Errors in the Quran
- Thread starter Rukas
- Start date
i agree!!!
hey people!!! stop fretting over something you dont even belive in or understand for that matter!! Firstly where did these ''errors'' come from what and what traslation claimed these!
Islam is a beautiful religion with answers to all aspects of life writen with in the quran itself!! You need to be a beliver to undersatnd its depth and beauty!!!
All i ask is to chill down alittle ..... breathe!!! coz it isnt too friendly!!
mabe if people asked questions in order to understand rather than putting foward agressive statements!! too many people dont understand islam and the quran, and choose to make false claims instead!! it does get alittle frustating... be alittle tolerant and open minded of other beliefs!!
Peace!!
hey people!!! stop fretting over something you dont even belive in or understand for that matter!! Firstly where did these ''errors'' come from what and what traslation claimed these!
Islam is a beautiful religion with answers to all aspects of life writen with in the quran itself!! You need to be a beliver to undersatnd its depth and beauty!!!
All i ask is to chill down alittle ..... breathe!!! coz it isnt too friendly!!
mabe if people asked questions in order to understand rather than putting foward agressive statements!! too many people dont understand islam and the quran, and choose to make false claims instead!! it does get alittle frustating... be alittle tolerant and open minded of other beliefs!!
Peace!!
Khaled, please man. Speak not of what you do not know. The Quraan speaks the truth. If you believe it or not, it's not the issue. The issue is that the Quraan is facts, historically, scientifically and spiritually.
To claim otherwise is going against the teaching of Islam. It's to be taken as a fact when the Quraan, the word of God himself, says Noah has lived 950 years perhaps more.
To claim otherwise is going against the teaching of Islam. It's to be taken as a fact when the Quraan, the word of God himself, says Noah has lived 950 years perhaps more.
Anybody who is against Islam seems not to understand Islam and anybody who is a non-Muslim (not against) doesn't seem too understand Islam either. Pretty senseless accusations. But it does seem the only understanding is to claim Islam is the absolute truth... and then you'll understand. And that's how the cookie crumbles.
if you think that everything in the Quran can be considered true from a hisrorical perspective, you're actually making the Quran as imperfect as any historical book. If what you learned from the deluge story is that it's something that really happened in the past an exactly as described, you're completely missing the point.
Having legends, or myths in the Quran doesn't make it less perfect. It's a known fact that the Quran does not specify which parts are to be taken literally or metaphorically. Just because a story is easy to understand doesn't mean it has to be taken literally as a historical fact.
You're forgetting that Islam and the Quran are not meant specifically for muslims. saying that only muslim believers can understand the Quran is a mistake.
The Quran is perfect, so it's not restricted to a set of beliefs, but to human kind as a whole, it's not bound by space nor time this is why you can't say it worked then but doesn't work now.
Also, Valeoz, History has shown that muslims themselves are those who have most misunderstood the Quran. The Quaran is as much a book for non muslims and anti muslims as it is for muslim believers. The reason why people don't understand it is because its just difficut, and cannot be translated without twisting the meaning.
Having legends, or myths in the Quran doesn't make it less perfect. It's a known fact that the Quran does not specify which parts are to be taken literally or metaphorically. Just because a story is easy to understand doesn't mean it has to be taken literally as a historical fact.
You're forgetting that Islam and the Quran are not meant specifically for muslims. saying that only muslim believers can understand the Quran is a mistake.
The Quran is perfect, so it's not restricted to a set of beliefs, but to human kind as a whole, it's not bound by space nor time this is why you can't say it worked then but doesn't work now.
Also, Valeoz, History has shown that muslims themselves are those who have most misunderstood the Quran. The Quaran is as much a book for non muslims and anti muslims as it is for muslim believers. The reason why people don't understand it is because its just difficut, and cannot be translated without twisting the meaning.
Lol I think you completely misunderstood me. In your first paragraph is what I was saying with these sentences:
"Anybody who is against Islam seems not to understand Islam and anybody who is a non-Muslim (not against) doesn't seem too understand Islam either. Pretty senseless accusations."
