Israel appeared to have struck the site (U.N. observer post) deliberately.

[Tru Principle]

I bet the sex is good Edouble and Morris.. you are delusional.

 

[Morris]

^ Another fantastic argument and rebuttal. You make some really fine additions to these threads.

 

[Tru Principle]

Usta be my dogg, you was in my left titty

 

[Kareem]

You guys need to stop equating Israel to Nazi Germany, this is nowhere near the actions of Hitler.

There are people in here that are too one-sided, you guys need to see both sides of this conflict

How are we one sided? I've never said Israel doesnt have the right to self defense. Theres a difference between self defense an the senseless slaughter of innocent people, everyone understands in war there will be civilain casualties. Israel seems to not care nor take any precautions in ensuring the cilivilan population is as protected as much as possible. Dropping leaflets an then hours later bombing the daylights outa the place hardly qualifies, destroying roads an airports which also serve a means to allow the civiliian population to leave also hardly qualifies. Now Israel says that was done to stop Hezabolla fighters from leaving or being resupplied, ok Hezabolla is an underground guerilla(sp) group good luck on stopping that one.

How is anyone wrong in comparing Nazi Germany to modern day Israel? Because palestinians arent being gassed? Nazi Germany was much more then jews being led to death camps an gas chambers. Their homes an rights were stripped from them. Palestinians have been displaced for over 60 years and had their basic human rights revoked. Not all Israels fault no, I blame Brittian an the U.N. for their blantant disregaurd of humanity, so because the European jews were wronged the Palestinians must now pay the price? Nazi Germany also had the tendency to attack countries under false pretense, creating mass propaganda to support their cause.Israel in many ways does the same thing as well as the Untied States Of Hypocricy. Im not an idiot WW2 history intrigues me an i have studied it well.


Those who say Israel does not share SOME of the same charactaristics as Nazi Germany did are the neo cons an zionists. I never said full out they are the same but they do share some of the same methods, ie displacements of a people, race laws, vigerous propaganda. Please let someone try an tell Israel doesnt have race laws PLEASE! Israels current laws are similair to the Jim Crow laws of the south. Arabs are second class citizens, Jews in Nazi Germany were second class citizens, stripped of voting rights, stripped of rights to own buisness or practice profession ie doctor, lawyer. Im not saying Israel takes it that far BUT Arabs are second class, to the best of my knowledge Israel is the only nation on earth which requires you to be a Jew to be a citizen. I have no quelm with anyone who supports Israel....... my quelm is with those thats blindly support meaning no matter what they condone everything Israel does and can never admit any wrong doing. Cnn and Israeli news agencies an so forth are far from non biased information sources, just as Al-Jezzra (sp). Thats all i gotta say about that!:laugh:

 

[Glockmatic]

How are we one sided? I've never said Israel doesnt have the right to self defense. Theres a difference between self defense an the senseless slaughter of innocent people, everyone understands in war there will be civilain casualties. Israel seems to not care nor take any precautions in ensuring the cilivilan population is as protected as much as possible. Dropping leaflets an then hours later bombing the daylights outa the place hardly qualifies, destroying roads an airports which also serve a means to allow the civiliian population to leave also hardly qualifies. Now Israel says that was done to stop Hezabolla fighters from leaving or being resupplied, ok Hezabolla is an underground guerilla(sp) group good luck on stopping that one.

If Israel wanted to level lebanon they could've done so weeks ago, but they chose not to. Why? Their war is on hezbollah not lebanon.

Hezbollah must have the most intricate underground network if they could transport rockets through there, but of course you need to factor in the distance between where their weapon cache is to the front lines, the underground tunnels is alittle far-fetched.

How is anyone wrong in comparing Nazi Germany to modern day Israel? Because palestinians arent being gassed? Nazi Germany was much more then jews being led to death camps an gas chambers. Their homes an rights were stripped from them. Palestinians have been displaced for over 60 years and had their basic human rights revoked. Not all Israels fault no, I blame Brittian an the U.N. for their blantant disregaurd of humanity, so because the European jews were wronged the Palestinians must now pay the price? Nazi Germany also had the tendency to attack countries under false pretense, creating mass propaganda to support their cause.Israel in many ways does the same thing as well as the Untied States Of Hypocricy. Im not an idiot WW2 history intrigues me an i have studied it well.

