Arab-American woman speaks out on the clash of civilizations

[jaimie.uk fan]

She had some very good points and spoke a lot of truth imo and i agree with a lot she said

Muslims never like their religion and way of life questioned especialy when the truth is told .

Khaled - just because she's speaking against islam doesn't make her a hero. she's just trying to get back at islam cuz some extremists killed her teacher when she was young.

I think she was very brave to speak on how she feels and surely knows the reaction it may cause , she does deserve a medal imo and she well may be angry at the death of her teacher but i think she points out a little to much truth and points to a lot that is wrong with Islam to be just after revenge for her teacher . I would be interested in anyone arguing a lot that she has said because its the truth - In the immortal words of Jack Nicholson -YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH .


Along with many points i agreed with her on , this question was interesting - I would be interested in any thoughts on this .

Wafa Sultan: Can you explain to me the killing of a hundred thousand children, women and men in Algeria, using the most abominable killing methods? Can you explain to me the killing of 15,000 Syrian civilians? Can you explain to me the abominable crime in the military artillery school in Aleppo? Can you explain the crime in Al-Asbaqiya neighborhood of Damascus, Syria? Can you explain the attack of the terrorists on the peaceful village of Al-Kisheh in Upper Egypt, and the massacre of 21 Coptic peasants? Can you explain to me what is going on in Indonesia, Turkey, and Egypt, even though these are Islamic countries which opposed the American intervention in Iraq, and which don't have armies in Iraq, yet were not spared by the terrorists? Can you explain these phenomena, which took place in Arab countries? Was all this revenge on America or Israel? Or were they merely to satisfy bestial wild instincts aroused in them by religious teachings, which incite to rejection of the other, to the killing of the other, and to the denial of the other. When Saddam Hussein buried 300,000 Shiites and Kurds alive, we did not hear a single Muslim protesting. Your silence served to acknowledge the legitimacy of these killings, didn't it?...

 

[TecK NeeX]

Yeah, mostly in the West where they won't get a thousand death threats for doing so.

Yes thats because the U.S and the rest of the west are free of death threats, The millions of innocent Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus who had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 received no death threats whatsoever after the attacks right?

 

[TecK NeeX]

She had some very good points and spoke a lot of truth imo and i agree with a lot she said

Hey man dont pretend like you know what she's saying is the truth. if you do then please back up her claims since she can't. you of all people shouldn't speak about history. Plz dont even make an attempt.Ok?

Muslims never like their religion and way of life questioned especialy when the truth is told .

No we dont like it when Ignorant full fo shit liers make up fallacious claims against the Islamic faith.

Along with many points i agreed with her on , this question was interesting - I would be interested in any thoughts on this .

What is there to argue? one doesnt need to look far into her accusations to learn that she is full of horseshit. She went as far as accusing saddam of Burrying 300 000 shiites and kurds Alive. When the fuck did happen? Does she fucking know that it was the kurds and shiites who rebeled against him and attempted to overthrow him? they declared war on the guy, he merely did what any other world leader would have done, he silenced them, so then he burried the dead. what the fuck does she expect? leave the corpses on the street to rot?

Also when did Algeria murder 100 000 thousand women children and men? does she mean when the french invaded and occupied Algeria for many years? the yes the french did murder thousands of Algerians

If i were to list the atrocities and massacres commited by the west this thread would be about a thousand page long. do i have the right to put blame on christianity for that? fuck no.

 

[bigmack]

all i heard coming from her mouth was burp fart burp fart

 

[Jokerman]

Yes thats because the U.S and the rest of the west are free of death threats, The millions of innocent Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus who had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 received no death threats whatsoever after the attacks right?

I'm talking about the freedom to express one's views without getting death threats and you're talking about some ppl's reaction to the biggest attack on US soil. If a 911 is what it takes for some ppl in the West to act as bad as the medieval hordes in the Mideast do all the time at the drop of a hat (or cartoon), then I say that's a pretty good record for us.

