Rakim > 2Pac

[EDouble]

They say he chooses to because he wants to reach people. I say he has to because he can't perform as well using complex structure as he can with simple.

yeah but this argument doesnt make sense to me.

the lyrical structure and content could be dumbed down on the singles u had listed, but u use that as an argument to that he didn't Just dumb down for conscious songs to reach the people. obvoiusly he had a mission with the singles you mentioned to get spins & be laid back party tracks or whatever wana call it so how could Anyone be sucesful at that with lyrical scheme/content?

and the singles i mentioned for the most part were not in any way Below average or 'dumbed' down i think people just say that because he shoots a straight 16 but he also used multis and layers to leave impressions. and obviously its no comparrison to the dumbed out lyrics most main stream artists are Easily comin into the game with and blowin up..so the arguments all flawed.

 

[EDouble]

btw who was it that started the dumbed down shit or intended audience etc Pac rapped the way he did because that was Pac and with whatever Pac was rhymin he was all in it. Whether spittin the thug verses or society verses the people all buys it.

people are too focused on the MC aspect of course Rakim would be a better MC as would other ones too. (its sad how so much arguments can be mad pittin ones against each other as if theres an official scale. for the Most part everybody brings somethin different some different flavor to the game) but as pac said he mashed all of the games together and made his own, "mastered everyones style like the five deadly venoms" and claimed if any one of the old school ones tried to come at him he could Destroy em (whether or not to believe that shit up to u) but pac was a student and he used everthing he knew and rapped out like he lived it was the embodiment

 

[EDouble]

But there are people who refuse to acknowledge that he was less than perfect in any aspect.

true to that.i think the point that should be made though like with anyone, that can earn respectable praise off their work for what they give that their style is their own & just cant off top 'obviously they don't have the skills'. (clearly u could say that about Some artists lol but you get what i'm sayin..)

but its interesting to debate the shit & even more so easy to when u yourself is on the outside lookin in. i think i with you would take all the artists games equally for what they are worth and maybe pit that against each other but in any case all Can be enjoyable & good 4 the mind

pz

 

[AmerikazMost]

EDouble, I'm not trying to say that he "dumbed down" at all. The people who are supporting him are saying that.

Their take on Pac's creative process is that he could have the amazing message and the complex lyrics, but that would be too much for his listeners to handle. They wouldn't get his message if his music was too intricate for them. So he made the obvious choice to keep the integrity of his music by sacrficing structure for emotional appeal.

To me, that's bullshit.

Pac used his strengths. He didn't have great lyrical ability, so he used message and his way of saying things to reach your heart and your mind.

But Bombsquad/hituup will never acknowledge this.

 

[EDouble]

Yeah but u see my point? u cant fight that opinion that he dumbed down 2 get across a point with the tracks that u listed - because obviously they had a purpose & it wasnt 2 neccesary provoke a lot of thought. the only argument would be on the tracks that he did try do that, n that argument exclusively. like, for them to prove it would mean show example of otherwise lyricaly advanced social track. the tracks u listed were put out how they were for specific reasons & in the long run have shit 2 do with the argument other than to try and prove that Pac had songs like that (which would be outside the purpose of solidifyin that he didn't 'Just ' dumb down to reach people. or 2 use words other than the ones youre arguin with and for yours..just simple schemes? simple lyrics. like how u used for example the sarcastic thug passion as changin your life. that shit

 

[AmerikazMost]

No, I don't see your point, and from what I gather, you don't see mine.


If the reason for "dumbing down" songs is to relay a message, that what is the reason for dumbing down songs that have no message?


I could maybe see your point if they were arguing that he dumbed down his songs to sell records (which would make him no better than 50 Cent), but they're not.

