This really just proves my point about American Education.

In the 60s/70s when Britain first rolled out it's electrical infrastructure to provide every home in the country with electricity the popular thought was that electricity would revolutionise the way we lived and that our generation would be working 20 hour weeks. But they probably didn't foresee the current economics. Who would believe that you'd have a private company making up numbers and then lending those numbers to the government for profit. It sounds ridiculous.
 
These graphs are irrelevant, they barely show how much money these people make for the time that they work. You can't really compare the amount of money Americans vs the Chinese (per capita) make, can you? Do you really believe that it shows how much work a person does? I mean, I'm surprised that you've just used that as your argument. It's not that companies build their factories in countries like China, Thailand or even Poland or Slovakia for no reason. It's because people work more BUT the labor cost is lower. Isn't this obvious?

"GDP per hour worked, current prices, USD"

That suggests the data is adjusted for purchasing power parity. That fact renders your paragraph above irrelevant.

Outsourcing is done for various reasons but obviously labor costs have the most consideration. Companies don't make outsourcing decisions based on belief which people work harder (too subjective, hard to measure) but which people work cheaper (easy to measure), among many other criteria. If Boeing outsourced some supply chain operations to Japan and I'm most positive they did, I doubt Japanese Collectivism was a unit of measure on the Excel spreadsheets.

The difference between my argument and yours:

1. ME - this is the data collected by OECD (Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development)
2. YOU - I know this Chinese girl

Also I don't want to sound like an asshole but my university thesis on one of my majors is about the differences between Japan and the western world concerning project management in those countries. The Japanese simply work much harder. It's in their culture.

Well, I hope your thesis isn't the sum of your observations. But I'd be interested to know how you're making your argument and the methodology you're using to gather your evidence.

The thing is, I'm not willing to dispute that there isn't a Chinese kid in some sweatshop working harder to produce Nike shoes than an American woman making American Apparel clothes in the US. I'm just simply saying that making that assumption to make a large point such as productivity is a weak argument to make. It's also very surprising to see that coming from such an analytical, numbers-oriented person.
 
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As far as Japan goes, I thought the fascination stopped at the end of the 80s. The Japanese economy has stagnated for like the last 20 years. Their public debt is at like 200% of GDP. If their people weren't saving every penny they made, they'd be so fucked.
 
Yeah, most of Japan's debt is domestic. They're better off than say the USA, which half the world owns at the moment (including our friends the Japanese at more than $800 Bil)

Quote me if I'm wrong, but that's at least that's what I've understood from all this economic mess.
 
Yeah, most of Japan's debt is domestic. They're better off than say the USA, which half the world owns at the moment (including our friends the Japanese at more than $800 Bil)

Quote me if I'm wrong, but that's at least that's what I've understood from all this economic mess.

Which is why the petroleum dollar is worth invading The Middle East for.
 
Outsourcing is done for various reasons but obviously labor costs have the most consideration. Companies don't make outsourcing decisions based on belief which people work harder (too subjective, hard to measure) but which people work cheaper (easy to measure), among many other criteria. If Boeing outsourced some supply chain operations to Japan and I'm most positive they did, I doubt Japanese Collectivism was a unit of measure on the Excel spreadsheets.

People outsource where they can get more for their money. It's much more complex than getting more done in quantity but also where they can get better quality, where they can get it done faster (research, production) etc.

1. ME - this is the data collected by OECD (Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development)
2. YOU - I know this Chinese girl

I'm surprised that you're always so quick to make assumptions. Coming from finance major I'm suprised that you're coming with data that is worth as much as myspace tips as far as "hard work" is concerned. Economics go far beyond "hard work". These are barely numbers that represent local regulations, infrastructure, education, culture and social background (money making skills), migration of skilled workers, existing companies and their wellbeing etc more than hard work alone. Americans don't sell their movies, music, video games because people making them work harder than the Chinese manufacturing the shoes you wear while recording them, yet your arguments would lead us to those strange conclusions.
I understand that Americans translate work to money and numbers, but to find out who works the hardest you'd need sociological observations. Other cultures might judge their work by totally different standards and focus on different priorities. You can't place an American-eque "Excel guy" to count how hard a Chinese guy works at filling his forms or a Korean doctor curing patients with what she has (American drugs and equipment are more expensive and often unavailable, so you can really forget about purchasing power parity numbers ). So to answer that you have to see how people work and look at their culture and analyze how serious they are about long AND hard work. Since you wanted more than my word:
http://www.workhealth.org/whatsnew/lpkarosh.html
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jan2009/gb2009015_807968_page_2.htm
http://c-pc8.civil.musashi-tech.ac.jp/RC/doc/04.htm
http://www.stippy.com/japan-work/why-do-the-japanese-work-so-hard/

I'm not sure if you've picked ex-Sony CEO's book "Doing it our way" and compared it to the likes of Steve Jobs where they mention how they work, and how they make their employees work. That Sony book will help you understand the Japanese business culture.
http://www.amazon.com/Doing-It-Our-Way-Memoir/dp/4924971251

Now as a response to your data alone (aside from the fact that they're irrelevant) they're short term and not detailed (at the very least services vs production; public vs private sector; not even listing results more accurate than averages) and this is only one source alone.
The thing is, I'm not willing to dispute that there isn't a Chinese kid in some sweatshop working harder to produce Nike shoes than an American woman making American Apparel clothes in the US. I'm just simply saying that making that assumption to make a large point such as productivity is a weak argument to make. It's also very surprising to see that coming from such an analytical, numbers-oriented person.