Look, sure she's probably wrong about all the details of what she says (just like you are sometimes but will never admit), and she's only looking at one point-of-view (like you also), but her main point is that Muslims are not looking at their culture as a source of their problems. And they need to be. You can't change someone else; you can only change yourself. And others might change as a result.

 

[jaimie.uk fan]

I shall try and explain my reasons as to why i agree with her Mr Teck Neex although i realy do not need to explain myself to you .

Wafa Sultan: The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions, or a clash of civilizations. It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality. It is a clash between freedom and oppression, between democracy and dictatorship. It is a clash between human rights, on the one hand, and the violation of these rights, on other hand. It is a clash between those who treat women like beasts, and those who treat them like human beings. What we see today is not a clash of civilizations. Civilizations do not clash, but compete.

As far as i can see she is painting a very clear picture of Islam imo , it needs to come out of the dark ages and realise that woman are not slaves , that Islam is so obviously not superior and is an oppresive faith , she talks a lot of sense to me .

Wafa Sultan: The Muslims are the ones who began using this expression. The Muslims are the ones who began the clash of civilizations. The Prophet of Islam said: "I was ordered to fight the people until they believe in Allah and His Messenger.

Again i have heard this before - The same type of ranting that Muslims living of the state in the u.k. preech - Hatred of anyone not a follower of Islam - What part of this statement is a lie ?

I am not a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew. I am a secular human being. I do not believe in the supernatural, but I respect others' right to believe in it
Brother, you can believe in stones, as long as you don't throw them at me. You are free to worship whoever you want, but other people's beliefs are not your concern, whether they believe that the Messiah is God, son of Mary, or that Satan is God, son of Mary. Let people have their beliefs.

I have personaly said this type of statement myself - I couldnt care who you worship just do not rub it in my face and certinaly do not use your faith as an excuse to kill , Unfortunatly correct me if im wrong but doesnt Islam look on other religions in disdain - Again what part of what she says here is a lie or a wrong statement ?

Wafa Sultan: The Jews have come from the tragedy (of the Holocaust), and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror, with their work, not their crying and yelling. Humanity owes most of the discoveries and science of the 19th and 20th centuries to Jewish scientists. 15 million people, scattered throughout the world, united and won their rights through work and knowledge. We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people. The Muslims have turned three Buddha statues into rubble. We have not seen a single Buddhist burn down a Mosque, kill a Muslim, or burn down an embassy. Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people, and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them.

I like this part - Please agrue this point Mr Teck neex - Again she talks the truth here , Again I would like to see this part argued - Again what part if this statement is a lie ?

Wafa Sultan: Why does a young Muslim man, in the prime of life, with a full life ahead, go and blow himself up? How and why does he blow himself up in a bus full of innocent passengers?
In our countries, religion is the sole source of education, and is the only spring from which that terrorist drank until his thirst was quenched. He was not born a terrorist, and did not become a terrorist overnight. Islamic teachings played a role in weaving his ideological fabric, thread by thread, and did not allow other sources – I am referring to scientific sources – to play a role. It was these teachings that distorted this terrorist and killed his humanity. It was not (the terrorist) who distorted the religious teachings and misunderstood them, as some ignorant people claim.

Again what part of this statement is untrue ?

Teek Neex - If i were to list the atrocities and massacres commited by the west this thread would be about a thousand page long. do i have the right to put blame on christianity for that?

Again the first and only excuse or reason given to terrorist and Islamic attrocities where people are killed in the name of Islam , i knew you would come up with this Just like i knew Muslims would be on the back foot over this discusion -

Just like the Cartoons - People were offended at the humor but to quote another film - " We laugh at things because they are Funny and we laugh at things because they are true "

It caused uproar because there was an element of truth in those cartoons just like this interview will cause uproar as again their is truth in her words and like i said before Muslims do not like their Faith questioned - The only thing that remains to be seen is what happens because of this interview - I guarentee there will be uproar and will muslims carry themselves with the same dignity as the jewish as Wafa Sultan explains ??

