11/12 Premier League thread

[THEV1LL4N]

i cant believe it!!!!!!!!! carlos cuellar gets sent of for a challenge that never made contact with the player. so that is supposedly the equivalent of or classed as the same as everton's number 7's foul (russian player/goalscorer) who went in two-footed quite aggressively, making contact and could end a player's season/career!!!!!!!!

 

[Bobby Sands]

^^i know. its ridiulous. There was nothing wrong with Cuellar's tackle. He shouldnt have been booked for either incident. There was a similar incident in the Arsenal game where one of the arsenal players tackled Corluka and clearly won the ball. The referee gave a free and a booking. In the Ireland game against Montenegro, Rowlands put in a great hard tackle on one of the montenegro players. It was a hard tackle but he clearly won the ball. The ref gave a free. There have been loads of incidents like this recently.

It seems like they want to take tackling out of football. Maybe they'll ban it altogether. Its great to see a defender going in hard with a tackle as long as its fair.

 

[2Pax]

So if Man Utd couldnt beat them with a better team last season, i doubt they would beat them right now with 5 or 6 of their first team out including their best player missing. Your squad must not be all that either considering we beat you last week and our supposedly average midfield bossed yours. oh wait i forgot the greatest midfielder in the world was missing-Darren Fletcher :unsure:. And his absence was also the reason your midfield got absolutely raped in the Champions League final by Xavi and co last May. That has actually been suggested by certain pundits and Man Utd fans.

.

That's a bit of a knee jerk reaction, Our midfield with Anderson bossed Gerrard and Fabregas last season yet I wouldn't say he's a better player.

As for Fletcher he is now an integral part of our team and is a first choice player IMO. He's got to be one of the most if not the most improved player in European football. Having said that though I don't know if he woulda made a difference in Rome as Xavi and Iniesta were simply awesome.

 

[Bobby Sands]

^^no he would have made little difference against Barcelona in that game because he is simply not that good of a player but some of your supporters and some pundits i have heard seem to think that Man Utd would have won that match if Fletcher was playing. that is just ridiculous. Im not saying Fletcher is a poor player either btw

There is nothing knee jerk about what i said. Ive had this opinion of Man Utd's central midfield since last season. it is the weakest position they have imo.Last season they had a great defense and attack but were weak in central midfield. Carrick, Anderson and Fletcher are nothing special and Scholes is well past it. Our central midfield of Mascherano and Lucas won that battle hands down last week.

Dunno where you are getting this Anderson bossed Gerrard last season out of either because the only time Steven Gerrard played against Man Utd last season was when Liverpool won 4-1. He played very well in that game. maybe you meant some other game? and besides Gerrard wasnt playing in central midfield.

 

[2Pax]

^^no he would have made little difference against Barcelona in that game because he is simply not that good of a player but some of your supporters and some pundits i have heard seem to think that Man Utd would have won that match if Fletcher was playing. that is just ridiculous. Im not saying Fletcher is a poor player either btw

We could have, I doubt it though, no point living in the land of speculation.

There is nothing knee jerk about what i said. Ive had this opinion of Man Utd's central midfield since last season. it is the weakest position they have imo.Last season they had a great defense and attack but were weak in central midfield. Carrick, Anderson and Fletcher are nothing special and Scholes is well past it. Our central midfield of Mascherano and Lucas won that battle hands down last week.

To be honest we're lacking real quality all over the midfield at the minute, central and wing wise. I thought Carrick was good last year but he hasn't even come close to rediscovering that form again.

Dunno where you are getting this Anderson bossed Gerrard last season out of either because the only time Steven Gerrard played against Man Utd last season was when Liverpool won 4-1. He played very well in that game. maybe you meant some other game? and besides Gerrard wasnt playing in central midfield.

I was actually referring to when Anderson and Hargreaves controlled things in our victory at Anfield in 2007, I didn't know it was almost two years ago until I looked it up, sorry.

