even want to live on some level.

And why do you value a dog’s life more than a cow’s? Both are animals. A dog’s more intelligent? So intelligence is your yardstick? Or you’re used to dogs as pets? Or you’re used to cows as food?

There is a moral foundation of rights, Duke. Animals have value independently of the usefulness they have for satisfying human interests. A life has inherent value logically independent of their being valued as a means by anyone else. All those beings which have inherent value have rights. It is not morally permissible for us to routinely sacrifice their inherent rights to satisfy our needs and wants. To do so is to reduce our value as moral beings.

 

[Sebastian]

And why do you value a dog’s life more than a cow’s? Both are animals.

Dont tell me you value the life of every animal equally?! Dont you value the the life of a dog over the life of a mosquito?

 

[Jokerman]

Dont you value the the life of a dog over the life of a mosquito?

I have a pet H1N1 virus named Sebastian.

 

[Duke]

Why? What is the yardstick you use to give the life of one being value over another? Of one type of animal over another? “My own kind?” Is that it? So you don’t believe every living thing is a cousin of every other living thing? Oh, but wait…you do value the lives of your immediate family over that of your human cousins, as does everyone else. So no inconsistency there. But you don’t think it’s okay for your human cousins to be killed just because you value your immediate family more, right? So why is it okay to kill your animal cousins just because you value your human-race ones more? Maybe you think we’re talking apples and oranges here. Is it you think because animals aren’t as intelligent as humans? Is intelligence the yardstick you use for ethical value? If a boat is sinking, should the smartest people be saved first? Is that how we do it or do we try to save the helpless first? Animals feel pleasure and pain and even want to live on some level.

And why do you value a dog’s life more than a cow’s? Both are animals. A dog’s more intelligent? So intelligence is your yardstick? Or you’re used to dogs as pets? Or you’re used to cows as food?

There is a moral foundation of rights, Duke. Animals have value independently of the usefulness they have for satisfying human interests. A life has inherent value logically independent of their being valued as a means by anyone else. All those beings which have inherent value have rights. It is not morally permissible for us to routinely sacrifice their inherent rights to satisfy our needs and wants. To do so is to reduce our value as moral beings.

I'm saying I value human life *more* than animal life. Not that I don't value animal life at all. You're twisting my words. Very un-Jokerman like. I'm also not offering a rational explanation for feeling this way. It's just the way it is.

"It is not morally permissible for us to routinely sacrifice their inherent rights to satisfy our needs and wants."


This is what humans have been doing for....milennia. Almost everything in our modern society comes at something's expense. You contribute to that also. Get off your high horse.

How is it a slippery slope? It is the truth.

It's a slippery slope when you use it as an argument against eating meat in itself. It's a fine argument when used against the bio-industry.

But what about fried bugs? Morally wrong? Trout farms? Morally wrong? Fish caught out at sea? Morally wrong?


And like Sofi also said, those t-shirts come from underpaid children in Asia. EVERYTHING fucks someone over at some point or another. I'm not condoning that, but it rubs me the wrong way when someone is all moral over one thing like eating meat, but doesn't give a fuck about other, just as important, points.

And all this is not off-topic. Sofi and myself are questioning the integrity and consistency of your moral objections.

 

[Jokerman]

I'm saying I value human life *more* than animal life. Not that I don't value animal life at all. You're twisting my words.

Where did I imply that you didn't value animal life at all? Surely not when I said, "why is it okay to kill your animal cousins just because you value your human-race ones more?" That's clear what I meant. I thought the rest of what I said clearly showed I understood that without my constantly saying "more than."

This is what humans have been doing for....milennia. Almost everything in our modern society comes at something's expense. You contribute to that also. Get off your high horse.

I was just putting up questions for you or anyone to ask themselves, not saying I was perfect on this. If you follow the logic of it, I'm saying, that we have no right, morally, whether you or I or society does it, or has done it for milennia, to do it. And is modern society a good, ideal thing?

 

[Sebastian]

I have a pet H1N1 virus named Sebastian.

It was a serious question.

 

[Casey]

I could never go Vegan. I love cheese too much

That's what I usually say but I've been eating a vegan diet since I've been in the US and OMFG that Daiya Cheese is incredible. I can see why it's won "product of the year" at the Veggie Awards. It's just sooooooooo good.

Daiya Vegan Cheese, Products

We have soy-cheese strips in the fridge as well which I've been using in sandwiches.

If it was as easy to be a vegan in the UK as it is here in the US I'd have done so ages ago.

 

[Jokerman]

Dont tell me you value the life of every animal equally?! Dont you value the the life of a dog over the life of a mosquito?

When it comes to experiencing pain, other animals are our equals, and that's where our moral obligation to them begins. It's not certain insects experience pain. But, yes, we should avoid harming them if possible because a life has inherent value independent of it being valued by anyone else.