Israel appeared to have struck the site (U.N. observer post) deliberately.

[Morris]

Just like Morris, look how quick he was to criticize Lebanon for mistakenly reporting that 40 people died in the attack. Yet, when Israel bombed that building in Qana, he was so adamant in defending it.

I didn't criticize anyone. I explained that casualty counts are not always 100% accurate. Since someone earlier used the Lebanese as the "most trusted source" for casualty counts, I used a couple of examples to show how their initial estimates were way off, and thus the media shouldn't cite the numbers as fact. The only thing I criticized in the past few posts was the media's rush to judgment.

As a matter of a fact, most Israeli casualties are armed forces. On the other hand, most Lebanese causalities are civilians. But, no one really care about that.

As a matter of fact, you simply removed the context of the casualty counts. Lebanese civilians are dying because of Israeli retaliation against Hezbollah operating in their midst. Israeli civilians are dying because Hezbollah is intentionally firing thousands of rockets at their towns. Also, as of yesterday, more Israeli noncombatants have been killed than combatants.

As a matter of a fact, any Arab resistance is labeled terrorist.

Arab resistance groups are labeled terrorist when they start suicide bombing buses, intentionally target civilians with rockets packed with ball bearings, and call for the elimination of Israel and the genocide of Jews.

It just so happens that the description I just gave applies to every "Arab resistance group." But in actuality, their ethnicity has nothing to do with it. It's about their tactics.

Lebanon just pledged 15,000 soldiers to south lebanon when israel withdraws

Lebanon is insisting that Israeli forces are out of Lebanon before they deploy. That's obviously not going to work for Israel. It's going to require an international force with teeth. Lebanon's army is 80,000 strong: I think they should have more forces on that border. And this can't be UNIFIL Part 2 either. Hezbollah can't be allowed on the border.

 

[Khaled]

Going into a sovereign country, killing 3 soldiers and kidnapping 2 others is not resistance.

I'm not saying Israel is perfectly right on this, they should've gone the diplomatic route first and refrain from such heavy bombings. But hezbollah isn't some heroic and noble cause, they call for the destruction of israel and as Nasrallah said "if they all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.".

you guys never seem to understand this:

-Chebaa farms are still occupied
-Prisoners are still held in Israel
-Israel keeps violating Lebanon's air space

every step that leads to solving these three things is resistance action. According to many European countries, Hezb is not a terrorist organization. Just because the US and Israel disprove doesn't make them so.

I don't really understand your point anyway. Hezbollah will shoot at any Israeli it can. They couldn't care less if it's IDF or civilian.

that's your opinion.
from my point of view, it doesn't look like israel cares about hitting civillians neither.
saying that they asked them to evacuate is the most stupid thing:

Israel: please evacuate all northern cities so that Hebollah can fire rockets with minimum casualties...

I didn't criticize anyone. I explained that casualty counts are not always 100% accurate. Since someone earlier used the Lebanese as the "most trusted source" for casualty counts, I used a couple of examples to show how their initial estimates were way off, and thus the media shouldn't cite the numbers as fact. The only thing I criticized in the past few posts was the media's rush to judgment.

i said the lebanese army is the most credible.
the Quana initial number was given as an estimate by the red cross who were the 1st on the ground. then they changed it.

the 40 figure given by the PM turned up trapped but alive miraculasly. But it wasn't an official figure.
Besides, given that so many people turned up to be slaughteres and in many places, you would find parts of bodies and flesh scattered all over,, it's only normal to assume the unaccounted for as dead.

For Hezb casualties, the IDF has been claiming to kill 200 militants everyday since the beginning of the war, then after a month, the count is at 400??? give me a beak

 

[TecK NeeX]

you guys never seem to understand this:

-Chebaa farms are still occupied
-Prisoners are still held in Israel
-Israel keeps violating Lebanon's air space

To add on to that Israel crossed the lebanese boarder numerous times since 2000 up until July 12


Wish I could stay and post more but all I have is minutes these days on this board

 

[Morris]

-Chebaa farms are still occupied

The Farms have never been Lebanese territory. Never. They were taken from Syria in 1967. Since Syria refuses to recognize Lebanese sovereignty, they can't officially produce a paper ceding that land to Lebanon. The United Nations fully certified Israeli withdrawal from all of Lebanon in 2000.

This is a nonissue fabricated by Hezbollah as a justification to continue its terrorism.

