I don't totally agree that it's different. The dynamics are different, but the same basic principle applies.
let's do this again
- Thread starter Casey
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Such as?
I think one basic principle in this is the predator-prey relationship. Predation plays a vital role in the ecosystem. It keeps the ecosystem healthy in more than one ways. The food chain is more than "food goes into mouth". I don't need to explain this to you, you know the food chain didn't just pop up, it's a part of the way nature works. The function predation plays is lost in what we do.
Another basic principle in nature and the animal word is necessity. Since you don't need meat, it's a luxury. Luxuries are happy accidents in the animal world, not the norm.
But yeah, how do you see it?
I think one basic principle in this is the predator-prey relationship. Predation plays a vital role in the ecosystem. It keeps the ecosystem healthy in more than one ways. The food chain is more than "food goes into mouth". I don't need to explain this to you, you know the food chain didn't just pop up, it's a part of the way nature works. The function predation plays is lost in what we do.
Another basic principle in nature and the animal word is necessity. Since you don't need meat, it's a luxury. Luxuries are happy accidents in the animal world, not the norm.
But yeah, how do you see it?
Hmm, what I meant with basic principle is probably dominance. Whether this dominance is asserted through the hunt or through the bio-industry, it's still a form of dominance. Can we still call it predation? Maybe not, maybe we can. Is the hunt a necessary factor in predation?
Maybe there's something to say for humans having changed the way we "hunt" for food. Instead of actually hunting an animal, we've domesticated them. Imo you can make a case for calling that a form of predation as well.
But I'm just theorizing about definitions here.
You're correct about the luxury of food these days. But this doesn't apply to only meat. Soy milk is a luxury as well, as is freshly baked bread, as are Javan discs
D). Everything food-related in the Western world is pretty much a luxury product because we can choose our foods freely.
But if we go over to a very poor country, a piece of meat isn't luxury anymore. It's a necessity. It's food.
Also one of the worst beefs (haha) I have with some hardline veggie's (looking at you, Casey)is the following: Some of them claim humans don't need meat nowadays. This is true. But I've also heard claims that "humans weren't intended to eat meat". Such rubbish. This was never the case. We're still omniverous. We'll eat anything. Chimps will eat anything as well.
Ten thousand years ago there was no way in hell you'd sustain a group of people on a non-meat diet. People couldn't afford to be picky back then.
Can the "civilised" world anno 2009 cope without meat (theoretically anyway, I'm not going into issues such as being able to actually grow enough soy)? Yes, we can. Knowledge about nutrition, farming etc has progressed far enough that we could do without.
But in the days of yore? Gtfo.
Maybe there's something to say for humans having changed the way we "hunt" for food. Instead of actually hunting an animal, we've domesticated them. Imo you can make a case for calling that a form of predation as well.
But I'm just theorizing about definitions here.
You're correct about the luxury of food these days. But this doesn't apply to only meat. Soy milk is a luxury as well, as is freshly baked bread, as are Javan discs
D). Everything food-related in the Western world is pretty much a luxury product because we can choose our foods freely. But if we go over to a very poor country, a piece of meat isn't luxury anymore. It's a necessity. It's food.
Also one of the worst beefs (haha) I have with some hardline veggie's (looking at you, Casey)is the following: Some of them claim humans don't need meat nowadays. This is true. But I've also heard claims that "humans weren't intended to eat meat". Such rubbish. This was never the case. We're still omniverous. We'll eat anything. Chimps will eat anything as well.
Ten thousand years ago there was no way in hell you'd sustain a group of people on a non-meat diet. People couldn't afford to be picky back then.
Can the "civilised" world anno 2009 cope without meat (theoretically anyway, I'm not going into issues such as being able to actually grow enough soy)? Yes, we can. Knowledge about nutrition, farming etc has progressed far enough that we could do without.
But in the days of yore? Gtfo.
Duke said:
It wasn't about the hunt, I can see how my pictures must have come across. It was about the ecosystem, the predator, the prey, carnivore, herbivore etc.
Duke said:
Correct. There are some people who are disgusted at even the thought of consuming flesh, and I understand, but they have no case on an intellectual basis. My standpoint is simply that it's wrong to kill an animal for pleasure (eating meat) while there are other options. There are some very basic rights I attribute to living beings. Not purposely and wilfully being killed for a luxury is one of those. If you need meat it's all good, that is nature. The reality that sometimes life is really simple: kill something or die (not kill or be killed, a pig is not going to kill you).
I'm not retro-actively blaming mankind for eating meat. It's all about options. And knowing you have options (which is partly the reason why these issues are being pushed into the media).