 

[Bobby Sands]

^^So Fletcher is so good that he would have made that much difference? that is just nonsense. He is a decent player and nothing more. He would have been just another player for Xavi, Iniesta and Messi to run rings around in that game.

Carrick was good the season before last but i think he has been poor since.

didnt Ferguson and himself have a row after the champions league final last season?

 

[hizzle?]

oh on facebook? yeah that was sarcasm. I think that I said that at this point, I'd rather see Sven Goran on the bench than Rafa. either that or that even sven goran would do a better job.

 

[2Pax]

^^So Fletcher is so good that he would have made that much difference? that is just nonsense. He is a decent player and nothing more. He would have been just another player for Xavi, Iniesta and Messi to run rings around in that game.

No, I never said we would've won had Fletcher played. I meant we would have played differently. I doubt any team Fergie put out that day would have won.

Carrick was good the season before last but i think he has been poor since.

didnt Ferguson and himself have a row after the champions league final last season?

It was rumoured. Also towards the start of the season Carrick was suddenly benched for a while for no apparent reason and when Fergie was asked why he said "you'll have to ask Michael". So one can only assume they had a disagreement.

 

[Duke]

Babel hasnt lived up to the hype. I remember he was considered a serious prospect when he was at Ajax. tbh i cant understand why because i thought he looked poor from day one.Apart from one our two performances coming off the bench in his first season, there has been nothing. He has been given so many chances in every forward position and hasnt done anything. Then when he isnt in the team, he sulks. By all accounts he doesnt work hard enough either. I had never seen him play for Ajax though. Maybe if he moves back to Holland, he might fullfill this potential he supposedly has. All i see is plenty of speed, decent shot, poor technique, poor decision making, surprisingly weak for his size, no confidence, one footed . Im guessing that he done well in the dutch league based on his two strongest attributes- his pace, and his shot. The standard of defending was lower so it was much easier to beat defenders with his pace alone and get space for a shot. Sort of like Cisse in the french league.

Aye, those (pace and powerful shot)were his biggest weapons over here. But against a higher standard of defending and more physical players, he's pretty poor.

But I've never really rated Babel either. You summed up his inadequacies very well, I cringe every time he plays for the NT.

 

[Bobby Sands]

its amazing how some players can be so overhyped.

I wonder if liverpool threw Babel into a deal to buy Afellay or Nordin Amrabat, would PSV be interested.

 

[Bobby Sands]

No, I never said we would've won had Fletcher played. I meant we would have played differently. I doubt any team Fergie put out that day would have won.


It was rumoured. Also towards the start of the season Carrick was suddenly benched for a while for no apparent reason and when Fergie was asked why he said "you'll have to ask Michael". So one can only assume they had a disagreement.

i think something happened after the champions league final. Anderson is supposed to have fell out with Ferguson as well. I supposed he abused them in typical Ferguson manner after that game.

 

[Duke]

You don't want Amrabat, lol. He can't even hold down a first team place at PSV.

 

[Bobby Sands]

i heard he declared for Morocco. I guess if he was gonna be any good, Holland would have got him. thought he looked quality when he played against Liverpool last season. what about Afellay? how is he playing now?

 

[Duke]

Afellay has a different role these days. Rutten tends to play him in front of his defense, in a role like Fabregas.

He's good but I don't know if he's ready for the step to a really big club.

 

[THEV1LL4N]

^^i know. its ridiulous. There was nothing wrong with Cuellar's tackle. He shouldnt have been booked for either incident. There was a similar incident in the Arsenal game where one of the arsenal players tackled Corluka and clearly won the ball. The referee gave a free and a booking. In the Ireland game against Montenegro, Rowlands put in a great hard tackle on one of the montenegro players. It was a hard tackle but he clearly won the ball. The ref gave a free. There have been loads of incidents like this recently.