See, it's impossible to translate hard work to numbers, which might be counterintuitive to an American I guess? You guys are raised and educated to earn money and it's your goal. It's not like that in the Asian culture. They work because they're expected to work and they want to exceed those expectations. I would use numbers whenever they make sense.
I could say that Asians study more and since their IQ is way higher than in any other region of the world the chances of them being better qualified workers and earning more money is higher. I could back that up with data like this:
http://books.google.pl/books?id=Xn8OVNDC1_EC&pg=PA388&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_dj7hueuj-U0/TFW3t9Z7y5I/AAAAAAAABos/hLAlNiWOyyI/s400/IQ Score Distribution.png
but frankly, that doesn't make them more capable of making money, yet it is a good sign that they might work more/harder. These numbers wouldn't correspond to real life gains because the culture is different.

As far as Japan goes, I thought the fascination stopped at the end of the 80s. The Japanese economy has stagnated for like the last 20 years. Their public debt is at like 200% of GDP. If their people weren't saving every penny they made, they'd be so fucked.

Japan could get a fair amount of your lands if they wanted their money back.
Their economy took a huge hit, that came a few years ago, I agree. It came from your economy collapsing, the Korean and Chinese economies taking over, some internal issues and perhaps some lack of inspiration and that strange trend of leaving their good old ways behind, doing things too much like Americans and losing their edge coming from the Japanese way of doing American business.

Why should it stop fascination though? (jumping to conclusions that I'm fascinated with their businesses btw.)
If it wasn't for the Japanese business model back in the 70s, 80s and 90s you wouldn't have some of the most important tools that helped your businesses making money. Of course it worked the other way around too. When the Japanese and American business models combined it resulted in a huge synergy.

I have a hard time dealing with Masta247's bullshit but I read your post and am assuming you dealt with it adequately. Good job, sir.

I have a hard time dealing with your comments. Not really, but you shouldn't speak like an asshole when your opinion differs.
 
Kids are expensive. I suppose it depends on what you mean by "survival". I think I could survive earning 2k/month there, I think an average low-level worker from Poland would be happier with a 1k/month salary there than what they make here.
Here the minimum wage is about 300$ for a full time job. Prices there are a bit higher, according to most reserch life costs are about 70-100% higher there.
I've met people working for minimum wages there and honestly that's a totally different type of "survival". The survival for a miminum wage here doesn't look too good. Most people in Canada are poor because they don't want to work. We have people unable to paoy rent for a total shithole doing a full time job as a nurse or public administration, which pay a little more than the miminum wage.



Personally I have never had bad opinions about Canada and the US. I do see the cultural differences though and I think generalizations carry some merit. Stereotypes like "Americans are stupid" - I don't agree with.

Not sure why I'm replying. I usually just wait for sofi to come in so I can 2nd what he says. You said you could survive on minimum wage here more easily. But you listed 1k as the salary "low-level" workers would be happy to make...except that's not even close to minimum wage. That's about $11/hr. Minimum wage is more like $600-$700/month which is below the federal poverty guidelines for a single person. Poverty is not my idea of survival for anyone.
 
People outsource where they can get more for their money. It's much more complex than getting more done in quantity but also where they can get better quality, where they can get it done faster (research, production) etc.

yes, i believe that falls under "more criteria" I mentioned several times.

I'm surprised that you're always so quick to make assumptions. Coming from finance major I'm suprised that you're coming with data that is worth as much as myspace tips as far as "hard work" is concerned. Economics go far beyond "hard work".

the whole concept of which nation or culture works harder is dumb. it falls victim to too many stereotypes and too many biases therefore I think arguing which nation works harder is like that joke about winning the special olympics. But since that's where the thread was going, I thought I'd introduce some quantifiable metrics.

These are barely numbers that represent local regulations, infrastructure, education, culture and social background (money making skills), migration of skilled workers, existing companies and their wellbeing etc more than hard work alone. Americans don't sell their movies, music, video games because people making them work harder than the Chinese manufacturing the shoes you wear while recording them, yet your arguments would lead us to those strange conclusions.

my argument is that hard work is difficult to quantify but that productivity levels are one way of quantifying it. the methods in doing so come with their disadvantages but it's usually as good as it gets.

I understand that Americans translate work to money and numbers, but to find out who works the hardest you'd need sociological observations. Other cultures might judge their work by totally different standards and focus on different priorities. You can't place an American-eque "Excel guy" to count how hard a Chinese guy works at filling his forms or a Korean doctor curing patients with what she has (American drugs and equipment are more expensive and often unavailable, so you can really forget about purchasing power parity numbers ). So to answer that you have to see how people work and look at their culture and analyze how serious they are about long AND hard work.

you are right that cultures might judge their work by different standards hence why cross-cultural comparisons are tough. but the only way to make sense of them is to judge them all by the same standard. hence the PPP used in quantifying productivity.