Thus according some people's logic, to understand Islam you have to be a Muslim, which is not true. I'm a non-Muslim and I bet I understand just as much as the Muslim. And the next sentence was sarcasm is you didn't get it.
"Anybody who is against Islam seems not to understand Islam and anybody who is a non-Muslim (not against) doesn't seem too understand Islam either. Pretty senseless accusations."
Thus according some people's logic, to understand Islam you have to be a Muslim, which is not true. I'm a non-Muslim and I bet I understand just as much as the Muslim. And the next sentence was sarcasm is you didn't get it.
The Quraan is filled with lessons based on true facts. Therefore, Noah's story is fact. His age is fact. etc. The problem with saying the stories in the Quraan can't be true is simply saying God lied to us. Which again, is contradictory of the Islamic system.
Noah's story is a lesson for humans. With this story, God warns us and tell us of his capabilities of power as well as his mercy.
Exactly. That's why we believe in God. Why is it pointless because you don't believe in God?
Noah's story is a lesson for humans. With this story, God warns us and tell us of his capabilities of power as well as his mercy.
Exactly. That's why we believe in God. Why is it pointless because you don't believe in God?
It's pointless to argue with someone who is so convinced that what they think is right, that regardless of what evidence you present to them they will never concede.
You think the Qu'ran is the word of god, and therefore perfect. Even if someone proved beyond all doubt that something in there was incorrect, you'd still say "The Qu'ran is the word of god. You're wrong, the Qu'ran is right".
There is nothing that could be said or done that would make you question the Qu'ran, because you've been led to believe its the word of god. If you won't even entertain the idea that's it not, and therefore might be fallible, then you're too narrow-minded to be argued with.
You think the Qu'ran is the word of god, and therefore perfect. Even if someone proved beyond all doubt that something in there was incorrect, you'd still say "The Qu'ran is the word of god. You're wrong, the Qu'ran is right".
There is nothing that could be said or done that would make you question the Qu'ran, because you've been led to believe its the word of god. If you won't even entertain the idea that's it not, and therefore might be fallible, then you're too narrow-minded to be argued with.
With this logic, you might as well say that the Quran is to be understood literally without any need for further intrpretation.
There are unlimited interpretations to what Noah's story stands for, much more than God's power and mercy.
If Noah's story is fact, then what good is it to your faith? what do muslims learn from it? Do you really think the main point is just to show that God is powerfull and Mercifull?
and if God wanted to show this, would he just tell you a story and ask you to believe in it as fact?
As i said in a previous post, the Noah story existed in Babylonian mythology long before the bible and the Quran, How do u explain it? Is it also meant to show God's mercy in a polytheist civilisation?
It just means that this story stands for much more than what muslim faith stands for. But as long as people still consider it to be facts, they won't learn anything from it.
There are unlimited interpretations to what Noah's story stands for, much more than God's power and mercy.
If Noah's story is fact, then what good is it to your faith? what do muslims learn from it? Do you really think the main point is just to show that God is powerfull and Mercifull?
and if God wanted to show this, would he just tell you a story and ask you to believe in it as fact?
As i said in a previous post, the Noah story existed in Babylonian mythology long before the bible and the Quran, How do u explain it? Is it also meant to show God's mercy in a polytheist civilisation?
It just means that this story stands for much more than what muslim faith stands for. But as long as people still consider it to be facts, they won't learn anything from it.
LOL Dinosaurs? Who the heck said anything about dinosaurs? And giants? Who are these giants you speak of?
Did you actually read the Gilgamesh Epic? Or did you just somehow 'heard' that there was a Noah-like character? But anyways there are some similarities and some differences, some biblical scholars say that it gives more credence and some accept that it came from the Babylonian story. I can only speak for the Bible, don't know the Quran's story. Oh, and, there is also different versions of Noah's story. But IMHO, this does not however eradicate the story of Noah, it has overall become a theory.
