This really just proves my point about American Education.

[masta247]

the whole concept of which nation or culture works harder is dumb. it falls victim to too many stereotypes and too many biases therefore I think arguing which nation works harder is like that joke about winning the special olympics. But since that's where the thread was going, I thought I'd introduce some quantifiable metrics.

That thing started with Funk's statement. I came up with personal observations, you came up with numbers that measure the results per hour worked which is how much money one can generate in the shortest time. I think that observations are more convincing (at least to me, I know what I see) but there's no measurable way which I could use to convince you. I think that the amount of hours worked indicate how serious you are about your work more than PPP though. But I couldn't convince you because there are no studies claiming that there's bigger connection between these two.

The problem started when Funk said that Americans work the most (time) and he himself pointed that out. In my second huge post I presented arguments (and data) that disproved that.

It's funny you say that, North Americans work harder (i.e. more) than anywhere else in the world.
See what I started with a single sentence?

I just gotti'd you guys. I'm so cool.

my argument is that hard work is difficult to quantify but that productivity levels are one way of quantifying it. the methods in doing so come with their disadvantages but it's usually as good as it gets.

Because it's hard to quantify I disagree with your argument using PPP to claim that Americans work harder, because productivity=! the amount of work invested.
The amount of hours worked and hard work also aren't equal but again they are a measure not worse than PPP.
Cultures where you work more aren't necessirely known for focusing on achieving results in the shortest time so their productivity results are the lowest, obviously - even if they work hard all that time.

1. "The survey research that has been performed does indicate that workers in lean production transplants in North America report that they believe that they work substantially harder than workers in traditional manufacturing plants (and, their managers agree with this assessment) [36]."
2. "The results of Japanese studies that have examined the association between job strain and adverse health outcomes are mixed and rather inconclusive [41-43]"

it's questionable how that article you quoted helps your cause.

These 2 paragraphs are pretty meaningless here, but the article shared some light on the issue, in my opinion.

it's a study conducted by the japanese for the japanese. one could probably dig up similar surveys for the US too.

It's not only for the Japanese. It's about the Japanese work ethics - proving that it's very rough. If you can dig up similar surveys about the US that conclude bigger job-related pressure and workload that would be useful for comparison.

working long hours doesn't definitively mean working hard. but it's certainly one measure that should be used in making the argument. i don't disagree there.:

While I don't think it means the same thing too, it's as good if not a better measure than PPP, and it disproves what Da Funk originally argued though - that Americans work the most hours and what my argument was primarily against.
I had a feeling that you were somewhat defending what Funk said by posting your data claiming that American productivity is so high.

"Why do Japanese people work so hard, so long? Do Japanese like to work? Is it a tradition? Should we improve the present situation? Here, I'd like to write about the reason for that, not from the economic point of view, but just from my own experiences and observations in my everyday life."

yeah, fuck your observations yoshi.

Do you know white people in the US are just as likely to deal drugs as black people? Do you know that there's more drug dealing done in closed spaces that out in the street? How would you argue this without hard numbers? What observations would lead you to think that? Think about all the ways your world views have been affected by imagery in media and people around you. I am not saying the widely-held belief that Asians work harder is a myth. I am saying the notion has been perpetuated for decades and I'm not sure I buy into it as much as you and Pittsey.

And Flipmo. I didn't know but I had no strong opinions on these issues.
The internet is full of these observations too. If you observe how the Japanese people work you might also come up with similar conclusions yourself, even though you don't have any data. That's what convinced me but it's not enough to make me convince you, but showing you other peoples' opinions might make you more eager to accept that it might be true after all.

i have an OK understanding of japanese business culture. as in, enough that i don't care to learn more. i've come across it several times from project management classes and lean six sigma to international business classes that teach about cultural factors. i'm not a big fan of the culture. i think men have too much power and every job seems to be a job for life (although that's been changing recently). I wonder how depressed they are. also, censored porn? really, WHAT'S THE FUCKING POINT. but i digress.

Lean Six Sigma is basically American, with slight Japanese touch. I'm fairly sure that you were educated to do business American way.
I've studied International Business classes here and in Canada, too. They always said that the Japanese are hard workers and never gave any data to back that up. Do you think that they're all just repeating the stereotype? I think it's more about observations too.

I even had classes about stereotypes vs generalizations in Canada - there was that professor from Seattle there and even he said that "'Asians work till they die' is a stereotype but 'The Asian culture/ most Asians are hard workers, and some of them work so hard that they die' is a generalization based on facts and it's very useful at managing an intercultural team, because you can tell that people from Asia are more likely to work harder and be more focused on their job"
Could they back it up with data? I know for a fact that they didn't and judging by my internet research there's no way to do it. A lot of people are convinced that it's true, not without a reason. It's mainly based on their observations.

It is not counterintuitive. It is just that if you can't translate hard work to numbers, it's hard to have strong evidence. You have to standardize data and measurements across cultures to make cross-cultural comparisons otherwise you're comparing apples and oranges.

