Are you blind, Chistians

[W210]

the bible does not state the size of the cedar when describing the behemoth. Was it the size of a full grown tree? Was it a twig?

17 He moveth his tail like a cedar
not like a twig, tail like a cedar.

the bible also says the leviathans eyes shot beams and breathed fire

It doesnt say his eyes shot beams.

There are some creatures today that do, in effect, give out light or fire. Fire flies produce light, eels produce electricity, and bombardier beetles produce explosive chemical reactions. All of these involve complex chemical processes, and it does not seem at all impossible that an animal might be given the ability to breathe out certain gaseous fumes which, upon coming in contact with oxygen, would briefly ignite. Dinosaur fossils have been excavated that show a strange protuberance, with internal cavity, on the top of the head. It is conceivable that this could have served as a sort of mixing chamber for combustible gases that would ignite when exhaled into the outside oxygen.




Job 41:1-34

Can you draw out Leviathan with a fishhook? Or press down his tongue with a cord? Can you put a rope in his nose? Or pierce his jaw with a hook? Will he make many supplications to you? Or will he speak to you soft words? Will he make a covenant with you? Will you take him for a servant forever? Will you play with him as with a bird? Or will you bind him for your maidens? Will the traders bargain over him? Will they divide him among the merchants? Can you fill his skin with harpoons, Or his head with fishing spears? Lay your hand on him; Remember the battle; you will not do it again! Behold, your expectation is false; Will you be laid low even at the sight of him? No one is so fierce that he dares to arouse him; Who then is he that can stand before Me? Who has given to Me that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heaven is Mine. I will not keep silence concerning his limbs, Or his mighty strength, or his orderly frame. Who can strip off his outer armor? Who can come within his double mail? Who can open the doors of his face? Around his teeth there is terror. His strong scales are his pride, Shut up as with a tight seal. One is so near to another, That no air can come between them. They are joined one to another; They clasp each other and cannot be separated. His sneezes flash forth light, And his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. Out of his mouth go burning torches; Sparks of fire leap forth. Out of his nostrils smoke goes forth, As from a boiling pot and burning rushes. His breath kindles coals, And a flame goes forth from his mouth. In his neck lodges strength, And dismay leaps before him. The folds of his flesh are joined together, Firm on him and immovable. His heart is as hard as a stone; Even as hard as a lower millstone. When he raises himself up, the mighty fear; Because of the crashing they are bewildered. The sword that reaches him cannot avail; Nor the spear, the dart, or the javelin. He regards iron as straw, Bronze as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee; Slingstones are turned into stubble for him. Clubs are regarded as stubble; He laughs at the rattling of the javelin. His underparts are like sharp potsherds; He spreads out like a threshing sledge on the mire. He makes the depths boil like a pot; He makes the sea like a jar of ointment. Behind him he makes a wake to shine; One would think the deep to be gray-haired. Nothing on earth is like him, One made without fear. He looks on everything that is high; He is king over all the sons of pride.

 

[Glockmatic]

You could just copy/paste your theories too, because they're the same as creationist websites out there, i'll give you the link and you can just search all those theories and they'll all be answered by science, both bias (such as authors who soley wrote books to refute earlier writtings) and the unbias (books written on the subject only). Heres the link to the magnetic field decaying you speak of http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD701.html

 

[W210]

Evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable.

Arthur Keith evolutionary anthropologist


Creationists are disqualified from making a positive case, because science by definition is based upon naturalism. The rules of science also disqualify any purely negative argumentation designed to dilute the persuasiveness of the theory of evolution. Creationism is thus out of court and out of the classroom before any consideration of evidence. Put yourself in the place of a creationist who has been silenced by that logic, and you may feel like a criminal defendant who has just been told that the law does not recognize so absurd a concept as "innocence."



