Boycott Denmark & Norway

The.Menace

Well-Known Member
Staff member
with rights (of freedom) come responsibilities. You place emphasis on the rights (of freedom) i place emphasis on responsibilities. infact you look at freedom as an idea which doesn't need responsibility to control it. I look at freedom as a great gift as long as i am responsible to control it.
So I am supposed to control my sister...? I don't think so. Of course freedom needs responsibility but everyone has the responsibility for his/her actions, not for anyway else....

. Is it their right to publish it? of course. But it seemed stupid and irresponsible to continue fuelling the issue after all the shit that began to happen, whereas all this could have been avoided very easilly if they had issued an apology right away, and stopped publishing the drawings in other countries.
Yes, now we have a consense, I agree. I just don't like it when people say we (as western) don't have the right to do this or that....but I agree that someone (whoever it is I don't know) did a bad job in terms of tryin to clam the situation down.
 

Jokerman

Well-Known Member
Radical Islamists, preaching holiness while doing violence, have turned Islam into a cartoon; fitting, therefore, that cartoons would set them off.

Humor punctures pomposity, sanctimony, and hypocritical piety.

Lots of testing going on by the leaders of Islam.

Look how rapidly the protests have spread around the globe. There's a plan being worked out to overload every system we have in place to help or maintain civilised societies.
 
Duke, I'll answer you here since the thread is closed.

You can wait a long time before the UN will start condemning political cartoons.
Actually, EU have already condemnt the cartoons.

And it's not hate speech. Hate speech is calling out for the annihilation of all Muslims or Jews or something.
Persecution doesn't have to be hate-speech only, it can come through various forms and you're not the one to judge WHEN and IF a group of people feels persecuted cause of what it says in the papers. if someone FEEL they're being hunted cause of their religon/ethnicity etc then he IS beeing hunted. You can then say; "how can anyone feel threatened by cartoons", well people get offended for the slightest and u and I can't judge when someone should feel what.
 

Sebastian

Well-Known Member
RFTP said:
Duke, I'll answer you here since the thread is closed.


Actually, EU have already condemnt the cartoons.



Persecution doesn't have to be hate-speech only, it can come through various forms and you're not the one to judge WHEN and IF a group of people feels persecuted cause of what it says in the papers. if someone FEEL they're being hunted cause of their religon/ethnicity etc then he IS beeing hunted. You can then say; "how can anyone feel threatened by cartoons", well people get offended for the slightest and u and I can't judge when someone should feel what.
not necessarily, maybe he just feels like he is being hunted when he is actually not.
 
beReal said:
not necessarily, maybe he just feels like he is being hunted when he is actually not.
But how do you know that? There IS a very certain possibility that extreme rightwinged (or islamophobic) will see the piece of paper as a matter of "truth". It's not far-fetched really, especially in denmark where islamophobia is pretty strong.
 

Sebastian

Well-Known Member
^
you mean extreme right-winged danish citizens will see the cartoons as a matter of truth? that they believe all muslims are terrorists?
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
RFTP said:
Duke, I'll answer you here since the thread is closed.


Actually, EU have already condemnt the cartoons.
I didn't mean condemn as in say they are inappropriate. Most Europeans find (at least some of) the cartoons inappropriate. I meant you can wait a long ass time before any official body (EU, UN) will denounce the cartoons as "totally unacceptable" and take steps that something like that cant ever happen again by limiting the freedom of speech, if you get what i mean. Most Euro's will say they are inappropriate, but no one is going to say it should be forbidden period.

RFTP said:
Persecution doesn't have to be hate-speech only, it can come through various forms and you're not the one to judge WHEN and IF a group of people feels persecuted cause of what it says in the papers. if someone FEEL they're being hunted cause of their religon/ethnicity etc then he IS beeing hunted. You can then say; "how can anyone feel threatened by cartoons", well people get offended for the slightest and u and I can't judge when someone should feel what
True. But like BeReal said, maybe some people feel they're being persecuted when they're not. I mean, a lot of muslims see this is a widefront assault on Islam, when it's not. It's still only a few Danes that actually made the cartoons, there are very few people agreeing with the message of the cartoons itself. So even though people may feel "hunted", it's not the case.