Will they fuck .

 

[Duke]

Look, sure she's probably wrong about all the details of what she says (just like you are sometimes but will never admit), and she's only looking at one point-of-view (like you also), but her main point is that Muslims are not looking at their culture as a source of their problems. And they need to be. You can't change someone else; you can only change yourself. And others might change as a result.

Truth. She generalizes, demonizes and does all kinds of things one shouldn't do in a discussion, but her ^main point^ stands firm as a house.

 

[Jurhum]

^ What's her main point? That Muslims have never contributed to humanity? That Muslims are backward? That Muslims are the murderers?

I didn't want to even argue in this thread. It's not worth it. She might have had a few points that I might have agreed with her on. But, she got her head way up her ass it's hard to agree with that lady.

 

[Valeoz]

are you serious??
so all te palestinians who saw christians or jews kill their familly are allowed to hate anything related to christiannity or judaism??

I'm talking about positive change. But a scenario of negative change could also happen, just like you said. I guess it would depend on the individual's stance. I don't know the lady enough to know where she stands.

 

[Jokerman]

Wafa Sultan: "Humanity owes most of the discoveries and science of the 19th and 20th centuries to Jewish scientists."

Me- "Can you tell us the name of one Jewish scientist from the 19th century? Maybe there were some, but tell us one we heard of."

Wafa:"We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."

Me- http://www.clemsonmasjid.org/lectures/palestine.history/page18.html

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=103996

Me- "You are clearly an infidel without a clue of what you're talking about. You lie, you die."

 

[Duke]

^ What's her main point? That Muslims have never contributed to humanity? That Muslims are backward? That Muslims are the murderers?

I didn't want to even argue in this thread. It's not worth it. She might have had a few points that I might have agreed with her on. But, she got her head way up her ass it's hard to agree with that lady.

Her main point is that there is a problem in Middle Eastern culture which is fuelled by religion.

 

[TecK NeeX]

I shall try and explain my reasons as to why i agree with her Mr Teck Neex although i realy do not need to explain myself to you .

As far as i can see she is painting a very clear picture of Islam imo , it needs to come out of the dark ages and realise that woman are not slaves , that Islam is so obviously not superior and is an oppresive faith , she talks a lot of sense to me .

Again i have heard this before - The same type of ranting that Muslims living of the state in the u.k. preech - Hatred of anyone not a follower of Islam - What part of this statement is a lie ?

I have personaly said this type of statement myself - I couldnt care who you worship just do not rub it in my face and certinaly do not use your faith as an excuse to kill , Unfortunatly correct me if im wrong but doesnt Islam look on other religions in disdain - Again what part of what she says here is a lie or a wrong statement ?

I like this part - Please agrue this point Mr Teck neex - Again she talks the truth here , Again I would like to see this part argued - Again what part if this statement is a lie ?

Again what part of this statement is untrue ?

I didn't ask you to repost her points and ask me which i do and dont agree with, i've already read everything she said, no need for you to post them again. I asked you to back up any of her fallacious accusations against Islam. You're agreeing with her not because what she said is fact but simply because she felt the need to let her hate for islam show so you jumped on the band wagon.

Here is how i know this: you said and i quote

Wafa Sultan: The Prophet of Islam said: "I was ordered to fight the people until they believe in Allah and His Messenger.


YOU: What part of this statement is a lie?

Its clear isn't it? why would you agree with her and call what she said as "truth" when in fact it's not true at all? How do you exactly know what the prophet said when you earlier said you'll never want anything to do with Islam? have you read the Qur'an to ask me what part of that statement is a lie?

If i made up the claim that your dad is a pedophile and then jokerman came along and agreed with me and said i was speaking the truth when obviously i wasn't, would you think jokerman is full of shit? im pretty sure you would, so yeah im gonna have to say it, i think you're full of shit


Now lets look at the lies

Lie 1 - She said The prophet was ordered to kill everyong who refused to follow islam

lie 2 - She said Saddam burried 300 000 shiites and Kurds alive

Lie 3 - She said Algeria murdered 100 000 men women and children

Lie 4 - She said Muslims dont allow other faiths to practice their religion freely, obvious lie

Lie 5 - She said Muslims blow themselves up because of islamic teachings and that because their entire familes being blown up to pieces by western apaches, tanks, fighter jets, invasion and occupation had nothing to do with it.

