Then his government issued Sonic Deadline neck collar will explode when he crossed the line into Manchester (a-la Running Man)
So..... Muhammad was a pedofile
- Thread starter Rukas
- Start date
Then his government issued Sonic Deadline neck collar will explode when he crossed the line into Manchester (a-la Running Man)
You couldn't be more wrong. I understand where South Park is coming from. I understand the subversive nature of their humor. South Park are ridiculing the fact that people are supposed to walk on eggshells when talking about Muslims, as well as ridiculing the right-wing Fox News types, and their complete ignorance of something like Islam.
I don't feel the need to walk on eggshells when it comes to Islam because I have Muslim friends who are progressive, forward thinking people. And they hate the fundamental part of Islam just as much as I do. OK, maybe not JUST as much, but we're on the same page. I don't hold my tongue when I talk to them about my feelings. Obviously I don't mock them either because they are my friends. But I don't hold back at all.
And clearly I'm a liberal and have nothing in common with the Fox News/Republican types. I don't support the wars in the Middle East and I don't support the West attacking Islam either.
My viewpoint is simple - Muslims in the West can't expect to get away with preaching radicalism and ideas that might work for them in Islamic countries, in the West where we believe in freedom of speech. I support my right to say what the fuck I want no matter who it might offend. That's MY right in MY society. If I go to an Arab country, I'll abide by the ways of their society whilst I'm there.
LOL @ you not looking it up yourself and blindly taking someone else's word for it.
LOL @ at saying she was 11 when her own scripture says she was 6.
LOL @ 11 being any better.
LOL @ you being gullible enough to believe people were somehow more evolved and mature back THEN.
LOL @ you thinking living in the desert makes you look like you're 16/17.
Let's put this into perspective.
Are you turned on?
I don't know where you get the idea that Muslims in countries with predominantly-Muslim populations can kill non-believers at will. This is just a myth. I mean, granted, in Somalia it might not be a big deal because there's anarchy and no functioning government. But you think in Dubai that I'll get killed on the street and it will be legal? Or in Saudi Arabia?
I think the inability to understand the motives of the counter-part you are quarreling with is programmed in our nature, and the sole reason behind every human conflict. Two parts can intend to do good to one another but end up destroying each other. That is how I would describe the western world vs. middle-east situation in the past decade. The people commanding the invasion might have had monetary goals that they pursued, but the soldier and the officers-in-the-field, the world that was watching, all intended for this to happen in the interest of sharing our wealth, our centuries of technological and sociological advances with them instead of them having get there all by themselves. Their ways of practice and social etiquette are comparable the the ways of the western world some centuries ago, so with our inability to think outside of the box when we see a solution, we immediately apply some biased and assumed logic to the situation. -"We used to be like them but now we're not, so we must be ahead of them. They will have to go through the same troubles as us, with civil wars, creating a functioning and non-corrupt government, banking and legal system, etc. Let's just take them up to our speed right now and save them the hassle of having to figure it out themselves!"
On the other side, you have people in the middle east who like assume the whole world wants their oil and are sinners and filth. And their leaders use the people's religious belief to turn the people against the western world, out of selfish goals(*), just like our western leaders probably had monetary goals with their actions. So the middle-eastern people are angry because they believe we want to take something from them, and we don't understand why they're angry because we all think we're helping. At the top you have delusional, ultra selfish, narcissistic people who rule countries (or extremist groups) and send people to their deaths. And it doesn't change the lives of these leaders in any significant way. If you dig deeper into that mountain of thoughts, there are probably further explanations for why someone would send someone to death over a belief, or over selfish monetary gains. Maybe Bush never got enough attention as a child, so now he goes out into the world and takes whatever he wants, because that's what he always had to do to get what he wanted.
This is an intricate debate, and it's not as easy as "we're pushing our ways onto them without realizing they don't want us to", or "the western world have to understand that we have lived for the same amount of millenniums, and our ways work for us, leave us alone please". Both statements are partially flawed and reflect one side of a many-sided issue. I think if belief in fictional characters disappeared, something else that was equally retarded but in a different way would take it's place and become the new thing that some other culture who considered themselves more advanced would scrutinize and want to change. I think it is in our nature to pick sides and then bash the other side because they are different.