 

[EDouble]

That was kind of My point on it and more on substance angle and like I 1st said in one of my first posts in here, the shit of today like 50 or alot of new shit is completely on another realm of 'dumbed down' lyrics thats unheard of and fuckin retarded. for one thing you talk about dumbing down lyrics and complexities of the shit but then on the other you talk about how meaningless the tracks are (that you listed) but when you look at songs like Brendas got a baby, holler if you hear me, papaz song, bury me a g, me against the world, pour out a lil liquor, life goes on, i ain't mad at cha, to live and die...they wont compare with... -2 of amerikaz, all about u, toss it up. Hell, if u look at I Get Around, How Do U Want It, temptations, hitemup - theyre all actually more inclined themselves to the other singles and Definitaly to singles these days. like try tying all the shit in with comparable tracks from 50 It don't work. and besides parts of shit like How do U Want it, Cali Love, All About U still held Pac's regular shit.

U could look at respected older rappers nowadays and see their atempts to get some singles spinnin which are, at least in Most part down alot as far as Substance goes - theyre difering from other tracks on their albums.

But In the end couldnt you look and see Pac still rapped the same way? regardless of subject he rapped like Pac always had rapped with exception to some difering and more advanced type of shit on his first 2 albums I mean can't really say... and I ain't one of the ones who think 'pac dumbed down his words to reach the people' It was his style that set the lyrics apart from other MC's. like I said again earlier pac still had multis and his flow with his tracks and vocabulary

 

[Bombsquad]

Conscious songs like "I Get Around," "Temptations," "How Do You Want It," "2 of Amerikaz Most Wanted," "California Love," "Hit 'Em Up," "All About U," and "Toss It Up"?

You're full of it.

Everything you said about 50 Cent and Jay-Z is the same thing Pac tried to do with All Eyez on Me. Or was he really trying to reach people with "Thug Passion"? Wait, I guess I can see where you're coming from. My life was truely changed after listening to that one.

Your argument is that Pac dumbed down his lyrics for his listeners so they could hear his message (patronizing, yet you seem to think it's a worthy argument). But what about the songs without a message? Why don't his dumbed down songs have more complex lyrical structure? I mean, there's no point in purposely dumbing down your lyrics if you're not trying to tell you listeners anything, right? So was he just lazy on those ones? Why didn't he show off his uncanny lyricism in "Toss It Up"?




I didn't have anything to say before that I hadn't already said. You didn't trump my previous arguments, so there was no point in repeating them.

1.Let's get this straight, the argument on my behalf here is that 2Pac was someone who used simple rhyme schemes in his music and not just his concious music , but so all his listeners and consumers could understand.

2.You're argument is that he was just wack lyrically even though he himself has said he's not into lyricism.

First of all you didn't read what I wrote. Because if you did, you'd understand me. You're using the phrase "dumbing down" wrong. Dumbing down means to stay in a bracket. Not exceeding your limits when it comes to music. That means making music from a business purpse instead of trying to break barriers, an artists will stay in the trends. In simple terms dumbing down means to make music with the intent of what is in trend. Dumbing down has nothing to do with lyricism. Pac had plenty of deep songs with simple lyricism. That is not dumbing down, that is a universal approach. What Nelly does is dubing down.

And notice that I said in my last post in my first sentence in the beginning of my 2nd paragraph that I wrote that "Pac did not do that to such an extent". I didn't say all his singles were concious, but I said the majority were and those singles to this day outweigh the less concious ones. Pac did not dumb down his lyrics, he simply made it universal for everyone to appeal with it. From kids, to teens, to the less educated, for those on the streets living thug life, to those who are less hip hop savvy, for those who live outside the U.S, for his white fanbase, etc.

His music had global appeal for a reason. This is why he is where he is. If he was to say a rhyme like "We could set it off like Vivica", do you think someone in lets say India or Zimbabwe would get what the hell he's trying to say. Like I said, the man had a knowledge of audiences and who he wanted to reach. And notice how you said nothing about how we've stated that 2Pac himself said that he puts his message out their raw and that he's not into puzzle raps and sublimainals. So there goes your answer for thug passion, all about u, etc.