Lie 6 - Jews dont violently protest which resulted in the killings of many

Lie 7 - Jews dont blow mosques and churches. I can name many and i mean many instances where jewish extremists/forces have raided and partially-to-entirely damaged mosques and churches

Shall i go on?

 

[Jokerman]

then jokerman came along and agreed with me and said i was speaking the truth when obviously i wasn't, would you think jokerman is full of shit? im pretty sure you would...

He speaks the truth.

 

[TecK NeeX]

^ oh I wouldn't be surprised

CHICAGO, Illinois (CNN) -- An Internet chat room that streamed video of live child molestations has been shut down and 27 people have been charged with online child pornography offenses, federal authorities said Wednesday.

Justice Department and Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials still are looking for one suspect after an undercover sting operation shut down a Web site called "Kiddypics & Kiddyvids."

One of the seven molestation victims was younger than 18 months, according to the Justice Department.

Thirteen of the people charged are from the United States, nine from Canada, three from Australia and two from England, according to the Justice Department. Charges in the United States include criminal complaints unsealed in Illinois, Tennessee, Michigan, Nevada, Florida, New York, Arizona, Hawaii and North Carolina. Most of those charged are identified only by their screen name.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/15/childporn.arrests/index.html

OMG look what the west is responsible for, After this i now believe every individual who is from the west is a low life fucking pedophile, I wanna go on a generalizing spree. Western societies are good for nothing but producing child pornography, sick fuckers. They oppress children and make them live in the "dark ages" as jamie said. also in the words of Wafa, the west needs to stop treating children like beasts and sex toys.

brought to you by an Arab-Canadian who is brave enough to speak out against the clash of western adults and western children

Let the death threats roll in

 

[Jokerman]

OMG look what the west is responsible for, After this i now believe every individual who is from the west is a low life fucking pedophile, I wanna go on a generalizing spree. Western societies are good for nothing but producing child pornography

First, she was talking about a culture, not every individual in it. Second, Muslims do talk about Western culture as being perverted and immoral, etc, and I agree with that generalization. Sometimes generalizations fit. If the shoe fits, wear it.

 

[XIAN]

If "Islam" could be put on trial, this woman would not be an acceptable witness because her college professor (who was probably a mentor/friend) was murdered by "Islamic" terrorists. Basically after this happened, she asked herself why they would do such a thing, and instead of blaming the CAUSE, she blamed the effect, or those who carry it out. This is common for people who have been through such tragedies. This is why there is the death penalty, and why Nancy Grace and John Walsh both have TV shows based on putting criminals behind bars. Instead of trying to make sense of the crimes committed against them (understanding/preventing criminal acts), they have decided to get revenge.

But anyway she ended up blaming the Koran and now she has a bias against all things Islam. She still hurts from what happened, and she still hates those who did it.

The saddest part is that she is convincing people that this is the "truth," when clearly the truth is that Islam is a religion that teaches a beautiful "submission" to God, becoming close to him on a deeply spiritual, one-on-one level and, as I like to refer to it, keeping him in their hearts at all times.

So when Israel came through with guns and tanks, and violently removed Arab families from their land and homes, it was not taken lightly. Jerusalem is a very holy place, and for someone to try to remove Muhammed's legacy from his (second or third) homeland, it is an insult against God and against everything that life was for. That's why there is "terrorism." Muhammed brought an inner peace and meaning to Arabia, and in 1967, that peace was insulted and threatened.

Why was Hamas elected in a landslide? Because the people know this. They know when they see soldiers and tanks in the street, when Arab-Israelis are arrested and tortured, when they have to cross the gated borders, get out their (hard to aquire) ID cards, and walk back into the fucking slums where they live, and there are no Jews unless they're carrying a gun or driving a bull-dozer. And that's the truth about what's really going on.

