duke, with the bigger engines its not always the case. the m3s new v8 is barely heavier than the I6 it replaced. another example is the m5s v10 being lighter than the last gens v8. it all depends on the material made. because an aluminum v8 is pretty light compared to iron block 6 cylinders and even some iron block 4 cylinders. bigger engines isnt that big of a deal if you make them light. the supras engine 2jzgte for example weighs like 550lbs, with the 6spd v160 trans on it the weight is almost 800lbs. why? cause its an iron block I6. an LS aluminum V8 engine with trans weighs less than the entire 2jz alone(without the trans). so displacement isnt the reason. its the material. they swap V8s in RX7s for a reason. the v8 weighs a little more than the rotary (like 80lbs iirc), but the weight sits back farther in the car and gives it the true 50/50 weight distribution.
Duke, can we talk about the RS6?
- Thread starter Gandoo
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But the thing is, iron blocks are the way to go for people who want to go big with modding. Yes, iron blocks are heavier, but they can put up with a shitload of extra power far above and beyond stock levels. Aluminum blocks tend to have smaller limits with power before you need to reinforce it or change it.
It's hard to say, since everything is based on various publications' first impressions. But if I had to answer, I'd say that I'm not a big fan of it. Granted they switched from a cast-iron block in the E46 M3 to an aluminum block in this new M3 to save weight--which it does--aftermarket tuning will be somewhat limited, though whether or not that's true is yet to be seen. Regardless, the numbers it puts out just aren't impressive. 420 hp is sweet no matter what, but consider that the Audi RS4 has had that same horsepower but more torque over a more usable rev range. And to make matters worse, the upcoming C63 AMG already bitchslaps the M3 not just in horsepower, but by torque, and in a MAJOR way. But it doesn't end there--the 6.2-liter V-8 in the C63 is quite detuned so it doesn't pose a huge threat to the more expensive 63s in the lineup (which have as much as 518 hp in factory trim), though the rest of the power should easily be exploited with a re-tuned ECU. Plus, the new C63 is said to be a cornering monster, even with the automatic transmission, which most publications say seems just as good as any other paddle-shifting transmission (F1, DSG, etc.). And supposedly AMG has been testing their V-8 with forced induction, so its block should be really sturdy, whereas the M3 is questionable at this point, especially since BMW's M division tends to stay away from forced induction, so they probably aren't trying to make it strong enough to withstand insane power increases.
But in stock form, I'm sure it's not a bad motor, though it'll be a lot like the high-revving S2000 engine that you have to put to work to get it to run like you want it.
But in stock form, I'm sure it's not a bad motor, though it'll be a lot like the high-revving S2000 engine that you have to put to work to get it to run like you want it.
I wasn't really talking about that but I'll speak on it a little. The RS4 gets 420 (at 8250) out of a 4.2 litre why'll the BMW does practically the same out of a 4.0 (at 8400) that weighs way less. BMW got Audi I believe, engine wise at least. I don't even like comparing a 6.2 litre engine to a 4.0 or 4.2.
What I was really talking about in a not so obvious way is the silicon aluminum alloy (it's "special" cus of the amount of silicon in it, shit is weird) they use and then how they use the iron coated pistons and then the cylinders being lined with silicon crystals or whatever they were. It's not all new cus I'm pretty sure most of it is used with their F1 engines but to be in the M3 I think is pretty tight. I think they will have a better version of the car coming out also, so, wooo.
What I was really talking about in a not so obvious way is the silicon aluminum alloy (it's "special" cus of the amount of silicon in it, shit is weird) they use and then how they use the iron coated pistons and then the cylinders being lined with silicon crystals or whatever they were. It's not all new cus I'm pretty sure most of it is used with their F1 engines but to be in the M3 I think is pretty tight. I think they will have a better version of the car coming out also, so, wooo.
trust me i know. supras and 03 cobras have iron blocks and can make 900rwhp on the stock block with no sweat. but if youre keeping the cars stock having an aluminum block helps. if youre going to mod an aluminum block for alot of horsepower, youre going to have to resleeve it, but it can be just as reliable as long as its done right. evos iron blocks can also make 600whp safely (anything above that is a risk). however your guys will need to think it over with the new evos since theyre aluminum blocks
the m3s v8 is pretty potent. it puts out its peak torque of 295lb ft at 3800rpms. which is pretty good considering it has the smallest engine of the bunch. 4.0 vs 4.2 and 6.2. and if its anywhere as efficient as the inline 6s itll get better gas mileage than the rest, probably around 25mpg on highway.
From an engineering standpoint, the M3 definitely shines, since it's squeezing all that power from just a 4.0-liter V-8. I've always applauded BMW for their reluctance to go bigger with displacement, but at the end of the day, engineering only gets you so far. It boils down to solid performance numbers, and the M3 will get stumped by the C63.
The cylinders have low-friction Nikasil lining, which is some pretty interesting stuff. A few other new high-performance engines use it. But of course this type of technology and material would make it into the M3, especially since it's already in the M5's V-10.
