Rolling Stone Honors Rappers

CalcuoCuchicheo · Apr 29, 2005

Well I can accept that you don't think it's fair for any artist to be there twice.

He may be the most successful rapper ever but how much influence has he had on music in general?

And Eminem is more recognizable than Tupac here - & I'm in the Western world. That said, I do know that Tupac is known in a lot of Third World countries while I'm not so sure about Eminem on that one.

Nah, Biggie's Life After Death album went diamond first - this argument has been went over a few times on this board.

Being the 'realest' doesn't mean shit in any genre bar rap so that is a bit irrelevant.

Well, he's not active, his music is. But is it as active as other dead artists? Elvis gets more spins over here, as do the Beatles (& they're a couple of members down). I hear Queen more often etc, etc.

Shit, Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On" is still relevant today. Any artist worth his salt has songs which are relevant today.

What qualifies you to get a place in the Top 20 is an outstanding contribution to the whole face of music. You might've changed the musical landscape or you might have put out classic after classic.

Btw, I'd doubt that many outwith rap would consider more than one - if even that - Tupac album classic.

H.E. Pennypacker · Apr 29, 2005

Define "greatest." Once we settle on a definition, I will argue with you. I cannot fathom how a magazine can go out of its way by publishing an article on "the greatest" musicians. Since when did everyones' brains become one and the definition of "greatest" have one meaning?

This is so pitiful, I am amazed. I cannot believe that we live in a world with different religions, cultures, beliefs, races, and there's still a magazine that portrays mankind as having one mind? Sure.

I don't mind someone going "that's my favorite artist" but I do have a problem with a magazine, a government, or anything that works as group come together and say this or that is the greatest. Get the....out of here. What's next? The government will be telling us what the greatest food of all time is?

Volattille (Illuminate), Imagine is better than anything Pac did? I like the song, and its pretty nice, but it can hardly qualify as a song. It has a great chorus, but come on...what else is there really? Its probably like two minutes long filled mostly with the beat.

CalcuoCuchicheo · Apr 29, 2005

^
Imagine is hands down one of the greatest songs ever constructed, imo.

haunted · Apr 29, 2005

CalcuoCuchicheo said:

Who is it by?

CalcuoCuchicheo · Apr 29, 2005

haunted you gay chatline cruising mofo.....stop.

haunted · Apr 29, 2005

CalcuoCuchicheo said:

Whos it by? And dont call me gay, white boy.

CalcuoCuchicheo · Apr 29, 2005

Why don't you go back a page & read our posts & then you'll see, like you don't know, black boy........now why does that sound racist but what you said didn't?

2PacThug4Life · Apr 29, 2005

eminem above pac, that is ridiculous. pac should at least be in tha top 50, NWA is quite low.

jason_g_718 · Apr 30, 2005

See, now how easy was that? All we have to do is just agree, or agree to disagree.

I'd say quite a bit. When you look at his own genre, virtually every rapper coming out anymore mentions how they've been impacted by Pac. Rappers are ALWAYS giving him props and shout outs anymore. Be it incorporating his name into your song, quoting him in a lyric in your song, borrowing song concepts (Bonnie and Clyde 03), sampling his songs, having Nate Dogg sing a hook on your song that's almost identical to a hook 2pac wrote, wearing Makaveli Branded in video shoots, magazine shoots, at parties where they know the cameras will be flashing, at awards shows, wearing his clothing and then performing one of his songs while basically dressing like him (Nas). On top of that, he has recorded songs with many artists outside of the rap genre, which tells me that he had some decent impact on those outside of rap. He recorded with Madonna and Alanis for sure. I've heard people such as James Taylor call him a genius.

OK, this one I MIGHT have to give you, but it's really not proveable because neither of us have the means necessary to prove our case. Although, being that Eminem is the only successful solo white rapper in the game, you might be right. Either way, considering this, I would have to say that Pac and Em in either order are the two most recognizable rappers in the world.

OK, because I don't want to be misunderstood, I'm telling you ahead of time that I'm not trying to be a dick here, merely I'm just being reasonable. Do you have a way to prove that? I mean, I said myself I wasn't completely sure, but I do know Pac was ONE OF the first rappers to go diamond. I'd actually be surprised if it was Biggie.

I disagree. For the most part, I think people take the realism of music relatively serious. Eminem said himself "music is a reflection of self". People know that's true. So, that said, people know if the artists music is fake, the artist is fake. And yes, how "real" or "fake" an artist is CAN affect their popularity and sales.

Example: Milli Vanilli. At their peak they were hotter than N Sync. They may not have sold nearly as many records, but they were hotter. However, when the record skipping incident exposed them as frauds, what happened? Yeah....case closed.

Same thing with Vanilla Ice. We all know what happened when he was exposed as a fake. So...tell me now that an artists authenticity has no affect on their popularity or sales.

