Interesting Story about Suge

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Suge considered anyone leaving that label to be a slap in his face. Suge considered DR another form of a gang, and once you're in that gang... there's only one way out. Dre left... Suge had people fuck with him, and Dre might be dead today if he had stuck around longer or not put a restraining order on Suge.

Suge doesn't harass everyone who leaves Death Row, just the ones who leave and have success. While Dre got messed with (not immediately, but a year or two later once Dre caught his stride and Aftermath was on the rise) and Snoop got random threats from Death Row, nobody ever done anything to The D.O.C., RBX, The Lady of Rage, Nate Dogg, etc., aside from random disses on poor-selling Death Row compilations (Chronic 2000, Too Gangsta 4 Radio, etc.).

Rumor has it that Pac was getting ready to LEAVE DR to form Makaveli Records because he realized that Suge was fucking him financially.

It wasn't a rumor, it was a fact. His three-album deal would've been up by the end of 1996. However, this wouldn't piss Suge off, since Pac's company was going to be a subsidiary of Death Row, much like how Death Row is a subsidiary of Interscope. Suge has said in several interviews that he was all for his own artists expanding and creating their own labels with ties to Death Row... there's Pac's own Makaveli Records, and if you look in the All Eyez on Me booklet on the last page under upcoming Death Row releases, there is a "Snoop Doggy Dogg Doggystyle Records compilation." That didn't piss Suge off, and neither would Makaveli Records. Suge would still be making money no matter what, all that would change would be his actual involvement. Plus look at Pac and Suge after the MTV Awards... Pac's promoting Death Row East, just days bfeore he died. He still wanted to be down and make Suge money.

It has been said by SEVERAL people close to Pac that he didn't even want to go to Vegas that night and Suge talked him into it.

It's not really that Pac didn't want to go, it was more along the lines of Pac changing his mind but still going since he had committed to it.

Pac knew EVERYTHING about Suge's inner circle and Pac would have surely outted Suge as the true scandalous dude he was. Pac knew too much and said himself he had too much of a loud mouth.

Pac might've been known to air out people's dirty laundry, but he wasn't a snitch. There's a difference. And keep in mind that this "scandalous dude" was the same person who made Pac's release from prison into a reality. While he only put up $250,000 of the $1.4 million, it was him who made it happen, not Jimmy Iovine or anyone else. And the messed up money situation wasn't completely Suge's fault, David Kenner was very much involved with the handling of the money and the contracts.

If Pac stayed alive... he could have fought Suge in court for masters and all that shit. Suge probably felt if Pac were dead, the masters would automatically stay with DR and thus, Pac would be worth more money dead than alive.

This is a gray area, but from what I understand, even if Pac were to completely leave Death Row and make his own company independent of it, Suge would still be owed some money... maybe not that much, but for studio time and funding the recording of the music. And with Pac dead, did this alleged plan work? Nope. Afeni's the rightful owner of the music.

Anyone who really doesn't think Suge did this... needs to look a lot closer at the picture.

The whole conspiracy theory about Suge being behind the shooting is something that has been talked about almost right from the moment Pac died. If you were going to have someone killed the way Pac was, would you ride next to him in the car? I wouldn't. While doing so would be the PERFECT alibi, it's far too dangerous and risky for ownership of some songs. And while Pac was the biggest artist on Death Row, it's not like he was all they had. There was still multiplatinum acts like Snoop and Tha Dogg Pound, plus there were lots of upcoming albums from Nate Dogg, Michel'le, Hammer, O.F.T.B., Danny Boy, etc. in addition to Snoop's and Tha Dogg Pound's next albums... that's still a lot of money for Suge to play around with.

Why was Frank Alexander told to leave his piece in California? ARe you serious? Leaving a bodyguard UNARMED when they're guarding someone like Pac? That's just fucking stupid. That would be like Bush going to Afghanistan with zero security.

I don't know for sure, but Wrightway Security employed California off-duty police officers, who are licensed to carry guns whenever. The legality of them still carrying firearms outside of California might vary from state to state, perhaps this is why. And Bush going to Afghanistan isn't a working analogy. Afghanistan is a dangerous, Vegas is Sin City. They went there to watch a boxing match, gamble, and have fun. You usually don't expect violent stuff to pop off when those things are in your agenda.

Plus.. why has pretty much everyone that was on DR or associated with them at the time scared to speak on this situation? Or... they have beat around the bush to make the claim Suge had Pac killed.

It's not that people were scared to speak on the situation; none of them were present at the shooting, only Suge, Pac, various Wrightway Security employees, the Outlawz, and various Death Row associates (mostly of the Blood factions). Besides, Death Row artists DID speak about Pac's situation with Death Row... I recall at least Nate Dogg and O.F.T.B. vocalizing Pac's unhappiness with being on Death Row.

 

[Pittsey]

*monotone of sarcams* Surprise, surprise.



LMAO! "everyone you meet online".. Dogg... I guess that means "everyone at streethop'... because I have TONS of online "homies"... I'm a member of about 5 different types of groups and wouldn't ya know it.. the only place I catch flak is here.. AND.. .to top that off, the only one giving me shit since I came back is you. I've seen a lot of posts where people in here that knew me before have given me props on messages I wrote or defended me saying "people change and grow up, give the guy a chance".