Did you actually read the Gilgamesh Epic? Or did you just somehow 'heard' that there was a Noah-like character? But anyways there are some similarities and some differences, some biblical scholars say that it gives more credence and some accept that it came from the Babylonian story. I can only speak for the Bible, don't know the Quran's story. Oh, and, there is also different versions of Noah's story. But IMHO, this does not however eradicate the story of Noah, it has overall become a theory.
i was just showing that the Noah's story doesn't have to be facts, cuz if it is, Islam will have to recognize so many other religion (other than the three mootheistic religions), whereas Islam only recognizes Islam, Christianity and Judaism.
am saying noah's story is a legend or a fable, and its point is not to prove that God is mercifull, since it existed before monotheistic religions
here's an extract of table XI of the epic
"I will reveal to you, Gilgamesh, a thing that is hidden,
a secret of the gods I will tell you!
Shuruppak, a city that you surely know,
situated on the banks of the Euphrates,
that city was very old, and there were gods inside it.
The hearts of the Great Gods moved them to inflict the Flood.
Their Father Anu uttered the oath (of secrecy),
Valiant Enlil was their Adviser,
Ninurta was their Chamberlain,
Ennugi was their Minister of Canals.
Ea, the Clever Prince(?), was under oath with them
so he repeated their talk to the reed house:
'Reed house, reed house! Wall, wall!
O man of Shuruppak, son of Ubartutu:
Tear down the house and build a boat!
Abandon wealth and seek living beings!
Spurn possessions and keep alive living beings!
Make all living beings go up into the boat.
The boat which you are to build,
its dimensions must measure equal to each other:
its length must correspond to its width.
Roof it over like the Apsu.
I understood and spoke to my lord, Ea:
'My lord, thus is the command which you have uttered
I will heed and will do it.
But what shall I answer the city, the populace, and the
Elders!'
Ea spoke, commanding me, his servant:
'You, well then, this is what you must say to them:
"It appears that Enlil is rejecting me
so I cannot reside in your city (?),
nor set foot on Enlil's earth.
I will go down to the Apsu to live with my lord, Ea,
and upon you he will rain down abundance,
a profusion of fowl, myriad(!) fishes.
He will bring to you a harvest of wealth,
in the morning he will let loaves of bread shower down,
and in the evening a rain of wheat!"'
Just as dawn began to glow
the land assembled around me-
the carpenter carried his hatchet,
the reed worker carried his (flattening) stone,
... the men ...
The child carried the pitch,
the weak brought whatever else was needed.
On the fifth day I laid out her exterior.
It was a field in area,
its walls were each 10 times 12 cubits in height,
the sides of its top were of equal length, 10 times It cubits each.
I laid out its (interior) structure and drew a picture of it (?).
I provided it with six decks,
thus dividing it into seven (levels).
The inside of it I divided into nine (compartments).
I drove plugs (to keep out) water in its middle part.
I saw to the punting poles and laid in what was necessary.
Three times 3,600 (units) of raw bitumen I poured into the
bitumen kiln,
three times 3,600 (units of) pitch ...into it,
there were three times 3,600 porters of casks who carried (vege-
table) oil,
apart from the 3,600 (units of) oil which they consumed (!)
and two times 3,600 (units of) oil which the boatman stored
away.
I butchered oxen for the meat(!),
and day upon day I slaughtered sheep.
I gave the workmen(?) ale, beer, oil, and wine, as if it were
river water,
so they could make a party like the New Year's Festival.
... and I set my hand to the oiling(!).
The boat was finished by sunset.
The launching was very difficult.
They had to keep carrying a runway of poles front to back,
until two-thirds of it had gone into the water(?).
Whatever I had I loaded on it:
whatever silver I had I loaded on it,
whatever gold I had I loaded on it.
All the living beings that I had I loaded on it,
I had all my kith and kin go up into the boat,
all the beasts and animals of the field and the craftsmen I
had go up.
Shamash had set a stated time:
'In the morning I will let loaves of bread shower down,
and in the evening a rain of wheat!
Go inside the boat, seal the entry!'
That stated time had arrived.
In the morning he let loaves of bread shower down,
and in the evening a rain of wheat.