C'mon, dogg, you know that's what I meant. You know I didn't mean that literally. For real, let's be honest here. His music has done such a good job of keeping his legacy and name alive that with the exception that you don't see him doing interviews on TV or doing concerts, it IS almost like he's still alive. He's still dropping albums, and not only dropping them, but the messages in songs he wrote 10 some even 13 years ago are STILL relevant today, he was still appearing in movies AFTER his death, he's "doing collabos" with current day artists (Trick Daddy, Eminem, Benzino, Daz), he narrated his own documentary in the last year, he is still appearing on the charts now and then, of course he's getting radio play, colleges are using his interests and his writings as material for college courses at some of the most prestigious colleges in America, some people are STILL claiming that his music causes kids to do bad things, and he's still appearing in magazine and newspaper articles as the focus of the article. So, consider all of this and tell me that minus TV appearances and concerts it's not like he's still alive?

And to be honest, with the technology they have today, I wouldn't be against going to a 2pac concert that would feature a full, life-sized hologram of Pac on the stage.

First of all, I don't know where "over here" is. Considering your mention of The Beatles and Queen, I'm guessing maybe England? Either way, I don't know what stations are like where you're at, but in America radio stations are delegated to certain subjects. Here (America) you will NEVER hear Elvis on the same station as 2pac or Ozzy on the same station with Garth Brooks. And I know that in my area Pac gets quite a bit of play. Probably on par with any other dead musical legend. Afterall, that is ONE aspect of being a legend, is it not? Having radio rotation almost a decade after your death?

Yeah, the point is that any legend is going to be getting radio play a decade, two decades after that legendary song in question was released. Take someone like Lou Bega, creator of "Mambo #5". He is certainly no legend and where is he? Don't hear him on the dial anymore. Do you still hear songs on the radio from the 80's metal band Teezer? Nope...cuz they aren't legends. Now, I'm not saying that artists who aren't legends don't get radio play anymore, but legends will be getting CONSISTENT radio play 10, 20 years after.

I agree, and I think Pac more than fits that.

I doubt many people outside of the country genre would consider any Garth Brooks' albums as classics, but I have several family members who are country fans and think some of his are.

I would say most people who aren't a particular fan of a certain genre would not consider an album by one of the best artists of that said genre as a classic even if fans of the genre say it is.

jason_g_718 · Apr 30, 2005

So, based on your comments here, I would conclude that it is impossible to ever come to agreed upon terms which constitute an artist as a legend. I mean, afterall, as has been said in here 20 dozen times, "quality of music lies completely in the ear of the listener". I guess the same could be said about the musician. However, in an attempt to help you out a little, I went to Rolling Stone's website and I copied the forward they printed in the second half of this 2 part list. Here it is, don't know if it will help:

So...now to agree with a group of people is to have "one mind"?

Dude, don't get bent out of shape, damn. Someone is having withdrawals... As long as music is around, as long as there is professional sports, as long as there are movies, as long as there are books, as long as there are entertainers, comedians, actors, actresses, writers, producers, movie directors...there will ALWAYS be a list of "the best" as put together by the writers of that particular media forum. I don't understand what your problem is. Nobody has written this list in stone and said "it's fact". You have a right to disagree.

one mc on dj · Apr 30, 2005

Some mod edit jasons post...what he is trying to say is:

Jason:
it's a matter of taste same counts for a magazine

Hurts:
....It's just depends on how serious you take your own opinion...Copying an opinion out of magazine is not really urs so you don't take ur own opinion serious...

H.E. Pennypacker · Apr 30, 2005

Their requirements means nothing. Absolutely nothing. Why? Because to someone else, such and such does not meet such and such requirement. The problem with their requirements is that there's a room for disagreement. There's no way to say "this shall be it, and it must be this way." I will accept that Earth revolves around the Sun, but I will not accept their list, because the Earth thing is a fact, and their list is not.

The members of the panel agree with eachother. The general public does not. By being a public magazine, they portrayed the list as being the opinions of the general public.

Call me pragmatic. Say that I don't like being told what to believe or say. Its just that I am not willing to accept their list as the views of society. Their "panel of experts" is bogus. Then we can go into what qualifies one as an expert. Then we go into disagreements between experts, and so on.

I am willing to accept that Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. I am willing to accept that Pele is the greatest soccer player of all time. I say this because the MAJORITY of people have gone with these opinions. They're still opinions, but this is what is held by the MAJORITY. Let me ask you this...does the Rolling Stones magazine represent the majority? Not at all. There's no survey or anything to suggest that they represent the majority.

Like I said, such a list should begin with "This is the opinion of the panel and none other. We cannot guaruntee that your opinion will be the same." If they said that, I'd be fine with them. However, they didn't. If someone says "Gatorade is the best drink out there," we know its the opinion of the person, but what if a president goes to another country and says the same thing? People will take it as him representing his people, and they'll conclude that Americans love Gatorade.

I believe they should state clearly that is only their opinion. If they don't, they're portraying it as everyone's opinion.

