Reason why eminem is a genious!

[jason_g_718]

which is a damm shame in my eyes.

people will start thinking hes better cuz hes sold more

I think The Backstreet Boys dispelled that myth a while ago.

Besides, the only people that think sales is an accurate representation of talent are kids, specifically girls, or should I say mostly girls between 13-19.

However, one thing that can't be ignored is that Eminem, despite his short comings, IS going to be a legendary rapper, he HAS made history and he DOES have talent. He has enough talent to make him one of the most successful rappers ever and he deserves it.

 

[Kevsta2004]

I wish em never signed with dre his old skool beats on infinite where the shit even though his voice needed working on cos he sounded like a lil kid dre's turned him into his personal monopoly whore now

 

[jason_g_718]

I too had heard this but really, Dre's personality could hardly clash with 2Pac's in 2004 when one of them was dead.

LOL, smart ass...

My point was that it seemed to me that while Dre respected and maybe even admired Pac as a rapper and artist, I don't think he cared too much for Pac as a person. Since Dre left Death Row he has mellowed BIGTIME. He probably had started before he left DR, because the Dre that choked Dee Barnes and was on a house arrest for months while he was first blowing up solo with The Chronic would have gotten along great with Pac probably.

I think Dre is a very laid back guy and he's not down with the hyper stuff and more than anything, Pac not only wasn't afraid of confrontation, but he would often look for it. While I won't say Dre is afraid of confrontation, I think he'd rather avoid it for as long as possible.

 

[CalcuoCuchicheo]

Am I the only sick of hearing about eminem whenever I turn the TV all it is fuckin gay boy soldiers all the god damn time
It's a shit song an so is mosh everyone know's he only did it for more publicity cos of the election immortal technique is the rap politition not him

'Gay Boy Soldiers' LOL!!

That song is getting on my nerves but not because it's wack, just because I'm hearing it all the time. It's quite a decent beat, decent hook, & Eminem has some nice lyrics to go with a nice flow. But like I say, it's played way too much & add to that the fact that the potentcy of the song is partially lost when you see kids dancing to that shit & you know half the fucking world don't have a clue what he's talking about. Pisses me off.

And I never did like Mosh. I think Eminem was out of his depth there.

Anyways, 'Gay Boy Soldiers'......LOL!!

 

[CalcuoCuchicheo]

My point was that it seemed to me that while Dre respected and maybe even admired Pac as a rapper and artist, I don't think he cared too much for Pac as a person. Since Dre left Death Row he has mellowed BIGTIME. He probably had started before he left DR, because the Dre that choked Dee Barnes and was on a house arrest for months while he was first blowing up solo with The Chronic would have gotten along great with Pac probably.

I think Dre is a very laid back guy and he's not down with the hyper stuff and more than anything, Pac not only wasn't afraid of confrontation, but he would often look for it. While I won't say Dre is afraid of confrontation, I think he'd rather avoid it for as long as possible.

All true.

This is part of what I meant in no. 1, that it would be awkward. Dre doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to at this stage in his career, & I think he knew it would be a bit false if he produced LTTG given there relationship which you've pretty much hit on the head IMO.

 

[jason_g_718]

I wish em never signed with dre his old skool beats on infinite where the shit even though his voice needed working on cos he sounded like a lil kid dre's turned him into his personal monopoly whore now

Are you on crack?

Dre has given him some of the best beats ever.

 

[jason_g_718]

All true.

This is part of what I meant in no. 1, that it would be awkward. Dre doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to at this stage in his career, & I think he knew it would be a bit false if he produced LTTG given there relationship which you've pretty much hit on the head IMO.

It really is a shame though, cuz a 2pac/Dre team would be THEE DREAM TEAM of all dream teams. The greatest rapper in the history of rap rapping over beats from the greatest producer ever.

Hell, California Love and Can't C Me are fucking flawless.

 

[CalcuoCuchicheo]

Are you on crack?

Dre has given him some of the best beats ever.

