WCW-World Championship Wrestling
- Thread starter makavelli963
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bigmack said:
If it wasnt money problems why did vince buy out wcw??? If wcw sucked so bad why would anyone buy it? Just let it die by itself,then all the talent will be at your door in no time. And vince wouldnt of had to pay anything.But it wasnt like that.
Wcw just couldnt support itself finacially, thats why they let a handful of talent go. People were getting paid alot of money in wcw, much more than wwf,thats why they ran out of money. But still thats not an excuse to call it shit just because they fell off financially.
The only reason why wwf was getting better ratings was because of the rock and stone cold. its just like the rap game. you got these commercial rappers, 50 cent and eminem. you got all these kiddies buying their shit, so they are on top. DOesnt mean they are the best. 50 cent is trash and eminem fell off. Yet they still sell the most.Its the same situation with stone cold and the rock. I dont see what so special amount stone colds talent, or the rock's talent. they got all these little gay moves and people love it,so of course they're gonna wanna watch it.i'm glad the late owen hart ended stone cold's career.
Wcw just couldnt support itself finacially, thats why they let a handful of talent go. People were getting paid alot of money in wcw, much more than wwf,thats why they ran out of money. But still thats not an excuse to call it shit just because they fell off financially.
The only reason why wwf was getting better ratings was because of the rock and stone cold. its just like the rap game. you got these commercial rappers, 50 cent and eminem. you got all these kiddies buying their shit, so they are on top. DOesnt mean they are the best. 50 cent is trash and eminem fell off. Yet they still sell the most.Its the same situation with stone cold and the rock. I dont see what so special amount stone colds talent, or the rock's talent. they got all these little gay moves and people love it,so of course they're gonna wanna watch it.i'm glad the late owen hart ended stone cold's career.
Vince buyed out WCW to get the contracts of the wrestlers, the trademarks and the video library. $7m for all that is nothing.
By the end of WCW, it was shit. The reason it "fell off financially" was because the product was awful and people switched over to the far more exciting WWF.
People switched to WWF because they had fresh stars, fresh ideas and they were in touch with what wrestling fans wanted. Austin and The Rock were not "trash". Both have put on bonafide classics. Nobody in their right mind would suggest that Hogan, Savage, Luger, Nash or Hall were better in the ring that Austin and The Rock. The Rock could talk like nobody else, and he put on great performances in the ring. You might think The People's Elbow was "gay", but that's because you were supposed to. He debuted the move as a heel to piss off the fans. Austin put on some of the best wild brawls I've ever seen, and in his latter years could still put on a slower, psychological match with people like Angle and Benoit.
Goldberg says "Hi". The only difference between Brock and Goldberg is that Brock was a far better wrestler. Not only did he have the strength, he had the technical ability (two-time NCAA champion) and the agility (he could pull off a shooting star press, despite fucking up the one at 'Mania). Goldberg had a ridiculously limited moveset, and the fact that he ended Bret Hart's career is reason enough to hate him.
This right here invalidates every single thing you've said. JBL in no way deserves to be champ. He can't wrestle for shit. He can talk, but he can't do anything between the ropes. He works stiff, he undersells and he can't pull off anything but the simplest of moves.
Because he burnt out. He couldn't take the pressure on him. He'll get his chance again, hopefully.
By the end of WCW, it was shit. The reason it "fell off financially" was because the product was awful and people switched over to the far more exciting WWF.
The only reason why wwf was getting better ratings was because of the rock and stone cold. its just like the rap game. you got these commercial rappers, 50 cent and eminem. you got all these kiddies buying their shit, so they are on top. DOesnt mean they are the best. 50 cent is trash and eminem fell off. Yet they still sell the most.Its the same situation with stone cold and the rock. I dont see what so special amount stone colds talent, or the rock's talent. they got all these little gay moves and people love it,so of course they're gonna wanna watch it.i'm glad the late owen hart ended stone cold's career.
Goldberg says "Hi". The only difference between Brock and Goldberg is that Brock was a far better wrestler. Not only did he have the strength, he had the technical ability (two-time NCAA champion) and the agility (he could pull off a shooting star press, despite fucking up the one at 'Mania). Goldberg had a ridiculously limited moveset, and the fact that he ended Bret Hart's career is reason enough to hate him.
This right here invalidates every single thing you've said. JBL in no way deserves to be champ. He can't wrestle for shit. He can talk, but he can't do anything between the ropes. He works stiff, he undersells and he can't pull off anything but the simplest of moves.
Because he burnt out. He couldn't take the pressure on him. He'll get his chance again, hopefully.