If you don't believe me, just walk into a local mosque and talk to them, they'll tell you what Islam is.
~peace~

 

[Jokerman]

So when Israel came through with guns and tanks, and violently removed Arab families from their land and homes, it was not taken lightly. Jerusalem is a very holy place, and for someone to try to remove Muhammed's legacy from his (second or third) homeland, it is an insult against God and against everything that life was for. That's why there is "terrorism."

If Israel could be put on trial, Palestinians and Muslims would not be acceptable witnesses. Instead of blaming the CAUSE, they blamed the effect, or those who carry it out. This is common for people who have been through such tragedies. Now they seek revenge.

 

[jaimie.uk fan]

You're agreeing with her not because what she said is fact but simply because she felt the need to let her hate for islam show so you jumped on the band wagon.

Firstly i will say im not jumping on the band wagon, i have argued very much along the lines of most of what she has said in many arguments with yourself and others so to say im jumping on the band wagon is incorrect . You must know my stand point on these type of arguments by now.

I agree with Dukes comment - She generalizes, demonizes and does all kinds of things one shouldn't do in a discussion, but her ^main point^ stands firm as a house.

Her main point is that there is a problem in Middle Eastern culture which is fuelled by religion.

She is right and thats what you cannot handle , there are big problems in your religion and the Eastern culture and i would respect you more and others if you stood up and admited this


But no -

You keep pointing fingers to the west when realy a lot of the problems are at your religions doorstep - woman ARE treated as second class citizens , there ARE people who wrongly kill innocent people in the name of your religion , there IS hatred amoungst islamic followers against anything non-muslim

but do you agree with her points on this ?

No you pick out parts you say are untrue in her argument and attack her on these to side step what she is realy talking about and go back to blaming the West when a lot of her points are against the religion and has nothing to do with the West .
Thats the truth Mr Teck Neex .

Now im not saying that your religion on the whole is evil and that you are evil but You all seem to be in denial -

Denial that nothing is wrong with the Islamic faith

Many people in your faith think anything that is considered wrong is ok as long as its in the name of Islam , that anything that is against the name of Islam is wrong and should be punished , Is this the peaceful religion many claim Islam to be ?

I seriously think Wafa Sultan has a point that you need to wake up and come into the twenty first centuary and maybe look at your religion on the whole and some of its teachings - change for the better , root out the evil , its a book written a long time ago my friend - A book you rightly say i havent read but its obvious to see that its teachings can be twisted but I feel if people want to follow its teachings in a peaceful maner great but many who follow Islam do not and thats the big problem .

Now im sure i will be attacked - negative reps the lot but i feel that i have spoken very fairly and given a good opinion regardles if you agree or not .

 

[bigmack]

^ oh I wouldn't be surprised



http://edition.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/15/childporn.arrests/index.html

OMG look what the west is responsible for, After this i now believe every individual who is from the west is a low life fucking pedophile, I wanna go on a generalizing spree. Western societies are good for nothing but producing child pornography, sick fuckers. They oppress children and make them live in the "dark ages" as jamie said. also in the words of Wafa, the west needs to stop treating children like beasts and sex toys.

brought to you by an Arab-Canadian who is brave enough to speak out against the clash of western adults and western children

Let the death threats roll in

you are a brave man.you deserve a medal.

 

[Khaled]

If Israel could be put on trial, Palestinians and Muslims would not be acceptable witnesses. Instead of blaming the CAUSE, they blamed the effect, or those who carry it out. This is common for people who have been through such tragedies. Now they seek revenge.

you got this wrong

i think your argument is valid if you had said "if judaism was on trial"
but since Israel is the one responsible for alkl the killings, there are no generalizations here. everything done by Israeli soldiers in uniform is the responsibility of Israel (but not judaism)

same thing, if a muslim commits a crime, it's his responsibility, not that of Islam.