If we lived in a vegan society and something happened that caused a famine and we had to start eating meat again that'd be no problem. I'd 'feel' it was bad but I wouldn't think it was bad. In that scenario I'd be in therapy to remove all sympathy for animals.
The moment we became conscious the rules changed. We gained a measure of control that no other living being has. Wildebeasts (not 100% on this but there are other examples) will at times cross dangerous paths when there are safer paths available. Something happened in the past that required them to take dangerous paths, they managed to adapt well enough, and now it's part of their survival as a species, part of what keeps them healthy. The weak get filtered. Saying we should eat meat is like giving a wildebeast a conscious and it starts crossing rivers filled with crocodiles. It does mean that changing your behavior can have an adverse effect on the health of the species but then you can simply refer yourself to modern society. On the flipside, there are the health issues for people connected to the animal industry.
We follow what makes us unique, our ability to guide ourselves through life. It's our choice, not nature. The only time we choose to delegate our decisions to 'nature' is when it's convenient.
This isn't about dying Africans, people on a low income, people with illnesses, this is about you. You have the choice to survive without eating meat but you choose to add a luxury to your life without overseeing the production (The last bit is very important to me. If you say you're fine with eating meat but not meat from mistreated animals you're ethically bound to check where you meat comes from) that results in unnecessary pain and death. Just because you're the 7,00,000th costumer doesn't take away your moral responsibility. I think I have an analogy to show how ridiculous it is to say "well if I quit it won't help" or anything in that nature and think of it as a valid excuse.
A town with a population of 100, all vegans and no meat necessary. 2 people decide to set up a slaughterhouse. 18 people become customers. The other 80 inhabitants are pissed off. 60 customers, 40 people pissed off. 61 customers, 39 people not pissed off. The public perception doesn't decide the way it is. Because you've spent 23 years in an environment where no one saw anything wrong with the way we eat meat and no one holding you accountable (except those pesky environmentalist/hippies/vegetarians/vegans/lonely women/fashionable humanitarians/"eating meat is wrong but I'll eat a cow because I don't feel a connection" vegetarians etc.) doesn't mean you're not responsible. If you happen to walk by a stoning, is it okay to get off one in between the eyes because they were going to die anyway? (Another rock would probably speed up the process, so in a way you'd be a hero). And I don't say that to point any fingers, it's more about people pointing the finger at themselves. Which is what I did, not telling anyone what I wouldn't do myself.
I hold no universal truths about morality but I know that most people live (or claim to) by certain basic principles. What we do with animals and the reasons why we eat meat (except for the people that need it) do not fit in with those basic principles.
Yep.
I mean, I wouldn't carry a dead animal in my pocket, so why would I carry one in my stomach?
Moral/Ethical issues aside (because I feel that Chronic does a much better job of expressing the way I feel about that than I do) the health factor is simply undeniable.
You can't deny the evidence that's right here in front of your eyes. Every vegetarian and vegan on here from myself to Rukas to Synful to Chronic has noted that they feel better health wise since doing so. Every person I know IRL says the same, Rukas mentioned his girlfriend feels better, I know that my wife does. As well as all the other people I know that are vegetarian/vegan.
You meat eaters can sit here and say "blah blah blah I don't get sick and I eat meat" - but you're totally missing the point.
1) You won't KNOW that you feel better as a vegetarian unless you become one. And when I say that, I mean properly become one, I don't mean not eat meat for a week and then say "well i feel exactly the same as I did before" and go back to eating it. I'm talking minimum 6 months to fully adapt to a new diet, flush out all the animal proteins, etc, discover a balance, plant based diet that works for you in terms of getting all the things you need, and then properly analyse the difference.
2) It's not about "not getting sick" - that means you only think about the present. It's about being healthier overall, having a better immune system so you are less susceptible to sickness overall, not slowly building up heart disease and cancer over long periods of time.
The thing is, you meat eaters can bullshit all you want. Those of us on here who have actually become vegetarian, we know. You can't deny it, because you don't know. Your points of view are just speculation and based on your opinion coming from one side whereas we've been on both sides, hell we've lived the majority of our lives on the other side, therefore we are qualified to make educated statements that take more into consideration than you do.
Because thats not the accurate place (pocket) for a dead animal?
Lets face it:
Morally or ethically speaking, vegetarians win this argument. There is just no way to defend killing an animal just for the sake of "luxury", as Chronic put it.
In the end it all comes down to what SOFI basically said: Meat eaters just dont care about how the meat gets on the table. Or they never started thinking about it in the first place.
The health point is a meaningless one. It will have no great affect on my life if i eat meat or not.