He could have waited until wcw was completely demolished on its own,then the wrestlers would have crawled to vince.
He bought the trademark and library for 7 million, well i dont see him doing anything with it.
The reason why it fell off financially was not because people lost interest in it. So many people loved it,but the reason why it fell off was because,like you pointed out,stars were getting payed ridiculous amounts. This has nothing to do with the talent being weak, or the loss of interest in the product.
I don't think The rock or stone cold had that much skill. I'd agree that stone cold was better than the rock,but those are just my opinions. The rock and stone cold's little sayings and actions(non wrestling related) is what made them that huge.Like when the rock is talking on the mic like u pointed out,the fan's love it.But still this has nothing to do with his skill. If he was the crappiest wrestler,but kept using that roody poo candy ass the rock has come back etc... he would still be labeled like he is now.
Same with austin. Thats the bottom line... The stone cold stunner...Thats why people love him. He's way overrated. He draws seats,same with the rock. If you don't believe me, then how come since he hasnt wrestled for a long ass time,he is still bigger than ever? And the rock. Last time he showed up, he just talked,but people saw him as some kind of god,even though he didnt do shit.
Just like hogan when he recently wrestled. He was slower than ever(because of hip replacement surgery), but everyone was saying how amazing that match was,even though it was garbage.
Wrestling fell off because mic talent is apparently more important than skill. If you can get the fans to love you, you are great,doesnt matter what your wrestling skills are like. Hell, theres alot of guys who are the most amazing wrestlers but dont have mic skills so they are not big.Look at carlito. He cant wrestle worth shit. He just knows how to talk. He draws seats. He's popular and getting bigger. They're making him beef with some of the older gen wrestlers like bigshow.Pretty soon he'll be going for the belt.
I'm the biggest bret hart fan. He lives 5 minutes away from me and I see him all the time. But that doesnt give me reason to hate goldberg for this reason alone. Shit happens.It was an accident. Plus its not a known fact wheather it was from goldberg's kick. Bret couldnt remember if the stroke happened before he fell off his bike, or if it was because he fell off the bike then hit his head then the stroke happened.
JBL doesnt suck. He has skill. It's just the people he wrestles arent his style. He deserves to be champ,but I don't think it worked out because he doesnt fit in well in the championship boat with the other people's style. Remember when he was justin hawk bradshaw, or when he was with farooq. You cant say he sucks man. Maybe if he was wrestling other guys with similar style he wouldnt have looked as bad as you make him look.
Maybe.
And when I said people who prefer wwe over wcw dont know shit bout wrestling, i just said that shit to push some peoples buttons so we can have a good discussion. Guess it worked
He bought the trademark and library for 7 million, well i dont see him doing anything with it.
The reason why it fell off financially was not because people lost interest in it. So many people loved it,but the reason why it fell off was because,like you pointed out,stars were getting payed ridiculous amounts. This has nothing to do with the talent being weak, or the loss of interest in the product.
I don't think The rock or stone cold had that much skill. I'd agree that stone cold was better than the rock,but those are just my opinions. The rock and stone cold's little sayings and actions(non wrestling related) is what made them that huge.Like when the rock is talking on the mic like u pointed out,the fan's love it.But still this has nothing to do with his skill. If he was the crappiest wrestler,but kept using that roody poo candy ass the rock has come back etc... he would still be labeled like he is now.
Same with austin. Thats the bottom line... The stone cold stunner...Thats why people love him. He's way overrated. He draws seats,same with the rock. If you don't believe me, then how come since he hasnt wrestled for a long ass time,he is still bigger than ever? And the rock. Last time he showed up, he just talked,but people saw him as some kind of god,even though he didnt do shit.
Just like hogan when he recently wrestled. He was slower than ever(because of hip replacement surgery), but everyone was saying how amazing that match was,even though it was garbage.
Wrestling fell off because mic talent is apparently more important than skill. If you can get the fans to love you, you are great,doesnt matter what your wrestling skills are like. Hell, theres alot of guys who are the most amazing wrestlers but dont have mic skills so they are not big.Look at carlito. He cant wrestle worth shit. He just knows how to talk. He draws seats. He's popular and getting bigger. They're making him beef with some of the older gen wrestlers like bigshow.Pretty soon he'll be going for the belt.
I'm the biggest bret hart fan. He lives 5 minutes away from me and I see him all the time. But that doesnt give me reason to hate goldberg for this reason alone. Shit happens.It was an accident. Plus its not a known fact wheather it was from goldberg's kick. Bret couldnt remember if the stroke happened before he fell off his bike, or if it was because he fell off the bike then hit his head then the stroke happened.