Another source of evidence of a young earth is the population growth. Evolutionists believe that man has been on the earth for atleast a million years.
Henry Morris has calculated that an average growth of 1/2 percent per year (which is 1/4 the present rate), would yield the present population in just 4,000 years. 1/2 percent allows ample room for times of war and disease, when population growth was far below normal.
It is statistically inconceivable that only 5.4 billion people could have resulted from one million years of evolutionary history.
The number of people if increasing at 1/2 percent for a million years would be 10 to the 2100th power.
WOW

 

[Flipmo]

the bible does not state the size of the cedar when describing the behemoth. Was it the size of a full grown tree? Was it a twig?



the bible also says the leviathans eyes shot beams and breathed fire

I dunno about the eye shooting beams, mind specifying where's that from?

And about the breathing fire, I can see how ridiculous that may sound, but if the bombardier beetle can do it (even thorw it's not really fire, it's a very high temperatured gas that acts like a flame thrower), would it really be impossible for a 'Leviathan' to be able to do the same or something similar?

but the eye beams kinda confuses me. lol

 

[W210]

I dunno about the eye shooting beams, mind specifying where's that from?

And about the breathing fire, I can see how ridiculous that may sound, but if the bombardier beetle can do it (even thorw it's not really fire, it's a very high temperatured gas that acts like a flame thrower), would it really be impossible for a 'Leviathan' to be able to do the same or something similar?

but the eye beams kinda confuses me. lol

It doesnt say his eyes shoot beams it says "his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning"
Which to me indicates color more than anything.

 

[Flipmo]

It doesnt say his eyes shoot beams it says "his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning"
Which to me indicates color more than anything.

If anything it indicates a 2nd eyelids that Crocodiles have for example and many other reptiles imo.

 

[Glockmatic]

17 He moveth his tail like a cedar
not like a twig, tail like a cedar.

when i said twig i meant a young cedar tree or seedling.

There are some creatures today that do, in effect, give out light or fire. Fire flies produce light, eels produce electricity, and bombardier beetles produce explosive chemical reactions. All of these involve complex chemical processes, and it does not seem at all impossible that an animal might be given the ability to breathe out certain gaseous fumes which, upon coming in contact with oxygen, would briefly ignite. Dinosaur fossils have been excavated that show a strange protuberance, with internal cavity, on the top of the head. It is conceivable that this could have served as a sort of mixing chamber for combustible gases that would ignite when exhaled into the outside oxygen.

another theory by Henry Morris. If the story of job actually took place the time it was suppose to (1800-1600bc?), why did no other culture see these dinosaurs that breathed fire? The chinese have 5000 years of written history, none of them have records of a dinosaur or dragon (and no, the chinese dragon is nowhere near what dinosaurs look like).

 

[Glockmatic]

Another source of evidence of a young earth is the population growth. Evolutionists believe that man has been on the earth for atleast a million years.
Henry Morris has calculated that an average growth of 1/2 percent per year (which is 1/4 the present rate), would yield the present population in just 4,000 years. 1/2 percent allows ample room for times of war and disease, when population growth was far below normal.
It is statistically inconceivable that only 5.4 billion people could have resulted from one million years of evolutionary history.
The number of people if increasing at 1/2 percent for a million years would be 10 to the 2100th power.
WOW

The population growth from 1000 to 1800 has been closer to 0.1227 percent per year (Encyclopaedia Britannica 1984), henry morris is once again pulling numbers out of his ass. The worlds population does not follow a static 0.5% a year, that could only happen if there were unlimited land, food and resources which is impossible. Before agriculture the percentage would've been 0.0% for years. Include war, famine and disease with the new percentages and it makes perfect sense, and once again henry morris is wrong

 

[Glockmatic]

I dunno about the eye shooting beams, mind specifying where's that from?

And about the breathing fire, I can see how ridiculous that may sound, but if the bombardier beetle can do it (even thorw it's not really fire, it's a very high temperatured gas that acts like a flame thrower), would it really be impossible for a 'Leviathan' to be able to do the same or something similar?

but the eye beams kinda confuses me. lol

18 His snorting throws out flashes of light;
his eyes are like the rays of dawn.

there are many translations of that line. Could it be possible for a "leviathan"? Possibly, but there is no fossils of it, and no historical records of a fire-breathing dinosaur/lizard in any cultures history, not china, india, greek or egyptian.