-Prisoners are still held in Israel

Israel is holding 4 Lebanese prisoners. Hezbollah demands the release of Samir Kuntar, who led a 1979 terrorist attack in Israel in which he murdered a father in front of his 4 year old daughter, and then crushed the daughter's skull on rocks with the butt of his rifle. Note that Kuntar's terrorist attack, originating from Lebanon, occurred 3 years before Israel's invasion of Lebanon, and many years before Hezbollah even existed.

Israel is not holding Lebanese prisoners of war. They've jailed terrorist criminals. Hezbollah, a Lebanese resistance group (and I use the word Lebanese loosely), takes Israeli captives to trade mostly for Palestinian prisoners.

-Israel keeps violating Lebanon's air space

Israel "violates" Lebanese airspace when Hezbollah sets up positions on the border and fires mortars and other attacks. Last November Hezbollah tried a similar kidnapping ambush that failed.

Besides, since Lebanon refuses to assert its sovereignty over the south over Hezbollah, how can you accuse Israel of violating their airspace? If Israel is "violating" anyone's airspace, it's Hezbollah's. And Hezbollah has also been flying drones over Israel's border. Thus is it any wonder why Israel flies drones over the Lebanese border?

The logic behind all 3 of your arguments is twisted. That's not really surprising though, considering they're all original Hezbollah talking points.

 

[Think_ThuGLiFE]

Isreal has been obducting people for years .... but the fact hezbollah is fighting this on lebanese soil is wrong


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8182204992793198984&q=lebanon


watch this.. or this

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8983450470760185878&q=lebanon

 

[Khaled]

The Farms have never been Lebanese territory. Never. They were taken from Syria in 1967. Since Syria refuses to recognize Lebanese sovereignty, they can't officially produce a paper ceding that land to Lebanon. The United Nations fully certified Israeli withdrawal from all of Lebanon in 2000.

This is a nonissue fabricated by Hezbollah as a justification to continue its terrorism.

not true, Annan said that the blue line was not the final border.
people living in Chebaa paid taxes to Lebanon, and have lebanese identities. All lands are registered in Lebanon. They were occupied by Syria, but they still belong to lebanon.
I have friends from there and they know they are lebanese and they never considered themselves syrians.

I also believe i know my country better than you...

anyway, Israel's perception of Land is completely off, so i don't expect you to understand the concept of land possession. just so you know, at least since the 20st century, occupied land doesn't belong to the occupier. but yet again, there's only so much we can expect from an Israel supporter.

Israel is holding 4 Lebanese prisoners. Hezbollah demands the release of Samir Kuntar, who led a 1979 terrorist attack in Israel in which he murdered a father in front of his 4 year old daughter, and then crushed the daughter's skull on rocks with the butt of his rifle. Note that Kuntar's terrorist attack, originating from Lebanon, occurred 3 years before Israel's invasion of Lebanon, and many years before Hezbollah even existed.

at least you have your priorities straight. keeping Samir Kuntar is worth more to you than the death of 1000 lebanese civillians and 100 israeli.
i think giving him up is a small price for peace don't you think?

Israel "violates" Lebanese airspace when Hezbollah sets up positions on the border and fires mortars and other attacks. Last November Hezbollah tried a similar kidnapping ambush that failed.

Besides, since Lebanon refuses to assert its sovereignty over the south over Hezbollah, how can you accuse Israel of violating their airspace? If Israel is "violating" anyone's airspace, it's Hezbollah's. And Hezbollah has also been flying drones over Israel's border. Thus is it any wonder why Israel flies drones over the Lebanese border?

according to UNIFIL, Israel violated Lebanon's airspace on "a daily basis" between 2000 and 2003, and did so constantly after that.
and it wasn't just over south Lebanon.

The logic behind all 3 of your arguments is twisted. That's not really surprising though, considering they're all original Hezbollah talking points

well, give us these three things, and i promise you Hebollah will lose all popular support within a few days.

 

[Glockmatic]

well, give us these three things, and i promise you Hebollah will lose all popular support within a few days.

i'm pretty sure hezbollah support would rise even more because it would mean they won, what stops them from demanding more and more?

 

[Morris]

I also believe i know my country better than you...

Lebanon as constituted was drawn up by the French in the 20th century. The Farms were never part of Lebanon. It doesn't matter what ethnicity the people on the Farms are. The Sudetenland was full of Germans, but it was still part of Czechoslovakia when Hitler annexed it.

at least you have your priorities straight. keeping Samir Kuntar is worth more to you than the death of 1000 lebanese civillians and 100 israeli.
i think giving him up is a small price for peace don't you think?