Even "How Do You Want It" was a club banger with lines about politics. "Mr Bill Clinton, Mr. Bob Dole, you're too old too understand the way the game goes, your lame so I gotta hit you with the hot track." Amerikaz Most Wanted was a song that also had meaning, even though it came with a gangsta approach. Like I said, Pac's music was strategic. You forget that in order to gain people's attention to change the world like he wanted to, you have to gain appeal. All Eyez On Me was pac's appeal album. If it wasn't for that album, we probably wouldn't be hearing talking about him today. It's what won him over for everyone to understand what he was truly about. No matter what singles he put out, people have come to understand that he was more than about those party singles.

Toss It up was used as a single for an album that was mostly deep and concious. If you use your brain, you'll see that it all comes down to strategy and trying to garner as many fans as possible with any and every type of single to let the public know what you're really about.

 

[killahill187um]

i thought this thread was about rakim and tupac but now i c i was wrong

 

[AmerikazMost]

i thought this thread was about rakim and tupac but now i c i was wrong

That's what I thought reading hituup's last post.

1.Let's get this straight, the argument on my behalf here is that 2Pac was someone who used simple rhyme schemes in his music and not just his concious music , but so all his listeners and consumers could understand.

2.You're argument is that he was just wack lyrically even though he himself has said he's not into lyricism.

First of all you didn't read what I wrote. Because if you did, you'd understand me. You're using the phrase "dumbing down" wrong. Dumbing down means to stay in a bracket. Not exceeding your limits when it comes to music. That means making music from a business purpse instead of trying to break barriers, an artists will stay in the trends. In simple terms dumbing down means to make music with the intent of what is in trend. Dumbing down has nothing to do with lyricism. Pac had plenty of deep songs with simple lyricism. That is not dumbing down, that is a universal approach. What Nelly does is dubing down.

And notice that I said in my last post in my first sentence in the beginning of my 2nd paragraph that I wrote that "Pac did not do that to such an extent". I didn't say all his singles were concious, but I said the majority were and those singles to this day outweigh the less concious ones. Pac did not dumb down his lyrics, he simply made it universal for everyone to appeal with it. From kids, to teens, to the less educated, for those on the streets living thug life, to those who are less hip hop savvy, for those who live outside the U.S, for his white fanbase, etc.

His music had global appeal for a reason. This is why he is where he is. If he was to say a rhyme like "We could set it off like Vivica", do you think someone in lets say India or Zimbabwe would get what the hell he's trying to say. Like I said, the man had a knowledge of audiences and who he wanted to reach. And notice how you said nothing about how we've stated that 2Pac himself said that he puts his message out their raw and that he's not into puzzle raps and sublimainals. So there goes your answer for thug passion, all about u, etc.

Even "How Do You Want It" was a club banger with lines about politics. "Mr Bill Clinton, Mr. Bob Dole, you're too old too understand the way the game goes, your lame so I gotta hit you with the hot track." Amerikaz Most Wanted was a song that also had meaning, even though it came with a gangsta approach. Like I said, Pac's music was strategic. You forget that in order to gain people's attention to change the world like he wanted to, you have to gain appeal. All Eyez On Me was pac's appeal album. If it wasn't for that album, we probably wouldn't be hearing talking about him today. It's what won him over for everyone to understand what he was truly about. No matter what singles he put out, people have come to understand that he was more than about those party singles.

Toss It up was used as a single for an album that was mostly deep and concious. If you use your brain, you'll see that it all comes down to strategy and trying to garner as many fans as possible with any and every type of single to let the public know what you're really about.

You added nothing to your original argument. I know he used simple rhymes schemes in all of his music. That's usually what happens when you don't have the ability of a Rakim or a Kool G Rap.

You would believe anything Pac told you. He wasn't into lyricism because he wasn't that good at it. He was good at reaching people emotionally - he was the best.







This is beside the point, because I don't think he purposely dumbed anything down, but "dumbing down" your structure still qualifies as dumbing down. It doesn't have to be content or vocabulary.

And for future reference, using my point in your argument isn't good debating. My whole view is that Pac's appeal is what made him great, and that's what your whole post detailed. I know he has appeal, that's what I've been saying.

 

[Bombsquad]

That's what I thought reading hituup's last post.