And I still can't see how you could classify them as hate speech. I admit the bomb-in-turban one may get close, as is the "eye-bar" Muhammed with the 2 women in the background. They're definitely the most tasteless of the bunch, but i simply feel they should be even more tasteless to be granted the status of hate speech. For something to be classified as hate speech imo, it needs to be really "strong".
 
beReal said:
^
you mean extreme right-winged danish citizens will see the cartoons as a matter of truth? that they believe all muslims are terrorists?

Yes kind of, not exactly but the possibility that this will only enforce prejudiced opinions and even perhaps feed a stronger hate against muslims. This can lead to things as harrasment and whatnot. I'm just saying that the possibilites ARE there and they're not very slim, not at all. So rejecting the cartoons as if they can't do any damage to the society would be wrong.
 
Duke said:
I didn't mean condemn as in say they are inappropriate. Most Europeans find (at least some of) the cartoons inappropriate. I meant you can wait a long ass time before any official body (EU, UN) will denounce the cartoons as "totally unacceptable" and take steps that something like that cant ever happen again by limiting the freedom of speech, if you get what i mean. Most Euro's will say they are inappropriate, but no one is going to say it should be forbidden period.
Actually, that was what I'm talking about, the EU-organ has condemned the cartoons, I've read this on swedish newspapers today or yesterday. However they didn't say that freedom of speech should or wil lbe limited but that they look serious to this issue. What that means, I don't know.



True. But like BeReal said, maybe some people feel they're being persecuted when they're not. I mean, a lot of muslims see this is a widefront assault on Islam, when it's not.
I'm not saying that the cartoonwriters did this on purpose to start a persecution against muslims. They did it for a joke, granted, but somebody else might carry the bag and go all the way out. Meaning, somebody will see this as a matter of truth (you wouldn't believe how easy ppl are manipulated). For example, a tv show in sweden showed about the church, through verses from the Bible, encourages ppl to not accept homosexuals. This was taken a step further by other groups who've armed themselves and wants to fight against these sinners. Just an example to show you that these things can happen especially if it comes from such a powerful tool as the media, or the church when it comes to that example.

It's still only a few Danes that actually made the cartoons, there are very few people agreeing with the message of the cartoons itself. So even though people may feel "hunted", it's not the case.
Lets, see...if someone depicts an immigrant with a knife and a bag of cash in a newspaper I'd be seriously pissed off and feel that they're "hunting" me. Bottom line, I don't feel persecuted cause of these, but judgin by the respons it got then it's obvious people feel threatened. And guess what, the mosque in Malmö (where I live) has been bombthreatened cause of the whole Denmark incident. I drove there 2 days ago, they had police patrulling the area.


And I still can't see how you could classify them as hate speech. I admit the bomb-in-turban one may get close, as is the "eye-bar" Muhammed with the 2 women in the background. They're definitely the most tasteless of the bunch, but i simply feel they should be even more tasteless to be granted the status of hate speech. For something to be classified as hate speech imo, it needs to be really "strong".
You don't HAVE to put a speech or write a debate for it to be classed as hate speech. Walking around with an armband having the Nazi symbol can be seen as a "hate speech".

Just to show you through different angles.
 

Sebastian

Well-Known Member
RFTP said:
Yes kind of, not exactly but the possibility that this will only enforce prejudiced opinions and even perhaps feed a stronger hate against muslims. This can lead to things as harrasment and whatnot. I'm just saying that the possibilites ARE there and they're not very slim, not at all. So rejecting the cartoons as if they can't do any damage to the society would be wrong.
i dont know but i think the newspaper didnt only print the cartoons, probably there was an article explaining the whole "project".

so lets say they would have shown the cartoons without any additional text then i think some people could have misunderstood it and maybe influenced them who are anti-muslim anyway.
 