Well, one things for sure... I am simple because I'm bluntly honest.

As for anything else you say about me... well, it's just ignorance because you don't know a thing about me. nothing.




According to the myraid posts that people have used to respond to my comments, I'd say you're wrong.



Yeah you do.

Now... next time you type something to me... why don't you try to make it insightful rather than a bunch of prejudgemental rantings that are unintelligent in their own right since you don't know a damned thing about me.

lol

 

[Bam_Margera]

Suge doesn't harass everyone who leaves Death Row, just the ones who leave and have success.

OK... fair enough... I'll agree on that, since the ones he's gone after are Pac, Snoop and Dre.

While Dre got messed with (not immediately, but a year or two later once Dre caught his stride and Aftermath was on the rise) and Snoop got random threats from Death Row,

Not to mention, wasn't there a drive by and Snoop's house years back that was said to be orchestrated by Suge? Plus... I also remember a time when Suge got out of jail when, if you went to the DR website, you heard a dog barking, then a gun shot, and then the dog dying.

It wasn't a rumor, it was a fact.

I believe it to be fact too, but I said "rumor" because I read this shit way back and can't remember EXACTLY who said it... just that a bunch of people who were close to Pac made the claims. So, I basically only said "rumor" just to cover my own ass so people can't say "so you knew Pac, huh"?

However, this wouldn't piss Suge off, since Pac's company was going to be a subsidiary of Death Row, much like how Death Row is a subsidiary of Interscope.

But that's not what I've heard. I've heard that Pac was wanting to create a whole nother label and LEAVE DR completely.

Suge has said in several interviews

You can stop there, cuz I don't believe a fuckin' word Suge says.

Suge would still be making money no matter what, all that would change would be his actual involvement. Plus look at Pac and Suge after the MTV Awards... Pac's promoting Death Row East, just days bfeore he died. He still wanted to be down and make Suge money.

Pac was also a very contradictory man. He said in prison that Thug Life was dead, but when he was released, he was screamin it at the top of his lungs. I believe Pac was telling Suge what he wanted to hear to keep him happy till he was gone.

It's not really that Pac didn't want to go, it was more along the lines of Pac changing his mind but still going since he had committed to it.

Everyone that knew Pac real close I've heard or seen in one place or another say he didn't want to go. He wanted to go to Atlanta to "take care of family business".

Pac might've been known to air out people's dirty laundry, but he wasn't a snitch.

Nobody said he was, but there's ways of outting people without snitching.

And keep in mind that this "scandalous dude" was the same person who made Pac's release from prison into a reality.

So? Does Suge want a cookie for that? Does that negate Suge from being scandalous? I love how you put scandalous dude in quotes... like there's any question that Suge's a known scandalous dude.

While he only put up $250,000 of the $1.4 million, it was him who made it happen, not Jimmy Iovine or anyone else.

So what?

And the messed up money situation wasn't completely Suge's fault, David Kenner was very much involved with the handling of the money and the contracts.

No doubt... but Suge was the man behind it all. I'm not nitpicking here, you obviously are.

This is a gray area, but from what I understand, even if Pac were to completely leave Death Row and make his own company independent of it, Suge would still be owed some money...

First of all, that's irrelevant because one lump sum of maybe a couple million wouldn't have lasted Suge long. Second.. I don't see how Pac would have owed Suge when rumor has it that Suge owed Pac a couple million upon his killing.

maybe not that much, but for studio time and funding the recording of the music. And with Pac dead, did this alleged plan work? Nope. Afeni's the rightful owner of the music.

Ah... but what you're forgetting is that Suge probably felt he'd almost get the masters and shit by default. He didn't plan for Jada putting her money behind Afeni to fight for that shit. Suge figured Afeni was broke as hell and could never match his power or finances.

The whole conspiracy theory about Suge being behind the shooting is something that has been talked about almost right from the moment Pac died.

I know... I said that. And there's plenty enough support and reason for that.

If you were going to have someone killed the way Pac was, would you ride next to him in the car? I wouldn't.

You're not Suge... and people who know Suge have said that he is a man dumb (or smart enough, depending on your view) to do something like that. Because... people will say EXACTLY what you just said.

While doing so would be the PERFECT alibi, it's far too dangerous and risky for ownership of some songs.

Maybe to the average man... but Suge is no average man.

And while Pac was the biggest artist on Death Row, it's not like he was all they had.

Pretty close.

There was still multiplatinum acts like Snoop and Tha Dogg Pound, plus there were lots of upcoming albums from Nate Dogg, Michel'le, Hammer, O.F.T.B., Danny Boy, etc. in addition to Snoop's and Tha Dogg Pound's next albums... that's still a lot of money for Suge to play around with.

Snoop was on trial for murder and nobody knew if he was going to prison or not... The Dogg Poud hasn't done much of shit since Dogg Food, Nate Dogg never even had his own album on DR... he was a hook man... Hammer... that's fucking laughable... and the rest could be said for eveyrone else you mentioned.

The only REAL other talent on the label that was possibly going to make Suge money was Snoop, and, as I said, Suge didn't know if he was going to prison or not.

And Bush going to Afghanistan isn't a working analogy. Afghanistan is a dangerous, Vegas is Sin City.