JBL doesnt suck. He has skill. It's just the people he wrestles arent his style. He deserves to be champ,but I don't think it worked out because he doesnt fit in well in the championship boat with the other people's style. Remember when he was justin hawk bradshaw, or when he was with farooq. You cant say he sucks man. Maybe if he was wrestling other guys with similar style he wouldnt have looked as bad as you make him look.
Maybe.
And when I said people who prefer wwe over wcw dont know shit bout wrestling, i just said that shit to push some peoples buttons so we can have a good discussion. Guess it worked
You have to take into account his ego. He wanted the satisfaction of buying his biggest rival.
You mean like putting out DVDs with WCW footage on? Like the Monday Night Wars DVD, the Greatest Wrestling Stars of the 80s DVD, the Road Warrios (Legion of Doom) DVD, the Ric Flair DVD and the Eddie Guerrero DVD, for example? You don't see them using WCW trademarks like The Great American Bash for their PPVs?
There was a clear loss of interest in the product, that's why WWF ratings soared while WCW ratings dropped. Poor financial management and a stale product combined to cause the downfall of WCW.
The fact that both could hold their own inside the ring is what separates them from people like JBL or Randy Orton. They weren't Chris Benoit, but they did put on amazing matches with each other and the other WWF uppercard. Though they weren't the best technical or aerial wrestlers in the world, they knew how to make best use of their skills. They had timing and charisma in the ring, they knew how to work a crowd. You can execute all the suplexes you want, if there's no psychology or meaning behind what you do, the match isn't going to grab anyone's interest.
Because they're too of the most charismatic wrestlers ever. The same reason people marked for Hogan and Piper at WrestleMania. The same reason people mark for Foley whenever he shows up. This doesn't have anything to do with how good they were in the ring when they were wrestling, it's not an indication that they were no good in the ring. The same would/will happen to Guerrero and Jericho.
Nobody I know or spoke to said the match was amazing.
When was mic talent not as important as skill? Did Hogan become an icon because of skill? No, he's never been a skillful wrestler. Wrestling is a form of entertainment. If you can't get the fans to either love you or hate you, then nobody will care whether you win or lose. This isn't the UFC or PRIDE. The whole point behind storylines and gimmicks is the get people interested in the matches. WCW, ECW, TNA...they all did or do the same thing. The nWo angle made people care more about the matches, it gave people a reason to wrestle each other. Displays of technical brilliance are nice, but only the purists would be able to enjoy a match with no background or reasoning behind it.
His style? His style is sloppy brute force. He can't wrestle, the only match that suits his style is a wild brawl a la his last match with Cena, and you can't put him in those all the time. I remember the APA, and I remember wishing they'd stay the fuck out of a wrestling ring. He's improved since then in terms of selling, but he's still awful. The only reason he got a push was because 1) he's big and 2) he's been with the company for a long time. The latter is the same reason they gave Hardcore Holly a push, which failed miserably. Add to this the fact that he's a complete asshole backstage and there's ample reasons to say he sucks. Anyone who threatens to hogtie and anal rape referees in the showers deserves every bit of criticism he gets. I'm glad the internet wrestling community cost him his job on MSNBC.
You mean like putting out DVDs with WCW footage on? Like the Monday Night Wars DVD, the Greatest Wrestling Stars of the 80s DVD, the Road Warrios (Legion of Doom) DVD, the Ric Flair DVD and the Eddie Guerrero DVD, for example? You don't see them using WCW trademarks like The Great American Bash for their PPVs?
There was a clear loss of interest in the product, that's why WWF ratings soared while WCW ratings dropped. Poor financial management and a stale product combined to cause the downfall of WCW.
The fact that both could hold their own inside the ring is what separates them from people like JBL or Randy Orton. They weren't Chris Benoit, but they did put on amazing matches with each other and the other WWF uppercard. Though they weren't the best technical or aerial wrestlers in the world, they knew how to make best use of their skills. They had timing and charisma in the ring, they knew how to work a crowd. You can execute all the suplexes you want, if there's no psychology or meaning behind what you do, the match isn't going to grab anyone's interest.
Because they're too of the most charismatic wrestlers ever. The same reason people marked for Hogan and Piper at WrestleMania. The same reason people mark for Foley whenever he shows up. This doesn't have anything to do with how good they were in the ring when they were wrestling, it's not an indication that they were no good in the ring. The same would/will happen to Guerrero and Jericho.
Nobody I know or spoke to said the match was amazing.