You added nothing to your original argument. I know he used simple rhymes schemes in all of his music. That's usually what happens when you don't have the ability of a Rakim or a Kool G Rap.

You would believe anything Pac told you. He wasn't into lyricism because he wasn't that good at it. He was good at reaching people emotionally - he was the best.



This is beside the point, because I don't think he purposely dumbed anything down, but "dumbing down" your structure still qualifies as dumbing down. It doesn't have to be content or vocabulary.

And for future reference, using my point in your argument isn't good debating. My whole view is that Pac's appeal is what made him great, and that's what your whole post detailed. I know he has appeal, that's what I've been saying.

You still don't understand the phrase "dumbing down". You're using it in the wrong context.

I was highlighting his appeal for you to recognize how much he's done as a simple mc. You seem to let my point go over your head that because he was simple he reached more people, which is wanted he wanted to do and what he wanted to accomplish. Any stupid motherfucker could sit there and put similes, metaphors, punchlines, and so much other forms of figurative language down in their art on paper, whether poetry or music. Your notion seems to be oh you have to be a genious to be lyrical when that is clear bullshit. Even 50 Cent said that all an artists needs is time and they can come up with the hottest lines. Being the best lyrical rapper was not his goal. His goal was to put out the best and realist music as possible. His focus was on music, newer beats/production, hooks. Pac was not the type of rapper to sit there all day and come up with hot lines because he had a higher goal intended. That's what you are getting misconscrewed. You seem to think it's a requirement in hip hop to use figurative language, but REALITY CHECK, as an artists you can do what the hell you want. You keep using the phrase "dumbing down", when you don't understand that as a writer he was simple. And this simple rhyming was straightforward enough to reach the streets up to college classrooms more so than any other hip hop artists with close or similar messages.

And now you're argument has gone into insisting and resorting that he doesn't have ability to be lyrical even though it has come into his own mouth that he's not about beating around the bush.

All I have to say in response to that is WOW!! You have nothing else to even say because now you're trying to call the man a liar and argue against something that came out of his own mouth.YOU LOST!!

And do you really think calling me hituup bothers me.:laugh: Newsflash, I'm my own person. Maybe one day when hituup is over, I'll let him log onto my screenname and let him get wreckless, so you can actually be accurate in calling me his name when replying back.

 

[AmerikazMost]

You still don't understand the phrase "dumbing down". You're using it in the wrong context.

I was highlighting his appeal for you to recognize how much he's done as a simple mc. You seem to let my point go over your head that because he was simple he reached more people, which is wanted he wanted to do and what he wanted to accomplish. Any stupid motherfucker could sit there and put similes, metaphors, punchlines, and so much other forms of figurative language down in their art on paper, whether poetry or music. Your notion seems to be oh you have to be a genious to be lyrical when that is clear bullshit. Even 50 Cent said that all an artists needs is time and they can come up with the hottest lines. Being the best lyrical rapper was not his goal. His goal was to put out the best and realist music as possible. His focus was on music, newer beats/production, hooks. Pac was not the type of rapper to sit there all day and come up with hot lines because he had a higher goal intended. That's what you are getting misconscrewed. You seem to think it's a requirement in hip hop to use figurative language, but REALITY CHECK, as an artists you can do what the hell you want. You keep using the phrase "dumbing down", when you don't understand that as a writer he was simple. And this simple rhyming was straightforward enough to reach the streets up to college classrooms more so than any other hip hop artists with close or similar messages.

Haven't you been reading what I've said in all my posts?

"I don't think he purposely dumbed anything down."

"He wasn't into lyricism because he wasn't that good at it. He was good at reaching people emotionally - he was the best."


You're arguing against something that I'm not even trying to prove.

And now you're argument has gone into insisting and resorting that he doesn't have ability to be lyrical even though it has come into his own mouth that he's not about beating around the bush.

All I have to say in response to that is WOW!! You have nothing else to even say because now you're trying to call the man a liar and argue against something that came out of his own mouth.YOU LOST!!

Hey, I have an interview where Pac said he was really a scientologist. Time to change your religion.