And Pac was a walking target... he'd been getting death threats for months, had already been shot 5 times, had enough enemies, and you said... Vegas is Sin City. It's a perfect analogy.

They went there to watch a boxing match, gamble, and have fun. You usually don't expect violent stuff to pop off when those things are in your agenda.

Unless you're in the center of the bloods/crips rivalry and are Suge Knights best friend and are surrouned by dudes that grew up in the most dangerous of hoods and have already been in prison.

It's not that people were scared to speak on the situation; none of them were present at the shooting, only Suge, Pac,

If you want to believe that, fine. You're only fooling yourself far as I'm concerned.

various Wrightway Security employees, the Outlawz, and various Death Row associates (mostly of the Blood factions). Besides, Death Row artists DID speak about Pac's situation with Death Row... I recall at least Nate Dogg and O.F.T.B. vocalizing Pac's unhappiness with being on Death Row.

The only person that was actully there that night that is still alive who have spoken is Frank... Yak was gonna talk, but he got killed to soon. Nobody else that was actually there as said shit.

And... I don't have to have been there myself to know that Suge held Vanilla Ice over a balcony. It happened...

 

[Da_Funk]

OK... fair enough... I'll agree on that, since the ones he's gone after are Pac, Snoop and Dre.



Not to mention, wasn't there a drive by and Snoop's house years back that was said to be orchestrated by Suge? Plus... I also remember a time when Suge got out of jail when, if you went to the DR website, you heard a dog barking, then a gun shot, and then the dog dying.



I believe it to be fact too, but I said "rumor" because I read this shit way back and can't remember EXACTLY who said it... just that a bunch of people who were close to Pac made the claims. So, I basically only said "rumor" just to cover my own ass so people can't say "so you knew Pac, huh"?



But that's not what I've heard. I've heard that Pac was wanting to create a whole nother label and LEAVE DR completely.




You can stop there, cuz I don't believe a fuckin' word Suge says.



Pac was also a very contradictory man. He said in prison that Thug Life was dead, but when he was released, he was screamin it at the top of his lungs. I believe Pac was telling Suge what he wanted to hear to keep him happy till he was gone.




Everyone that knew Pac real close I've heard or seen in one place or another say he didn't want to go. He wanted to go to Atlanta to "take care of family business".



Nobody said he was, but there's ways of outting people without snitching.



So? Does Suge want a cookie for that? Does that negate Suge from being scandalous? I love how you put scandalous dude in quotes... like there's any question that Suge's a known scandalous dude.



So what?



No doubt... but Suge was the man behind it all. I'm not nitpicking here, you obviously are.



First of all, that's irrelevant because one lump sum of maybe a couple million wouldn't have lasted Suge long. Second.. I don't see how Pac would have owed Suge when rumor has it that Suge owed Pac a couple million upon his killing.



Ah... but what you're forgetting is that Suge probably felt he'd almost get the masters and shit by default. He didn't plan for Jada putting her money behind Afeni to fight for that shit. Suge figured Afeni was broke as hell and could never match his power or finances.



I know... I said that. And there's plenty enough support and reason for that.



You're not Suge... and people who know Suge have said that he is a man dumb (or smart enough, depending on your view) to do something like that. Because... people will say EXACTLY what you just said.



Maybe to the average man... but Suge is no average man.



Pretty close.



Snoop was on trial for murder and nobody knew if he was going to prison or not... The Dogg Poud hasn't done much of shit since Dogg Food, Nate Dogg never even had his own album on DR... he was a hook man... Hammer... that's fucking laughable... and the rest could be said for eveyrone else you mentioned.

The only REAL other talent on the label that was possibly going to make Suge money was Snoop, and, as I said, Suge didn't know if he was going to prison or not.



And Pac was a walking target... he'd been getting death threats for months, had already been shot 5 times, had enough enemies, and you said... Vegas is Sin City. It's a perfect analogy.



Unless you're in the center of the bloods/crips rivalry and are Suge Knights best friend and are surrouned by dudes that grew up in the most dangerous of hoods and have already been in prison.




If you want to believe that, fine. You're only fooling yourself far as I'm concerned.



The only person that was actully there that night that is still alive who have spoken is Frank... Yak was gonna talk, but he got killed to soon. Nobody else that was actually there as said shit.

And... I don't have to have been there myself to know that Suge held Vanilla Ice over a balcony. It happened...

Didn't anyone ever tell you not to believe everything you read or hear? You make suge out to be worse than the devil, and while he's not exactly a stand up citizen, i highly highly doubt he's as much of a badass as you make him out to be.

 

[Bam_Margera]

Didn't anyone ever tell you not to believe everything you read or hear? You make suge out to be worse than the devil, and while he's not exactly a stand up citizen, i highly highly doubt he's as much of a badass as you make him out to be.

No... I don't believe everything I see or read, and matter of fact, I recently just stated that exactly in another thread.

But you know what? the problem is... too many incidents have happened wiht Suge to back up what people say about him... period.

 

[DarkPhantom13]

And... if what you say is true... then about 80% of the population in the US are very silly, because virtually everyone I know from music listeners to my fellow rappers on the Detroit scene to other underground rappers I know outside the state believe 100% that Suge pulled this hit....