And right at this point I believe that there's no valid methodology that could measure how hard one works that could help us convince each other. Do valid results mean that you put more energy into your work or the time you spend working on them? Does it take working for unmeasurable results into account?

That's not really true. Even the article you quoted (Stippy) alludes to the similarities in the work ethos between the Japanese and the Americans. Check out Max Weber's The Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism.

I'm familiar with Weber's books but I don't remember him saying much about the Japanese. His works were more about the European capitalism.

No, they could not. Do you know how Japan lends money to the US? Do you know how markets work?

"I have an ok understanding of that". I know that you owe them money worth a bunch of your islands. You argue that they couldn't get them unless you went bankrupt and then they'd be fucked too I suppose. The fact remains that you owe them money.

Jumping to conclusions that you're fascinated with Japanese culture is like saying I'd be jumping to conclusions to say Rahim likes Tupac. I've read enough of your posts through the years.

I'm not fascinated. I like it. I like their culture (many aspect of it) and a lot of their management ideas and they deserve credit here, rightfully.
I used to be fascinated when I was studying Japanese, doing Japanese martial arts and loved reading about their culture. I grew out of that but some sentiment remains. I'm fascinated with their quality models and how they placed it on the business map, and their mentality (some aspects) though.

Read up on the Lost Decade(s).

I'm very familiar with that concept. I find it scary that you judge everything by the economic situation and numbers there. I hate it that the Japanese companies began seeing things that way, and their products that way.
I understand that you have to turn profit but it sucks when you begin to base all your decisions only on numbers.
It's easy to screw up your economy despite having the world's most awesome companies and top notch management, and people working 24/7 on creating the coolest things that can earn you money.
It's pretty crazy to read that you're surprised how someone might be fascinated with a country struggling with their economy (though Japan is still on the stronger side here). I can't think of a situation where I would admire a country for having the strongest economy and stop when it begins to fail. Should I feel hatred or indifference towards the US whenever I hear that their economy takes a hit?

 

[Pittsey]

Can you 2 get a room?

 

[dilla]

Masta puts sweatshop workers to shame, in terms of weekly work hours, with these responses.

 

[S O F I]

Masta should definitely get paid for his android posts.
I say he gets a participation award here. more after work.

 

[Flipmo]

And Flipmo. I didn't know but I had no strong opinions on these issues.
The internet is full of these observations too. If you observe how the Japanese people work you might also come up with similar conclusions yourself, even though you don't have any data. That's what convinced me but it's not enough to make me convince you, but showing you other peoples' opinions might make you more eager to accept that it might be true after all.

What "And Flipmo" ? - This is Sofi and your circle jerk. Call me when you're willing to give me a reach-around, then we'll chat.

 

[S O F I]

That thing started with Funk's statement. I came up with personal observations, you came up with numbers that measure the results per hour worked which is how much money one can generate in the shortest time. I think that observations are more convincing (at least to me, I know what I see) but there's no measurable way which I could use to convince you. I think that the amount of hours worked indicate how serious you are about your work more than PPP though. But I couldn't convince you because there are no studies claiming that there's bigger connection between these two.

I don't want to drag this on as we've bored others and ourselves but you have to admit our observations are extremely limited. Calculating hours worked comes with its own set of complications. If you don't know how much value was created and how efficiently in a span of time, how can you say the work was performed adequately and with difficulty?

Cultures where you work more aren't necessarily known for focusing on achieving results in the shortest time so their productivity results are the lowest, obviously - even if they work hard all that time.

If I spent 6 hours working and created $12 dollars worth of product and you spent 8 hours working and created $16 worth of product, by the measure I introduced, it'd be the same and rightfully so. Since I worked harder, I should have created more value. But you're saying I could have worked hard and longer but not have created more value. That means the work was inefficient which means it was lazy. Of course, that makes the assumption same technology is used but in the case of the US and Japan, that's a safe one to make.

So your statement implies a contradiction.

Lean Six Sigma is basically American, with slight Japanese touch. I'm fairly sure that you were educated to do business American way.
I've studied International Business classes here and in Canada, too. They always said that the Japanese are hard workers and never gave any data to back that up. Do you think that they're all just repeating the stereotype? I think it's more about observations too.

I even had classes about stereotypes vs generalizations in Canada - there was that professor from Seattle there and even he said that "'Asians work till they die' is a stereotype but 'The Asian culture/ most Asians are hard workers, and some of them work so hard that they die' is a generalization based on facts and it's very useful at managing an intercultural team, because you can tell that people from Asia are more likely to work harder and be more focused on their job"
Could they back it up with data? I know for a fact that they didn't and judging by my internet research there's no way to do it. A lot of people are convinced that it's true, not without a reason. It's mainly based on their observations.

I think it comes down to industries. In some industries, there's more work done and more efficiently. Perhaps Japanese work really hard in manufacturing and poorly in agriculture and retail services. When we say Asians work hard, we generally have a picture of manufacturing consumer goods. You don't get a picture of a bus driver or an advertising copywriter. That's the problem with observations.