The only argument I agree with is that I don't think I should have to watch my mouth. If you can't handle what I say, you should kill yourself or live alone in the forest. You have no rights when it comes to my opinions, and I do have freedom of speech. I'm not gonna say Muhammad was a pedophile, I'm leaning more towards Immortal Tech/Duke/that gang on this particular matter. Our judgment of this issue is biased by the time we grew up in, and I question the motives to desire to categorize it as "pedophilia" based on the fact that it was his favorite wife. You assume that that had something to do with sexual relations, which is your assumption based on who you are. Maybe he never got to be a child, and her youthful energy awoke feelings in him that he never got to explore. Maybe there are other things that we are unaware about/not thinking about because our motives might be to disprove Islam or to exercise our freedom of speech for no other reason than having the ability to. I'm often judgmental, but soon as others get judgmental I feel inclined to give my judgmental opinion about them being judgmental. It all comes down to this: I care about me and my opinions more than anything else. Even people who proclaim they don't - that's a web of lies. Ultimately, a random/weird/retarded belief would only be upheld by a person if it served them in a positive way.
(*) Selfishness can be defined in many ways, but everything you do from your own particular point of view (any action you make, any thought you have) is per definition selfish. If I believe I need to kill 10 people to save a 1000, one can say that I did it because it was righteous. But from a psychological point of view, what happened in my brain was, I got a desire to carry out action X, and merely carrying it out was satisfaction in itself. Thus, anything I/you do, even in the name of good, is selfish per my definition. That might clear up my usage of the word selfish when referring to religious leaders in the Middle East. The pope is the biggest cock in the world to me and I would gladly wound his face if I could do so without further harass.
I think Muslims are definitely manipulated by their government to think Westerners are evil and hate them.
The thing is Islam makes it very easy to justify violence, torture and murder.
Other Religions are either more peaceful (Buddhism and modern Christianity) or more evolved socially (Christianity) and can't really be manipulated that way. Sure they did it in the crusades, but that was the Vatican and Kings twisting shit, and we've moved past that now. I dont think any sane Westerner believes in "Holy War" anymore, and certainly not enough of them to make an impact. We've socially evolved.
Islam really is brutal and preaches a lot of violence.
I mean, where Christianity teaches "turn the other cheek," Islam says "give them lashes" or worse.
And the problem with the world's conflict is outlined in this thread.
While Christianity evolved because people were allowed to question the Vatican and Bible and did so, Islam and Muslims did not.
As long as Muslims think Islam is 100% right and accurate they will continue acting like they lived 1400 years ago. You have people like ImmortalTech who HAVE socially changed and can recognize that difference, and then you have the lyrical starts who think it's alright to threaten me with caving my head in because any sort of discussion, criticism and thus progress is forbidden.
The thing is Islam makes it very easy to justify violence, torture and murder.
Other Religions are either more peaceful (Buddhism and modern Christianity) or more evolved socially (Christianity) and can't really be manipulated that way. Sure they did it in the crusades, but that was the Vatican and Kings twisting shit, and we've moved past that now. I dont think any sane Westerner believes in "Holy War" anymore, and certainly not enough of them to make an impact. We've socially evolved.
Islam really is brutal and preaches a lot of violence.
I mean, where Christianity teaches "turn the other cheek," Islam says "give them lashes" or worse.
And the problem with the world's conflict is outlined in this thread.
While Christianity evolved because people were allowed to question the Vatican and Bible and did so, Islam and Muslims did not.
As long as Muslims think Islam is 100% right and accurate they will continue acting like they lived 1400 years ago. You have people like ImmortalTech who HAVE socially changed and can recognize that difference, and then you have the lyrical starts who think it's alright to threaten me with caving my head in because any sort of discussion, criticism and thus progress is forbidden.
Actually Ruk, I haven't changed anything at all. Like all studies, Islam has a science behind it. Contrary to popular belief, simply reading the Quran or the Hadith is not enough to properly understand Islam. There's studies of Fiqh, Tafseer and so on that add perspective and give a more comprehensive understanding to the Quran and Hadith.
I feel that Muslims (general population and most scholars) don't fully educate themselves and thats the reason why Islam is so widely misunderstood. Whether it be socio-political motives to blind the masses or just plain ignorance.
Thats why I think, today a majority of Muslims have a very skewed understanding of Islam. And our ignorance is what ruins our image.