I think Kevsta2004 just prefers the old school feel of Infinite to the more 'poppy' shit he's done under Dre.

That said, obviously Eminem's done some of his best 'dark' work under Dre, but I would say that, under Dre, regardless of whether it was Dre's influene or not, some of Eminem's penchant for flipping interesting verbals got lost in favour of flipping extravagent verbals.

On the whole though, working with Dre has helped Eminem raise his overall game.

 

[CalcuoCuchicheo]

It really is a shame though, cuz a 2pac/Dre team would be THEE DREAM TEAM of all dream teams. The greatest rapper in the history of rap rapping over beats from the greatest producer ever.

Hell, California Love and Can't C Me are fucking flawless.

Yeah, but I don't think Dre could've put himself into the mindstate needed to work with 2Pac & vice versa. Dre would have had to quicken up & suppress his fetish for perfection & 2Pac would have to have learned patience & learn to hold back where he would usually give a producer a verbal ass whooping.

I agree with 2Pac & Dre being the G.O.A.Ts of rapping & producing respectively.

California Love was pretty much perfect - Dre had some nice lyrics written for him & he put his voice to good use with a tidy flow. 2Pac, while losing his usual conscious lyrics for this 'party' record, actually had some pretty good wordplay. The beat, well, the fact that it was meant for Dre's album says it all really.

Can't C Me - like much of AEOM, it was lighter - phonically anyway - than what 2Pac had previously made, but it was tight. I think, had he had more time, Dre would've made the beat a little better, as I don't think it was as polished as what Dre is capable of. That said, 2Pac spits some fierce lyrics, once again to the detriment of his message. Overall, a good track but, IMO, nowhere near what either were capable of.

 

[jason_g_718]

That song is getting on my nerves but not because it's wack, just because I'm hearing it all the time. It's quite a decent beat, decent hook, & Eminem has some nice lyrics to go with a nice flow. But like I say, it's played way too much & add to that the fact that the potentcy of the song is partially lost when you see kids dancing to that shit & you know half the fucking world don't have a clue what he's talking about. Pisses me off.

Yeah, and the fact that it is overplayed scares me because as of now, it's still my favorite off of Encore and there's been songs before that I fucking love, but they get overplayed and it causes me to hate them (i.e. Changes by Pac). I'm really hoping I don't end up hating this song. Also, you're right about the fact that the moral of the song is going to be lost on people who don't follow beefs or aren't really knowledgeable about present events.

And I never did like Mosh. I think Eminem was out of his depth there.

Out of his depth? No. I mean, he made White America which was pretty fucking political and that song kicks ass.

If you really listen to him well when the song is playing, I think he had a dilemna in the fact that he knew the beat was fucking out of this world, but he wasn't comfortable with it. You can sense at points throughout the song where he almost getting off beat. I think that was the problem. Also, lyrically he could have done a lot better too.

"If it rains let it pour/ yeah the wetter the better"

C'mon, he can do 1,000 times better than that.

 

[jason_g_718]

Yeah, but I don't think Dre could've put himself into the mindstate needed to work with 2Pac & vice versa. Dre would have had to quicken up & suppress his fetish for perfection & 2Pac would have to have learned patience & learn to hold back where he would usually give a producer a verbal ass whooping.

I agree with 2Pac & Dre being the G.O.A.Ts of rapping & producing respectively.

California Love was pretty much perfect - Dre had some nice lyrics written for him & he put his voice to good use with a tidy flow. 2Pac, while losing his usual conscious lyrics for this 'party' record, actually had some pretty good wordplay. The beat, well, the fact that it was meant for Dre's album says it all really.

Can't C Me - like much of AEOM, it was lighter - phonically anyway - than what 2Pac had previously made, but it was tight. I think, had he had more time, Dre would've made the beat a little better, as I don't think it was as polished as what Dre is capable of. That said, 2Pac spits some fierce lyrics, once again to the detriment of his message. Overall, a good track but, IMO, nowhere near what either were capable of.

