Muslim population growth

[Euphanasia]

Why is it that Christianity and Islam seem to be breeding the most extremists? I haven't seen a Hindu or Jew extremist. Or Buddhist one either.

never seen an atheist extremist

 

[Flipmo]

never seen an atheist extremist

I'm sure there are some, just not in the same way as to going around killing political leaders and such. Any ideology can be pushed to the extreme, just need a specific somebody to embody it.

... I fear I may have opened a can of worms. :wacko:

 

[Chronic]

never seen an atheist extremist

Atheism isn't an ideology.

 

[Flipmo]

You don't think so? Some would think it is.
It used to be a hated idea when religion was dominant in all aspects of life and you'd be considered a heretic for being one.

Obviously, we don't life in those times anymore, but I'd go out on a limb and call it perhaps a philosophy? By all means though, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Chronic]

It just means you reject the existence of God or any other gods, doesn't it? There are no is 'atheistic' belief system. Most of the 'atheism' talk is because of what the Bible and Qur'an say about 'unbelievers' and the only reason the word 'atheist' exists is because the word 'theist' exists. Or is that not what you meant?

 

[masta247]

It's "believing that God doesn't exist". I guess that it's not really an ideology per se because it doesn't contain any more rules or philosophy but being an atheist is not being neutral either. It's a stance that is the opposite to being religious. Agnosticism is the neutral one.

Atheism contains no values except that you should believe that God doesn't exist but if I saw a guy acting against religious groups just because they are religious he'd probably fit in an "atheist extremist" label. If not by definition then by common sense - after all it'd be his atheism that caused him to violate moral standards.

 

[Flipmo]

It just means you reject the existence of God or any other gods, doesn't it? There are no is 'atheistic' belief system. Most of the 'atheism' talk is because of what the Bible and Qur'an say about 'unbelievers' and the only reason the word 'atheist' exists is because the word 'theist' exists. Or is that not what you meant?

Well, generally you're right. It's pretty much the rejection of a higher-power and the idea of an afterlife. That being said, wouldn't that be a belief though? For example, no one can really prove there is no afterlife, just as a devout Christian can prove there is one. Wouldn't that be a leap of faith in itself? A certain belief that cannot be proven? (Not choosing sides here, I'm just playing around with discussion). Ideologies are a set of beliefs, wouldn't that be one of them? There is also such a thing as positive and negative Atheism...

I'm not saying you guys are wrong, but I like humoring ideas

 

[masta247]

^ Well, most atheists would tell you that it's so unlikely that God exists that it makes it almost a fact, not a belief. Also, since there are no real, scientific premises of God's existence it's obvious that:
1. (Atheist version) God doesn't exist
2. (Agnostic version) it's impossible to tell whether God exists or not.

I like the second version and personally find it to be the "best" (as it's not biased) stance.
To me it also seems like atheists are like agnostics that were pissed off with theists and picked the other extreme.

EDIT: I also found these very interesting, because they might describe me, I just don't really know which one, lol:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

 

[dilla]

^ Well, most atheists would tell you that it's so unlikely that God exists that it makes it almost a fact, not a belief. Also, since there are no real, scientific premises of God's existence it's obvious that:
1. (Atheist version) God doesn't exist
2. (Agnostic version) it's impossible to tell whether God exists or not.

I like the second version and personally find it to be the "best" (as it's not biased) stance.
To me it also seems like atheists are like agnostics that were pissed off with theists and picked the other extreme.

EDIT: I also found this very interesting:
Agnostic theism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I like the second statement too, but both are statements and statements can be pushed to radical extremes and proportions. So if it's one saying "God does exist" or "God does not exist" they are both statements that can be taken to extremities. That's why I think there can be atheist extremists.

People that say "Fuck religion" I see the analogous form of that as all those Christians with their equally extremist slogans. Same thing with Islam.

 

[Chronic]

Well, generally you're right. It's pretty much the rejection of a higher-power and the idea of an afterlife. That being said, wouldn't that be a belief though? For example, no one can really prove there is no afterlife, just as a devout Christian can prove there is one. Wouldn't that be a leap of faith in itself? A certain belief that cannot be proven? (Not choosing sides here, I'm just playing around with discussion). Ideologies are a set of beliefs, wouldn't that be one of them? There is also such a thing as positive and negative Atheism...