It seems that you and Rukas stopped eating meat because you felt bad for how the animals were treated. At least, it was one of the reasons.
It can't be that you want to take care of your body because there's another vice (or two) you indulge in that's keeping that a problem.
But most meat eaters don't try to convince vegetarians to start eating meat.
Like Sofi said - Vegetarians became vegetarians because they:
1) Felt that animals were suffering because of it
2) Thought that the meal they were eating was a "rotting, disgusting flesh".
3) Thought that they'll become healthier - that means automatically starting a healthier and more balanced diet + psychological effect of thinking that they are way healthier thus they really do feel healthier.
Most meat eaters don't even connect the dots between a living animal and a steak. They don't even realize that their food was alive. They don't see any technical difference between a hamburger and a potato (except that they find hamburgers way more tasty).
Also, to get this straight - my elementary school biology book makes it clear that humans are on top of the food chain.
"Vegetarian" animals are on the very bottom :moody:
Like Sofi said - Vegetarians became vegetarians because they:
1) Felt that animals were suffering because of it
2) Thought that the meal they were eating was a "rotting, disgusting flesh".
3) Thought that they'll become healthier - that means automatically starting a healthier and more balanced diet + psychological effect of thinking that they are way healthier thus they really do feel healthier.
Most meat eaters don't even connect the dots between a living animal and a steak. They don't even realize that their food was alive. They don't see any technical difference between a hamburger and a potato (except that they find hamburgers way more tasty).
Also, to get this straight - my elementary school biology book makes it clear that humans are on top of the food chain.
"Vegetarian" animals are on the very bottom :moody:
Not trying to act like an awkward tit or anything, but i was a veggie for 7/8 years and it never made me feel any healthier at all.
That’s because most meat eaters did not start out as vegetarians, then learned about how bad being a vegetarian was for their health, the planet, their souls, etc. They just blindly accepted whatever their blindly accepting parents and society offered them, and developed a taste for it. But vegetarians do learn those things about meat-eating and then want others to be healthy, save the planet and their souls. Meat eaters have no issues to promote concerning meat eating. All they got is: "I like what I like." “I don’t believe it’s that bad for me.” “I don’t care that much about pigs or cows or chickens.” “Tractors and farm machinery pollute the planet too.” “Our ancestors ate meat and we’re omnivores.” Do any of those make you want to convert someone to meat eating? Meat eating doesn’t create many idealists.
Yet our teeth are flat as opposed to pointy and sharp and thus are better at grinding plants and grains than tearing meat, and our long digestive tracts resemble those of herbivores. We secrete a special enzyme designed to break down plant foods. Carnivores, on the other hand, have no such enzyme and possess short digestive tracts for getting rid of meat quickly before it putrefies. So, we can eat meat but we are better designed for plant foods and not the other way around.
imagine how boring a career as a chef would be if everyone was vegetarian.
plus all the butchers would be out of employment, the cows would need bigger fields before they start to eat up all the veggie crops ... then all the veggies would be like "damn, that cow just ate my corn, lets butcher it!"
plus all the butchers would be out of employment, the cows would need bigger fields before they start to eat up all the veggie crops ... then all the veggies would be like "damn, that cow just ate my corn, lets butcher it!"
I was going to bring up the point about the digestive tract.
There are TONS of options of foods for vegans and vegetarians.
Not eating any animal products at all has made me THINK before I eat. I can't say that's a bad thing. I make a conscious decision about what goes into my body now vs just whatever tastes good and is fast like before, and in the mean time.. I can go to bed with a clear conscious at night. And I have felt a change physically since I changed how I eat. Not sure if that happens for everyone.. but it did for me.
What vegans eat:
There are TONS of options of foods for vegans and vegetarians.
Not eating any animal products at all has made me THINK before I eat. I can't say that's a bad thing. I make a conscious decision about what goes into my body now vs just whatever tastes good and is fast like before, and in the mean time.. I can go to bed with a clear conscious at night. And I have felt a change physically since I changed how I eat. Not sure if that happens for everyone.. but it did for me.
What vegans eat:
Just curious... what kind of meat is in a regular peanut butter chocolate cake? Is there a certain ingredient that maybe includes the fat or something of an animal in the regular one? Just curious.
When you guys went veggie did you start to watch your diet more and look at what you were eating? Did you go from a not so healthy diet tha included meat among other things and then to a clean diet that didn't include meat? What I'm trying to get at is was meat the only factor? From what I've seen and heard, when people go veggie they eat more healthy across the board not just with meat. I think that plays a bit of a factor in you feeling more healthy.