You know wats funny? U say most people "believe" that Suge pulled the hit. Well I am from Cali, and from dealing with several rappers here from LA along with a few former DeathRow affiliates. The word over here has always been that Orlando had alot to do with wat went down that night. Suge is in fact not well liked here, but no one ever really blames him for Pac's murder. Now in the case of Biggie.........

So please take your head outta your ass and stop tryin to convince people that Suge had Pac killed. Cause it's not true and honestly it's pretty fuckin idiotic.

 

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Bam, while I can appreciate you trying to maturely argue your points, I strongly disagree with a lot of things.

Plus... I also remember a time when Suge got out of jail when, if you went to the DR website, you heard a dog barking, then a gun shot, and then the dog dying.

I think a little flash video on an internet site is the last thing that Snoop needed to worry about at that point. I'm talking about REAL threats.

Pac was also a very contradictory man. He said in prison that Thug Life was dead, but when he was released, he was screamin it at the top of his lungs. I believe Pac was telling Suge what he wanted to hear to keep him happy till he was gone.

Yes, but look at the timespan between those events... months. I don't think Pac would be pumping up Death Row East on camera on September 4 then do a complete 180 degree turn within the next couple days. And even after his release, while Pac's use of "Thug Life" was far different. Before he went to prison, Thug Life was his group, his philosophy, his everything. After getting out of prison, Pac did say "Thug Life" but to a lesser degree not just in terms of frequency but its meaning to him. At that point, he was more about claiming Death Row/Outlawz than Thug Life.

So? Does Suge want a cookie for that? Does that negate Suge from being scandalous? I love how you put scandalous dude in quotes... like there's any question that Suge's a known scandalous dude.

I only said that because you were painting Suge out to be a 100% bad guy. My point was that out of everyone Pac was ever down with, it was this guy who helped him. And I used quotes to... guess what... quote you. Not because I question his dignity, which I definitely do.

No doubt... but Suge was the man behind it all. I'm not nitpicking here, you obviously are.

I'm not nitpicking either, your arguments make it seem like Suge was 100% responsible for 100% of the questionable activities. Get your facts straight. Remember that it was David Kenner who drafted the shitty contracts that Pac signed (I doubt Suge knows enough to make contracts, other than knowing what points are) and appointed himself as Pac's lawyer while simultaneously representing Death Row Records--a clear conflict of interest, as mentioned in the VIBE biography of Biggie. And remember that Pac fired David Kenner as his lawyer toward the end, while Pac would still hang out with Suge till the very end.

First of all, that's irrelevant because one lump sum of maybe a couple million wouldn't have lasted Suge long. Second.. I don't see how Pac would have owed Suge when rumor has it that Suge owed Pac a couple million upon his killing.

A couple million wouldn't have lasted Suge long? Suge already had millions of dollars before Pac even came to Death Row. And if Pac left and took his music, he would definitely owe Suge for MONEY INVESTED in the things I mentioned... studio time, studio engineers, etc. While Death Row would still owe him all the money from his album sales, there were still monetary transactions that have to be accounted for. In the real world, Pac can't be like, "I owe you $100,000 for studio time, but you owe me $1 million, so give me $900,000 and we're even." It doesn't work like that.

Snoop was on trial for murder and nobody knew if he was going to prison or not... The Dogg Poud hasn't done much of shit since Dogg Food, Nate Dogg never even had his own album on DR... he was a hook man... Hammer... that's fucking laughable... and the rest could be said for eveyrone else you mentioned.

Snoop was acquitted and went back to the studio almost immediately. Tha Doggfather went 2X Platinum and could've done better had Pac not died and Suge not have been in court. Tha Dogg Pound hasn't done much in terms of sales, but Dogg Food was a 2X Platinum album, so they definitely had a fanbase. They were set to release West Coast Aftershock, but Pac's death and Suge's incarceration screwed up the plans for that album along with every other Death Row album to follow. Nate Dogg DID have his own album recorded on Death Row, and it had songs like "Never Leave Me Alone" featuring Snoop and "Me & My Homies" featuring 2Pac. It was released as a Death Row album overseas but not in the U.S. (for reasons I don't remember) but Nate Dogg got the rights to release it as a two-disc set some years later, with the second disc being all new material (with "Nobody Does It Better"). Yes, Hammer was laughable since we remember him as the "U Can't Touch This" guy and now know him as the guy who judges on those reality TV shows, but he did record with Death Row with good production and rappers like 2Pac lending a hand with songwriting. If "Too Late Playa" is any indication of what Hammer's album would've been like, I would've bought it. And The Lady of Rage's album was actually pretty good, although it wasn't too successful since Death Row had become a sinking ship at that point in time. It definitely had some badass Daz production. You ignore the fact that there is a ton of material recorded in 1996 and earlier that captured Death Row at its very best, much of which hasn't seen the light of day.

The only REAL other talent on the label that was possibly going to make Suge money was Snoop, and, as I said, Suge didn't know if he was going to prison or not.

As I said above, Snoop was acquitted in early/mid 1996, well before Pac was killed. You're a bit late with your news, plus you neglect to realize the talent that was brewing at Death Row at the time.

And Pac was a walking target... he'd been getting death threats for months, had already been shot 5 times, had enough enemies, and you said... Vegas is Sin City. It's a perfect analogy.