When was mic talent not as important as skill? Did Hogan become an icon because of skill? No, he's never been a skillful wrestler. Wrestling is a form of entertainment. If you can't get the fans to either love you or hate you, then nobody will care whether you win or lose. This isn't the UFC or PRIDE. The whole point behind storylines and gimmicks is the get people interested in the matches. WCW, ECW, TNA...they all did or do the same thing. The nWo angle made people care more about the matches, it gave people a reason to wrestle each other. Displays of technical brilliance are nice, but only the purists would be able to enjoy a match with no background or reasoning behind it.
His style? His style is sloppy brute force. He can't wrestle, the only match that suits his style is a wild brawl a la his last match with Cena, and you can't put him in those all the time. I remember the APA, and I remember wishing they'd stay the fuck out of a wrestling ring. He's improved since then in terms of selling, but he's still awful. The only reason he got a push was because 1) he's big and 2) he's been with the company for a long time. The latter is the same reason they gave Hardcore Holly a push, which failed miserably. Add to this the fact that he's a complete asshole backstage and there's ample reasons to say he sucks. Anyone who threatens to hogtie and anal rape referees in the showers deserves every bit of criticism he gets. I'm glad the internet wrestling community cost him his job on MSNBC.
I don't understand your reasoning behind this statement. If people didn't lose interest in the product, then why were more and more people starting to watch Raw than Nitro? They were tired of seeing the same old guys being pushed to the moon while much more deserving guys were held back. Even their tricks to try to steal away ratings from WWE backfired most of the time. For example, when Tony Schiavonne announced on Nitro that Mick Foley was going to win the title on Raw that night back in 99, more than half of the Nitro audience switched over to Raw to see it happen. They just started running out of ideas after nWo and Goldberg reached their peaks. I mean honestly, did you really think making David-fucking-Arquette the WCW champ was a good idea? Or putting Jay Leno in the ring? However I will concede that the biggest mistake WCW made was taking Eric Bischoff out of power and bringing in guys who didn't know the business. That's what really killed them. What's funny to me though is that you keep saying WWE sucks now, but yet you obviously still watch it 
Devious187 said:
I don't understand your reasoning behind this statement. If people didn't lose interest in the product, then why were more and more people starting to watch Raw than Nitro? They were tired of seeing the same old guys being pushed to the moon while much more deserving guys were held back. Even their tricks to try to steal away ratings from WWE backfired most of the time. For example, when Tony Schiavonne announced on Nitro that Mick Foley was going to win the title on Raw that night back in 99, more than half of the Nitro audience switched over to Raw to see it happen. They just started running out of ideas after nWo and Goldberg reached their peaks. I mean honestly, did you really think making David-fucking-Arquette the WCW champ was a good idea? Or putting Jay Leno in the ring? However I will concede that the biggest mistake WCW made was taking Eric Bischoff out of power and bringing in guys who didn't know the business. That's what really killed them. What's funny to me though is that you keep saying WWE sucks now, but yet you obviously still watch it
of course i still watch it.what do u expect me to watch??? TNA lmao.
and ratings dont mean shit.just because more people watched wwe doesnt mean its the best.more people watched wwe because of the soap opera atmosphere.you have kids, parents, grandparents, the whole world and their mama watching raw. since when was wrestling so interesting to every age group???
the real wrestling fans watched nitro because it wasnt full of that bullshit hype. wwe sold out,nitro didnt.
but i agree with you in the end,when bischoff was gone,then that was crap because no one held it down like bischoff. and everytime im mention wcw im talkin bout when bischoff was in control not vince fuckin russo and the other fags. i despise russo.
WWF Attitude was not aimed at little kids, nor was it aimed at grandparents. Wrestling became popular because of the storyline aspect of it, you act as if only WWF had gimmicks and angles.
People switched over because the WWF product was better. Fans wanted more realistic characters and storylines, that why ECW was so popular. From 1999 on, WWF was far better than WCW. Just admit it.
People switched over because the WWF product was better. Fans wanted more realistic characters and storylines, that why ECW was so popular. From 1999 on, WWF was far better than WCW. Just admit it.
I never meant to imply that it was better simply because it had higher ratings, I was only saying that more people tuned off of WCW and onto Raw, now why would they do that? Probably because they felt the WWF profuct was better. And I wasn't talking about Russo, I was talking about behind the scenes. Bischoff didn't write the show, but he made the final decisions on what would air. When they took him out of that position and put some other guys in there instead of Bischoff (Can't remember names, but they were TV execs who knew nothing about the wrestling business), they started making really bad decisions. Vince Russo, was just a writer, he was never in a position of power at WCW.
yeah they "Felt" the wwe product was better. But who were all these people who tuned into raw?
and you're telling me the people watching nitro actually turned nitro off for raw??? WRONG. nitro always had the same audience, BUT new viewers started watching raw. Thats it,Nitro had never lost any of its fans.
and you're telling me the people watching nitro actually turned nitro off for raw??? WRONG. nitro always had the same audience, BUT new viewers started watching raw. Thats it,Nitro had never lost any of its fans.
