hey masta

[S O F I]

what is your opinion on this whole accusations of racism and anti-semitism fuckery? apparently BBC aired a few negative documentaries about poland's and ukraine's treatment of foreigners and blacks and now it's being reported that a lot of people are being told to not go see the games. some articles are saying that poland is not as backward ( ) as it's been reported lately.

 

[Ristol]

Nobody on this board has any problem with racism, antisemitism, or fuckery.

 

[Pittsey]

Nobody on this board has any problem with racism, antisemitism, or fuckery.

A few quips on a message board isn't comparable with beating someone because of their colour or race.... I also don't think we should all be judged on what Coonie says or does.

 

[Kobe]

what is your opinion on this whole accusations of racism and anti-semitism fuckery? apparently BBC aired a few negative documentaries about poland's and ukraine's treatment of foreigners and blacks and now it's being reported that a lot of people are being told to not go see the games. some articles are saying that poland is not as backward ( ) as it's been reported lately.

I watched the Panorama documentary.

I did expect it to be the usual slant that takes place before such tournaments, but it was fairly balanced from a journalistic perspective. From what the documentary showed, there are specific racial groups that are targeted. I think anyone that is in these racial groups, should really avoid going to the stadiums. At least I know I wouldn't bother. Why would anyone want to be in an environment where fans just watch you get attacked because of your skin color, and they don't do anything to intervene?

As much as everything was caught on tape, there were still denials of what was going on in the images. In addition, I don't think UEFA have done much on the racism matter so really, f!@k em all.

Not to say that the documentary is in any way a reflection of the Ukraine and Poland as a whole. This was particularly about football fans and the documentary made it clear. Racism really is a backward ideology considering the times we live in. So, it does give credence to the thought that even though one is well educated, sometimes it doesn't mean the individual is smart.

Nobody on this board has any problem with racism, antisemitism, or fuckery.

Actually, I've complained twice about specific racist posts on this board, but nothing has been done about either of them.

 

[masta247]

what is your opinion on this whole accusations of racism and anti-semitism fuckery? apparently BBC aired a few negative documentaries about poland's and ukraine's treatment of foreigners and blacks and now it's being reported that a lot of people are being told to not go see the games. some articles are saying that poland is not as backward ( ) as it's been reported lately.

Some Poles are a bit racist and we have a lot of jocks who'd beat anyone for any reason, and if it's a foreigner that's even better. Most people don't mind the foreigners though. If they do they won't do anything about it.
I'm not sure where those accusations came from - we never had a lot of foreigners, especially blacks here and if there are those people - they mostly come to big cities in really small numbers. Travelling through the city centre every day I see a person that looks like a foreigner perhaps once a month or two, and that might be part of the reason - they clearly stand out to many people.

I've heard of cases where jocks or nationalists would beat up a black person in a park for walking with a Polish girl and.. I can see that happening here but to be fair these are single cases. 99.9% of people wouldn't mind at all.
Also while that sometimes might be the case with blacks I have friends who are Japanese and none of them had any problems, ever. Soemtimes people are more interested to see them and ask a lot of questions but that's rather positive.
I suppose that's also the case for 99.999% of foreigners who don't act like idiots. If you're british, spanish or french (I suppose almost everyone here would consider them 'neutral' by default) and start acting like an idiot, getting drunk and screaming stupid things you might get beat up.

Also honestly I'd be more afraid of the Ukrainians. Some Polish people are afraid to go to Ukraine because people there aren't as "civilized" if it comes to foreigners but again, that's just what I've heard. Also it's important to note that most of that "anti-Euro" crap started with things they were doing in Ukraine, since that's where the really creepy shit goes on. Jailing Tymoshenko, murdering animals etc. etc.

Anyway if it comes to the BBC documentary I've heard that our national TV disagreed and sent an official letter to BBC saying that it's load of crap. Most people still don't care and the fact that you brought that up means that people abroad care about it more than people here.

btw. I really dislike everything that's happening here because of the Euro. Everything is about football now.

 

[masta247]

Oh and with anti-semitism.. It's a bit annoying. Now that German bitch is trolling and people are really pissed big time.