What are you talking about? That was a horrible analogy. Pac wasn't a walking target, he was a guy who had beef with rappers and a few guys with pull... in NEW YORK. Vegas is Sin City, but not a warzone. Afghanistan literally rains mortars and bullets, and you can't go there without military armor. Vegas is where you go to gamble and get crazy.

If you want to believe that, fine. You're only fooling yourself far as I'm concerned.

How am I fooling myself? Once again, let's think about who was in that specific caravan: Suge and Pac in the BMW, Frank Alexander and a few of the Outlawz in the Lexus, and then a few more cars of Death Row affiliates who were known to have strong Blood ties. Snoop, Nate, Daz, Kurupt, etc. were NOT there, so what is there for them to speak on, other than speculation of an event that happened when they weren't present?

The only person that was actully there that night that is still alive who have spoken is Frank... Yak was gonna talk, but he got killed to soon. Nobody else that was actually there as said shit.

Frank never really spoke. Yes, he wrote a book about it, but did it have any revealing details? Nope. Kadafi only said he could identify the shooter, but his death in New Jersey two months later was completely unrelated. Napolean admitted that his cousin was Kadafi's killer, and that his death was an accident. And people there HAVE said shit. Sanyika Shakur (pka Monster Kody of the Eight Tray Gangster Crips) knew Suge through Pac and through prison (after Suge got arrested for the Vegas incident) and said Suge told him that it was "Baby Lane" (Orlando Anderson) who did it. There are informants within the Bloods who were questioned by police who have anonymously admitted that it was indeed Orlando Anderson who was the gunman. But since police can't just base an arrest and conviction of murder off of a few informants' testimonials, no arrests were made. Orlando was a known Southside Comption Crip, what do you think he'd want to do after getting pummeled by Pac and half of Death Row staff? I find it interesting that you haven't even mentioned Orlando Anderson.

And... I don't have to have been there myself to know that Suge held Vanilla Ice over a balcony. It happened...

Who gives a shit about Vanilla Ice? And that incident was never in question.

 

[Bam_Margera]

You know wats funny? U say most people "believe" that Suge pulled the hit. Well I am from Cali, and from dealing with several rappers here from LA along with a few former DeathRow affiliates. The word over here has always been that Orlando had alot to do with wat went down that night. Suge is in fact not well liked here, but no one ever really blames him for Pac's murder. Now in the case of Biggie.........

Well, that's fine... but, as you pointed out and acknowledged, I did say "most". I'm completely positive that Orlando pulled that trigger. But, I also agree with the theories that Suge and Orlando and whoever else was involved, had that whole fight scene set up in Vegas as the "reason" Pac was killed. Suge knew Pac's inflammatory personality and knew that he would not pass up a chance to beat down someone he (Pac) felt deserved it.

So please take your head outta your ass and stop tryin to convince people that Suge had Pac killed. Cause it's not true and honestly it's pretty fuckin idiotic.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm just stating my opinion based off the facts about 50 different DVD's I've seen, not to mention the research I've done and statements people have made.

Honestly... you yourself can't say that it's fact that Suge didn't have it done as much as I can't say for fact that Suge did have it done. Both of us are just speaking on our opinions.

that said... IMO.. anyone who looks at the obvious fucking evidence and still thinks Suge didn't do it is just... well... you fill in the blank yaself. And if you reall think Suge couldn't or wouldn't have done it... you're only fooling yourself. That's as funny as saying that there is no proof that Osama Bin Laden caused 9/11.

 

[EDouble]

jason you sayin that Suge, at the same time- hired orlando to shoot Pac, and at the same time for strategy hired himto take a beatin so he could take a trip to prison for multiple years?

oh & the small, lifestyle differences between orlando & suge obviously mean nothing either. it would be simple for suge to comprimise all the shit; oh & start a gang war, to make sure pac Got His for tryin to leave Death Row a rap label & by chance maybe get the hundreds of songs Pac leave behind

 

[tonyuk]

Taxi for Bam Lol :laugh:

 

[Casey]

Jesus fucking Christ, are we still talking about this booooolshit?

Suge DID NOT have 'Pac killed, and 'Pac wasn't leaving Death Row. Look at the fucking Euphanasia card - 'Pac had JUST registered the company before he died and it didnt legally clear until after, which is why, if you run a search, the reg date of the company is listed as after he died. And Euphanasia was to be run THROUGH Death Row.

I have it on word from some of 'Pac's closest peoples, including Johnny and Gobi that he was most definately not leaving. What more do you need to know?

 

[Rahim]

haha I guess those anger management classes really worked then..

 

[DarkPhantom13]

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm just stating my opinion based off the facts about 50 different DVD's I've seen, not to mention the research I've done and statements people have made.

So you are convinced by the dvd's you've seen? I think you've watched Biggie & Tupac a lil too much. Like i said earlier, unlike you that gets his info from "dvd's," i've actually spoken to former deathrow affiliates and artists. And it's always the same when it comes to Pac's murder...It wasn't Suge! Yes i understand these dvd's might be real convincing and these "underground rappers" from detroit may be convicing too. But when it comes to the fact that people who actually knew Pac and were there when he got shot tells me one thing and then somebody on the internet comes in with reason why they think Suge killed pac.....im goin with the person who was actually there and not somebody who gets his info from a dvd put out by a euro director trying to make money off of Tupac and Biggies murder.