I watched the appearance of the weather--
the weather was frightful to behold!
I went into the boat and sealed the entry.
For the caulking of the boat, to Puzuramurri, the boatman,
I gave the palace together with its contents.
Just as dawn began to glow
there arose from the horizon a black cloud.
Adad rumbled inside of it,
before him went Shullat and Hanish,
heralds going over mountain and land.
Erragal pulled out the mooring poles,
forth went Ninurta and made the dikes overflow.
The Anunnaki lifted up the torches,
setting the land ablaze with their flare.
Stunned shock over Adad's deeds overtook the heavens,
and turned to blackness all that had been light.
The... land shattered like a... pot.
All day long the South Wind blew ...,
blowing fast, submerging the mountain in water,
overwhelming the people like an attack.
No one could see his fellow,
they could not recognize each other in the torrent.
The gods were frightened by the Flood,
and retreated, ascending to the heaven of Anu.
The gods were cowering like dogs, crouching by the outer wall.
Ishtar shrieked like a woman in childbirth,
the sweet-voiced Mistress of the Gods wailed:
'The olden days have alas turned to clay,
because I said evil things in the Assembly of the Gods!
How could I say evil things in the Assembly of the Gods,
ordering a catastrophe to destroy my people!!
No sooner have I given birth to my dear people
than they fill the sea like so many fish!'
The gods--those of the Anunnaki--were weeping with her,
the gods humbly sat weeping, sobbing with grief(?),
their lips burning, parched with thirst.
Six days and seven nights
came the wind and flood, the storm flattening the land.
When the seventh day arrived, the storm was pounding,
the flood was a war--struggling with itself like a woman
writhing (in labor).
The sea calmed, fell still, the whirlwind (and) flood stopped up.
I looked around all day long--quiet had set in
and all the human beings had turned to clay!
The terrain was as flat as a roof.
I opened a vent and fresh air (daylight!) fell upon the side of
my nose.
I fell to my knees and sat weeping,
tears streaming down the side of my nose.
I looked around for coastlines in the expanse of the sea,
and at twelve leagues there emerged a region (of land).
On Mt. Nimush the boat lodged firm,
Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing no sway.
One day and a second Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing
no sway.
A third day, a fourth, Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing
no sway.
A fifth day, a sixth, Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing
no sway.
When a seventh day arrived
I sent forth a dove and released it.
The dove went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.
I sent forth a swallow and released it.
The swallow went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.
I sent forth a raven and released it.
The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back.
It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me.
Then I sent out everything in all directions and sacrificed
(a sheep).
I offered incense in front of the mountain-ziggurat.
Seven and seven cult vessels I put in place,
and (into the fire) underneath (or: into their bowls) I poured
reeds, cedar, and myrtle.
The gods smelled the savor,
the gods smelled the sweet savor,
and collected like flies over a (sheep) sacrifice.
Just then Beletili arrived.
....
http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/tab11.htm
am saying noah's story is a legend or a fable, and its point is not to prove that God is mercifull, since it existed before monotheistic religions
here's an extract of table XI of the epic
"I will reveal to you, Gilgamesh, a thing that is hidden,
a secret of the gods I will tell you!
Shuruppak, a city that you surely know,
situated on the banks of the Euphrates,
that city was very old, and there were gods inside it.
The hearts of the Great Gods moved them to inflict the Flood.
Their Father Anu uttered the oath (of secrecy),
Valiant Enlil was their Adviser,
Ninurta was their Chamberlain,
Ennugi was their Minister of Canals.
Ea, the Clever Prince(?), was under oath with them
so he repeated their talk to the reed house:
'Reed house, reed house! Wall, wall!
O man of Shuruppak, son of Ubartutu:
Tear down the house and build a boat!
Abandon wealth and seek living beings!
Spurn possessions and keep alive living beings!
Make all living beings go up into the boat.
The boat which you are to build,
its dimensions must measure equal to each other:
its length must correspond to its width.
Roof it over like the Apsu.
I understood and spoke to my lord, Ea:
'My lord, thus is the command which you have uttered
I will heed and will do it.