 

[Prize Gotti]

^ What about Krakow? Isn't that city divided up between neo nazis and right wing nationalist?

 

[masta247]

Lol. I think the documentary was really funny. Krakow is really a nice city, with people who mostly take pride in having a beautiful city, some of the nicest public universities and being highly cultured. There are 2 football clubs there and there's a worse neighborhood that is a reminder of soviet times and it's less safe, it's also home to 2 local football club hooligans. Sort of like Compton in California. It's not like people kick the shit out of each other there all the time, but it happens if you admit that you're a Wisla fan and there's a group of not-so-friendly Cracovia hooligans asking . The funniest thing is that I've never heard of such thing as a neo nazi in Poland We have some right wing nationalists but they're not really that dangerous - mostly disrupting gay parades and doing politics to eliminate German minorities (political party).

 

[S O F I]

Most people still don't care and the fact that you brought that up means that people abroad care about it more than people here.

yeah, but that's the problem, right? you might not personally care but if tourism doesn't make up investment, it'll look really bad.

 

[Pittsey]

The Dutch have now claimed they were racially abused in Krakow last night...

 

[masta247]

yeah, but that's the problem, right? you might not personally care but if tourism doesn't make up investment, it'll look really bad.

It's not like I personally don't care. I think I care more than an average person here, because I dislike some things about the Polish culture that imho are bad, and we have some people who do silly things in the name of silly beliefs.
It's just that this particular issue seems to be hyped abroad, but not really here. The media are quiet about it, it was brought on the news once but that's it.

The Dutch have now claimed they were racially abused in Krakow last night...

I didn't know but I can see incidents like those happening. There are all kinds of people here, and some fans might have had bad luck.

Actually if they were vocal about their team, yeah, I can see that happening. The Polish people learned to fight for their country the hard way and some tend to be "patriotic" like that - I can see some drunk, low-class Polish people reacting with their fists to things like "our team/country is better" etc. That's even what I saw on TV today - a Greek guy said that their team is better and that they're going to win and a bunch of Poles from backwood villages started to have some problems with him. Things like those are going to happen.
Even Poles who are acting loud on the streets might become victims to certain groups of people here and it's not related to racism - someone might not like something that you said.

What can I say, we have people called "Dresiarz" that foreigners should aviod. It's not like they're racist, they just punch the shit out of people for any reason. It's our variation of chavs, but they're more eager to fight. Those guys:



 

[Pittsey]

The English have evolved and worked really hard to remove a lot of the hooliganism from our support. In the 70s we were untouchable.... But now we tend to do pretty well, apart from the odd hiccup.

I forget how backwards some people are. We have enough morons in the UK, but the immigrants that come in from Eastern Europe seem even more moronic than our homegrown chavs.

 

[masta247]

I know. Our hooligans were always compared to the English ones. We also tried by introducing "fan cards" which is like a fan ID and it's better these days, but most brawls start outside of the stadium.

We have morons. But it's not like most of them are stupid per se, they are aggressive and like to fight. It's a shame that there's a really tiny group of people giving us such a bad name. I don't like these people perhaps even more, since I get to see them regularly almost every time I go out in the evenings.
The Greeks are apparently very happy after today's match though. Most of those that they show on TV have positive opinions about those Polish people that they met.

 

[Pittsey]

It was a good match. Poor refereeing. But entertaining.

 

[masta247]

Well, the Polish team sucked during the second half. It was entertaining indeed though.

 

[Flipmo]

Got back from Cuba today, watched the Poland / Greece match at one of the bars before I left for the airport. Lots of people from England were watching the game as well. The hate that the English have for the Poles is mind-blowing - continuously repeating that the Polish keep taking all the jobs, etc.

 

[Pittsey]

Got back from Cuba today, watched the Poland / Greece match at one of the bars before I left for the airport. Lots of people from England were watching the game as well. The hate that the English have for the Poles is mind-blowing - continuously repeating that the Polish keep taking all the jobs, etc.