 

[EDouble]

Case Closed
Now Let's Discuss Suge's And Proof's Relationship :hungry:

 

[Bam_Margera]

Bam, while I can appreciate you trying to maturely argue your points, I strongly disagree with a lot of things.

Well, I appreciate that... that's all I ask for. People ain't gotta agree with me... just respect the opinion.

I think a little flash video on an internet site is the last thing that Snoop needed to worry about at that point. I'm talking about REAL threats.

I'm not saying it was a "major deal"... just something to point out.

Yes, but look at the timespan between those events... months. I don't think Pac would be pumping up Death Row East on camera on September 4 then do a complete 180 degree turn within the next couple days.

But that's my point... I don't think there ever was a plan in Pac's eyes for DR East... I believe he was telling Suge what he felt he needed to until he was out.

And even after his release, while Pac's use of "Thug Life" was far different. Before he went to prison, Thug Life was his group, his philosophy, his everything. After getting out of prison, Pac did say "Thug Life" but to a lesser degree not just in terms of frequency but its meaning to him. At that point, he was more about claiming Death Row/Outlawz than Thug Life.

Thug Life has ALWAYS stood for The Hate U Gave Little Infants Fucks EVeryone... ALWAYS.

I only said that because you were painting Suge out to be a 100% bad guy. My point was that out of everyone Pac was ever down with, it was this guy who helped him. And I used quotes to... guess what... quote you. Not because I question his dignity, which I definitely do.

I'm not painting him out to be 100% bad at all. NOBODY on the planet is 100% evil. But.. my point was... Suge didn't "help" Pac... he put Pac in his debt. As Leila Steinburg has said... "Pac didn't choose to go to Death Row, he had no choice because he wanted out of prison". Pac didn't go to DR because he wanted to. He went there because he felt it was better than prison. Funny how everyone around him told him not to go to DR because he'd be "in the devil's hands"...

I'm not nitpicking either, your arguments make it seem like Suge was 100% responsible for 100% of the questionable activities.

And I believe we was AT LEAST PARTIALLY responsible for all those activities. Suge pulls the strings... that's it.

Get your facts straight. Remember that it was David Kenner who drafted the shitty contracts that Pac signed (I doubt Suge knows enough to make contracts, other than knowing what points are) and appointed himself as Pac's lawyer while simultaneously representing Death Row Records--a clear conflict of interest, as mentioned in the VIBE biography of Biggie. And remember that Pac fired David Kenner as his lawyer toward the end, while Pac would still hang out with Suge till the very end.

What facts have I gotten wrong? Please tell me. Yes.. I know all of this.. of course Kenner was in on it too. But Kenner was more of a consigliere than a mastermind... Suge was the mastermind... Kenner the advisor. At least IMO.

A couple million wouldn't have lasted Suge long? Suge already had millions of dollars before Pac even came to Death Row.

Exactly, which is why it wouldn't have lasted long. When you're used to living a lavish lifestyle like these men are... a couple mill don't last long.

And if Pac left and took his music, he would definitely owe Suge for MONEY INVESTED in the things I mentioned... studio time, studio engineers, etc. While Death Row would still owe him all the money from his album sales, there were still monetary transactions that have to be accounted for. In the real world, Pac can't be like, "I owe you $100,000 for studio time, but you owe me $1 million, so give me $900,000 and we're even." It doesn't work like that.

Actually, that IS how it works in most cases. Just like, when you get tried in court for something... if you've already spent 14 days in jail and get sentenced to 100, you get 14 days knocked off the sentence. Everytime Pac would ask Suge about royalty checks and stuff that Suge owed him... Suge would do shit like buy Pac a new car, or some jewelry... but Pac that was was his payment, when in reality, Suge was charging him for it... which is why Pac would have been in debt.

Tha Doggfather went 2X Platinum and could've done better had Pac not died and Suge not have been in court. Tha Dogg Pound hasn't done much in terms of sales, but Dogg Food was a 2X Platinum album, so they definitely had a fanbase. They were set to release West Coast Aftershock, but Pac's death and Suge's incarceration screwed up the plans for that album along with every other Death Row album to follow. Nate Dogg DID have his own album recorded on Death Row, and it had songs like "Never Leave Me Alone" featuring Snoop and "Me & My Homies" featuring 2Pac. It was released as a Death Row album overseas but not in the U.S. (for reasons I don't remember) but Nate Dogg got the rights to release it as a two-disc set some years later, with the second disc being all new material (with "Nobody Does It Better"). Yes, Hammer was laughable since we remember him as the "U Can't Touch This" guy and now know him as the guy who judges on those reality TV shows, but he did record with Death Row with good production and rappers like 2Pac lending a hand with songwriting. If "Too Late Playa" is any indication of what Hammer's album would've been like, I would've bought it. And The Lady of Rage's album was actually pretty good, although it wasn't too successful since Death Row had become a sinking ship at that point in time. It definitely had some badass Daz production. You ignore the fact that there is a ton of material recorded in 1996 and earlier that captured Death Row at its very best, much of which hasn't seen the light of day.

Everything you say here is pretty much irrelevant because you prove my point. The only real talent capable of selling was Snoop, and Doggfather didn't do shit compared to Doggystyle. I don't care how many of these rappers "had talent and could been...". The bottom line is that what "could have" wasn't. Pac was the bread winner on that label after Dre left, and Snoop was his right hand man.