And right at this point I believe that there's no valid methodology that could measure how hard one works that could help us convince each other. Do valid results mean that you put more energy into your work or the time you spend working on them? Does it take working for unmeasurable results into account?

Few men have changed world views based on evidence presented by others haha. But in this case, the issue with the way you've presented it is that unless you're deemed an expert like for example a person who has traveled a lot and worked in different countries and studied the differences, your observations aren't worth shit. If your wikipedia page doesn't say "expert on japanese labor" written by someone else, your observations don't mean shit. I'm not saying to ME, I'm saying to the general public. But with me, I don't have to step my foot in Japan and can use OECD numbers to build my case. That's the thing.

I'm familiar with Weber's books but I don't remember him saying much about the Japanese. His works were more about the European capitalism.

I didn't mean to say he talks about the Japanese. I mean to say that he posits that Americans work for the sake of work. He presented the idea of a "calling" to work. Hence the Protestant Work Ethic in the title.

"I have an ok understanding of that". I know that you owe them money worth a bunch of your islands. You argue that they couldn't get them unless you went bankrupt and then they'd be fucked too I suppose. The fact remains that you owe them money.

I'm saying they don't have a legal claim to the islands lol regardless if we choose to honor the bonds they bought or not. But yes, the fact remains.

 

[ARon]

I want to read all this but I can't, that ADHD crazy, like whoaaawhoaaaaawhoaa

 

[masta247]

I don't want to drag this on as we've bored others and ourselves but you have to admit our observations are extremely limited.

I agree with the first part and to some extent with the latter part. I haven't been to the Chinese plants or Japanese banks so in this matter yes. The Japanese work ethics and management models have been interesting to me though, I was always curious and collected a lot of observations. It's not convincing because it's just what I think, I know.
Do you know that the Japanese tend to base a lot of things on observations and unquantifiable variables though, as opposed to Americans? Look up Kansei Engineering, or even their original approach to Kaizen which Americans tend to "use", but not necessirely think of it like the Japanese do.

Calculating hours worked comes with its own set of complications. If you don't know how much value was created and how efficiently in a span of time, how can you say the work was performed adequately and with difficulty?

And hours worked is not a perfect measure neighter but again like I said, to me it's not any worse than productivity. I'll explain after the next quote though.

If I spent 6 hours working and created $12 dollars worth of product and you spent 8 hours working and created $16 worth of product, by the measure I introduced, it'd be the same and rightfully so. Since I worked harder, I should have created more value. But you're saying I could have worked hard and longer but not have created more value. That means the work was inefficient which means it was lazy. Of course, that makes the assumption same technology is used but in the case of the US and Japan, that's a safe one to make.

So your statement implies a contradiction.

No, because your statement implies that hard work = productivity. The most obvious point would be that the person B works harder EACH DAY because he generates 4 dollars more AND works 2 hours more at the same time. He'd most probably be more tired of work than person A. If both of them keep on working like that for the rest of their lives in the end person B will have done more (harder) work than person A, despite of what productivity statistics say.
And that's considering that all other variables are the same - that both people work for the same company, on equally (potentially) priced goods (or any results that translate to money at all) for the same market.

I think it comes down to industries. In some industries, there's more work done and more efficiently. Perhaps Japanese work really hard in manufacturing and poorly in agriculture and retail services. When we say Asians work hard, we generally have a picture of manufacturing consumer goods. You don't get a picture of a bus driver or an advertising copywriter. That's the problem with observations.

Of course, observations don't come without their own problems.
But I don't think that they do poorly in agriculture and retail services. At least I have no reason to suspect that it's the case. What I know is that they also work long hours in those industries.

Few men have changed world views based on evidence presented by others haha.

It's more likely that you'd believe that a certain fruit is good if you hear someone say that "this fruit is awesome" than if you were presented with data. There are certain situations where data is everything if it's exactly on point - for example building a space shuttle. To me it depends on the situation but in real life usually it's easier to convince others with your own opinions than data. It's a two-edged sword though.
But I wouldn't want to get paranoid and believe only in things that I have spot-on data for.

I didn't mean to say he talks about the Japanese. I mean to say that he posits that Americans work for the sake of work. He presented the idea of a "calling" to work. Hence the Protestant Work Ethic in the title.

Personally I think that while Americans can work for the sake of work too the Japanese work for the sake of what they think that others might expect of them. Their focus is elsewhere even if they work for the same thing. Their motivation and mentality and perspective is different.
I think Weber was more about Europe in that book. On the whole though I believe that sometimes your arguments are what I could picture reading coming from him, yes.

 

[Preach]

Can we drop the "Preach essays" thing now then? I've long ago been surpassed.

 

[Chronic]

Can we drop the "Preach essays" thing now then? I've long ago been surpassed.

Too long, didn't read