Glockmatic

Well-Known Member
if you limit free speech you might as well not have free speech. Free speech comes with responsibility though, but that responsibility belongs to the person who says it, not the goverment.

Muslim extremists need to learn something from other religions. GET USE TO IT. All religions are made fun of and their rules broken, we don't see Hindus rampaging about everyone eating cows or christians burning down buildings when Jesus is mocked on comedy shows. If the Islamic world wants to advance in the world, they'll need to shed the paranoia and extremist ideals because it is those things that are lagging them behind
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
RFTP said:
Actually, that was what I'm talking about, the EU-organ has condemned the cartoons, I've read this on swedish newspapers today or yesterday. However they didn't say that freedom of speech should or wil lbe limited but that they look serious to this issue. What that means, I don't know.




I'm not saying that the cartoonwriters did this on purpose to start a persecution against muslims. They did it for a joke, granted, but somebody else might carry the bag and go all the way out. Meaning, somebody will see this as a matter of truth (you wouldn't believe how easy ppl are manipulated). For example, a tv show in sweden showed about the church, through verses from the Bible, encourages ppl to not accept homosexuals. This was taken a step further by other groups who've armed themselves and wants to fight against these sinners. Just an example to show you that these things can happen especially if it comes from such a powerful tool as the media, or the church when it comes to that example.


Lets, see...if someone depicts an immigrant with a knife and a bag of cash in a newspaper I'd be seriously pissed off and feel that they're "hunting" me. Bottom line, I don't feel persecuted cause of these, but judgin by the respons it got then it's obvious people feel threatened. And guess what, the mosque in Malmö (where I live) has been bombthreatened cause of the whole Denmark incident. I drove there 2 days ago, they had police patrulling the area.




You don't HAVE to put a speech or write a debate for it to be classed as hate speech. Walking around with an armband having the Nazi symbol can be seen as a "hate speech".

Just to show you through different angles.
People on any side take things too far, granted. But they're minorities, and extremists will, per definition, always remain a minority. Do we want to curb freedom of speech because of what extremists make of it? I say no.

I haven't researched it but I doubt many people are "swayed" by those cartoons to join the anti-Islam side.
 
Valeoz said:
I would like people to read this. A very interesting perspective on the attacks on the Danish et al from the middle east and beyond. Talks about why the attacks are happening now, and points a finger on Saudi Arabia. Covers a number of factors that the mass media seems to be ignoring.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/2/5/13149/60748
this is not true, the influence of Saudi Arabia on on sunni muslims is way exagerated.

1-the reason why the flags of KSA are being used is because they are saying "There's no God but Allah, and mohamed is his prophet".
A lot of flags during the demos also carried this sentence, some of them were black, others were green, so it's not about Saudi Arabia.

2nd, Saudi arabia has no influence what so ever on Iran, they are also big rivals. and violent protests on Iran also happened.
 
and now
http://today.reuters.com/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=uri:2006-02-07T152958Z_01_L07723729_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-CARTOONS-IRAN-HOLOCAUST.xml&pageNumber=0&summit=


Iran daily holds contest for Holocaust cartoons

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's best-selling newspaper has launched a competition to find the best cartoon about the Holocaust in retaliation for the publication in many European countries of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad.
The Brussels-based Conference of European Rabbis (CER) denounced the idea and urged the Muslim world to do likewise.

The Anti-Defamation League, which fights anti-semitism, described the competition as "deliberately inflammatory".

The Iranian daily Hamshahri said the contest was designed to test the boundaries of free speech -- the reason given by many European newspapers for publishing the cartoons of the Prophet.

"Does Western free speech allow working on issues like America and Israel's crimes or an incident like the Holocaust or is this freedom of speech only good for insulting the holy values of divine religions?" the paper asked.