As I said above, Snoop was acquitted in early/mid 1996, well before Pac was killed. You're a bit late with your news, plus you neglect to realize the talent that was brewing at Death Row at the time.

What was "brewing" doesn't mean shit unless it comes to fruition, which it didn't.

What are you talking about? That was a horrible analogy. Pac wasn't a walking target, he was a guy who had beef with rappers and a few guys with pull... in NEW YORK. Vegas is Sin City, but not a warzone. Afghanistan literally rains mortars and bullets, and you can't go there without military armor. Vegas is where you go to gamble and get crazy.

Are you insane? Pac wasn't a walking target? I guess you've never seen the interviews from people like Leila Rochon who said that Pac would come to the Gridlock'd set and be telling people every other day about the death threats he was getting. "Niggaz aimin at my head but I still wear my vest"... Pac was a complete walking target.

And you said "Vegas is Sin City, not a warzone"... are you kidding me? The mafia BUILT Vegas... do some research on guys like Capone, Luciano and all these other notorious mobesters... Vegas is a HAVEN of crime. Not to mention you sai he had beef with guys in NY... yeah... guys with money, who would very likely be in Vegas on a huge fight night.

Frank never really spoke.

Watch "Before I Wake" listen to what Frank says.

Kadafi only said he could identify the shooter, but his death in New Jersey two months later was completely unrelated. Napolean admitted that his cousin was Kadafi's killer, and that his death was an accident. And people there HAVE said shit.

I didn't say Kadafi was killed because he was going to point out the shooter, I just said he was killed a month later... that's all.

Orlando was a known Southside Comption Crip, what do you think he'd want to do after getting pummeled by Pac and half of Death Row staff? I find it interesting that you haven't even mentioned Orlando Anderson.

Um... I have... I said that I believe Orlando was the one that pulled the trigger.

Who gives a shit about Vanilla Ice? And that incident was never in question.

Just to point out that Suge is KNOWN for this shit... Your'e acting as if everything that's said about Suge is blown out of proportion and the fact is... most of it is true.

 

[Bam_Margera]

I have it on word from some of 'Pac's closest peoples, including Johnny and Gobi that he was most definately not leaving. What more do you need to know?

I know all I need to know... I know what the evidence tells me, whether people want to agree or not. I'm not here to beef or fight... just converse about this. But people suddenly acting like what they say is golden and fact and that I got facts misconstrewed or some shit.

Bottom line is... NOBODY ON THIS FORUM has any more proof than anyone else one way or the other... these are all our theories... So... Unless you can get Johnny J or Afeni or someone to call me and say it's not true... I'm not convinced.

 

[Bam_Margera]

So you are convinced by the dvd's you've seen? I think you've watched Biggie & Tupac a lil too much.

First off, I'm convinced by the DVD's, the books and the research, because everything I've read or watched is corraborated by people who know what they're talking about.

And Biggie & Tupac has very little to do with Pac. In reality it's more about the Biggie murder...

Like i said earlier, unlike you that gets his info from "dvd's,"

What's wrong with that?

i've actually spoken to former deathrow affiliates and artists. And it's always the same when it comes to Pac's murder...

And I've seen interviews from former DR affiliates... what's your point? The stuff that has convinced me includes statements made by Snoop, Nate Dogg, Dre, various people who have researched the stuff including Michael Eric Dyson... shit that Shock G has said, Leila Steinburg... Jada... so, yes... I beleive what these people say.

Yes i understand these dvd's might be real convincing and these "underground rappers" from detroit may be convicing too.

Dogg, the Detroit rappers ain't got nothing to do with this.. don't even know why you brought them into it... and what's up with putting underground rappers in quotes?

But when it comes to the fact that people who actually knew Pac and were there when he got shot tells me one thing and then somebody on the internet comes in with reason why they think Suge killed pac.....im goin with the person who was actually there and not somebody who gets his info from a dvd put out by a euro director trying to make money off of Tupac and Biggies murder.

I notice all you keep mentioning is that one DVD, when I've CLEARLY stated that I've gotten my info from VARIOUS DVD's, newspaper articles, magazines.. a slew of places... so get off that one DVD shit.

 

[EDouble]

But that's my point... I don't think there ever was a plan in Pac's eyes for DR East... I believe he was telling Suge what he felt he needed to until he was out.

lol...have u happened to watch the interview with much music that night? or heard interviews where Pac discusses death row east? or maybe one nation too?. :roll_eyes:

Thug Life has ALWAYS stood for The Hate U Gave Little Infants Fucks EVeryone... ALWAYS.

what the hell are u talkin about?

I'm not painting him out to be 100% bad at all. NOBODY on the planet is 100% evil. But.. my point was... Suge didn't "help" Pac... he put Pac in his debt. As Leila Steinburg has said... "Pac didn't choose to go to Death Row, he had no choice because he wanted out of prison". Pac didn't go to DR because he wanted to. He went there because he felt it was better than prison. Funny how everyone around him told him not to go to DR because he'd be "in the devil's hands"...

you make it seem like Pac was pushed into a corner on the whole deal, hes the one who signed the contract and went to death row accordin to him because they only ones who were supportin him, and because they were a super power. not just cause Had to get out of prison, No Other Choice" bullshit. man ALOT of things is better than prison. and like he said wasnt for protection cause he didnt fear no one just like death row didnt fear no one. not to mention all the love & shouts Pac had for em the whole time there regardless of some shady situations.