It seems like they want to take tackling out of football. Maybe they'll ban it altogether. Its great to see a defender going in hard with a tackle as long as its fair.

football is meant to be a physical sport. i totally agree with what you say there - so long as the challenges are fair and not intended to cause deliberate harm or damage.

 

[Bobby Sands]

A post i just read on one of the Liverpool forums, RAWK. i completely agree with most of it:

In order to try and dispell a few media fuelled myths that sections of our fanbase seem to have swollowed; here's the full list of players he's signed since he's been at the club (please read the summary below):

2004/05

£2m - Josemi: peanuts and was moved on in a swap for Kromkamp 18 months later
£1.5m - Antonio Nunez: part of the Michael Owen deal and filled a gap for a while. Peanuts.
£10.7m - Xabi Alonso: Massive success and sold for £30m+ in the summer when he wanted to leave
£6m - Luis Garcia: Massive success and sold to Athletico Madrid for £4m
Free - Pelligrino: Stop gap that allowed us to rest Sami for league games, benefitting us massively in Istanbul. Now on the coaching staff.
£6.3m - Fernando Morientes: Pretty much everyone made up when we signed him, top class, but never settled. Sold for £3m to Valencia.
£1m - Scott Carson: One the most highly rated young keepers around. Lost out through injury and signing of Reina when Dudek left the club. Sold for £3.25m.

Total bought: £27.5m

Free - Marcus Babbel: Released to Stuttgart at the end of his career.
£2.5m - Danny Murphy: Xabi Alonso signed to fill the role Murphy had in the side
£8.5m - Michael Owen: Wouldn't sign a new contract and sold before he left on a free. He's done nothing since that is a masterstroke with hindsight.
Free - Stephane Henchoz: Released to Celtic at the end of his career

Total sold: £11m

A total of £16.5m net spend in his first year at the club, with the vast majority of that being spent on Xabi Alonso.

2004/05 net spend: £16.5m

2005/06

£240,000 - Antonio Barragan: Kid for the future. Sold for £675,000 to Deportivo a year later.
Free - Boudewijn Zenden: Signed for nothing and released for nothing. Did a job for us.
£6m - Pepe Reina: In the top 3 or 4 keepers in the world now and still young. One of Rafa's best signings.
£5.6m - Momo Sissoko: Brilliant for a few years, had that eye injury and sold to Juventus when his form dipped for £8.2m. Replaced by Mascherano.
£7m - Peter Crouch: One signing I did question but proved to be a great bit of business. Turned him from a laughing stock into an international. Sold for £11m.
Unkown - Miki Roque: Kid bought for peanuts. Sold again for an unknown amount.
£150,000 - Jack Hobbs: Highly rated 16yr old signed from Lincoln. Didn't progress as hoped and sold to Leicester for a reported £1.5m, although figure not confirmed.
£190,000 Besian Idrizaj: No idea who he is
£1.5m - Mark Gonzales: Cheap player to provide back up for the left wing. Sold for £3.5m to Real Betis.
Exchange - Paul Anderson: Swapped for John Welsh. Sold for £250,000.
Exchange - Jan Kromkamp: Swapped for Josemi. Later sold for £1.75m
£5.8m - Daniel Agger: Blighted by injuries but potentially top class and great signing for the money.
£250,000 - David Martin: Young reserve keeper
Free - Robbie Fowler: Pay as you play deal and no risk involved. Scored a few goals. Released in the summer.

Total bought: £26.73

Free - Vladimir Smicer: Out of contract and released. Played a small part in Istanbul.
£3.5m - El Hadji Diouf: The best £3.5m Rafa has ever recieved.
Free - Pellegrino: Filled the gap in the last 5 months of the previous season, not good enough and released.
£2m - Alou Diarra: Sold for £2m. One of Houllier's buys.
£2m - Antonio Nunez: Bought for £1.5m and now sold for £2m when didn't work out.
£6.5m - Milan Baros: A Houllier signing sold at a profit. He's done nothing since.
Exchange - John Welsh: Swapped for Paul Anderson
Exchange - Josemi: Swapped for Kronkamp.