 

[W210]

The population growth from 1000 to 1800 has been closer to 0.1227 percent per year (Encyclopaedia Britannica 1984), henry morris is once again pulling numbers out of his ass. The worlds population does not follow a static 0.5% a year, that could only happen if there were unlimited land, food and resources which is impossible. Before agriculture the percentage would've been 0.0% for years. Include war, famine and disease with the new percentages and it makes perfect sense, and once again henry morris is wrong

What is the average population growth of the last few thousand years. Im sure at times it has been higher than it is now, and like you said at times its way lower, but it is still a valid argument, because our population is nowhere near what it should be If we had that amount of time.

 

[W210]

18 His snorting throws out flashes of light;
his eyes are like the rays of dawn.

there are many translations of that line. Could it be possible for a "leviathan"? Possibly, but there is no fossils of it, and no historical records of a fire-breathing dinosaur/lizard in any cultures history, not china, india, greek or egyptian.

Well like I posted earlier there are chambers on some dinosaurs skulls that some experts believe may have been used for mixing flamable chemicals. And multiple societies that were widely separated tell stories of fire-breathing dragons. Why did they all chance upon the dragon? But we have fossils of Plesiosaurs which is what some believe the leviathon to be.


And I thought there have been lots of chinese paintings and stories of dragons and sea monsters throughout history?

 

[Glockmatic]

What is the average population growth of the last few thousand years. Im sure at times it has been higher than it is now, and like you said at times its way lower, but it is still a valid argument, because our population is nowhere near what it should be If we had that amount of time.

population growth has never been as high as it has been now, there would be no way it could because now we have higher birth rates, more food, medicines, better living conditions.

Well like I posted earlier there are chambers on some dinosaurs skulls that some experts believe may have been used for mixing flamable chemicals. And multiple societies that were widely separated tell stories of fire-breathing dragons. Why did they all chance upon the dragon? But we have fossils of Plesiosaurs which is what some believe the leviathon to be.


And I thought there have been lots of chinese paintings and stories of dragons and sea monsters throughout history?

Many skulls have "chambers" but we don't associate those skulls with fire breathers, they're just there for muscle cavities or resonating chambers for speech/calls. Multiple societies have stories of firebreathing dragons because they took the story of job and drew what they believed to be the leviathan or behemoth. Fire breathing was associated with many myths in the past, the greeks even had fire breathing bulls.

The chinese dragon is much more different than other cultures dragons, they're mixes of animals such as elk horns, camel head, fish scales, eagle claws and tiger feet. They flew without wings and controlled weather while carrying a flaming pearl, and were symbols of emperors. Sea monsters were probably giant squad (the kraken) or whales that sailors misidentified.

 

[W210]

population growth has never been as high as it has been now, there would be no way it could because now we have higher birth rates, more food, medicines, better living conditions.

Well the growth being highest now makes sense because we have more people now than ever before, but that still doesnt explain it for me. Birth rates are higher, but as for food and better living conditions Im not so sure. People have always been healthy and lived long lives, but we live longer now, I know but we also dont physically work as hard. Also there wasnt really any birth control to speak of in the past like today either.

Many skulls have "chambers" but we don't associate those skulls with fire breathers, they're just there for muscle cavities or resonating chambers for speech/calls. Multiple societies have stories of firebreathing dragons because they took the story of job and drew what they believed to be the leviathan or behemoth. Fire breathing was associated with many myths in the past, the greeks even had fire breathing bulls.

The chinese dragon is much more different than other cultures dragons, they're mixes of animals such as elk horns, camel head, fish scales, eagle claws and tiger feet. They flew without wings and controlled weather while carrying a flaming pearl, and were symbols of emperors. Sea monsters were probably giant squad (the kraken) or whales that sailors misidentified.

