Prop 8 / Gay Marriage Ban

[ArtsyGirl]

Sonof2pac is one bad argument away from joining these guys:

 

[Flipmo]

I ain't arguing that one with you Sebastian, that's for sure.
I kinda see what he's trying to say, but he's not going at it in the best way.
He touches on mostly the importance of reproduction (at least that's what I see mostly revolved around his arguments), but instead of talking about it in a respectful manner, he's going at it like a redneck (no offense lol)

Edit: I have to head out to the store, I'll be back later. This is one of the more interesting threads... the best being the footy ones obviously. lol

 

[Duke]

What the hell is a "fag enabler", lmao. That cracked me up.

 

[Da_Funk]

Gay people are not denied the choice to reproduce either. There are plenty of gay people that have chosen the route of IVF et al because they have made that choice to reproduce. And there's nothing wrong with that either. So, if you also hold the belief (as many Christians in the West do) that a happy marriage is conducive to the welfare of a growing child, why deny that environment to a gay couple? It's not as if growing up in that environment will have any effect on the sexuality of that child. If you believe in the "sanctity of marriage" at all (which as Duke said, is all religious babble anyway), then how can that child grow up with any sense of that at all, if it can see that it's parents have been denied that right?

I'm 100% behind gay rights and marriage, though I think marriage is an outdated concept, but thats a whole nother thread.

I'd just like to comment on the bolded part. I really don't know that gay people having kids is necessarily the greatest idea. Not because of their sexual orientation, but because of the psychological and behavioural impact it'll have on the kid. I mean you could be the nicest, most loving parents in the world, but you can't replace a mother or a father in the parenting world.

 

[ArtsyGirl]

I'd just like to comment on the bolded part. I really don't know that gay people having kids is necessarily the greatest idea. Not because of their sexual orientation, but because of the psychological and behavioural impact it'll have on the kid. I mean you could be the nicest, most loving parents in the world, but you can't replace a mother or a father in the parenting world.

Children grow up in single parent families all the time, I agree that a child needs role models from both sex's but I don't think that role model has to come from a parent, having someone in the child's life who the kid can trust would be enough. I don't think its something you can use to block gay couples raising a child.

 

[_streethop101]

Lmao, gay parents would make gay kids? Is that the argument he is making now?

Then in that case...straight parents would make straight kids, therefore there would have never been a gay person to begin with. Start from scratch, bud.

 

[SonOf2pac]

Lmao, gay parents would make gay kids? Is that the argument he is making now?

Then in that case...straight parents would make straight kids, therefore there would have never been a gay person to begin with. Start from scratch, bud.

children raised by gay parents are more likely to be open to homosexual situations... yes.

if you believe homosexuality is the norm then that's your view... i can't change that...

let homos get conjoined!!! i dont give a fuck! but when you use the term marriage you are fucking up the integrity of man and woman... THATS ALL IM SAYING... hate if you must but i'm just trying to draw a line between norm and the situated... why can't you just understand that i'm trying to stick up for mankind??

homosexuality is FINE but when you turn into the norm then you've altered the course of humankind...

FUCK GOD... i don't give a fuck what he thinks... i'm just sticking up for whats right... science

 

[S O F I]

why can't you just understand that i'm trying to stick up for mankind??

lmao.


Try saying that out loud, please.

 

[ArtsyGirl]

children raised by gay parents are more likely to be open to homosexual situations... yes.

Are you saying there's something wrong with that? (just wondering)

let homos get conjoined!!! i dont give a fuck! but when you use the term marriage you are fucking up the integrity of man and woman... THATS ALL IM SAYING... hate if you must but i'm just trying to draw a line between norm and the situated... why can't you just understand that i'm trying to stick up for mankind??

Conjoined is ok, but not in matrimony?
How is two >>people<< who love each other and want to have that one day to pledge their love for one another fucking up anyone else? It doesn't impact man and woman, I didn't feel violated when Ellen & her girlfriend (or anyone else) married, did you?
Mankind has bigger problems than same sex marriages.

homosexuality is FINE but when you turn into the norm then you've altered the course of humankind...

FUCK GOD... i don't give a fuck what he thinks... i'm just sticking up for whats right... science

Homosexuality has existed since forever, so humankind has been altered and I'm pretty sure the world won't explode because of a legal marriage.

 

[SonOf2pac]

^when it gets out of hand and it becomes the norm, then yes, it will alter mankind...

"Mankind has bigger problems than same sex marriages."

100% agree... but what is this thread about?