But what shall I answer the city, the populace, and the
Elders!'
Ea spoke, commanding me, his servant:
'You, well then, this is what you must say to them:
"It appears that Enlil is rejecting me
so I cannot reside in your city (?),
nor set foot on Enlil's earth.
I will go down to the Apsu to live with my lord, Ea,
and upon you he will rain down abundance,
a profusion of fowl, myriad(!) fishes.
He will bring to you a harvest of wealth,
in the morning he will let loaves of bread shower down,
and in the evening a rain of wheat!"'
Just as dawn began to glow
the land assembled around me-
the carpenter carried his hatchet,
the reed worker carried his (flattening) stone,
... the men ...
The child carried the pitch,
the weak brought whatever else was needed.
On the fifth day I laid out her exterior.
It was a field in area,
its walls were each 10 times 12 cubits in height,
the sides of its top were of equal length, 10 times It cubits each.
I laid out its (interior) structure and drew a picture of it (?).
I provided it with six decks,
thus dividing it into seven (levels).
The inside of it I divided into nine (compartments).
I drove plugs (to keep out) water in its middle part.
I saw to the punting poles and laid in what was necessary.
Three times 3,600 (units) of raw bitumen I poured into the
bitumen kiln,
three times 3,600 (units of) pitch ...into it,
there were three times 3,600 porters of casks who carried (vege-
table) oil,
apart from the 3,600 (units of) oil which they consumed (!)
and two times 3,600 (units of) oil which the boatman stored
away.
I butchered oxen for the meat(!),
and day upon day I slaughtered sheep.
I gave the workmen(?) ale, beer, oil, and wine, as if it were
river water,
so they could make a party like the New Year's Festival.
... and I set my hand to the oiling(!).
The boat was finished by sunset.
The launching was very difficult.
They had to keep carrying a runway of poles front to back,
until two-thirds of it had gone into the water(?).
Whatever I had I loaded on it:
whatever silver I had I loaded on it,
whatever gold I had I loaded on it.
All the living beings that I had I loaded on it,
I had all my kith and kin go up into the boat,
all the beasts and animals of the field and the craftsmen I
had go up.
Shamash had set a stated time:
'In the morning I will let loaves of bread shower down,
and in the evening a rain of wheat!
Go inside the boat, seal the entry!'
That stated time had arrived.
In the morning he let loaves of bread shower down,
and in the evening a rain of wheat.
I watched the appearance of the weather--
the weather was frightful to behold!
I went into the boat and sealed the entry.
For the caulking of the boat, to Puzuramurri, the boatman,
I gave the palace together with its contents.
Just as dawn began to glow
there arose from the horizon a black cloud.
Adad rumbled inside of it,
before him went Shullat and Hanish,
heralds going over mountain and land.
Erragal pulled out the mooring poles,
forth went Ninurta and made the dikes overflow.
The Anunnaki lifted up the torches,
setting the land ablaze with their flare.
Stunned shock over Adad's deeds overtook the heavens,
and turned to blackness all that had been light.
The... land shattered like a... pot.
All day long the South Wind blew ...,
blowing fast, submerging the mountain in water,
overwhelming the people like an attack.
No one could see his fellow,
they could not recognize each other in the torrent.
The gods were frightened by the Flood,
and retreated, ascending to the heaven of Anu.
The gods were cowering like dogs, crouching by the outer wall.
Ishtar shrieked like a woman in childbirth,
the sweet-voiced Mistress of the Gods wailed:
'The olden days have alas turned to clay,
because I said evil things in the Assembly of the Gods!
How could I say evil things in the Assembly of the Gods,
ordering a catastrophe to destroy my people!!
No sooner have I given birth to my dear people
than they fill the sea like so many fish!'
The gods--those of the Anunnaki--were weeping with her,
the gods humbly sat weeping, sobbing with grief(?),
their lips burning, parched with thirst.
Six days and seven nights
came the wind and flood, the storm flattening the land.
When the seventh day arrived, the storm was pounding,
the flood was a war--struggling with itself like a woman
writhing (in labor).