1) Jews were far less than second class citizens in Nazi Germany, they were garbage to the nazis.
2) Nazis spread propaganda about how evil the jews were and how they are the parasites of humanity
3) Nazis openly killed jews on the streets
4) Nazis wanted to exterminate the jews, the israelis don't want that to anyone
5) Nazis started wars unprovoked, the israelis don't

Those who say Israel does not share SOME of the same charactaristics as Nazi Germany did are the neo cons an zionists.

Hezbollah shares the same characteristics. Launching rockets into cities much like the nazis launched V1 and V2 rockets into london. Calling for the destruction of israel and not caring is israelis die in attacks (i believe last week 2 arab israeli children were killed in a rocket attack, hezbollah only apologized for those 2 children and not 8 israelis killed at a train station attack).

to the best of my knowledge Israel is the only nation on earth which requires you to be a Jew to be a citizen.

"A person 18 years of age or older may acquire Israeli nationality by naturalization if he meets these criteria: (1) is currently in Israel, (2) has been in Israel for 3 of the 5 preceding years, (3) intends to settle in the country (4) has some knowledge of Hebrew (former Palestinian citizens are exempt from this provision), (5) renounces any and all foreign nationalities, and (6) takes an oath of loyalty to the State of Israel. Completion of all of the above requirements is not essential in all instances, however, as the Minister of the Interior at his discretion has the power (for a special reason) to waive requirements (1), (2),(4), and (5) above."

I have no quelm with anyone who supports Israel....... my quelm is with those thats blindly support meaning no matter what they condone everything Israel does and can never admit any wrong doing. Cnn and Israeli news agencies an so forth are far from non biased information sources, just as Al-Jezzra (sp). Thats all i gotta say about that!

and my quelm is with those who blindly support hezbollah. Personally i care little for the middle east crap thats going on

 

[Flipmo]

Syria seem to be on high alert now.

 

[Kareem]

If Israel wanted to level lebanon they could've done so weeks ago, but they chose not to. Why? Their war is on hezbollah not lebanon.

Hezbollah must have the most intricate underground network if they could transport rockets through there, but of course you need to factor in the distance between where their weapon cache is to the front lines, the underground tunnels is alittle far-fetched.



1) Jews were far less than second class citizens in Nazi Germany, they were garbage to the nazis.
2) Nazis spread propaganda about how evil the jews were and how they are the parasites of humanity
3) Nazis openly killed jews on the streets
4) Nazis wanted to exterminate the jews, the israelis don't want that to anyone
5) Nazis started wars unprovoked, the israelis don't



Hezbollah shares the same characteristics. Launching rockets into cities much like the nazis launched V1 and V2 rockets into london. Calling for the destruction of israel and not caring is israelis die in attacks (i believe last week 2 arab israeli children were killed in a rocket attack, hezbollah only apologized for those 2 children and not 8 israelis killed at a train station attack).



"A person 18 years of age or older may acquire Israeli nationality by naturalization if he meets these criteria: (1) is currently in Israel, (2) has been in Israel for 3 of the 5 preceding years, (3) intends to settle in the country (4) has some knowledge of Hebrew (former Palestinian citizens are exempt from this provision), (5) renounces any and all foreign nationalities, and (6) takes an oath of loyalty to the State of Israel. Completion of all of the above requirements is not essential in all instances, however, as the Minister of the Interior at his discretion has the power (for a special reason) to waive requirements (1), (2),(4), and (5) above."



and my quelm is with those who blindly support hezbollah. Personally i care little for the middle east crap thats going on

Glock, Never once did i say i supported nor condoned what Hamas, Hezabolla, Islamic Jihad an yadda yadda do, lets get that out of the way first.