Advocate · Apr 30, 2005

thank god 50 didn't make it

jason_g_718 · Apr 30, 2005

Um...if you didn't notice, it wasn't the staff at Rolling Stone that made this list. It was other musicians. This list of musicians was compiled by their colleagues. Other musicians. That is why all the articles on each musician who made the list was written by another musician. Which in my opinion, makes the list more relevant than any other.

Not necessarily. When you have that many artists voting on the 100 greatest musicians of all time, there's bound to be a lot of disagreeing. Sometimes it's not so much agreeing with each other rather than comprimising w/ each other.

The general public does not what? Agree with the list? Or agree with each other?

No, they didn't. Unless they wrote in the forward "these are the 100 greatest musicians as voted on by our readers", they're not portraying it as anything of the kind. They're portraying it as exactly what it is. A group of the 100 greatest musicians as voted on by their colleagues.

They're panel of experts is "bogus"? Says who? You? Joe Schmo sitting in his basement? Sally Straddle trolling the message boards at 3am?

As for what qualifies one as an "expert", who is a better expert at who the best musicians in history are, than other musicians? When your name is Elton John, I think your opinions as to who the great musicians of our time are is a lot more relevant than someone who works as an accountant and is an avid music fan.

Why? That's not factual. I happen to agree with you that he is, but it's not factual. It's all opinion, and subjective opinions at that.

The majority of what people? Basketball fans? Americans? White people? Black people? People world wide?

And how many people have you discussed this with to know the "majority" of "the people" say that? I mean, like I said, I happen to agree with you about Jordan, but since you took your attitude at the start of this post, I decided to play devils advocate throughout the post.

Where is the survey that says they don't?

Like I said, when you're compiling a list of the greatest musicians of all time, there is NOBODY on earth whose opinion is more relevant than other musicians.

I think you've come off as a complete idiot in this post. I think you've looked to to nothing other than use this thread as a way to spew opinions about how you don't like to be told what to think.

jason_g_718 · Apr 30, 2005

Advocate said:

It was bad enough they chose him to write the article on 2pac.

kman_69 · May 1, 2005

8) Little Richard by Little Richard

LOL!

jason_g_718 · May 1, 2005

kman_69 said:

Yeah, I found that quite hilarious as well. :thumb:

H.E. Pennypacker · May 1, 2005

I read and I noticed.

I was saying that the list is not necessarily representative of the views of the public.

Who I am has nothing to do with this discussion because I never put my opinion on anyone else and never claimed it was that of anyone else but me. Their panel of experts is nonsense because to each his own. Everyone has his idea of what an expert should be. Now, I am not contesting the possibility that these people were experts. But, really, what makes them experts? The fact that they're older than me? The fact that they've spent time in a studio? The fact that they've spent a lot time with musicians?

I mean, how do you become an expert? In biology, you'd become one by reading, reading, and more reading. After you're done, you can call yourself an expert if you become a leading person in your field, but what about music?

Music was created for nothing other than to enjoy it. You listen to a song and that's it. It can't be more than that. These people have turned it into math, science, and other definite subjects. They've taken out the whole purpose of music.

Not being a musician does not mean you're any less qualified to comment on a musician or any less of an expert. Lets say that I am a great musician but I don't have the money to make it big. Doesn't that mean that I am still a great musician? And therefore, I can still critique a musician?

The fact is that the people on this panel may not be experts at all. Besides, how can you be an expert at something that's totally based on opinion? All I see is that these people made it in the music business. That could because they were lucky and others weren't. Their luck does not mean that they know any more than anyone else.

For Michael Jordon, basbetall fans across the world. The same for Pele, except for them being soccer fans.

I could be wrong because I've never conducted a scientific survey. If you read my post, I said "I am willing to accept ...."

Your logic is flawed. It does not work like that. Before they can be taken as representing the majority, there will have to be evidence to back that up. Its not the other way around. I don't show you anything to prove that they're not. If it was as you suggest, this world would be upside down. I'd be an expert unless someone proved me wrong. Come on, you know that logic is flawed, so don't bring it up.

You better believe that my word as a Tupac fan is more relevant than what some Pop musician said. After all, am I not the person who spends considerable amount of time learning about Pac, and listening to his songs? I don't care what Simon from American Idol has to say about him, eventhough Simon spent a lot of time in a studio and with many musicians.

I'd like to know who reviewed Pac. Shouldn't they have gone to the Outlawz to review him since they knew him better than anyone on the list of "experts." See, I would have taken the words of the Outlawz because they've spent a lot of time with him, and they knew more about Pac and his music than anyone on RS's list!

Listen, I don't need to be insulted by a 28 year old who raps in his basement thinking he'll become a great rapper, while at the same time arguing with kids more than ten years his junior.

roadsense · May 1, 2005

I wish my skin colour was white, my life would be so easy.

killahill187um · May 1, 2005

roadsense said:

how it would be so easy

Rolling Stone Honors Rappers

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