That's crazy. Not all English feel that way. They must have been moron manual workers. Usually it is tradesmen that feel that way. Shit ones. As I know builders who are earning more than ever in this recession, and they don't hate the Poles.

I did however find myself cheering for Greece in the end. Because they were the underdogs.

 

[Flipmo]

That's crazy. Not all English feel that way. They must have been moron manual workers. Usually it is tradesmen that feel that way. Shit ones. As I know builders who are earning more than ever in this recession, and they don't hate the Poles.

I did however find myself cheering for Greece in the end. Because they were the underdogs.

Yeah, I assumed they were blue-collared workers by the way they looked and talked. If it's like here, generally the jobs that fresh off the boat immigrants take are the ones that no one else wants to do. Either way...
I was with two of my Greek friends, so I supported them as well.

 

[masta247]

If it's like here, generally the jobs that fresh off the boat immigrants take are the ones that no one else wants to do.

Most Poles that go to England are so unqualified that there are no jobs for them here. It's their problem but it turns out that they're willing to do hard work in England once they get their opportunity. Also, for them it's quite a lot of money that they earn for it. That gives us a bad name but to be fair I think it's partly because unqualified English workers take their jobs for granted, thinking that they're too cool for low-level construction work and such and don't really do enough work for their money, and since employers hire Poles instead of the British it probably means that "unqualified" Poles do their jobs well enough. At least that's how I can defend those Poles, because in this case they're not doing anything wrong.

From a wider perspective it was to be expected that with the European union and open borders the value for work done was about to change - closer to what that work is really worth, because the supply of all kinds of workers is bigger now. Funny but at some point it becomes an annoyance that people from the US take high salary jobs - especially management. It happens in a lot of European companies yet nobody complains. It's the same thing though - there's someone willing to do that specific job better for the money he gets. Since the borders are open it happens on an international scale. I think it promotes fair salaries for your skills and work input and those who complain the most are those who used to take advantage of the past system.

On another hand I can see why those English people are pissed. We have people from Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Vietnam and now even China doing the same thing. Almost every charlady here is from Ukraine and low-salary builders are more often than ever from China. It affects some people here and they're pissed that people "from the outside" are disrupting our labor market.
I noticed that those people from abroad often do amazing job compared to Poles who often got lazy and inefficient thinking that for their money they don't have to work hard.

The Netherlands vs Denmark match was nice to watch. Still, I'm the most impressed with Russians.

 

[Pittsey]

Most Poles that go to England are so unqualified that there are no jobs for them here. It's their problem but it turns out that they're willing to do hard work in England once they get their opportunity. Also, for them it's quite a lot of money that they earn for it. That gives us a bad name but to be fair I think it's partly because unqualified English workers take their jobs for granted, thinking that they're too cool for low-level construction work and such and don't really do enough work for their money, and since employers hire Poles instead of the British it probably means that "unqualified" Poles do their jobs well enough. At least that's how I can defend those Poles, because in this case they're not doing anything wrong.

.

It's because they work for less than minimum wage. English people can't afford to do this as they prefer not to have 12 other people living in a 2 bedroom apartment with them. The Polish people (and other nationalities) that come here to work, appear to be willing to do this. I have seen the inside of some of these places. Animals. There is no understanding of hygiene. I presume a lot of them are gypsies.

English people also prefer to work to live, not to live for work. Some might call it laziness. But I prefer to work as little as possible myself. I call it working smart. Anyway.... My office cleaner works from 5am until 3pm, cleaning. He then works in the evenings gardening. He is a fucking hard worker. He sends a lot of money back to Poland, but due to our social system he also gets a lot of benefits, including child support for children who have never set foot in England. Madness.

I am not up to speed on economics, but I can't believe the current model is sustainable. We pay far too much in tax, and the higher earners aren't contributing at all. England also relies heavily on this fake financial model to keep us going. Without investment banks we have very little income. Unless we start turning our hand to manufacturing and invention, like we excelled at a few hundred years ago, we have a weak future. *Looks at Germany for inspiration.

_ I was cheering for the Danes. I like an underdog. The England team being my favourite underdog, obviously.