 

[Bombsquad]

Haven't you been reading what I've said in all my posts?

"I don't think he purposely dumbed anything down."

"He wasn't into lyricism because he wasn't that good at it. He was good at reaching people emotionally - he was the best."


You're arguing against something that I'm not even trying to prove.

Hey, I have an interview where Pac said he was really a scientologist. Time to change your religion.

Just give up because you have nothing left of relevance to say. Cop out like you tried to do last time.

Like you said, that's what you think. I could argue the point I have underlined, but you seem to believe lyricism is some magical gift that some individuals are exclusively born with, so I'll leave it at that. You have your hardheaded opinion and I know what I know as truth. So there you go.

 

[AmerikazMost]

I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

This is a stupid thread because...

This forum is primarily visited by hip hop fans fond of 2Pac to an extremis. As a result this debate will be largely impaired / ruined through biased opinion tinged with madcap beliefs.

....of course I might be wrong but I've seen it happen a hundred times already and don't expect to be suprised.

 

[EDouble]

edit i don't know what i'm talking to

 

[Krazy187]

This is what I love about this site and the Tupac worshippers that sign up to it. "Tupac purposely simplified his rhymes." "He wanted to reach a wider audience." "He wanted to teach his people." blah blah BLAH. STFU.

First, son, u need to step back, take it ez a lil. Dont be tellin me to shut anything.

Second, in a 1991 interview with Davey D around the time that 2Pacalypse Now was released, Davey asked Tupac how he would describe his style... He replied by saying, "When I started out, I was more like 'I'm the spiritual lyrical miracle...' but now I'm more simple with how I say things. The people who I'm trying to reach with my rhymes aren't going to understand my message unless I'm more direct with the language..."

So, that's why I wrote what I wrote. Do ur homework first before u try to be a know it all.

 

[AmerikazMost]

^ Y'all can base things off of what 2Pac tells you. I'll base things off what I hear.

 

[EDouble]

^ Y'all can base things off of what 2Pac tells you. I'll base things off what I hear.

well u can think what u think about the shit but in the end it all means nothin anyway. it has nothin to do with any one at least yet to be dick ridin Pac lmao and from the quote Pac had in that inerview I wouldn't take it at all that he said he 'dumbed down' his lyrics cuz most of his audience 'high school dropouts' lol like whatever shit.

people are too fuckin involved with this shit..how would it be 'just basing things off what 2pac tells you' if he himself is semi explainin his style?. u can listen and u can also listen to what the artist says lol who gives a fuck? and how did this get so deep into just about Pac everybody seems to be tryin to prove their own thing but in the end this thread has been done from the 2nd or 3rd page or whatever

edub

 

[Bombsquad]

First, son, u need to step back, take it ez a lil. Dont be tellin me to shut anything.

Second, in a 1991 interview with Davey D around the time that 2Pacalypse Now was released, Davey asked Tupac how he would describe his style... He replied by saying, "When I started out, I was more like 'I'm the spiritual lyrical miracle...' but now I'm more simple with how I say things. The people who I'm trying to reach with my rhymes aren't going to understand my message unless I'm more direct with the language..."

So, that's why I wrote what I wrote. Do ur homework first before u try to be a know it all.

Thank you for shutting shit down. Kid was loosing a fight, but still tried to get up to fight again for no apparent reason. You know dude's defense is weak when he has to resort to calling people liars.

 

[EDouble]

well u can think what u think about the shit but in the end it all means nothin anyway. it has nothin to do with any one at least yet to be dick ridin Pac lmao and from the quote Pac had in that inerview I wouldn't take it at all that he said he 'dumbed down' his lyrics cuz most of his audience 'high school dropouts' lol like whatever shit.

people are too fuckin involved with this shit..how would it be 'just basing things off what 2pac tells you' if he himself is semi explainin his style?. u can listen and u can also listen to what the artist says lol who gives a fuck? and how did this get so deep into just about Pac everybody seems to be tryin to prove their own thing but in the end this thread has been done from the 2nd or 3rd page or whatever

edub

and that's the Damned Truth