And you said "Vegas is Sin City, not a warzone"... are you kidding me? The mafia BUILT Vegas... do some research on guys like Capone, Luciano and all these other notorious mobesters... Vegas is a HAVEN of crime. Not to mention you sai he had beef with guys in NY... yeah... guys with money, who would very likely be in Vegas on a huge fight night.

i think every one knows the mob history of las vegas, the fuck does it have to do with just goin to see a boxing fight. scratch the mob history only thing would be a threat would be the Gangs in the area at the time. 'not a war zone' you realy defendin Vegas as a war zone? lmao. and not all guys with money in NYC would be headin to this particular mike tyson fight :roll_eyes:. they even said BIGGIE was at the fight, you even say SUGE pulled the whole thing and hired ORLANDO ANDERSON as the shooter. your thinkin is bugged

Bottom line is... NOBODY ON THIS FORUM has any more proof than anyone else one way or the other... these are all our theories... So... Unless you can get Johnny J or Afeni or someone to call me and say it's not true... I'm not convinced.

you say this whenever u dont have nothin to rebuttle with. And Actualy, Militant has spoken to Johnny J & people face to face.

And I've seen interviews from former DR affiliates... what's your point? The stuff that has convinced me includes statements made by Snoop, Nate Dogg, Dre, various people who have researched the stuff including Michael Eric Dyson... shit that Shock G has said, Leila Steinburg... Jada... so, yes... I beleive what these people say.

lmao. you just contradict yourself. if its not your thought on what hapened, you dont care if someone spoke to some one personally. you dont care that they had read an interview with some one. etc, etc Do believe it when it is your opinion no matter what

oh & say somethin to my other post
http://www.streethop.com/forum/showthread.php?p=608426#post608426

 

[Bam_Margera]

lol...have u happened to watch the interview with much music that night? or heard interviews where Pac discusses death row east? or maybe one nation too?. :roll_eyes:

Yes... how many times do I have to say that I believe he was telling Suge whatever he had to while he was there?

If you want to think I"m a moron for believe that... go ahead.. I don't really care.

what the hell are u talkin about?

Do you know anything about Pac? Are you seriously even asking this? This has to be rhetorical, right? I mean.. everyone knows what Thug Life stood for... how many interviews had Pac done talking about it?

you make it seem like Pac was pushed into a corner on the whole deal, hes the one who signed the contract and went to death row accordin to him because they only ones who were supportin him, and because they were a super power.

He was pushed into a corner. No shit he signed the contracts... because that was his only way out of jail... hence.. he was pushed into a corner.

not just cause Had to get out of prison, No Other Choice" bullshit.

Well, according to people like Mopreme, Leila and Shock... that's exactly what happened, and I take their word over yours... no offense.

and like he said wasnt for protection cause he didnt fear no one just like death row didnt fear no one.

I'm not even sure what this incoherent sentence is supposed to be saying.

not to mention all the love & shouts Pac had for em the whole time there regardless of some shady situations.

Dude... you would rep the guy that got you out of jail too if he gave you a better life at the time. Problem is... that better life was short and came at an ultimate price.

i think every one knows the mob history of las vegas,

Well, apparently dude didn't based on saying "it's not a warzone"... the hell it ain't.

the fuck does it have to do with just goin to see a boxing fight.

Tell ya what... instead of just talking trash... think on it for a couple hours, then get back to me.

and not all guys with money in NYC would be headin to this particular mike tyson fight :roll_eyes:.

Tyson fight nights tend to attract the biggest financial players in the nation.. especially when in Vegas... so rolling your eyes at that comment is laughable.

they even said BIGGIE was at the fight,

Who's "they"? And Biggie wasn't at the fight.

you even say SUGE pulled the whole thing and hired ORLANDO ANDERSON as the shooter. your thinkin is buggedyou say this whenever u dont have nothin to rebuttle with.

Nothing to rebutt? I've given this thread 30 posts of rebuttal.

And Actualy, Militant has spoken to Johnny J & people face to face.lmao. you just contradict yourself.

Wanna provide an actual example of me contradicting myself?

if its not your thought on what hapened, you dont care if someone spoke to some one personally.

You're right, I don't care who Militant spoke to personally. Johnny wasn't there that night, Frank was... and Frank's belief is that DR and Suge had something to do with it. Before you tell me I'm full of shit, watch Before I Wake.

oh & say somethin to my other post
http://www.streethop.com/forum/show...ready answered before you asked the question.

 

[EDouble]

Do you know anything about Pac? Are you seriously even asking this? This has to be rhetorical, right? I mean.. everyone knows what Thug Life stood for...

yeah but i said WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU POST IT. 'stands for... ALWAYS!" the fuck? yall were talkin about Pac feelins with thug life pre prison prison and post prison, etc. wtf I mean deeez didnt even attempt to say what it 'stood for'

how many interviews had Pac done talking about it?

shit IDK maybe, once or twice in interviews? its just one acronym said for use with the thug life idea.