Israel authorizes 'severe' response to abductions

[Morris]

The attack on the USS Liberty, which i dont care what you say, your CNN story was a lil dated www.ussliberty.org Is pretty up to date and also includes first hand accounts from Radio Operators abord the vessal who had been intercepting Israeli transmissions the entire time, to fellow sailors an even a Israeli pilot who admitted it being intentional.

American spy planes captured radio transmissions between Israeli pilots and ground control in which the pilots identify the ship as Egyptian. As if that's not enough evidence, the fact that nobody could possibly come up with a good reason why Israel would attack an ally while at war with 3 neighbors should lead everyone with common sense to question the conspiracy theory.

Of course sailors aboard the USS Liberty are going to be upset about what happened and hold grudges. Any of us would. But friendly fire incidents occur in every war. Nobody can come up with a credible reason why Israel would intentionally attack an ally's ship while already engaged against 3 enemies for its survival. Every conspiracy theorist who has posed a theory on the USS Liberty has had their theory refuted by the facts.

 

[ArtsyGirl]

I saw on a news report on ABC here (which is one of the most objective stations here) that Israel warned a small town of people to evacuate and when they did they bombed them, I think 15 were killed. Obviously dont have a link for that since I saw it on TV not on the net, but it seems like Israel is being over the top. I understand that they need to deal with Hezbullah but from everything I'm seeing/reading they are causing more harm than anything. The soldiers shouldnt have been kidnapped and Israel shouldnt be bombing Lebanon like it is.

 

[Glockmatic]

i think i read on yahoo news that leaflets were dropped over towns telling them to evacuate too, probably the same story

 

[Duke]

Yes, Israel has been dropping leaflets all over Beirut urging people to leave.

Problem is, those people have nowhere to go. No money, no means of transportation and now Israel's is bombing the place, no infrastructure left and most likely no home.

= little terrorist breeding ground.

 

[Khaled]

i think i read on yahoo news that leaflets were dropped over towns telling them to evacuate too, probably the same story

this is true, after Israel had bombed all the bridges and roads leading out of the town, they dropped these leaflets.

Assault on Lebanon makes mockery of Geneva Conventions


http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=74043
Daily Star staff
Tuesday, July 18, 2006


BEIRUT: Israeli actions in the past week appear to be in violation of international law regarding the conduct of war, which is regulated by the Geneva Conventions, a set of international agreements first formulated in 1949 that govern - among other things - the treatment of civilians. These cover all international conflict, whether declared or undeclared, meaning the current Israeli offensive against Lebanon is subject to international law.

Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions, and their 1977 Protocols, civilians are defined as all those who are not active participants in combat. Under Article 51 of Protocol I "the civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited." This would seem to indicate that the July 15 attack on a minibus full of civilians attempting to flee the village of Marwahin in the South, resulting in 18 deaths, constituted a breach of international law.

While Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations," Article 48 of Protocol I states that "the presence within the civilian population of individuals who do not come within the definition of civilians does not deprive the population of its civilian character." This means the presence of military targets, including arms caches, in civilian areas of Beirut and in villages in the South of Lebanon, does not render those areas acceptable military targets. This also indicates Hizbullah's attacks on civilian targets are illegal under international law. Warring parties are also prohibited under the First Protocol from using civilians to shield their military installations, as Israel has accused Hizbullah of doing.


Also prohibited under international law are attacks on "civilian objects." These include water-processing plants, such as the Yurin plant, and the grain silo in Beirut Port, both attacked Saturday by Israel. This also applies to the civilian power plants around the country which have come under deliberate attack. Attacks on civilian targets such as food and water storage facilities and power plants may also be considered to be reprisals, banned under Article 52 of Protocol I.

The type of weapon that may be used in war is also governed by international law. Article 35 of Protocol I states: "It is prohibited to employ weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering." Witnesses have reported that on July 15, the Israeli Air Force dropped cluster bombs on the southern suburbs of Beirut. These bombs, which explode multiple times, distributing large amounts of shrapnel, are internationally banned, although this ban is not recognized by all countries.

Furthermore, according to a statement released by the Presidential Palace, on Saturday, in its attack on villages in the Arqoub area in the South, Israel made use of phosphorus weapons, also internationally banned.