Hezbollah's goal is a Jewish genocide worldwide and the destruction of Israel. Are you honestly trying to tell us that the release of murderers will ensure peace? Hezbollah continues to try to kidnap Israelis because they figured they could keep exchanging them for hundreds of Palestinian prisoners. Notice the trend: Israel doing prisoner exchanges led to Hezbollah attempting more kidnappings.

according to UNIFIL, Israel violated Lebanon's airspace on "a daily basis" between 2000 and 2003, and did so constantly after that. and it wasn't just over south Lebanon.

When someone across Lebanon's border continues to skirmish with Israel's border patrols, and Lebanon does nothing about it, it's incumbent on Israel to act. If Lebanon is not going to assert its sovereignty on the border, then Israel is not violating its sovereignty by crossing the border in response to Hezbollah's aggression.

well, give us these three things, and i promise you Hebollah will lose all popular support within a few days.

We all know how well appeasing terrorists works. Look at what happened when Israel withdrew from Gaza and Lebanon. Europe's insistence on appeasing terrorists now shows how shortsighted they are, given that their appeasement in the 1930s brought them World War II.

not true, Annan said that the blue line was not the final border.

From the UN Security Council itself:

In resolution 425 (1978), the Council called upon Israel to cease its military action against Lebanese territorial integrity and withdraw its forces from all Lebanese territory. The resolution also established the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) to confirm the Israeli withdrawal, restore international peace and security, and assist the Government of Lebanon in establishing its effective authority in the area. Resolution 426 (1978) established UNIFIL for an initial period of six months.]

In the report, the Secretary-General advises that Israel has met the requirements established in his 22 May report for the implementation of resolution 425. Those requirements were that Israel completely withdraw from Lebanese territory, that the Israeli auxiliary force known as the South Lebanon Army (SLA) be dismantled, and that all detainees in Al-Khiam prison be released.

Notwithstanding their reservations, both governments have confirmed that establishing the identifying line was the sole responsibility of the United Nations, the Secretary-General notes, and that they would respect the line the United Nations' identified.

I'd say that's a certification of full withdrawal.

 

[Tru Principle]

This is really cute, many versions of the truth...

 

[Kareem]

This is really cute, many versions of the truth...

an thats the problem, everyones propaganda machine is in overtime mode! I will not condone Hezabollaz actions, but Israel is no saint, they have done dirt in the past an continue to do it but of course the neo cons, zionists an pro Israeli lobby all support em no matter what they do. An then of course they crank up the propaganda machine so they can give the impression that their right as always. An people who dont think for themselves will always believe the hype. Israel has been kidnapping people for years, not just militants, but civillians as well. An you can give me the speel "well Israel says they dont an yadda yadda, here lemme now show you the info from a pro zionist source to prove it", that shits ridiculous.

You guys are arguing the same damn shit over an over again, an its going nowhere, thats why i havent posted in this thread much of late, its like debating with a brick wall, at some point in time ya gotta stop an say "man they have or are doing some fucked up shit" if you cant admit to some wrong doing on Israels part, both past an present then your blind and a puppet. I've already stated i am not nor was I ever a hezabolla, Islamic Jihad, Hamas ect supporter nor have I ever condoned their actions. You have no clue what its really like until you have been in that region, I've been there twice, its awhole different outlook/prospective. good God i can admit it, Hamas, Hezabolla do some fucked up shit! an they need to stop, you will never destroy Israel not as long as the united states of hypocricy (sp) is still a super power anyway. Dont be a tool Israel has done an continues to do its fair share of dirt as well! :fury:

An yes I would take Tru Principle's word over any U.S. or Israeli media source, he's living it, or has lived it like i said its awhole different prospective when you've been or live or lived in that region.

 

[Khaled]

Lebanon as constituted was drawn up by the French in the 20th century. The Farms were never part of Lebanon. It doesn't matter what ethnicity the people on the Farms are. The Sudetenland was full of Germans, but it was still part of Czechoslovakia when Hitler annexed it.

proofs???
The farms were part of Lebanon back then and they still are. So far, thre haven't been one proof that the area belongs to Syria, plus, it's known they are coveted by Israel.
All the UN has is inaccurate maps, but we have the whole history of the area, with documents dating to even before isral existed.