Second nazi's used to kill jews in the street in broad daylight this is correct, so you telling me the IDF nor any Israeli has done the same?



this palestinian boy was shot by IDF soldiers intentionally, AP later erased the footage covering up the incident. So show me the difference now? Im sure somehow Morris or you will say it was justified, whenever its Isreal its always justified somehow.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Great site, im sure somehow its "biased" but hell if you two can quote Israeli media an Cnn, fox an such then this isnt anymore biased then any of those. This site also includes statistcs taken directly from Israeli media by the way. as far as hate being tought in Palestinian schools it happens in Israeli schools as well, below is a link to two reports one from 1999 by the washington post and another from a Jewish website even saying that arabs have recieved a bad image in their text books.

first one http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html

second http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/21480/format/html/displaystory.html

anyway im out peace

Holy shit sorry about the big ass picture it wasnt that big on the site!




EDIT: Picture removed due to massiveness. Duke.

 

[TecK NeeX]

Even if no Hezbollah fighter was killed in that airstrike, and there's no way of 100% proving it, that doesn't mean Hezbollah wasn't using the area to fire missiles. Also, Hezbollah uses residential buildings and mosques to store their missiles, launchers and other weaponry, intentionally making military targets out of noncombatant zones (we've seen the same tactics in Iraq and Afghanistan).

Yes it does mean that hizbollah wasn't using that area to fire Missiles. I read the Attack on Qana took place just minutes after these imaginary rockets were fired from that area. Which leads one to believe that these rockets, launchers and fighters should be located among dozens of civilians killed, yet to this day no such findings.

That's not a fact. The IDF claims dozens of rockets were fired from Qana. We'll see what the probe says.

To date, Israel has not presented any evidence to show that Hezbollah was present in or around the building that was struck at the time of the attack. Thats fact.

If Israel didn't care about civilians, why drop leaflets and announce over loud speakers telling civilians to flee the towns before they're attacked? Israel dampened the possible effectiveness of its operations to allow civilians to get out.

Just because the Israeli military warned the civilians to leave the villages does not give it the right to blindly attack, It still must make every possible effort to target only genuine combatants. What you and the IDF are suggesting is that all Hamas and Hizbollah needs to do is `warn' all settlers to leave Israeli settlements and northern Israel and then be justified in targeting those who remained. Will that maket it ok for hizbollah and hamas to target civilians? I dont think so

Civilians have had several days to get out of southern Lebanon. If Israel wanted to indiscriminately slaughter civilians (and how does that make sense anyway because they're fighting Hezbollah, not the Lebanese?), how would there be an average of 30 casualties a day when an estimated 750,000 are refugees? Also, with a death toll set at 600-700, Hezbollah claims it's lost 35 fighers and Israel claims it's killed over 200 Hezbollah fighters. If you want to believe Hezbollah's count, go ahead, but I don't.

You really dont get it do you? Tens of thousands of civilians remain in villages in southern lebanon, despite IDF warnings to leave. the vast majority are unable to flee due to destroyed roads, a lack of gasoline, high taxi fares, sick relatives, or ongoing Israeli attacks. The sick and poor are those who mostly remain behind. Not every one is able to flee Morris, A couple of days just isnt enough.

We've been over this several times. Hezbollah knows that, even though they're responsible by law for damage done to human shields, the blame will be placed on Israel by most of the world (and most of the people in here). Thus, the best way to stop the Israeli offensive is to ensure as many civilian casualties as possible until the international community steps in and forces Israel to halt. We already saw the strike on Qana force Israel to halt attacks for a few hours.

Thats absolutely not true, Hizbollah Builds hospitals, schools, youth centers, spends millions of dollars on medicine for the sick each year, They give shelter to the homeless, If there is anything Hizbollah is responsible for its saving poor lives. Now you're gonna sit there and tell me they're using these same lives as human shields? get real morris this is nothing but israeli propoganda. period. Just a few days ago they bombed a Mosque under construction which was blamed for housing weapons etc, yet nothing was found in there. Pure lies

 

[TecK NeeX]

Qana/Sofia. "There are no Hezbollah activists in the village of Qana, Israel is bombarding civilian buildings and vehicles", Spanish journalist Monica Leiva, who is in the southern Lebanese village at the moment, told FOCUS News Agency.