"I didn't feel violated when Ellen & her girlfriend (or anyone else) married, did you?"

no... but there's power in numbers...

"Are you saying there's something wrong with that? (just wondering)"

if you don't see what's wrong with that then you obviously have been conditioned to believe homosexuality is normal and the average thing to do... thats ok

"Try saying that out loud, please."

lol... i had a couple beers in me... too dramatic? i think so. haha

 

[Casey]

I'd just like to comment on the bolded part. I really don't know that gay people having kids is necessarily the greatest idea. Not because of their sexual orientation, but because of the psychological and behavioural impact it'll have on the kid. I mean you could be the nicest, most loving parents in the world, but you can't replace a mother or a father in the parenting world.

If anything it would make the kids better people by being more open minded.

I know a lesbian couple that have kids. I think it was done through IVF. Anyway, the kids are grown now and one of them is a multi-millionaire businessman and they are both friendly, likeable, well-rounded people. And are both straight, for the record.

They are certainly well-rounded and less fucked up than I am, as a result of growing up in a "broken" home. (mom died, dad worked all the time so I was shifted between various family members households like a latchkey kid).

 

[ill-matic]

im pretty indifferent to gay marriage. but when it comes to children... i don't know. i guess i'm somewhat apprehensive. i just don't believe that a same sex couple will be able to provide the same balance offered by a heterosexual couple. it's too much of a disruption to the standard family dynamic. it's not natural.

 

[_carmi]

children raised by gay parents are more likely to be open to homosexual situations... yes.

if you believe homosexuality is the norm then that's your view... i can't change that...

let homos get conjoined!!! i dont give a fuck! but when you use the term marriage you are fucking up the integrity of man and woman... THATS ALL IM SAYING... hate if you must but i'm just trying to draw a line between norm and the situated... why can't you just understand that i'm trying to stick up for mankind??

homosexuality is FINE but when you turn into the norm then you've altered the course of humankind...

FUCK GOD... i don't give a fuck what he thinks... i'm just sticking up for whats right... science

you do realize homosexuality has ALWAYS existed. it's not altering mankind. if it is, i guess trying to make women equal to men is altering mankind as well. giving equal rights to the black men and women is altering mankind as well.

if you look in history, there were always revolutions that lead to norms being changed. our world is in constant evolution. mankind evolves all the time. our history proves it.

i can understand that you believe in something and i can respect that to the extent that you can defend your position and bring argue in an intelligent way. but you are not doing so.

 

[Flipmo]

Homosexuality has always existed.

It was actually a lot more accepted before. In ancient Greece for example, most men had a male lover, it was considered more prestigious to make love to a man than a woman back then. The idea was that men were superior to women, so it was well viewed.

Kinda crazy if you ask me, cause women are heaven on earth, but those were the days.

 

[Duke]

Touching on the "family dynamics", a lot of straight couples/parents do things that fuck up the family dynamics just as bad. Should we not allow them to have kids? Substance abusing parents for example. Deny them kids? Or temperamentfull people? Or really stupid people? Should they be allowed to have kids?

Base line is that, besides the sexual preference, gays and lesbians are every bit the same person as "the rest of us", and there is no actual valid logical argument one can use to "deny" those same-sex couples having or adopting children.

 

[ArtsyGirl]

^when it gets out of hand and it becomes the norm, then yes, it will alter mankind...

"Mankind has bigger problems than same sex marriages."

100% agree... but what is this thread about?

"I didn't feel violated when Ellen & her girlfriend (or anyone else) married, did you?"

no... but there's power in numbers...

"Are you saying there's something wrong with that? (just wondering)"

if you don't see what's wrong with that then you obviously have been conditioned to believe homosexuality is normal and the average thing to do... thats ok

Out of hand? As carmi said homosexuality is nothing new, taking Religion out of marriage just means its two people committing themselves to each other.

The thread is about gay marriages, but you were the one that brought up mankind like it had an involvement in this thread.

So because I don't see something wrong with it means I was conditioned that way? My parents were extra religious when I was growing up, I couldn't listen to certian music.. So no it wasn't my upbringing that said "Gay people are O-kay!" but probably has something to do with how I consider someone's soul before their sexual orientation, it's a shame you obviously didn't get that teaching.

 

[SonOf2pac]

Out of hand? As carmi said homosexuality is nothing new, taking Religion out of marriage just means its two people committing themselves to each other.

The thread is about gay marriages, but you were the one that brought up mankind like it had an involvement in this thread.

it's still a problem mankind has to deal with but like you said... there are bigger problems that should be brought to issue first... but this is the topic at hand... no need to discuss war or religion controlling politics...