Davoud Kazemi, who is in charge of the contest, told Reuters that each of the 12 winners would have their cartoons published and receive two gold coins (worth about $140 each) as a prize.

In Paris, CER President Joseph Sitruk, who is also Chief Rabbi of France, said: "The Iranian regime has plummeted to new depths if it regards the deaths of six million Jews as a matter for humor or to score cheap political points.

"Sadly, we are not surprised by this action," he said, recalling Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's calls last year for Israel to be "wiped off the map" and his dismissal of the Holocaust as a myth.

In a statement issued by the CER, which represents chief rabbis from over 40 European countries, Sitruk said the Iranian government menaced Jews and the whole international community.

Sitruk noted that European religious leaders had condemned the publication of images likely to offend Muslim feelings.

"This is a test for the Muslim world to react immediately to condemn their own co-religionists in Iran for such obscene behavior as we condemned those who sought to insult them," he said.

Iranian protesters hurled petrol bombs and stones at the Danish Embassy in Tehran for a second successive day on Tuesday and Tehran announced it had cut all trade ties with Denmark.

A Danish newspaper published the cartoons in September, and newspapers in Norway and a dozen other countries reprinted them last month, citing the need to defend freedom of speech.

A former Iranian parliamentarian argued that freedom of speech should also apply to those who questioned the Holocaust.

"Why do you make fuss or shout if a country or the head of a government expresses his doubt about the Holocaust? Why do you lie about the existence of freedom of speech in your countries?" the conservative Resalat newspaper on Tuesday quoted Ali Akbar Mohtashamipour as telling a gathering at Tehran University.

Arieh O'Sullivan, spokesman of the Anti-Defamation League's Israel office, said it was committed to free speech and a free press but that did not mean a license to foster hatred.

"What bothers us this incident has been used by the Arab world basically as an excuse to stick it to the Jews," he said.

"Iran is doing a dare to see how free the press is in Europe. This is deliberately inflammatory," O'Sullivan said, accusing newspapers in the Arab and Muslim world of frequently running cartoons of Jews that recalled Nazi propaganda.

(Additional reporting by Tom Heneghan in Paris and Allyn Fisher-Ilan in Jerusalem)
 

Pittsey

Knock, Knock...
Staff member
Khaled said:
Iran's best-selling newspaper has launched a competition to find the best cartoon about the Holocaust in retaliation for the publication in many European countries of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad.

What a dumb idea.

The Danish publish an offensive picture so let's attack the Jews!!

I bet the Jewish show a lot more dignity, than many Muslims have in the same position. Are people that stupid they think attacking another race/religion is going to make people more understanding and destroy the cliches.
 
Glockmatic said:
if you limit free speech you might as well not have free speech.
You can look at it like that, but it's not really a limit to free speech, it's just "exceptions" for a higher purpose. You have the right to a privat life and no one can intrude your privacy, hoever, if suspected that you are a threat to "peace"(just for the sake of it) then the goverment will take your rights away, for the higher purpose. But it's still hard cause nowdays almost anyone can feel offended and whatnot for the slightest remark. In Sweden, they had some commercial ads for the new chocholate called Nogger. This caused a debate (cause Nogger=Nigger for those who wanted it off) and the ads were removed from busses and stuff. So the bottom line is; It's hard to to write/publish something without stepping on somebodys toes, you will do so, but the question remains;just how many toes you've stepped on.

Free speech comes with responsibility though, but that responsibility belongs to the person who says it, not the goverment.
Of course, I agree, that's why if a person says something, he will be dragged to court and not the goverment themselves.

Muslim extremists need to learn something from other religions. GET USE TO IT. All religions are made fun of and their rules broken, we don't see Hindus rampaging about everyone eating cows or christians burning down buildings when Jesus is mocked on comedy shows. If the Islamic world wants to advance in the world, they'll need to shed the paranoia and extremist ideals because it is those things that are lagging them behind
I also agree that it was stupid and it shouldn't have gotten so much attention at all...
 

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