Hezbollah's goal is a Jewish genocide worldwide and the destruction of Israel. Are you honestly trying to tell us that the release of murderers will ensure peace? Hezbollah continues to try to kidnap Israelis because they figured they could keep exchanging them for hundreds of Palestinian prisoners. Notice the trend: Israel doing prisoner exchanges led to Hezbollah attempting more kidnappings.

Nasralah never asked for any extermination of jewish people, he even said many timers that Israel is not legitimate, and that the real solution will be a palesinian laic state with christian, jewish and muslims.

When someone across Lebanon's border continues to skirmish with Israel's border patrols, and Lebanon does nothing about it, it's incumbent on Israel to act. If Lebanon is not going to assert its sovereignty on the border, then Israel is not violating its sovereignty by crossing the border in response to Hezbollah's aggression.

As the saying goes, my ennemis ennemy is my friend. That's where Hezbollah draws most of its support.

We all know how well appeasing terrorists works. Look at what happened when Israel withdrew from Gaza and Lebanon. Europe's insistence on appeasing terrorists now shows how shortsighted they are, given that their appeasement in the 1930s brought them World War II.

The Gaza issue is completely differnt. You don't really eexpect that the small gaza strip desert could make the palestinian give up the idea of a palestinian state. If you do, than no need to argue anymore.

as far as lebanon is concerned, All of lebanon revolves around the Taif accord, which is accepted widely among all of Lebanon, and it clearly states that Hezbollah's role is resistance and that they should be disarmed as soon as lebanon, all of lebanon is liberated. Take away the motive, and the lebanese will never accept that Hezbollah keeps its weapons. i suggest you go through some lebanese forums and you might understand lebanon's view of Hezbollah. (i m saying Lebanon, not the arab world's view).
Hezb's weapons create a lot of sensitivity and criticism internally, but as long as Chebaa farms are occupied, any attempt to take the weapons away will be a break of the Taif accord, which is a red line n lebanon.

I'd say that's a certification of full withdrawal.

it's funny how some un resolutions are undisputable, specially those supported by Israel. i remember Israel's position before they withdrawal, most of israel considered this resolution anti-semitic...

 

[Glockmatic]

Nasralah never asked for any extermination of jewish people, he even said many timers that Israel is not legitimate, and that the real solution will be a palesinian laic state with christian, jewish and muslims.

"if they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.". Nasrallah said that during a graduation ceremony

 

[Morris]

proofs???
The farms were part of Lebanon back then and they still are. So far, thre haven't been one proof that the area belongs to Syria, plus, it's known they are coveted by Israel.
All the UN has is inaccurate maps, but we have the whole history of the area, with documents dating to even before isral existed.

The state of Lebanon was created by France from what had been the Levant. That state has never included the Farms. That's not Israel's fault or the UN's. Israel took that land from Syria in a war of self defense in 1967. Lebanon's use of the Farms as a justification for attacks on Israel is not justified

as far as lebanon is concerned, All of lebanon revolves around the Taif accord,

In the last post I showed that the Lebanese government agreed to respect and abide by the borders drawn by the UN in 2000.

Nasralah never asked for any extermination of jewish people

In 2002, like Glockmatic noted, Nasrallah called for the genocide of Jews. In 1994 Hezbollah attacked a Jewish community center in Argentina, killing over 80 people.

That's an interesting form of "resistance."

 

[Glockmatic]

"I have a special message to the Arabs of Haifa, to your martyrs and to your wounded. I call on you to leave this city. I hope you do this. ... Please leave so we don't shed your blood, which is our blood,"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060809...5IUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

but of course he has no problems shedding jewish blood

 

[Jurhum]

"I have a special message to the Arabs of Haifa, to your martyrs and to your wounded. I call on you to leave this city. I hope you do this. ... Please leave so we don't shed your blood, which is our blood,"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060809...5IUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

but of course he has no problems shedding jewish blood

Just like Israel who has no problem shedding Lebanese blood. It's an all out warfare, an eye for an eye.

 

[Glockmatic]

with that train of thought there will never be peace in the middle east

 

[Morris]

^ The irony of intentionally aiming thousands of rockets at Israeli Arabs and then calling them their own martyrs is incredible.

Even more ironic is that Hezbollah's expressed aim is to remove all the Jews from that land so Arabs can live there while Hezbollah is killing the Arabs that already live there and making it untenable for them.

 

[Tru Principle]

lol... the cycle of debate can never end.