I take a different approach to things because I see so many Muslims that have no clue, they just go by what their parents told them or what their teacher taught them, and never bother going deeper into it. If Muslims are ignorant to their own religion. How can I sit here and be mad at non-muslims that are ignorant to it as well. Most non-muslims only see what we put on display. If we're acting like monkeys its only a logical to infer that Muslims act like monkeys cuz that's what their religious values has taught them.
Personally I like questioning things, and then studying to find answers, and that's whats strengthened my faith. There was times in my life you woulda never guessed I was a Muslim. Yea if you asked me I'd say I was Muslim, but my actions would suggest otherwise. I've had very different life experiences than many Muslims and Non Muslims in the west and the east. But thats another story...
In response to ur comment about, "Islam makes it very easy to justify violence, torture and murder." I agree with what you're saying due to the ignorance that surrounds certain verses of the Quran and certain Hadith. But as I mentioned earlier with a more comprehensive understanding to those verses and Hadith you'll begin to see that Islam doesn't advocate violence, torture or murder at all. I'm not one of those people that sit there and say "Islam is a religion of peace" because thats simply not true. Islam empowers people to defend themselves against oppression. It's just sad to see that today Muslim's use Islam to justify oppressing others and taking innocent lives.
Anyways I dont wanna talk to much, because this discussion is already all over the place..
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and now.. back on topic. Here's the sources as you asked for Ruk...
Sahih Bukhari 5.234
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
... What she's describing in that Hadith is some of the many symptoms a girl goes through during puberty. In another source (although a weaker one, I figured I'd add it anyways)
"Tabari says that she was so young that she stayed in her parents' home and the marriage was consummated there later when she had reached puberty". - Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Harper San Francisco, 1992, page 157.
..
Hope that clearifies some things
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Just my personal piece of advice to everyone on this board:
-Learn to respect others ideas, thoughts and beliefs. We all live completely separate lives, we all see things from very different eyes and we all are biased one way or another. Disrespecting someones beliefs will not convince them of anything nor will it make you look intelligent. And to those that feel disrespected, stop acting on emotion and getting defensive and attacking others. That wont make anyone start respecting you or your beliefs. In fact it'll strengthen their beliefs that ur an idiot just like they thought.
You read something that you find offensive and something that pisses you off, dont start typing up a msg thats most likely filled with just as much bullshit as the one ur responding to.. chill.. Let the emotions run through u, and use ur brain to formulate an appropriate response.
And I'm not just saying that cuz I think oh I'm mister perfect. I say some stupid shit too, just like the rest of you.
Peace
saying "i can say what I want in MY country because I have the right to freedom of speech" is so fucking arrogant it makes me sick.
this is purely about having respect, not about "treading on eggshells" to appease them. if you live in a multicultural society, this is about having respect for the cultures around you. there's a difference between tolerating all the bullshit and purely having respect. if you know that making a drawing / depiction of a religious figure will piss people off, then don't do it. why do you need to do it? to prove a point? is it really necessary to do something like that? no, it isn't. to them, it's a case of, "ok, I can respect your right to freedom of speech, but you should also respect what i hold dear and what i value most". as an example, I can tell you you're ugly (although others may not agree..), but I won't say it (even though I can), because it's rude and disrespectful.
to me, that;s simple.
this is purely about having respect, not about "treading on eggshells" to appease them. if you live in a multicultural society, this is about having respect for the cultures around you. there's a difference between tolerating all the bullshit and purely having respect. if you know that making a drawing / depiction of a religious figure will piss people off, then don't do it. why do you need to do it? to prove a point? is it really necessary to do something like that? no, it isn't. to them, it's a case of, "ok, I can respect your right to freedom of speech, but you should also respect what i hold dear and what i value most". as an example, I can tell you you're ugly (although others may not agree..), but I won't say it (even though I can), because it's rude and disrespectful.
to me, that;s simple.
^^ The people that are upset about the drawing of Muhammad to the point to threaten people over it are the type that dont show other people respect. They move to a different country and expect THAT country to bend to their beliefs instead of adapting to where they are at.
Respect is earned, not forced. They try to force it through fear, but fear and respect are two different things.
Respect is earned, not forced. They try to force it through fear, but fear and respect are two different things.
you're missing the point illy.
The danish drawing was a political cartoon. South Park is a satirical look at all kinds of cultures and groups. In both of those instances, EVERYONE gets made fun of.