“I am at the site of the bombarding at the moment. Here the people are still trying to pull the bodies out from under the ruins. At the moment they are trying to free the bodies of the children killed in the Israeli air raid. The bombarding continues.
What more can I say? Israel is firing at everything – buildings, roads, vehicles. It is practically impossible for the locals to leave the area, as there is no guarantee that they will not be fired at while trying to escape the war zone. The people are very scared. The air raids started during the night and continue. There are no Hezbollah activists in Qana. There are only civilians here,” the Spanish journalist said.

http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?catid=138&ch=0&newsid=93149

 

[Morris]

Yes it does mean that hizbollah wasn't using that area to fire Missiles. I read the Attack on Qana took place just minutes after these imaginary rockets were fired from that area. Which leads one to believe that these rockets, launchers and fighters should be located among dozens of civilians killed, yet to this day no such findings.

To date, Israel has not presented any evidence to show that Hezbollah was present in or around the building that was struck at the time of the attack. Thats fact.

I'm not sure how you expect Israeli investigators, or any Israeli period, to be able to simply walk into Qana at this moment. I'm not sure how one would identify the building's contents amongst the rubble either.

Just because the Israeli military warned the civilians to leave the villages does not give it the right to blindly attack, It still must make every possible effort to target only genuine combatants. What you and the IDF are suggesting is that all Hamas and Hizbollah needs to do is `warn' all settlers to leave Israeli settlements and northern Israel and then be justified in targeting those who remained. Will that maket it ok for hizbollah and hamas to target civilians? I dont think so

If Hezbollah is targeted by rockets being fired by Israelis from Haifa, then firing back at Haifa might be militarily justifiable. Hezbollah is intentionally aiming at civilian targets. Israel is aiming at military targets and infrastructure in a civilian zone. There's a critical difference.

Thats absolutely not true, Hizbollah Builds hospitals, schools, youth centers, spends millions of dollars on medicine for the sick each year, They give shelter to the homeless, If there is anything Hizbollah is responsible for its saving poor lives. Now you're gonna sit there and tell me they're using these same lives as human shields? get real morris this is nothing but israeli propoganda. period.

In this exact thread yesterday I posted a story from an Australian paper with pictures of Hezbollah operating by an apartment complex. The UN Humanitarian Head Jan Egeland called Hezbollah cowardly for bragging about civilian casualties and blending in with them. If the United Nations and Australian media are now Israeli propaganda, you and I are not living on the same planet.

Just a few days ago they bombed a Mosque under construction which was blamed for housing weapons etc, yet nothing was found in there. Pure lies

That "mosque" was a bunker 100 feet underground. Since when are mosques built 100 feet underground?

 

[TecK NeeX]

I'm not sure how you expect Israeli investigators, or any Israeli period, to be able to simply walk into Qana at this moment. I'm not sure how one would identify the building's contents amongst the rubble either.

Thats the problem with you, You wont accept anything any findings other than from Israeli investigaters. Reporters, human rights watch all kinds of groups from every part of the world have seen the area and have concluded that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of any kind of hizbollah activity was taking place in that area prior to the strike.

If Hezbollah is targeted by rockets being fired by Israelis from Haifa, then firing back at Haifa might be militarily justifiable. Hezbollah is intentionally aiming at civilian targets. Israel is aiming at military targets and infrastructure in a civilian zone. There's a critical difference.

Yes airports, Medical vehicles, busses, Bomb shelters are military targets. You've convinced me Morris

That "mosque" was a bunker 100 feet underground. Since when are mosques built 100 feet underground?

Just how exactly does Israel or you for that matter could possibly know that that target was a Bunker a hundred feet deep? I saw the building, I know mosques and if the building resembled anything its a mosque, with the dome top shape and all

"Hezbollah denies that any of its leaders or personnel were killed during the latest bombardment... in the southern suburb."

The statement added that the building targeted in the raid was a mosque under construction and not a bunker housing Hezbollah leaders."

Yes it was a bunker

 

[TecK NeeX]

This is your proof of hizbollah using civilians as human shields?


Prove to me that pic is of hizbollah. And really how is this any different than a Snapped photo of an israeli tank in a gaza or a west bank neighbourhood near residential buildings and then used as evidence of Israel using civilians as human shields?

There is no date on the photo, no location on the photo, it could have been taken anywhere at any time.