But there are experts that think that they could have been used for flamable chemicals, like the bombardier beetle. And the rumors of fire breathing monsters is really widespread. Im not even sure the chinese had the Bible to model their fire breathing monsters after. But I do realize the chinese dragons look nothing like what we have evidence of.

And I dont think giant squid are seen at the surface very often, and there are lots of stories of monsters attacking boats. I dunno though its just somthing to think about.

 

[Glockmatic]

Well the growth being highest now makes sense because we
have more people now than ever before, but that still doesnt explain it for me. Birth rates are higher, but as for food and better living conditions Im not so sure. People have always been healthy and lived long lives, but we live longer now, I know but we also dont physically work as hard. Also there wasnt really any birth control to speak of in the past like today either.

People have not always been healthy or had a lot of food. If people had good living conditions than the plagues would have never happened. Food was grown enough to eat, they hardly exported food because agricultural techniques were primitive compared to today where drought doesn't have an impact as it did hundreds of years ago (irrigation techniques etc).

Life expectency in the US at 1900 was 49, 100 years later it's 79. China and India's life expectancy was 40 at 1950, now its 60. If we go back even furth the life expectancy is much much lower.

# Bronze Age, 18
# Classical Greece, 28
# Classical Rome, 28
# Medieval England, 33
# End of 19th Century, 37

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy a nice page of info to show the history of life expectancy and the worlds life expectancy.

I don't know what birth control has to do with this? Woman die far less now during childbirth because of new medical procedures, and new borns die a lot less because of medicines. In the past the mother would have a big chance of dying of blood loss or complications and the babies would have a chance of dying from complications during birth or infections.

But there are experts that think that they could have been used for flamable chemicals, like the bombardier beetle. And the rumors of fire breathing monsters is really widespread. Im not even sure the chinese had the Bible to model their fire breathing monsters after. But I do realize the chinese dragons look nothing like what we have evidence of.

Thats just a theory though, they have no proof that those chambers contained any chemicals and there is no special adaption in dinosaur skulls to protect it from its own fire.

Chinese dragons came from oral traditions and were revered as divine beings who controlled winds and rain.

And I dont think giant squid are seen at the surface very often, and there are lots of stories of monsters attacking boats. I dunno though its just somthing to think about.

but giant squid do exist and have been known to attack large things (such as whales).

 

[W210]

People have not always been healthy or had a lot of food. If people had good living conditions than the plagues would have never happened. Food was grown enough to eat, they hardly exported food because agricultural techniques were primitive compared to today where drought doesn't have an impact as it did hundreds of years ago (irrigation techniques etc).

Life expectency in the US at 1900 was 49, 100 years later it's 79. China and India's life expectancy was 40 at 1950, now its 60. If we go back even furth the life expectancy is much much lower.

# Bronze Age, 18
# Classical Greece, 28
# Classical Rome, 28
# Medieval England, 33
# End of 19th Century, 37

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy a nice page of info to show the history of life expectancy and the worlds life expectancy.

But also families were bigger and had more children in times past too. And there is still famine going on today,
I dont know Im not convinced on this one, maybe Im just hard headed.

I don't know what birth control has to do with this? Woman die far less now during childbirth because of new medical procedures, and new borns die a lot less because of medicines. In the past the mother would have a big chance of dying of blood loss or complications and the babies would have a chance of dying from complications during birth or infections.

I brought up birth control just to show that if there was no forms of birth control, just think what the population growth would be today! It would be way way bigger than it already is. And before birth control I just see more kids, because we didnt have the means for controlling the population like today..

Thats just a theory though, they have no proof that those chambers contained any chemicals and there is no special adaption in dinosaur skulls to protect it from its own fire.

I realize that, I just brought it up as a point to ponder. And the bombardier beetle has its own buffer, but I dont think its skeletal, and we wouldnt see this, if it were the case, in the dino skulls.