Total sold: £14m

2005/06 net spend: £12.73m
2006/07

£6m - Craig Bellamy: Good signing and later sold for £7.5m to fund Torres deal.
£2m - Gabriel Palletta: Played a few league cup games, not good enough and sold for £1.2m
Free - Fabio Aurelio: Very injury prone but a good player when fit. Great signing for nothing.
£6.7m - Jermaine Pennant: Second choice after missing out on Alves. Ran his contract down and released. Attitude stank.
£9m - Dirk Kuyt: Has his critics, but has been brilliant for the money. 15 goals last season from wide and vital to the way we play. Ultimate pro. Great signing.
£200,000 - Nabil El Zhar: Few cameos last season and improving. Injured now. Promising still. Peanuts.
£750,000 - Astrit Ajdarevic: No idea who he is, and released on a free to Leicester.
Loan - Daniele Padelli: Reserve keeper, made one appearance and never seen again.
Undisclosed - Jordy Brouwer: Young reserve.
£2.5m - Alvaro Arbeloa: Bargain signing, great service for a few years and sold for £3.5m when running his contract down.
Loan - Javier Mascherano: Rescued from West Ham, now one of the best defensive midfielders in the world and will probably be sold to Barca this summer for a massive profit. Paid £18.6m for him a year later at end of loan deal.

Total bought: £27.15m

£200,000 - Zak Whitbread: Youngster
Undisclosed - Bruno Cheyrou: Houllier flopped, sold for a reported £1.5m.
£3m - Fernando Morientes: Didn't work out. Cut his losses.
Free - Didi Hamann: Great servant, released at the end of his career
£675,000 - Antonio Barragan: Paid £240,000 for him.
£2m - Djimi Traore: Houllier signing and daylight robbery getting £2m for him
£500,000 - Neil Mellor: Signed as a kid and did a job for a while. Not good enough and released.
£1.75m - Jan Kromkamp: Nunez bought for £2m, swapped for him, who then sold for £1.75m. Stop gaps at minimal expense.
£525,000 - Darren Potter: Acadamy lad, not good enough and robbery getting that much for him.
£1.5m - Steven Warnock: Probably sold to cheap and looks a mistake with hindsight. Good squad player.
Free - Salif Diao: The clearout of Houllier's flops continues.

Total sold: £10.15m

2006/07 net spend: £17m

2007/08


£5m - Lucas Leiva: Brazilian player of the year when signed. Could still go either way but a lot to prove.
Undisclosed - Krisztian Nemeth: Promising youngster currently out on loan in Athens.
£270,000 - Mikel San Jose Dominguez: Youngester plays in the reserves.
£1.8m - Sebastian Leto: Left winger signing but refused a work permit. Sold for £3m.
£20.2m - Fernando Torres: Bargain of the century
Free - Andriy Voronin: Free transfer to strengthen the squad. Plays well in Germany, garbage over here.
£5m - Yossi Benayoun: Took a while to settle but now a key player. Superb signing and an absolute bargain.
£11.5m - Ryan Babel: Highly rated dutch international. Absolute waste of space. Bad signing on reflection, but nobody knew how he'd turn out. Still got potential but he can't be arsed.
Undisclosed - Charles Itandje: Back up keeper signed for peanuts. Now released.
£1.3m - Emiliano Insua: Youngster who is now a full Argentinian international and massive potential. Bargain.
£6.5m - Martin Skrtel: Been off form this season so far, but brilliant last year and a good signing for the money.
£18.6m - Javier Mascherano: Completion of loan deal