 

[Khaled]

The state of Lebanon was created by France from what had been the Levant. That state has never included the Farms. That's not Israel's fault or the UN's. Israel took that land from Syria in a war of self defense in 1967. Lebanon's use of the Farms as a justification for attacks on Israel is not justified

Chebaa were part of Lebanon when it was created by Lebanon.
You're just repeating yourself. There are no prrofs that The farms belong to Syria, but plenty of evidence they are in Lebanon.

In the last post I showed that the Lebanese government agreed to respect and abide by the borders drawn by the UN in 2000.

You never abided by this resolution neither by constantly violating Lebanon's airspace.

In 2002, like Glockmatic noted, Nasrallah called for the genocide of Jews. In 1994 Hezbollah attacked a Jewish community center in Argentina, killing over 80 people.

That's an interesting form of "resistance."

there are no proofs that Hezbollah was behind the operation in Asrgentina, just speculation.
And that doesn't prove anything by the way. Nasrallah never called for genocide.

anyone can take a quote out of context and interpret it the way they want. All quoets by Israel official show their intention to exterminate all lebanese.

Lebanon's use of the Farms as a justification for attacks on Israel is not justified

it is since Israel has been refusing any diplomatic efforts to solve this issue peacefully.

^ The irony of intentionally aiming thousands of rockets at Israeli Arabs and then calling them their own martyrs is incredible.

Even more ironic is that Hezbollah's expressed aim is to remove all the Jews from that land so Arabs can live there while Hezbollah is killing the Arabs that already live there and making it untenable for them.

even jewish civillians are called martyrs by Hezbollah. but i m sure Israel's propagandad never told you that.

Even more ironic is that Hezbollah's expressed aim is to remove all the Jews from that land so Arabs can live there while Hezbollah is killing the Arabs that already live there and making it untenable for them.

we all know how well arabs are treated in Israel, and how come towns with predominant arab populations in Israel don't have bomb shelters.
Besides, Hezbollah warned he's gonna strike North Israel. The civillians are responsible for their own death cuz they didn't leave (wasn't that Israel's argument for bombing civillians???)


a few more points.

All violations of the Blue Line by Hebollah (except the kidnapping) were in the Chebaa farms. And since Israel claims it's syrian, then that's not israel's business anyway.

Its really amazing how people use technicalities to justify the destruction of a whole country, but completely ignore all the facts (like that the US and Israel killed more civillians than all arab "terrorists" combineds). But just as Morris said, the numbers are irrelevant

i m glad that today, Israelis are getting a small taste of what lebanese and palesinians have been going through for years. Why should we care about Israeli civillians, they shure as hell don't seem to give a shit about us

 

[Morris]

Chebaa were part of Lebanon when it was created by Lebanon.
You're just repeating yourself. There are no prrofs that The farms belong to Syria, but plenty of evidence they are in Lebanon.

Feel free to show me a detailed timeline of Lebanon's 20th century history in which the Farms were part of Lebanon.

You never abided by this resolution neither by constantly violating Lebanon's airspace.

I have never violated anyone's airspace Anyway, Israel has the right to defend itself across Lebanon's border when Hezbollah continued to attack from across it. It was Lebanon's job to enforce its sovereignty there and stop Hezbollah. Thus this is a Lebanese failure.

Nasrallah never called for genocide. anyone can take a quote out of context and interpret it the way they want.

"If they all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." How is that not calling for a genocide? Please explain to us how such an obvious statement is apparently being taken out of context.

even jewish civillians are called martyrs by Hezbollah. but i m sure Israel's propagandad never told you that.

There's a reason Nasrallah called for Arabs to leave the towns. They want to kill Jews.

we all know how well arabs are treated in Israel, and how come towns with predominant arab populations in Israel don't have bomb shelters.

The predominant Arab populations do have bomb shelters, obviously, because those are the places getting targeted the hardest (Haifa etc.)

Besides, Hezbollah warned he's gonna strike North Israel. The civillians are responsible for their own death cuz they didn't leave (wasn't that Israel's argument for bombing civillians???)

Hezbollah is intentionally aiming rockets at civilian targets. Israel is targeting military targets who are hiding among civilians. What an asinine statement. I have a hard time believing you yourself even believe what you just wrote.

All violations of the Blue Line by Hebollah (except the kidnapping) were in the Chebaa farms. And since Israel claims it's syrian, then that's not israel's business anyway.

Even if that was true (a majority have been the Farms, not all), it becomes Israel's business when Hezbollah attacks Israel.