Chinese dragons came from oral traditions and were revered as divine beings who controlled winds and rain.

I know they went kind of overboard on the dragons, I just find it interesting, that various cultures have simalar stories of monsters.

but giant squid do exist and have been known to attack large things (such as whales).

But sea going dinosaurs existed too, and this is also a possibilty.

 

[Glockmatic]

But also families were bigger and had more children in times past too. And there is still famine going on today,
I dont know Im not convinced on this one, maybe Im just hard headed.

http://www.rtis.com/nat/user/elsberry/evobio/evc/argresp/populate.html

that would be an estimate of the earths population if we put the 0.5% growth into effect after noahs ark flood

World Population Date Event

17 2566 BC Construction of Great Pyramid
2,729 1332 BC Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten dies
5,000 1185 BC Trojan War
1200 BC Hebrew exodus, # of males = 603,550 (excluding Levites)
32,971 776 BC First Olympic games
87,507 490 BC Greek wars with Persia
133,744 387 BC Brennus' Sack of Rome
586,678 28 BC Augustus' census of Rome (70 to 100 million counted)
655,683 1 AD Nice date

 

[W210]

http://www.rtis.com/nat/user/elsberry/evobio/evc/argresp/populate.html

that would be an estimate of the earths population if we put the 0.5% growth into effect after noahs ark flood

World Population Date Event

17 2566 BC Construction of Great Pyramid
2,729 1332 BC Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten dies
5,000 1185 BC Trojan War
1200 BC Hebrew exodus, # of males = 603,550 (excluding Levites)
32,971 776 BC First Olympic games
87,507 490 BC Greek wars with Persia
133,744 387 BC Brennus' Sack of Rome
586,678 28 BC Augustus' census of Rome (70 to 100 million counted)
655,683 1 AD Nice date

That has to be way off. Are they saying that there was only 17 people when they built a pyramid??? I dont think thats possible.

And its not just the population growth, that bothers me. Just look at how much we have come along in the last 2000 years. We went from riding donkeys to riding ferarris, and thats just 2000 years. Every generation is going to be more intellegent than the previous because of knowledge being passed down. If people have been around for 1,000,000 years, we would have advanced way faster.

 

[Glockmatic]

That has to be way off. Are they saying that there was only 17 people when they built a pyramid??? I dont think thats possible.

thats the calculations if there was a global flood like described in the bible.

And its not just the population growth, that bothers me. Just look at how much we have come along in the last 2000 years. We went from riding donkeys to riding ferarris, and thats just 2000 years. Every generation is going to be more intellegent than the previous because of knowledge being passed down. If people have been around for 1,000,000 years, we would have advanced way faster.

Technological advancement was slow for thousands of years, look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_invention , technology did not really explode until the 18th century when the industrial revolution took place.

 

[W210]

thats the calculations if there was a global flood like described in the bible.

There is no way those calculations are correct. Im not sure I trust the math of anyone who uses words like "I aint got beef with".
I try and mess with that more tonight, because with a million years... there should be way more.

Technological advancement was slow for thousands of years, look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_invention , technology did not really explode until the 18th century when the industrial revolution took place.

OK so what went on for the first 997,000 years? All we could come up with are simple tools, I dont buy it. People are smarter and more resourceful than that.

 

[Glockmatic]

There is no way those calculations are correct. Im not sure I trust the math of anyone who uses words like "I aint got beef with".
I try and mess with that more tonight, because with a million years... there should be way more.

well you could do the calculations yourself, from 2 (noahs ark) x 0.5 (supposed growth rate), and the numbers would be true.

OK so what went on for the first 997,000 years? All we could come up with are simple tools, I dont buy it. People are smarter and more resourceful than that.

If something worked they didn't fix it. Thats why there are still tribes people who still use bow and arrow to hunt and straw huts to live in. Also humans showed up half a million years ago, not a million. And if you look at the link that i posted it shows discoveries made 500,000 years ago that we know of