I agree with everything you said here except Can't C Me.

I do agree with you that it wasn't the tops that both are capable of, but nonetheless it's still a flawless song to me. And if you listen to it, all Dre did was used the bassline pretty much that he used for Snoop's "What's My Name?". Just changed a few minor things.

 

[CalcuoCuchicheo]

Out of his depth? No. I mean, he made White America which was pretty fucking political and that song kicks ass.

If you really listen to him well when the song is playing, I think he had a dilemna in the fact that he knew the beat was fucking out of this world, but he wasn't comfortable with it. You can sense at points throughout the song where he almost getting off beat. I think that was the problem. Also, lyrically he could have done a lot better too.

"If it rains let it pour/ yeah the wetter the better"

C'mon, he can do 1,000 times better than that.

White America was tight, no doubt. But ,while I suppose many would've doubted his ability to make a politically charged song before it, when you hear it everybody knows that it's semi-personal as well. The fact that he's using much of his own experience in his lyrics means he doesn't have to solely concentrate on the politics at hand. That said, Eminem was knowledgeable about much of the injutice bestowed upon rap music by White America as he caught most of the flack for it. There was fire in this song.

On the other hand, on Mosh he was left to deal with a political matter which was a worldwide issue & one which could never be as personal to him as that which he had rapped about on White America. To do a song like this successfully you need to be well versed in the politcal spectrum & Eminem just isn't. There was something that resembled fire in this song, but he wasn't able to manifest it properly, due to, IMO, the reasons I've stated or for whatever reason.

As for the lyrics, yeah they were sub-par. I mean, he could've probably disguised a lack of politic knowledge by flipping crazy lyrics but I think he was genuinely trying to be as basic & straightfoward as possible so as the general public could understand the message. Turns out, the lyrics were too basic for Hip Hop heads & too late for most people.

 

[CalcuoCuchicheo]

I do agree with you that it wasn't the tops that both are capable of, but nonetheless it's still a flawless song to me. And if you listen to it, all Dre did was used the bassline pretty much that he used for Snoop's "What's My Name?". Just changed a few minor things.

That's what I mean. The effort put into the beat was minimal, although it still sounded good. And 2Pac, like with most of his songs, churned out his lyrics quickly rather than meticuously & while this method had produced masterful lyrics in the past, what you were left with here was a great voice, good flow & decent lyrics.

 

[jason_g_718]

I think Kevsta2004 just prefers the old school feel of Infinite to the more 'poppy' shit he's done under Dre.

I think you could hardly describe Eminem as pop. I think the word pop gets overused in regards to Em. Sure, some of his stuff is no doubt pop (i.e. Real Slim Shady, Without Me) but every rapper to do anything of substance has made pop songs, including our own beloved 2pac (*ahem* Changes, Keep Ya Head Up, I Get Around, How Do U Want It).

People who are East Coast enthusiasts say that West Coast rap is "pop" because of the polished sound. I disagree. I call it "polished".

And with the exception of "Guilty Conscience" I pretty much despise anything Eminem did before The MMLP.

That said, obviously Eminem's done some of his best 'dark' work under Dre, but I would say that, under Dre, regardless of whether it was Dre's influene or not, some of Eminem's penchant for flipping interesting verbals got lost in favour of flipping extravagent verbals.

Maybe he is afraid that your AVERAGE rap fan who just listens to the music and doesn't think about things like wordplay, multi's, puns and other stuff either won't get it or won't like it. I mean, I know even though I've been rapping now for about a year or 2, when I was 19, I was still about good lyrics then, but I also wouldn't have given a flying fuck about wordplay.

On the whole though, working with Dre has helped Eminem raise his overall game.

Without question. And anyone that tries to argue that is a moron.

 

[CalcuoCuchicheo]

I think you could hardly describe Eminem as pop. I think the word pop gets overused in regards to Em. Sure, some of his stuff is no doubt pop (i.e. Real Slim Shady, Without Me) but every rapper to do anything of substance has made pop songs, including our own beloved 2pac (*ahem* Changes, Keep Ya Head Up, I Get Around, How Do U Want It).