The point is that these fundamentalists want special treatment. Why? Then, when they don't get that, they overreact to the situation. Fucking death threats? Those are bullying tactics because their faith gives them some fucking kind of superiority complex.
I'm not saying other religions don't bully people, either - like I've said many times I hate ALL religions.
But listen - when it gets to the point where you're making death threats to the creators of a fucking cartoon show that makes fun of EVERYBODY on the fucking planet, and your hardcore followers are literally killing people in the street (like Theo Van Gogh) because of a film that wasn't made for the
purpose of being disrespectful (His film was about violence against women in Islam), in a country that's not even a Muslim country (Holland) - at that point you better fucking check yourself.
Because, to me, and most normal people, THAT is a billion times more offensive than any cartoon anyone could ever draw. Take someone's life or threatening to take it is literally the lowest thing that a person can do. It's not even acceptable when someone pushes you to your breaking point. So you know, that's just one reason (of many) that offends me and makes me not give a fuck about your shit.
Being in the business that I'm in - you see the way people act. Two instances I remember pretty clearly - 1 girl who was a stripper/pornstar and another who was a pop singer. Both girls I guess were born and raised here but their parents were from Pakistan and were Muslim. I'm pretty sure both used stage names in their professions. But when they attained a certain level of fame and recognition in their respective industries - the hate mail and death threats began. and never stopped since. These girls have both been scared for their lives and have had to keep moving to different places, moved in secret, etc. And, the fucked up thing is, neither of them ever really claimed they were Muslim or they had faith. They could have been atheists. They could have been converts to any other religion, or anything. But these psychos are out to get them in the name of the faith.....purely based on their ethnic heritage.
Who the fuck gives you the right to treat ppl like that?
The danish drawing was a political cartoon. South Park is a satirical look at all kinds of cultures and groups. In both of those instances, EVERYONE gets made fun of.
The point is that these fundamentalists want special treatment. Why? Then, when they don't get that, they overreact to the situation. Fucking death threats? Those are bullying tactics because their faith gives them some fucking kind of superiority complex.
I'm not saying other religions don't bully people, either - like I've said many times I hate ALL religions.
But listen - when it gets to the point where you're making death threats to the creators of a fucking cartoon show that makes fun of EVERYBODY on the fucking planet, and your hardcore followers are literally killing people in the street (like Theo Van Gogh) because of a film that wasn't made for the
purpose of being disrespectful (His film was about violence against women in Islam), in a country that's not even a Muslim country (Holland) - at that point you better fucking check yourself.
Because, to me, and most normal people, THAT is a billion times more offensive than any cartoon anyone could ever draw. Take someone's life or threatening to take it is literally the lowest thing that a person can do. It's not even acceptable when someone pushes you to your breaking point. So you know, that's just one reason (of many) that offends me and makes me not give a fuck about your shit.
Being in the business that I'm in - you see the way people act. Two instances I remember pretty clearly - 1 girl who was a stripper/pornstar and another who was a pop singer. Both girls I guess were born and raised here but their parents were from Pakistan and were Muslim. I'm pretty sure both used stage names in their professions. But when they attained a certain level of fame and recognition in their respective industries - the hate mail and death threats began. and never stopped since. These girls have both been scared for their lives and have had to keep moving to different places, moved in secret, etc. And, the fucked up thing is, neither of them ever really claimed they were Muslim or they had faith. They could have been atheists. They could have been converts to any other religion, or anything. But these psychos are out to get them in the name of the faith.....purely based on their ethnic heritage.
Who the fuck gives you the right to treat ppl like that?
Three things.
1. No one is arguing that the response this South Park cartoon may get is OK nor is anyone arguing the response the Danish cartoons received is OK.
2. There's a difference between adapting to a country's freedom of speech and being subject to culturally-insensitive ridicule. The latter makes a freedom of speech crusader - an outright asshole. I think the societies in mention have all, at least Pre-9/11, pursued multicultural societies where people's customs and traditions are respected. That's what it's ultimately about. What is the benefit of freedom of speech if you use it to ridicule others for no good purpose?
3. Who is they? I noticed you and Masta keep talking about these "They"? It's probably a significant minority who gets riled up with violent thoughts and threats when it comes to these issues. You make it seem like the Islam faith is a big cult where "THEY" all think and act alike.