So because I don't see something wrong with it means I was conditioned that way? My parents were extra religious when I was growing up, I couldn't listen to certian music.. So no it wasn't my upbringing that said "Gay people are O-kay!" but probably has something to do with how I consider someone's soul before their sexual orientation, it's a shame you obviously didn't get that teaching.

it's a shame that you are not comprehending that i have nothing against homosexuals individually... i don't judge people on their sexual orientation, either unless they're trying to rub off on me... i've known tons of gays... i worked with one who was a total asshole and have a friend who wishes me a happy bday every year because we have the same bday... although, she's more like bi... :wondering:

 

[Duke]

Since this forum's intellectuals are generally quite liberal/leftish, I want to make sure we understand properly where you're coming from:

So you have nothing against gays. Alright.

You have something against gays marrying under the exact same principle that marriage is understood by today.

Why? You say you're not religious, so the religious argument doesn't fly. Fair enough.

Then why are you so persistent on the "marriage = man and woman" argument? If you're not religious, it must have a logical foundation. Then, I ask, you should be able to see and accept that the more traditional definition of marriage already doesn't really apply anymore in today's (western) society.

So where does the "sanctity" of marriage feeling comes from?
If it's not religiously founded, and I, in devil's advocate mode, can't think of any "logical" argument you could throw against me, it can only be a emotional argument.

So if that's the case, is it just a gut feeling? Do you just "feel" it's wrong? Unterbauchgefuhl?

 

[S O F I]

^He's just regurgitating what the religious right has been spewing on TV and in the newspapers.

The phrases "same-sex marriage will destroy the sanctity of marriage" and "same-sex marriage will destroy the integrity of marriage" stem from the religious right.

But, like you said, I'm curious too. If it doesn't stem from religion (even though he's saying what the religious right is saying) then where does it stem from?

But I have no idea where "same-sex marriage will destroy mankind" stems from.

 

[Casey]

Since this forum's intellectuals are generally quite liberal/leftish, I want to make sure we understand properly where you're coming from:

So you have nothing against gays. Alright.

You have something against gays marrying under the exact same principle that marriage is understood by today.

Why? You say you're not religious, so the religious argument doesn't fly. Fair enough.

Then why are you so persistent on the "marriage = man and woman" argument? If you're not religious, it must have a logical foundation. Then, I ask, you should be able to see and accept that the more traditional definition of marriage already doesn't really apply anymore in today's (western) society.

So where does the "sanctity" of marriage feeling comes from?
If it's not religiously founded, and I, in devil's advocate mode, can't think of any "logical" argument you could throw against me, it can only be a emotional argument.

So if that's the case, is it just a gut feeling? Do you just "feel" it's wrong? Unterbauchgefuhl?

I would guess that even though he claims to not be religious now, he was probably raised in a Christian environment and hasn't yet shaken off the religious brainwashing and been able to wake up and smell the coffee and see things for how they really are.

It is very tough for most people to be able to dismiss the environments and that they were forced into from birth and grew up in. Most people do not question anything. It's why we live in world full of stupidity. Not because people don't have the capacity to learn, but because most of them just accept what they are told.

I guess this was understandable in the pre-Internet days. But now, when you have the entire capacity of gathered human research and knowledge available at the touch of a button, there is no excuse for anybody to be religious and if you are religious you are basically turning your nose up at and ignoring the knowledge of thousands and thousands of very intelligent people.

I am sick to the back teeth of religious hogwash and it is undeniably responsible for brainwashing and attempting to maintain control over others, as well as countless wars, suffering and death. It's like, why did they build churches, temples and cathedrals so tall? It was a deliberate effort to make people feel small and insignificant in order to promote their own agenda. Marx hit the nail on the head when he said "Religion is the opiate of the people".

I'm getting off topic here but to bring it back, it's these same religious folks that created these bullshit "morals" that are preventing people from their basic human rights. And even though SonOf2pac claims to be not be religious, his opinions on this matter have clearly been learnt from either someone religious, or someone that learned them from someone religious and never questioned it.

If he comes in here now and says he has never been exposed to any religious dogma by any parent, teacher, priest, parental/authorative figure, and has been an Atheist his entire life, has never been to Church/Temple/Place of Religious Worship/etc, has never sung a hymn, religious song, or recited the Lords Prayer, etc etc etc etc, I would be very surprised. But that is clearly not the case. He may not be practicing religion right now, but I would go as far as to put money on it, that he was raised in a Christian environment.