Personally I eat a healthy diet that includes meat(oxymoron? maybe), chicken and fish mainly. I'll have a burger every now and then but I don't eat em much. I watch my portions and what have you. Unlike most people who eat meat, or Americans for that matter, the meat isn't the main thing on the plate. It is sometimes but whatever. I'm healthy, that's what my doc says at least. Blah blah blah I think a healthy diet can include meat, if you eat the right amount.
Maybe I would feel a little better if I went veggie but I'm not willing to sacrifice the luxury of taste and all that. I'm human and I make choices for myself. For example I think not all things are created equal. I'll kill a spider, eat an animal, and pet a dog. That's how I choose to live MY life. I can really care less about how an animal that I'm going to eat is killed, I'd like it to be as humane as possible, in the end all that matters is that it ends up on my plate and then in my tummy. Some people don't see it that way but I'm ok with something being killed in order for me to enjoy myself. It's all part of the game
When you guys went veggie did you start to watch your diet more and look at what you were eating? Did you go from a not so healthy diet tha included meat among other things and then to a clean diet that didn't include meat? What I'm trying to get at is was meat the only factor? From what I've seen and heard, when people go veggie they eat more healthy across the board not just with meat. I think that plays a bit of a factor in you feeling more healthy.
Personally I eat a healthy diet that includes meat(oxymoron? maybe), chicken and fish mainly. I'll have a burger every now and then but I don't eat em much. I watch my portions and what have you. Unlike most people who eat meat, or Americans for that matter, the meat isn't the main thing on the plate. It is sometimes but whatever. I'm healthy, that's what my doc says at least. Blah blah blah I think a healthy diet can include meat, if you eat the right amount.
Maybe I would feel a little better if I went veggie but I'm not willing to sacrifice the luxury of taste and all that. I'm human and I make choices for myself. For example I think not all things are created equal. I'll kill a spider, eat an animal, and pet a dog. That's how I choose to live MY life. I can really care less about how an animal that I'm going to eat is killed, I'd like it to be as humane as possible, in the end all that matters is that it ends up on my plate and then in my tummy. Some people don't see it that way but I'm ok with something being killed in order for me to enjoy myself. It's all part of the game
The reason most people eat meat is because it is easy.
I guarantee you if you had to slaughter the animals yourselves most of you would find alternatives pretty quickly, because killing any conscious being is rather traumatic.
How many of you would kill a cow yourselves, skin it and prepare it, just to have a burger?
I guarantee you if you had to slaughter the animals yourselves most of you would find alternatives pretty quickly, because killing any conscious being is rather traumatic.
How many of you would kill a cow yourselves, skin it and prepare it, just to have a burger?
Coming from an Eastern European peasant background and seen how things work on farms... I've got to say, these people (like my uncles, aunts and cousins) are not squeamish. After having to kill the pig, cow or chickens on their own and not be shaken up takes a lot of mental strength... then again, it's different for them. They're poor and whatever they have on their farm is their whole life, so I don't judge them. They do what they can to survive... not like Communism gave em much of an education to do something else.
I'm pretty sure if they could choose to do something else, they would. At least I know my uncle would, I've seen what he looked like after slitting a pig's throat, his hand would even shake at times afterwards, and this is coming from someone that served in the war.
Anywho, that cake looks awesome...
I'm pretty sure if they could choose to do something else, they would. At least I know my uncle would, I've seen what he looked like after slitting a pig's throat, his hand would even shake at times afterwards, and this is coming from someone that served in the war.
Anywho, that cake looks awesome...
I know for a fact if I had to kill an animal for myself I wouldn't eat meat. Mostly b/c I'm a pussy like that.
That being said, since May I have upped my veggie and fruit intake a thousand fold. I can see how you feel lighter on your feet w/o meat. Since I've stopped eating fast food, junk food and drinking pop I feel much better than i ever have in my life. Now, I know everyone says this and no one else believes it, and I think this is because you don't realize it until you adjust your diet. The only meat I eat these days is chicken and fish, usually tuna, cod, pickeral, that kinda shit. I have the goal of becoming a vegetarian, but that goal is getting put on hold until i graduate.
I'm sure there are alternatives that could be found quickly. But that's not the reality of what we live. You could say more with that but hold up
If I had to farm or hunt I'd starve, not sure but whatever. It's easy to get any type of food, regardless if it is meat or not.
Killing an animal is a lot different than picking a fruit or vegetable but I'm not doing either so whatever. Both of em are easy for me
If I had to farm or hunt I'd starve, not sure but whatever. It's easy to get any type of food, regardless if it is meat or not.
Killing an animal is a lot different than picking a fruit or vegetable but I'm not doing either so whatever. Both of em are easy for me
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