1. "The survey research that has been performed does indicate that workers in lean production transplants in North America report that they believe that they work substantially harder than workers in traditional manufacturing plants (and, their managers agree with this assessment) [36]."
2. "The results of Japanese studies that have examined the association between job strain and adverse health outcomes are mixed and rather inconclusive [41-43]"

it's questionable how that article you quoted helps your cause.


it's a study conducted by the japanese for the japanese. one could probably dig up similar surveys for the US too.


working long hours doesn't definitively mean working hard. but it's certainly one measure that should be used in making the argument. i don't disagree there. also, I stopped at:

"Why do Japanese people work so hard, so long? Do Japanese like to work? Is it a tradition? Should we improve the present situation? Here, I'd like to write about the reason for that, not from the economic point of view, but just from my own experiences and observations in my everyday life."

yeah, fuck your observations yoshi.


I'm not sure if you've picked ex-Sony CEO's book "Doing it our way" and compared it to the likes of Steve Jobs where they mention how they work, and how they make their employees work. That Sony book will help you understand the Japanese business culture.

i have an OK understanding of japanese business culture. as in, enough that i don't care to learn more. i've come across it several times from project management classes and lean six sigma to international business classes that teach about cultural factors. i'm not a big fan of the culture. i think men have too much power and every job seems to be a job for life (although that's been changing recently). I wonder how depressed they are. also, censored porn? really, WHAT'S THE FUCKING POINT. but i digress.

Now as a response to your data alone (aside from the fact that they're irrelevant) they're short term and not detailed (at the very least services vs production; public vs private sector; not even listing results more accurate than averages) and this is only one source alone.

i can't emphasize this enough for you. the data is as relevant as it gets. it doesn't span decades, of course. but i'm sure there are datasets out there that do and perhaps by the OECD, it's just that the layman doesn't have access to it. i was just using it to illustrate a point. services and production are taken into consideration in GDP numbers. public and private sectors are in the GDP components. this is the OECD. the source is as good as it gets aside from perhaps the UN, Eurostat, The World Bank, etc but I'm not too familiar with everything they take into account.

See, it's impossible to translate hard work to numbers, which might be counterintuitive to an American I guess?

It is not counterintuitive. It is just that if you can't translate hard work to numbers, it's hard to have strong evidence. You have to standardize data and measurements across cultures to make cross-cultural comparisons otherwise you're comparing apples and oranges.

Do you know white people in the US are just as likely to deal drugs as black people? Do you know that there's more drug dealing done in closed spaces that out in the street? How would you argue this without hard numbers? What observations would lead you to think that? Think about all the ways your world views have been affected by imagery in media and people around you. I am not saying the widely-held belief that Asians work harder is a myth. I am saying the notion has been perpetuated for decades and I'm not sure I buy into it as much as you and Pittsey.

You guys are raised and educated to earn money and it's your goal. It's not like that in the Asian culture. They work because they're expected to work and they want to exceed those expectations. I would use numbers whenever they make sense.

That's not really true. Even the article you quoted (Stippy) alludes to the similarities in the work ethos between the Japanese and the Americans. Check out Max Weber's The Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism.

I could say that Asians study more and since their IQ is way higher than in any other region of the world the chances of them being better qualified workers and earning more money is higher. I could back that up with data like this:
http://books.google.pl/books?id=Xn8OVNDC1_EC&pg=PA388&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_dj7hueuj-U0/TFW3t9Z7y5I/AAAAAAAABos/hLAlNiWOyyI/s400/IQ Score Distribution.png
but frankly, that doesn't make them more capable of making money, yet it is a good sign that they might work more/harder. These numbers wouldn't correspond to real life gains because the culture is different.

I think that'd be a weak argument to say that they might work harder.

Japan could get a fair amount of your lands if they wanted their money back.

No, they could not. Do you know how Japan lends money to the US? Do you know how markets work?

Their economy took a huge hit, that came a few years ago, I agree. It came from your economy collapsing, the Korean and Chinese economies taking over, some internal issues and perhaps some lack of inspiration and that strange trend of leaving their good old ways behind, doing things too much like Americans and losing their edge coming from the Japanese way of doing American business.

Read up on the Lost Decade(s).

Why should it stop fascination though? (jumping to conclusions that I'm fascinated with their businesses btw.)

Jumping to conclusions that you're fascinated with Japanese culture is like saying I'd be jumping to conclusions to say Rahim likes Tupac. I've read enough of your posts through the years.
 
You should watch the American Dad episode from a few weeks back where Stan and Francine make a bet that they could live off of minimum wage for a month.

Didn't work out too well.
 
Mere hours away from maybe failing my third final this semester, I just unearthed this gem I hadn't listened to in a while.

 

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