I think it sucks that the "handful" (even if that handful is _______) of Muslim/Islam extremists end up representing the 1.5(+/-) billion Muslims on this Earth.
In all the islamophobes responses, they claim that Muslims are not part of the western society. and since they come from third world countries, they should assimilate even if they have to give up their beliefs. This in itself is xenophobia. Even those those Muslims are born and raised in those very western countries.
Anyway, why do you expect us to respect your freedom of speech when you fail to respect our freedom of faith?
Anyway, why do you expect us to respect your freedom of speech when you fail to respect our freedom of faith?
This is a very good post. Islam is more than just believing in Allah. As for the prophet, his life consists more than just being married to Aisha. But they pick that part to provoke us. We you hold something so dear to you, you cant really hold your anger or control it. They will never understand this though. There life is based on worldly matters. Some here have no faith. So they find it okd to curse or insult others faiths. You can't do that. And if you insist on doing it. Then accept the consequence of your actions.
You can have freedom of speech. but don't use your freedom of speech to attack and insult my faith. and expect me to just laugh
I'll do whatever the fuck I like with my freedom of speech, because that's what it means.
Why get angry? My life shouldn't make a difference to you. Religions preach humility which means you should turn the other cheek.
Quite frankly, the atrocities committed in the name of religion, including Islam, offend me deeply. I could very easily get angry at the way you people treat women and people different to you. And that's something worth getting angry about, because it's an issue of disrespecting human beings in general, not just one religion or faith.
If you guys keep up with demanding special treatment and then over-reacting when you don't get it, one of these days don't be surprised when everyone else joins forces to eliminate you. And I don't care how many crazy-ass Taliban motherfuckers there are - if it came down to a war with Islam VS Christianity + Judaism + Hinduism + Sikhism.....you'd be completely fucked.
Take accountability for your fundamentalists or this day won't be far off.
Sure, there are people who use the freedom of speech thing as an excuse to attack someone. In certain situations, the only goal they seem to have in mind is to ridicule or hurt somebody else and i wholeheartly disagree with that kind of behaviour.
On the other hand, picture that: In the case of Islam and Muhammad, you couldnt even start a serious discussion about the very topic of this thread. Lets just say im purely interested in what the respsonse from a muslim would be regarding specific things of Muhammads life, for example. It should be perfectly possible to have that kind of conversation, right? Yet im sure some of "them" wouldnt even accept the intention of discussing it. Dont you think thats, nicely said, weird? Sure, im not forcing a discussion up on anybody who does not wanna talk about something but dont you think its way beyond acceptable if some go totally fucking ape shit when "we" voice a different opinion?
Even you should be able to realise that these two principles or ideas overlap from time to time.
Plus, you dont have to respect freedom of speech at all. Lets just say, for the sake of the argument, you dont respect freedom of speech and somebody else does not respect freedom of faith. Then you could keep that opinion to yourself or not. So you say "fuck your freedom of speech" and the other guy says "fuck freedom of faith". Then you turn around and live your life.
I think they're just making fun of the entire situation.
I won't deny that the original Danish cartoons had little meaning to them. They were just provocative. And muslims have every right to get pissed off and tell the authors to go suck on some hobbitcock.
But death threats and making the poor guy go into hiding? Come on.
I understand what point you are trying to convey here and in theory you're right. Not everyone is the same and you can't treat everyone the same. But i think, i know, that a lot of people in the west, in all layers of society, are pretty tired from having to scadoodle around avoiding to step on some muslim toes. There are no Hindu problems, no Buddhist problems, no Christian problems, no Jewish problems in the western world anywhere as big the Muslim problems.
And the western culture isn't going to change and give one religion or culture a special treatment to avoid pissing them off. You know this.
In what context?
Firstly, I don't believe anything is above discussion and criticism. Not even Islam or Muhammad. However, the context in which the discussion occurs and the manner in which it is conducted matters.
If you're speaking about this thread specifically, I don't think anyone on the opposing side went ape shit. As for the intentions behind it, I'd refer you to Jokerman's post.
I did put it in a very generalizing way. What I meant was that a fair amount of muslims living in the west expect different treatment, which they're just not going to get.
I wholeheartedly agree with the whole respect issue, but Rukas said it very well when he stated that it's earned, not forced. A lot of muslims want to force it. Which offends a lot of westerners and then you get a see-saw of hate.
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