Bang, this is irrefutable evidence that Israel uses palestinians as human shields.

 

[Glockmatic]

Thats absolutely not true, Hizbollah Builds hospitals, schools, youth centers, spends millions of dollars on medicine for the sick each year, They give shelter to the homeless, If there is anything Hizbollah is responsible for its saving poor lives. Now you're gonna sit there and tell me they're using these same lives as human shields? get real morris this is nothing but israeli propoganda. period. Just a few days ago they bombed a Mosque under construction which was blamed for housing weapons etc, yet nothing was found in there. Pure lies

If Hezbollah wanted to help the Lebanese people they would've disarmed and became something like the Red Cross/Cresent. Being a militant organization doesn't help at all

 

[Duke]

Do you think a target can no longer be considered a military target if there's a noncombatant there? If Israel bombs a building storing missiles or launchers or launch pads, and there's a noncombatant in the building, is it irresponsible? Is it irresponsible if there are 5 noncombatants? 10? At what point do you consider it irresponsible?
And if you consider all of the above irresponsible, how exactly should Israel being fighting Hezbollah when Hezbollah is intentionally hiding behind civilians?

If Israeli civilians are being targeted and maimed by rockets being launched from a residential zone in Lebanon, it's Israel's responsibility to stop the rocket fire and protect its citizens.

Your stubborn refusal to admit to even a smidget of guilt drains me of all will to debate.


Look, Morry, I'm going to try to make this as simple as it sounds:


Israeli plane flies around.

It drops a bomb.

The bomb is the responsibility of the IAF. Not Hezbollah's, not Al-Aqsa's, not Tony Blair's, not Adolf Hitlers and certainly not the Teletubbies' responsibility.

To deny it is ludicrous. Yes, Hezbollah are assholes for sheltering in residential areas. And yes, Israel does indeed have a responsibility to protect it's own civilians and troops. There are many responsibilites and loyalties all around.


But that simply doesn't take away the fact that the bomb that got dropped came from an Israeli plane with an Israeli pilot in it that pushed the release button with his Israeli thumb. If you now claim that Israel does not need to take any responsibility for that, you're being a hypocritical bastard that refuses to see any side of the argument except your own.

 

[Sebastian]

^
In addition to Dukes comment:

Im actually thinking about deleting Morris posts, because it pisses me off reading his ignorant/stubborn shit over and over again.

 

[Morris]

Reporters, human rights watch all kinds of groups from every part of the world have seen the area and have concluded that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of any kind of hizbollah activity was taking place in that area prior to the strike.

There are videotapes of rockets being fired from Qana last week. ( http://youtube.com/watch?v=6ShCsJCVbgk&search=Qana rocket fire ) Over 100 rockets have been fired from Qana since the fighting started, responsible for the deaths of over a dozen Israelis.

The day of that Israeli strike, there were 140 rockets fired into Israel. It stands to reason that if rockets were being fired from Qana the week before, they were likely being fired from Qana again on that day.

But that simply doesn't take away the fact that the bomb that got dropped came from an Israeli plane with an Israeli pilot in it that pushed the release button with his Israeli thumb.

If Israel was to look at it from your viewpoint, they'd be saying that it's ok for Israeli civilians to be rocketed hundreds of times a day and maimed and killed, but they can't do anything about it because they might kill Lebanese civilians.

Israel's responsibility is for its own people. Every government is charged with the duty of protecting its citizens. There were 140 rockets fired on Sunday and less than half a dozen on Monday. It's Israel's job to quell the rocket fire. That is going to kill Lebanese civilians because Hezbollah is shooting at Israel from populated zones. By law, that makes Hezbollah responsible. If Israel is going to protect its own people, it has no choice but to take measures to stop the rocket fire. If you're going to consider Israel responsible for subsequent casualties caused by this reality, fine. If Israel's going to defend itself though, it's a necessity, regardless of who you want to blame.

In several responses in this thread I've asked you what your solution would be. So I'll ask again: if Hezbollah is going to use civilian zones to kill Israeli citizens, and you don't think Israel should fire back due to the risk posed to Lebanese civilians, what exactly should Israel do?