Bischoff was responsible for the initial decline in WCW ratings. He was the one that pushed Jay Leno and Dennis Rodman, he was the one that brought in overpaid, egotistical wrestlers like Hogan, Savage, Luger and Warrior. Under Bischoff's reign, Chris Jericho (who jumped ship to WWF under Bischoff's reign), Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko, Perry Saturn, Billy Kidman and countless other talents became disillusioned and annoyed at the lack of opportunities. Bischoff was removed in December 1999. Vince Russo and Ed Ferrera, former WWF writers, were the "Powers That Be" in WCW, on and off screen. They had complete control over the product. Russo and Ferrera took over a declining WCW and effectively killed it off. They tried to phase out the older stars Bischoff had been pushing. But, without someone to tone down or scrap Russo's ideas, they ran riot and were responsible for some awful television. Russo was suspended, but came back in 2000 along with Bischoff. Together, they put the World Title around the waist of David Arquette and Russo himself. They were both gone by the end of the year. WWE bought WCW in March 2001.
Russo is more responsible for the Death of WCW, but Bischoff isn't completely innocent either.
Russo is more responsible for the Death of WCW, but Bischoff isn't completely innocent either.
BULLSHIT. Nitro never lost viewers? You must have heard this before:
WCW had taken to giving away the results of WWF programming in advance, to stop people switching over (RAW wasn't always live).
On January 4th, 1999, Bischoff told commentator Tony Schiavone to announce that Mankind would win the WWF Title on RAW, adding sarcasticallt "That'll put a lot of butts in the seats!" at which point six hundred thousand people switched to the USA Network to watch RAW.
WCW had taken to giving away the results of WWF programming in advance, to stop people switching over (RAW wasn't always live).
On January 4th, 1999, Bischoff told commentator Tony Schiavone to announce that Mankind would win the WWF Title on RAW, adding sarcasticallt "That'll put a lot of butts in the seats!" at which point six hundred thousand people switched to the USA Network to watch RAW.
again,wcw never lost any fans.wwe gained viewers hence the change in ratings.
and talent always switch from one promotion to the other.
so if hogan,nash,hall,hart,etc... went from wwf to wcw thats different than talent going from wcw to wwf? thats not a valid point u made when i said they jumped ship bcuz lack of opportunity because it doesnt make a point that wwf was more opportunistic than wcw.
and You cant blaim Bischoff. They kicked him out first. Russo ruined everything.Then when bischoff came back wcw was already doomed,thats why he tried different things like arquette as champ.what did u expect him to do?
and talent always switch from one promotion to the other.
so if hogan,nash,hall,hart,etc... went from wwf to wcw thats different than talent going from wcw to wwf? thats not a valid point u made when i said they jumped ship bcuz lack of opportunity because it doesnt make a point that wwf was more opportunistic than wcw.
and You cant blaim Bischoff. They kicked him out first. Russo ruined everything.Then when bischoff came back wcw was already doomed,thats why he tried different things like arquette as champ.what did u expect him to do?
600,000 WWF groupies were watching Nitro instead of RAW? Please. Those people were wrestling fans, the viewers WWF and WCW were competing for. They switched over to RAW because the product was better. Foley winning the title was more interesting that whatever was happening on Nitro, and that was symbolic of the product as a whole. WWF was far more exciting.
You can't honestly believe that the same people watched WCW til the end, and that WWF simply attracted new people? All you have to do is go back and look at post-99 episodes of Nitro and Thunder and see how many fans are there. Less people were watching the TV shows, less people were going to the live shows and less people were buying the PPVs.
I don't know where you got that, but it's nonsense. The AOL Time Warner merger, which allowed the company to auction off WCW, wasn't approved until January 11th 2001.
You can't honestly believe that the same people watched WCW til the end, and that WWF simply attracted new people? All you have to do is go back and look at post-99 episodes of Nitro and Thunder and see how many fans are there. Less people were watching the TV shows, less people were going to the live shows and less people were buying the PPVs.
I don't know where you got that, but it's nonsense. The AOL Time Warner merger, which allowed the company to auction off WCW, wasn't approved until January 11th 2001.
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