In violation of Article 62 of Protocol I, Israel has attacked two Civil Defense buildings, which are considered protected civilian objects under international law. - The Daily Star

 

[Think_ThuGLiFE]

because neither iran or syria kidnapped those soldiers, hezbollah did

Syria and Iran are the root of the problem . Syria wants control over lebanon again thus this makes the people want 2 accept them back. The lebanese govt is currupt but also has no control over hezbollah (which has been ruining lebanon for years).

I seen this coming just a matter of time , such a beutiful country destroyed for these peice of shyt extremest who sacrafices its country for their "cause". Isreal could of handled it better but hezbollah is to blame.



A little tid bit Lebanese is not "arab" its just lebanese.

 

[Morris]

= little terrorist breeding ground.

You still haven't said what you think a proper response would be. The same people who you claim are being bred into terrorists are already watching Palestinian programming glorifying suicide bombing or Al Manar, so the indoctrination occurs without Israeli attacks or occupation.

Is it a coincidence that the trouble spots are occurring in places where Israel fully withdrew, while the West Bank remains quiet?

 

[PELLA]

Isreal should do everything in its power to find those 2 soldiers, but looking for soldiers isnt bombing a bridge and Lebanon is irresponsible for not helping Isreal find those 2 soldiers. Both countries are to blame imo

The states should NOT get involved.

 

[Sebastian]

The thing is, Lebanon should disarm the Hizbollah as said by a UN resolution. The problem is that the government is not strong enough to do it, so it will probably never happen without some other country getting involved.

Hizbollah captures two soldiers. Isreal reacting is understandable, but not the way they do it now. Its simply not right to bomb everyone and everyhing with all the innocent people getting killed. But again the problem is, if they wouldnt do it Hizbollah would continue to capture soldiers or bomb Israel.

What can they do? Sooner or later they (Israelis and Palestinian) have to agree upon the territory of Israel. As long as they cant find a solution, there will never be peace.

 

[PELLA]

tha fact is, wars like this are always gonna be around. I dont think we're gonna see a long time peace resolution between the 2 and its allies. Ever.

 

[ill-matic]

Morris you just disgust me full stop. The fact that you defend these mass bombings which have consequently incurred huge costs of civilian life, property and infrastructure is just deplorable. I can't believe you have even defended the bombing of highways, airports etc as a necessary action just because Hezbolla (seemingly) utilises those avenues for transportation etc. What kind of a defence is this? I've already mentioned that the International Crime Court and the 1949 Geneva Conventions have declared such acts as STATE TERRORISM and ILLEGAL, yet you try to pull all this "UN Declaration" and "Balfour Declaration" shit in an attempt to allude that Israel has a RIGHT to Palestinian land. How can you ignore one set of documents yet use another as a basis for your arguments?

I'm sorry but your attitude and double standards just disgust me. Clearly the Israeli actions are ILLEGAL and CANNOT be rationalised. You can NEVER justify a military action such as this when HUGE CIVILIAN COSTS ARE INCURRED.

 

[Glockmatic]

Israel is trying to destroy hezbollah, bombing airports, seaports and highways would destroy their logistics so weapons and militants cannot get into the city. If hezbollah did not hide in a civilian population this would have a quick war with very few civilian casualties, but its the opposite.

the 1949 geneva conventions have nothing to do with this since Lebanon is still lebanons and israel hasn't captured it. For the 1949 geneva convention to matter, israel must occupy lebanon. Israel did not sign to participate in the international criminal court so they can't be prosecuted in that court. You say this stuff like Hezbollah hasn't done anything wrong and all the blame is on israel, hezbollah was first to cross israel sovereignty and kidnapped 2 soldiers and now they're firing rockets at cities that have no military targets.

 

[PELLA]

^ x2

Hezbollah backstabbed Isreal hardcore, they deserve this kind of beating (but not the civilians), even though im against war until all other options are exhausted.

 

[Morris]

I can't believe you have even defended the bombing of highways, airports etc as a necessary action just because Hezbolla (seemingly) utilises those avenues for transportation etc. What kind of a defence is this?

Transportation routes are the most important military targets. The airport in Beirut was the most used method of Hezbollah receiving its weapons from the region. Bridges and highways to Damascus obviously have to go.

You can continue to blame Israel for having to isolate Hezbollah and attempt to destroy its infrastructure. I'm going to blame Hezbollah for using civilian shields and operating in densely crowded areas to ensure civilian casualties, so that people like you will get mad at the rising casualties of the campaign. If you find my stance deplorable, so be it.