I'm not saying you guys are wrong, but I like humoring ideas

That's partly what we're here for :thumb:

(Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary) ideology: a set of beliefs, especially held by a particular group, that influences the way people behave. Rejecting the idea of God and the afterlife doesn't influence the way you behave. The Abrahamic religions especially speak to our fears and hopes and our need for justice so when you reject those ideas it may shatter a lot of positive emotions or a certain peace of mind so in that sense atheism does influence the way you behave. But in a larger sense the rejection of deities doesn't influence your behavior. If the only religion we had on earth was of a god who had created us but didn't interfere with our lives in any way the rejection of this idea wouldn't really have any effect. Of course it would leave questions that humans have asked themselves throughout history and continue to ask unanswered and that will influence your behavior but by going by that logic you call the belief that sticking your hand in an open flame will hurt and cause damage to your body an ideology. That belief will influence your behavior. Everything you accept as a truth or a lie or are doubtful over will influence your behavior.
I agree that atheism is a leap of faith but any rational atheist will tell you that they're actually agnostic. But I've always disagreed with religious people who use that as a counter-argument when people tell them "you can't prove that God exists". You're not born with the belief in God or gods, that's why 'atheism' is merely a by-product of theism. Theists brought a theory into the world and it's up to them to prove it. It would be like me saying there's a planet 5,000,000 light years away where unicorns live and they crap diamonds. Try disproving that. You can't. Sure, it's theoretically possible but that doesn't matter. Unless I can prove my theory it's nothing but air. It may be a leap of faith to reject this theory but it's so insignificant that it's barely worth mentioning.
Of course there are different interpretations within Christianity but a Christian theist will have a true set of beliefs. Their beliefs tell them their purpose in life, what they can and should they and what they can't and musn't do etc.. Simply rejecting the Christian Bible doesn't say anything about what beliefs you adhere to, except that you don't adhere to the Christian beliefs. I get so aggrevated when I see youtube videos of Christians going on about "you believe that you came from monkeys [APES YOU CUNT AND WE'RE STILL APES] so it gives you an excuse to live like monkeys". Even accepting evolution as a truth doesn't give you a set of beliefs.

Now if you'll excuse me it's 3:49 am and I'm going to sleep. Should've probably waited till tomorrow to write this, I hope it's a bit cohesive.

 

[Euphanasia]

Atheism isn't an ideology.

Okay that's arguable but let's rephrase: i don't turn on the news and see people blowing up buildings in the name of atheism. how strange it is.

 

[_carmi]

I didn't check the video. But of course Muslim population is growing everywhere, they are immigrating in every Western country. And then some (see? not generalizing) try to impose their own set of rules, then say we are racist if we don't oblige. It caused quite a stir here.

What I don't understand is why are we giving them so many extra rights that non-immigrants don't have. For example, why do they get extra holidays? Do I get extra holidays? No. Then they should either take the paycut for these days they aren't working or work the extra hours to get them off.

And people piss me of when they use their religious holidays as excuses. I work in Collections for a bank and some guy told me he couldn't pay because that specific day was a holiday. When I replied that he could have paid any other day before his due date, he told me I didn't respect his holiday. I felt like telling him off.

Ps that goes for all non-Christian religion followers who get our Christian holidays + their holidays. I swear, I'm going to sign up at a mosque or something and get these extra days off too. Or invent my own religion with plenty of holidays. If we give them all they want, then I want all they want too.

 

[Elmira]

What I don't understand is why are we giving them so many extra rights that non-immigrants don't have. For example, why do they get extra holidays? Do I get extra holidays? No. Then they should either take the paycut for these days they aren't working or work the extra hours to get them off.

And people piss me of when they use their religious holidays as excuses. I work in Collections for a bank and some guy told me he couldn't pay because that specific day was a holiday. When I replied that he could have paid any other day before his due date, he told me I didn't respect his holiday. I felt like telling him off.

Ps that goes for all non-Christian religion followers who get our Christian holidays + their holidays. I swear, I'm going to sign up at a mosque or something and get these extra days off too. Or invent my own religion with plenty of holidays. If we give them all they want, then I want all they want too.

Maybe you meant what you said in a way other than I read it, but how I interpreted your words is: you are growing an unreasonable dislike for a group of people based upon the fact one of their numbers once made your work day harder and also that, you feel somehow more deserving then they are for extra time off? Perhaps you should find a job that makes you happy, or ask your boss for a little time off.