Yeah, Changes is 'pop' because so many people cling to that shit.
'Keep Ya Head Up' was popular as was 'I Get Around' & 'How Do U Want It?'

But if you're saying that Eminem's 'pop' songs are those such as The Real Slim Shady, then I think you are wrong to compare 2Pac's 'pop' songs to Eminem's.

I say this because, although the most 'poppy' song Tupac has, Changes has a real message.

As does Keep Ya Head Up, which was against the grain & full of insightful social analysis, plus most of the general probably ain't heard this.

I Get Around was definitely made with the view to being a single, & it is 'pop' in it's sound & message - or lack of it.

How Do U Want It? carries no message but I doubt many would consider it 'pop'. Even the edited version isn't that well known by the general public. It's kind of like calling a 2 Live Crew song 'pop' - yeah, it's known by many but really, it's still pretty hardcore.

Like I said, I would accept these as 'pop' songs (still reluctant to slap that tag on Keep Ya Head Up) but not in comparison to Eminem's 'pop' songs.

Maybe he is afraid that your AVERAGE rap fan who just listens to the music and doesn't think about things like wordplay, multi's, puns and other stuff either won't get it or won't like it. I mean, I know even though I've been rapping now for about a year or 2, when I was 19, I was still about good lyrics then, but I also wouldn't have given a flying fuck about wordplay.

I take your point here & recognize it to be very plausible & most likely true. But, I was defending Kevsta2004 from the point of view that those on this board - Hip Hop fans - can appreciate complex wordplay & that is why we prefer the 'Infinite Eminem'.

 

[jason_g_718]

White America was tight, no doubt. But ,while I suppose many would've doubted his ability to make a politically charged song before it, when you hear it everybody knows that it's semi-personal as well. The fact that he's using much of his own experience in his lyrics means he doesn't have to solely concentrate on the politics at hand. That said, Eminem was knowledgeable about much of the injutice bestowed upon rap music by White America as he caught most of the flack for it. There was fire in this song.

Agreed.

On the other hand, on Mosh he was left to deal with a political matter which was a worldwide issue & one which could never be as personal to him as that which he had rapped about on White America. To do a song like this successfully you need to be well versed in the politcal spectrum & Eminem just isn't. There was something that resembled fire in this song, but he wasn't able to manifest it properly, due to, IMO, the reasons I've stated or for whatever reason.

I don't know about that one. For example, we don't know who Eminem knows and keep in mind he knows a lot of fucking people. Someone that he knows, maybe even a friend or someone he employed could have been killed in the towers or on one of the planes. I mean, for real. We know how much he hates too much of his personal life being exposed. Also, knowing how many of his family members and or friends have died that he's had to deal with, I doubt if he had anyone that he knew killed in 9/11, he wouldn't talk about it. And, don't you think that he seems a little overly pissed almost in Mosh that Bush let that happen? He also talked in an interview just after the release of Encore that part of his motivation to write the song is that he's scared his brother Nathan, whom he is the legal guardian of, will get shipped to war. His brother is like 19.

But I do agree with you that the aspect need for straight fire on that song was there, Em just didn't find it. That song had the chance to be one of the most lethal politic song ever, and he failed.

 

[CalcuoCuchicheo]

I don't know about that one. For example, we don't know who Eminem knows and keep in mind he knows a lot of fucking people. Someone that he knows, maybe even a friend or someone he employed could have been killed in the towers or on one of the planes. I mean, for real. We know how much he hates too much of his personal life being exposed. Also, knowing how many of his family members and or friends have died that he's had to deal with, I doubt if he had anyone that he knew killed in 9/11, he wouldn't talk about it. And, don't you think that he seems a little overly pissed almost in Mosh that Bush let that happen? He also talked in an interview just after the release of Encore that part of his motivation to write the song is that he's scared his brother Nathan, whom he is the legal guardian of, will get shipped to war. His brother is like 19.