It's impressive when considering it puts that out with such little displacement, but it's going to have a hard time hanging with its competitors without a doubt. But engines aside, BMW should be scared, since preliminary test drives have testers favoring the old M3 over this one, plus with the C63 getting some of the suspension components of the CLK63 Black Series, it's a cornering monster for what it is.
It's actually 33 pounds lighter.
Man the C63 is something else. Beautiful car. But owning that would make me feel like it ain't trying as hard. It has pretty much the same 6.3 litre AMG engine fitted in almost everything else but then you get this. 6.2 litres of great engine putting out 450 Hp. That doesn't sound right. The one thing that does shine and put it ahead is it's equal amount of torque. It screams domestic science, big engines big numbers, no engingeering. I guess engineering is something I like, to know my car is head to head with the competition with less. But whatever in the end though if I had the money to throw around I would probably buy the CHEAPER(amazed me) C63.
But yeah, from the reviews I've read the M3 has lost it's edge. But I was excited to read in one of em, I think Automobile, that BMW knows this that's why they are gonna put out a sportier version I guess you would say. Should be tight.
On the contrary. The AMG 6.2-liter V-8 is actually a well-engineered engine, despite it not having the magical 100+ hp/liter ratio that we tend to associate with a kickass motor. Fully variable valve timing, 4 valves per cylinder, two-stage intake manifolds, friction-reducing TWAS cylinder coating, 11.3:1 compression ratio and a racecar-style crankcase with closed-deck bedplate sounds high-tech to me. Like I said before, this engine, particularly in the case of the C63, is nowhere near being maxed out from the factory. The exact same motor puts out ~520 hp in the higher end Benzes (CL63 and S63). I'm very sure it still has a lot more potential that can be easily exploted. I distinctly remember reading in AutoWeek that their drivers tested a prototype CLK63 with the motor tuned to "500 hp" (according to AMG engineers), though the drivers said that they could've sworn the one they were driving had a lot more... they said it felt more like 580. AMG is probably just keeping them corked up just enough to edge out their BMW counterparts in the horsepower department while buttraping them with torque.
New BMW's are butt ugly anyway. I'd never buy a new M now. Rather have an old M5 and tune it. The whole old idea of these dirt fast, normal looking cars are fucked over by the manufacturers. These days, even my grandmother can recognise an S Audi. Debadge ftw.
And on the weight issue, I didnt specifically mean that engines itself get heavier (they do, but maybe not the particular cars in this thread) but the cars as a whole. New M beamer tips the scale at 1560, old one weighed in at 1470. New S4 is heavier than the old one by 100kg. New Supras, Skylines are going to be heavier. The Evo has been putting on weight as well since 4th gen and off with my nuts if gen. X is going to be a tad heavier than IX again.
All because the standard car the mind bending performance is based on is getting heavier every year. More gadgets, more luxury, more safety. It doesn't help performance.
I'm buying a Caterham.
And on the weight issue, I didnt specifically mean that engines itself get heavier (they do, but maybe not the particular cars in this thread) but the cars as a whole. New M beamer tips the scale at 1560, old one weighed in at 1470. New S4 is heavier than the old one by 100kg. New Supras, Skylines are going to be heavier. The Evo has been putting on weight as well since 4th gen and off with my nuts if gen. X is going to be a tad heavier than IX again.
All because the standard car the mind bending performance is based on is getting heavier every year. More gadgets, more luxury, more safety. It doesn't help performance.
I'm buying a Caterham.
Have fun surviving an accident in a Caterham though.
Regarding the Evo X being heavier, yes it is and yes it sucks, but it's for a reason. Evos haven't always been the greatest cars to be driving in the event of an accident, so they're just getting up-to-date with safety features. Also, Evos have typically been pretty bare-bones compared to its competitors--which some people like, since it does save weight... personally, it doesn't bother me, I don't mind having less sound deadening and no automatic climate control or navigation system or whatever. But it's not like all the other cars that have all this extra weight in stuff you don't necessarily need or enjoy, whereas the Evo's weight is mostly in the kickass AWD system and engine (which already has a lot of weight-saving measures), while a Lexus has tons of leather upholstery (nice, but I've had it in two vehicles before and can live without it), power sunroof (I've had it in three vehicles before and can live without it, I've got windows), wood trim (not in this car), A/C routed throughout the car (fuck the rear passengers, they're lucky they get power windows), self-parallel parking (cool but I can do it myself and everyone else should), etc.
True, but you begin to see it extending into the luxury performance market as well. And those cars were heavy to begin with, you know. I'm starting to lose the point to a car that has power like the Hulk but weighs the same as Australia. Unless traversing the motorways at 150 mph is your everyday thing, if you want a driving car you can pretty much scrap any of those barges, even if they've been "beefed up". Nowadays they're still getting by, but as you come nearer to the 2 tonnes mark, it's getting more and more senseless.
But anyway, maybe I'm being cynical.