 

[S O F I]

Atheism may not be an ideology but there is a common set of beliefs (a belief not being faith-related, but simply a conviction and confidence in an assertion about the world) associated with atheism. That set might consist of rejecting religion, believing in evolution, etc. In other words, if you were to question all atheists in the world about certain views, there would probably be about 2-3 same ones that would echo. Those beliefs do then influence the way people behave. One example off the top of my head is that an atheist probably would not vote for a person running for office if the person believed in Creationism. (I'd fucking hope that's the case). If someone were to argue that atheism is not an ideology and say that there are requirements needed to label something an ideology, I wouldn't argue against it. The more interesting question that arises from Chronic's statement is why he feels the need to explicitly say it's not an ideology. It probably has something to do with atheists' distaste for groupthink and lack of independent thought in religious circles. Atheists want to believe that they've chosen their path for themselves, that they are independent and rational, and not "sheep". There is a superiority complex that comes with it that I don't expect Chronic or most atheists to admit. Hey, when I meet a very religious person, my superiority complex starts blinking. Atheists like to point out that atheism is absence of belief. But there's the faith-based belief and belief, as I stated, that you have a conviction about something. You have a conviction that God, in the Abrahamic sense, does not exist. In other words, you have a belief.

 

[Chronic]

Atheism may not be an ideology but there is a common set of beliefs (a belief not being faith-related, but simply a conviction and confidence in an assertion about the world) associated with atheism. That set might consist of rejecting religion, believing in evolution, etc.

I think it's far more correct to say that there are beliefs, such as evolution, that are disassociated with religion.

Those beliefs do then influence the way people behave. One example off the top of my head is that an atheist probably would not vote for a person running for office if the person believed in Creationism.

Every single bit of knowledge in the world will influence your behavior though, so it's a moot point (I addressed this in my earlier post). If you believe a strawberry is red and someone tells you to name something red you may say "STWABEWWY!".

The more interesting question that arises from Chronic's statement is why he feels the need to explicitly say it's not an ideology.

The more interesting question that you answered poorly

Atheists want to believe that they've chosen their path for themselves, that they are independent and rational, and not "sheep".

I don't believe in free will. If I'm independent, rational and not a sheep it's merely through the combination of genetics and my life experiences (little more complicated than that but you get the point I'm sure).

There is a superiority complex that comes with it that I don't expect Chronic or most atheists to admit.

I'm agnostic but that doesn't really matter. I wouldn't call it a superiority complex but if you must call it that then I also have a superiority complex when I see people saying Lil Wayne has a bad flow or when someone says Creed is the best band on earth. I really only feel superior (keyword 'feel', I don't think I am) when I see religious people who for example make youtube videos like "5 questions atheists should ask themselves" and bombarb you with 15 minutes of the most idiotic train of thought you have ever heard. Or when they say "you don't believe in God because you don't want" and "accept Jesus Christ into your life" as if it's as simple as opening a fucking box, like "hey Jesus, found ya!". When I discuss with religious people I always try to talk as if God does exist (which is ironic because I remember the Bible saying they should talk to me on my level) and respect their beliefs as a possible truth.

In other words, you have a belief.

Sure but what's the significance of pointing this out? Personally I've only seen atheists say this in regards to religious people talking about atheism as if it's a religion and as if there are 'atheistic beliefs' (there's just 1).

And the reason why I so explicitly said it's not an ideology is because when Euphanasia said "never seen an atheist extremist " I thought he was being sarcastic and was using the same rhetoric I've seen a lot of religious people use "Hitler was an atheist" (although I don't think he actually was?) etc. and this prompted me to point out the flaw in his (and every other person who I have seen making that claim) logic. But now I remember Euphanasia not being religious and re-reading his post he wasn't being sarcastic.

 

[Chronic]

What I don't understand is why are we giving them so many extra rights that non-immigrants don't have.

Do they get those rights because of Canada respecting their religious rights or because they're immigrants?

 

[MaroC]

As far as I'm concerned the power and influence of religions should be minimized in Europe. And no, I'm not an atheist.
Also, Islam is the one making the most harm at the moment, not Christianity.
That tendency described there is obvious and kind of worries me but not really that much yet. I hope that in a civilized place it's harder to be brainwashed so maybe it's a good way of civilizing Islam.

Numbers, source etc etc please.

 

[MaroC]

I´ve been told that i lack some comprehensive reading skills. But did someone in this thread just tried to implicate that there werent no jew extremists...hahaha. Can a well educated atheist islam-hater forummember confirm this for me please

 

[Duke]

What I don't understand is why are we giving them so many extra rights that non-immigrants don't have. For example, why do they get extra holidays? Do I get extra holidays? No. Then they should either take the paycut for these days they aren't working or work the extra hours to get them off.

That's exxagerated, though. It's not like any other non-westeuro group of people get a shedload of extra holidays in the west.

I'm not religious so I don't see any problem with muslims getting a day off for Ramadan when christians can go celebrate Easter.

 

[Flipmo]

I don't care about the holiday thing either. I don't see the issue in letting them spending time with their families for Eid and such. Just as I don't mind the Jews having the day off for Hanukkah, etc.

I'd like to have a vacation day for November first, but Halloween rocks, and I like to drink hard in a Jason mask.