This is your proof of hizbollah using civilians as human shields? Prove to me that pic is of hizbollah.

I gave you a source right with the picture. You can read the link there. Here's another video of Hezbollah firing a rocket from directly behind a large building: ( http://youtube.com/watch?v=HUJ2XhiUn6Q&search=Qana rocket fire )

The suggestion that Hezbollah is not intentionally using the civilian population is simply incorrect.

"Hezbollah denies that any of its leaders or personnel were killed during the latest bombardment... in the southern suburb."

The statement added that the building targeted in the raid was a mosque under construction and not a bunker housing Hezbollah leaders."

Israel uses bunker buster bombs to destroy something 100 feet underground, claiming it was a bunker. Hezbollah claims it was a mosque under construction. It's apparent that Israel didn't get Hezbollah's leadership, like it originally thought. At the same time, since when are mosques built underground?

Also, how are you going to take Hezbollah's claims at face value and at the same time brush away sources I've cited, such as The Herald Sun (the Australian paper that published the pictures of Hezbollah operating in a residential zone) and United Nations Humanitarian Chief Jan Egeland (who called Hezbollah cowardly for blending into the civilian population and bragging about civilian deaths), as Israeli propaganda?

Im actually thinking about deleting Morris posts, because it pisses me off reading his ignorant/stubborn shit over and over again.

Nobody forces you to read a thing. Guess what message boards are for? They're for debate. How much sense does it make if we have people deleting something they disagree with on a message board? I used to be a moderator for the Death/Alive Theories Forum. If I took your stance, there would have been no forum.

A Words of Wisdom board with a moderator who deletes posts he disagrees with? What a joke. Grow up.

 

[Tru Principle]

So let me get this straight...


People choose building X as safest place in Village...
Building X is right next to a firing post for Hizballah...

Uggh... So... The people choose the safest place in the village to be right next to a firing post for Hizballah? And uggh.. even if it were true (which it isn't) ... the people would of certainly fled the area... and not stayed where Hizballah is firing...

You do not choose the safest place in the village where you harbor all the women and children in knowing and HEARING missiles go off right next door...

Israel LOST the military war... so now it wants to flex its muscles and MURDER innocent women and children. The Israeli army are little babies who are nothing but cowards... hiding in their tanks (which usually get blown to pieces) and their planes and their rubber ducky boats (which also have been proven vulnerable)...


Zionist Jews = Neo Nazis = Mass murderers = Cowards


edited: in honor of Morry.

 

[Morris]

^ There's something humorous about your rant against the Israeli forces and then you accidentally calling them venerable

Anyway, your cause and effect can very easily be flipped. Civilians can take shelter in a building, and then Hezbollah can use that building as cover, knowing an Israeli response comes within a few minutes at most.

As for reasons not everyone has fled, not everyone can flee (as Teck has pointed out), and there have been reports that I've cited in this thread about Hezbollah stopping civilians from fleeing as well.

 

[Tru Principle]

I understand ^

 

[Duke]

If Israel was to look at it from your viewpoint, they'd be saying that it's ok for Israeli civilians to be rocketed hundreds of times a day and maimed and killed, but they can't do anything about it because they might kill Lebanese civilians.

Israel's responsibility is for its own people. Every government is charged with the duty of protecting its citizens. There were 140 rockets fired on Sunday and less than half a dozen on Monday. It's Israel's job to quell the rocket fire. That is going to kill Lebanese civilians because Hezbollah is shooting at Israel from populated zones. By law, that makes Hezbollah responsible. If Israel is going to protect its own people, it has no choice but to take measures to stop the rocket fire. If you're going to consider Israel responsible for subsequent casualties caused by this reality, fine. If Israel's going to defend itself though, it's a necessity, regardless of who you want to blame.

In several responses in this thread I've asked you what your solution would be. So I'll ask again: if Hezbollah is going to use civilian zones to kill Israeli citizens, and you don't think Israel should fire back due to the risk posed to Lebanese civilians, what exactly should Israel do?

I never said Israel shouldn't defend itself. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying that because Israel is the one dropping the bombs, they also have to take a share of the responsibility. I mean, how hard is this to understand?