^ You bring up a good point that I definitely agree with. It definitely applies more so to the luxury cars. Car companies just need to start thinking lighter rather than thinking bigger engine. I was actually happy when I read about a concept car that BMW made that kept the M3's I-6 engine but in a lightweight body (less than 3000 lbs.), which is where I think cars should go, since it will create even better performance and greater fuel efficiency rather than having a heavier car with a bigger engine that gets the car to 60 mph in the same speed as the lighter predecessor but using more gas, all for the sake of coping with the extra weight of more wood interior and heavier 14-way adjustable seats.
The downside is that while keeping things up-to-date with all of the standard creature comforts but getting lighter might cost a bit. It would require use of lighter materials (probably aluminum), which would cost more than steel, so doing so would cost extra. And then there are always materials like carbon fiber and magnesium, but those are far more expensive and reserved for much sportier applications, or at least tiny parts of certain cars. In my case specifically, I know that aluminum is used for the hood, front fenders, roof, forged wheels, door crash beams and suspension components (control arms, etc.) while the valve cover is made of magnesium. All in all, it probably saves 50 pounds or so.
The downside is that while keeping things up-to-date with all of the standard creature comforts but getting lighter might cost a bit. It would require use of lighter materials (probably aluminum), which would cost more than steel, so doing so would cost extra. And then there are always materials like carbon fiber and magnesium, but those are far more expensive and reserved for much sportier applications, or at least tiny parts of certain cars. In my case specifically, I know that aluminum is used for the hood, front fenders, roof, forged wheels, door crash beams and suspension components (control arms, etc.) while the valve cover is made of magnesium. All in all, it probably saves 50 pounds or so.
True, cost is definitely an issue. But for the type of market we're talking about here it's certainly the direction that has to be taken. Especially with performance cars, where the cost-performance increase tradeoff is more beneficial compared to normal A-to-B cars.
weight saving shouldnt matter as much on luxury sedan and coupes as much as sports cars. example is the bmw m3. its a luxury sports car. sports being what comes first. so i can understand why it would need to be lightened. but on a bmw m5, it shouldnt matter cause its a sports luxury car. a car that shouldnt matter if its lightened. its priority is to make the driver feel comfortable. being the lightest is the last thing you should care about. and just to save that 100lbs you might have to pay another 10k which is moving the market of the vehicle upward without even adding options.
I'm not advocating active weight saving on the luxo-barges, I'm saying that as they get a smidget heavier every generation, 10 or 15 years from now the new M5 will weigh 2039 kilograms if this trend continues. And when cars start weighing that much it becomes less and less meaningful to try and make them into "sports luxury" cars. I don't care how you set your suspension set up or how cutting edge the chassis is, a car that weighs that much is bound to be a pudding through any type of corner really. So they need to start looking hard into giving newer models
less weight increase. I don't think it'll matter much if cars like E AMG's or M5's becomes so weighty that they wont handle anymore, because we all know they're mostly bought by rich fucks that can't really drive, anyway, and just want bragging rights and something fast on the motorway. They usually fold themselves around a lamp post if they decide to play. The market won't really suffer, I think, but the cars themselves won't get any better.
Sports luxury car is a contradictio in terminus, anyway. Sports demands lightweight, nippy handling, contact with the road, driving experience, feel for the car. Luxury demands leather, wood, creature comforts, a smooth ride, preferably no noise etc. Those two camps do not go hand in hand. Any type of car in such a segment will always be a much compromised machine. Comfort or handling? Feel or quiet?
Can't have your cake and eat it as well.
exactly why i said sport luxury and luxury sport. a luxury sport m3 means sport comes before the luxury. its a performer before its a cruiser. a sport luxury m5 is a cruiser before its a performer. its always gonna be a pig because its a cruiser before its a performer. its just a cruiser with some performance abilities, not the best but impressive considering the car is built for luxury.
I disagree. I see what you mean, and you're right to an extent. Cars like the BMW 5-Series should be comfortable and pamper its drivers, but the M5 is without a question a high-performance sedan. I'm not saying it should be stripped out, but I'm sure it could have performance-oriented interior bits that are still somewhat luxurious. For example, the Mercedes CLK63 Black Series has sports bucket seats, which are very performance-oriented but still very nice-looking, and I bet they're a lot more comfortable than my bucket seats. At the same time, I'm sure it's lighter than the 14-way power adjustable massaging and heated/cooled seats in other cars. (As a side note, the European CLK63 Black Series has carbon-fiber buckets while its American counterpart has electric leather buckets, though I'm sure they're still also lighter than regular power seats.) Drivers shouldn't feel like they're at a massage parlor in their cars, at least not in performance cars. Making cars like these more focused on performance and less focused on massaging people's vaginas will definitely make it edgier and separate the real enthusiasts with money from rich people who buy the AMG/M models just because they can and because they are accustomed to buying the top-of-the-line models or because they're a better "investment" due to its resale values. I'm really disgusted at seeing all these rich housewives driving around in AMG and M cars when they can't even park a car straight in a parking spot.
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