The sea calmed, fell still, the whirlwind (and) flood stopped up.
I looked around all day long--quiet had set in
and all the human beings had turned to clay!
The terrain was as flat as a roof.
I opened a vent and fresh air (daylight!) fell upon the side of
my nose.
I fell to my knees and sat weeping,
tears streaming down the side of my nose.
I looked around for coastlines in the expanse of the sea,
and at twelve leagues there emerged a region (of land).
On Mt. Nimush the boat lodged firm,
Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing no sway.
One day and a second Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing
no sway.
A third day, a fourth, Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing
no sway.
A fifth day, a sixth, Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing
no sway.
When a seventh day arrived
I sent forth a dove and released it.
The dove went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.
I sent forth a swallow and released it.
The swallow went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.
I sent forth a raven and released it.
The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back.
It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me.
Then I sent out everything in all directions and sacrificed
(a sheep).
I offered incense in front of the mountain-ziggurat.
Seven and seven cult vessels I put in place,
and (into the fire) underneath (or: into their bowls) I poured
reeds, cedar, and myrtle.
The gods smelled the savor,
the gods smelled the sweet savor,
and collected like flies over a (sheep) sacrifice.
Just then Beletili arrived.
....
http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/tab11.htm
^^
OK that's good, you did read it.
Is it really a legend/fable? Lets find out why would some people would give credence to the Epic. Bibically, Moses is the supposed writer of Genesis (1450-1400 B.C.) and the happenings were not contemporary with Moses. So Moses wrote under divine inspiration, so is it not possible that there is a God (the Abrahamic God) which caused this deluge but it was recorded by others as to incorporate it into their beliefs? It is said that the Epic has been around since 2000 B.C. and the deluge happened around 2700-2650 B.C. So what if the Abrahamic God was showing Moses the truth of it all?
OK that's good, you did read it.
Is it really a legend/fable? Lets find out why would some people would give credence to the Epic. Bibically, Moses is the supposed writer of Genesis (1450-1400 B.C.) and the happenings were not contemporary with Moses. So Moses wrote under divine inspiration, so is it not possible that there is a God (the Abrahamic God) which caused this deluge but it was recorded by others as to incorporate it into their beliefs? It is said that the Epic has been around since 2000 B.C. and the deluge happened around 2700-2650 B.C. So what if the Abrahamic God was showing Moses the truth of it all?
You're assuming Moses actually wrote Genesis, which is a big assumption. All but the most conservative and traditionalist of Christians and Jews believe that it was actually compiled, over a period of time, by three different authors all with different writing styles and agendas. These authors took older myths and legends - like the Chaldean flood and the Epic of Gilgamesh - and incorporated them into the Bible. The previous deluge myths may themselves be greatly exaggerated accounts of an actual flood of the Black Sea circa 5,600BC.
No, this is not a big assumption and on the contrary most conservative and tradionalist Christians and Jews believe it was actually only Moses. I wouldn't have mentioned otherwise. It is also believed Genesis is the first of five books written by Moses called the Pentateuch, it states it several times in these five books.
Keep up with the discussion! We been discussing this the whole time.
Good. So, there was a possiblity of a flood that was accounted for a deluge. This gives more credence.
Keep up with the discussion! We been discussing this the whole time.
Good. So, there was a possiblity of a flood that was accounted for a deluge. This gives more credence.
I think in case God exists, he has better things to do than to correct historical innaccurate facts. If the deluge actually happened, there's no reason to believe the Quran is a better source than the Epic, or the Bible. I understand how religions can require faith, but claiming that religious books are credible sources for historical events takes it out of the scope of religion.
the main question is imho: what's the point??
why would the Quran talk about the deluge, and not about so many other historical facts?? And is it just a coincidence that the Epic, the Quran, and babylonian mythology happened to mention it??
the main question is imho: what's the point??
why would the Quran talk about the deluge, and not about so many other historical facts?? And is it just a coincidence that the Epic, the Quran, and babylonian mythology happened to mention it??
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