Total bought: £70.7m

£2.7m – Florent Simana-Pongolle: Houllier youngster sold wanting first team football.
£100,000 – Daniel O’Donnell: Kid sold
Free – Jerzy Dudek: Released at end of contract
Free - Zenden: Released at end of contract
Free – Robbie Fowler: Released at end of contract
£4m – Luis Garcia: Wanted to return to Spain. Great service.
£6m – Djibril Cisse: Houllier signing sold to part fund Torres deal.
£7.5m – Craig Bellamy: Sold at profit to part fund Torres deal
£3.5m – Mark Gonzales: Signed for £1.5m and sold when didn’t work out.
£1.2m – Gabriel Palletta: Bought for £2m but never worked out. Young defender.
£3.5m – Chris Kirkland: Houllier signing. Injury prone and wanted first team football.
£8.2m – Momo Sissoko: Great signing, good service, sold when lost his form at a profit.

Total sold: £36.7m

2007/08 net spend: £34m

2008/09

Free – Philip Degen: Garbage, but free.
£7m - Andrea Dossena: Italian international left back. Hasn’t settled. Bad signing.
£3.5m – Diego Cavalieri: Reserve keeper. Only played league cup games so far.
£1.5m – David N’gog: Young French striker. Promising.
£19m – Robbie Keane: Everyone made up when we signed him. Didn’t work out and sold back to Spurs for £16m.
£8m - Albert Riera: Spanish international. Started well but jury still out.

Total bought: £39m

£4m – John Arne Riise: Good servant but form tailed off. Snapped their hands off at £4m.
Free – Harry Kewell: Harry who?
Undisclosed – Anthony Le Tallec: Houllier youngster finally released. Fee not known.
£11m – Peter Crouch: Laughing stock bought for £7m. Great signing. Wanted first team football.
£2.25m – Danny Guthrie: Youngster from Acadamy thought not good enough.
£3.25m – Scott Carson: Injury prone and Reina now first choice. Sold at profit.
Undisclosed – Steve Finnan: Sold for a fee believed to be £1m
£16m – Robbie Keane: Didn’t work out.
Undisclosed – Jack Hobbs: Young defender that didn’t progress. Sold for believed to £1.5m.

Total sold: £36.5m

2008/09 net spend: £2.5m


2009/10

£17.5m – Glen Johnson: Big fee, but has been brilliant so far.
£17.1m - Alberto Aquilani: Injured so far but meant to be a class act. Highly rated in Italy.
£2m – Sotirios Kyrgiakos: Last minute signing to fill Hyypia’s shoes. Only money we had to spend.
£160,000 – Daniel Ayala: Young defender, played a few times this season and looked promising.

Total bought: £36.76m

£250,000 – Paul Anderson: Youngster that didn’t progess.
Free – Jermaine Pennant: Out of contract. Poor signing.
Free – Miki Roque: No idea who he is. Bought for peanuts.
£3m – Sebastian Leto: Signed for £1.8m but didn’t get a work permit. Had to sell.
£3.5m – Alvaro Arbeloa: Wanted to leave and out of contract in the summer.
£30m – Xabi Alonso: Wanted to leave. Bought for £10.7m. Great signing.

Total sold: £36.75m

2009/10 net spend: £10,000


Total Players Bought: £228,976,000
Total Players Sold: £145,100,000

Total Net Spend: £83,876,000


So, that’s a total spend of just over £83m in 5 years at the club. An average of £16.6m a year.

The vast majority of his signings have been sold at profit, or if still at the club, are worth a lot more than we paid for them. Exceptions being Babel and Dossena, but we’ll still get decent fees for them when sold as they’re full internationals.

A lot of the signings above have been stepping stones in rebuilding the squad, gradually improving it by replacing players with better ones. Our league positions over the past 5 years and the improvement in our league positions and points totals show the progression.

2004/05: Finished 5th – 58 pts
2005/06: Finished 3rd – 82 pts
2006/07: Finished 3rd – 68 pts
2007/08: Finished 4th – 76 pts
2008/09: Finished 2nd – 86 pts

Is it any coincidence that the progression seems to have stopped this summer? Look at the transfer activity above for this year and it might explain why.