I take your points on board but if he had these reasons he really should've put them on blast - it's worked for him throughout his career.

I had heard him talking of his brother & his fear for him but that just makes him like almost every other American. To really bring this song to life he had to step up, expose the wrongs & show the way forward like a leader - but the fact is, like most of the planet, he isn't a political minded guy, & I think he found himself without the knowledge he needed at his disposal, & thus, struggled to articulate what a leader would've.

I mean, Chuck D or the like, would've massacred that beat, truly killed it & put the American Government to shame. As it is, worldwide politics just isn't Eminem's domain.

 

[jason_g_718]

Yeah, Changes is 'pop' because so many people cling to that shit.

Well, not only is "Changes" pop music in the TRUE SENSE of the word (which is exactly what you said, "pop"ular), it was also pop music in regards to the STYLE of music. I mean, c'mon...that beat SCREAMED "I'm a pop song". When that song was released, I saw one of two reactions from people both in the burbs as well as the ghetto. It was either:

"Man...Pac has gone pop?" Or

"Dude....Pac went pop."

The first signifying disgust, the latter signifying the mindset "Pac has made it cool to go pop".

But if you're saying that Eminem's 'pop' songs are those such as The Real Slim Shady, then I think you are wrong to compare 2Pac's 'pop' songs to Eminem's.

Well, see, this is my point. This is what I'm talking about. There's a double standard here. Pop music is pop music. So...Pac releases a song like "Changes", and people are like "oh, that's such a great song, so deep, the beat is so uplifting, it's such a thoughtful song and a consience one too".

However, Eminem releases a pop song like "Without Me", which, under all the jokes and punchlines, "Without Me" actually had a moralistic message which was that with all the bullshit and bad things going on in the world today, society, who was so concerned and pre-occupied with Eminem's lyrics that they were acting like it was the worst thing ever and he's telling them "yo, what the fuck is wrong in this country if you think I'm your biggest problem", and Eminem is suddnely labeled in with Britney and Christina.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that "Without Me" was as good or as deep as "Changes", but they're both fucking pop songs.

I say this because, although the most 'poppy' song Tupac has, Changes has a real message.

I just covered that above before I even read this. I reply as I go along. Changes does have a deep message, however, WE does have a message as well. Not as deep, but one nonetheless. Bottom line, both are pop.

How Do U Want It? carries no message but I doubt many would consider it 'pop'. Even the edited version isn't that well known by the general public. It's kind of like calling a 2 Live Crew song 'pop' - yeah, it's known by many but really, it's still pretty hardcore.

How Do U Want It is one of Pac's biggest hits, are you kidding me? Any guy whose ever been to a strip club knows the song.

Seriously, More people know How Do U Want It than know Hail Mary.

Like I said, I would accept these as 'pop' songs (still reluctant to slap that tag on Keep Ya Head Up) but not in comparison to Eminem's 'pop' songs.

Keep Ya Head Up is one of his BIGGEST pop songs.

I take your point here & recognize it to be very plausible & most likely true. But, I was defending Kevsta2004 from the point of view that those on this board - Hip Hop fans - can appreciate complex wordplay & that is why we prefer the 'Infinite Eminem'.

See, I admire and love wordplay as much as anyone else, which is why I like MMLP so much, however, what turned me off about Eminem before MMLP was that his wordplay may have been fucking exquisite, but his lyrics were also childish as fuck and I felt like they made a mockery of rap music. Rap is not talking about masturbating while molesting a sheep using WD40. Also, I HATED Em's voice from that time too.

 

[Notorious Thugs]

i would have loved to hear some beats made by dre.. dre kicks ass at producing imo... omg that album would have rocked if he made some of it

 

[jason_g_718]

CALI love is a weak song imo. cant c me is a good song

The ONLY thing that takes away from Cali Love is the unnecessary long ass ending.

LOL, still flawless to me though.