We have a wage bill that is the 5th highest in the league. We can’t afford to pay players £70,000 to be sat on the bench like United and Chelsea can.

Rafa Benitez’ record with signings at the top end of the market is nothing short of brilliant. Robbie Keane being the only flop, but he was sold 6 months later and only a small financial hit taken on that mistake. Rick Parry agreed the fee for buying him in the first place, and common knowledge Rafa wasn’t happy with it; feeling it was far too high.

Where has this myth come from that he’s wasted money on shite players? Have a look through the lists above and try to point them out. There isn’t many.

The ones that haven’t worked out he’s moved on, and not very often has he made a financial loss on them.

The squad is now worth a hell of a lot more than the one he inherited, and that £83m net spend over 5 years is easily offset by the increased value of the squad. He’d recoup nearly all of that through the sale of Torres alone!

He’s worked absolute wonders with the money he’s had to spend. Then take into account the massive amounts of money he’s self generated by reaching the latter stages of the CL every season. Two final appearances, one win. That £83m he’s spent he’s earned the right to spend.

And when comparing it to what United have spent in the same period is flawed, as they already had a title winning squad and all the foundations in place. They weren’t rebuilding from scratch like we were. It also doesn’t take into account their massive wage bill.

When comparing to Chelsea, they spent all their money before Rafa came to the club and just topping up an already established squad.

Man City have spent more than double in the past 12 months than Rafa Benitez has in his 5 year reign.

Do some people still want to get rid of him? If so, you’ve been listening to Martin Tyler's Monkey and the hairy-handed halfwit for too much and unable to look at the facts yourself to form an opinion.

Every manager makes tactical mistakes. Every manager makes mistakes in the transfer market. Despite what the press seem to think; Rafael Benitez appears to make less mistakes than most.

We’re expected to win the league and European Cup on a budget and wage bill that is entitled to finish 4th or 5th in the league. We’ve been overachieving under Rafael Benitez, not underachieving.

I’m not even going to mention the environment he’s working in under them two clowns.

You’ll only miss him when he’s gone….

BHB, RAWK

 

[2Pax]

I agree with the poster to a certain extent, however it seems he has gone to remarkable lengths to prove what exactly? That Benitez is good and selling players on for a profit? Im sorry but that doesnt win you trophies.

And its a little premature to state "the progression has stopped this year". Its only halfway through the season and we still have another transfer window.

And when he tries to compare it to the amount of money United have spent he forgets to include that United have only spent £9m more in the same period since Benitez took over:

£221.95M - Uniteds total spend since June 2004 .

£212.69M - Liverpools spend in the same period.


I can see where the poster is coming from but hes only presented an article thats incredible one-sided and tinged with neglect.

 

[Bobby Sands]

yes but Benitez inherited a shit team. he had to build from scratch whereas Man Utd and Chelsea already had title winning squads in place. thats the point he is making. I think you have taken this post as a dig towards man utd which isnt the case. He also wants to point out that every player Benitez has signed hasnt been a flop like the media would have you believe. In fact the majority of them have been good signings.

 

[2Pax]

yes but Benitez inherited a shit team. he had to build from scratch whereas Man Utd and Chelsea already had title winning squads in place.

True, but aren't all squads are built from scratch at somepoint?

thats the point he is making. I think you have taken this post as a dig towards man utd which isnt the case. He also wants to point out that every player Benitez has signed hasnt been a flop like the media would have you believe. In fact the majority of them have been good signings.

Yea I agree with that, it is a bit of an over-statement that he squandered millions on flops. I mean, look at Torres, Kuyt, Masch, Benayoun and Skrtel. All quality players and all relatively bargains.

 

[hizzle?]

He buys good players, it's just that he's a coward when it comes to put a 3rd striker at 1-1 at home in the 2nd leg of the CL semi-finals...