I've already mentioned that the International Crime Court and the 1949 Geneva Conventions have declared such acts as STATE TERRORISM and ILLEGAL,

No it hasn't. The documents don't outline what is and what's not excessive force. Khaled was kind enough to post the exact wording of the Geneva Convention documents on this page of the thread. You'll clearly see that the wording is intentionally vague, so it's subject to interpretation.

yet you try to pull all this "UN Declaration" and "Balfour Declaration" shit in an attempt to allude that Israel has a RIGHT to Palestinian land. How can you ignore one set of documents yet use another as a basis for your arguments?

I use the declaration "shit" to show Israel's right to the lands that fell under the 1948 UN plan. The ensuing war left Israel in possession of more of the lands. Since Israel's obviously not entitled to give land back to people trying to kill them, the UN resolutions that people commonly cite as proof of occupation actually mean the territories are officially disputed until a peace accord, Israel's not forced to give the West Bank or Gaza back to the Palestinians,

What this has to do with Lebanon, I don't know.

 

[ill-matic]

Israel is trying to destroy hezbollah, bombing airports, seaports and highways would destroy their logistics so weapons and militants cannot get into the city. If hezbollah did not hide in a civilian population this would have a quick war with very few civilian casualties, but its the opposite.

What kind of an argument is this? It is just so vague and just so irresponsible to destroy a road because "it MAY be used by Hezbollah". I can apply the same argument and try to justify Hezbollah's killing of innocent Israeli civilians by saying that those people killed COULD have joined the Israeli military. Your entire argument is baseless and completely ludicrous because it's trying to rationalise the killing of thousands of civilians; the destruction of their homes; their workplaces; their means of transportation; and, in essence, their entire lifestyles.

Israel believes that by crippling the entire nation, they will EVENTUALLY destroy Hezbollah. Their entire strategy already appears to be quite futile, seeing as Hezbolla had only just recently fired 90 rockets into Israel's third largest city, Haifa. Creating mass destruction of a nations capital does not solve anything - it only permeates into greater Lebanese resentment of Israel, and thus only provides further support for the Hezbollah cause.

the 1949 geneva conventions have nothing to do with this since Lebanon is still lebanons and israel hasn't captured it. For the 1949 geneva convention to matter, israel must occupy lebanon. Israel did not sign to participate in the international criminal court so they can't be prosecuted in that court.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/wh...-flee-the-south/2006/07/23/1153593216876.html

Yes, now i can see exactly why they chose not to participate in the ICC.

And how about this?

United Nations (UN) relief coordinator Jan Egeland says the extent of the destruction in the southern suburbs of the Lebanese capital amounts to a violation of humanitarian law.

Mr Egeland has been touring the bombed-out area of Beirut that has been targeted by Israel as a stronghold of militant group Hezbollah, which is based in Lebanon and supported by Iran and Syria.

He says it is horrific, with block after block of houses destroyed.

"It's bigger, it's more extensive than I even could imagine," he said.

Mr Egeland says the violence is costing too many civilian lives and he has called on both sides to stop.

"It seems to be an excessive use of force in an area with so many civilians," he said.

"It makes it a violation of humanitarian law.

"What we do not know, for humanitarians, what was between these buildings, what military targets? But it seems excessive."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200607/s1694373.htm

Clearly, according to this, Israel - being a key player within the United Nations, is in factbreaking the protocols of the organisation whom it is a part of.

You say this stuff like Hezbollah hasn't done anything wrong and all the blame is on israel, hezbollah was first to cross israel sovereignty and kidnapped 2 soldiers and now they're firing rockets at cities that have no military targets.

No i don't say "any stuff like Hezbollah hasn't done anything wrong". I'm not going to try and rationalise the actions of militants, but let me just say that what initiated this response from Israel was the capture of two of their soldiers. SOLDIERS. And Israel responds by bombarding Beirut with tonnes of artillery, in the hope that somehow in the process they will destroy Hezbollah? My point is, the actions of a nation state are different to those of militants. Militants are exactly that - militants, but when very similar actions are committed by a democratically elected GOVERNMENT it is far more difficult to rationalise and justify simply because they are bound by International protocols and documents which forbid such actions. Like I said, this is STATE TERRORISM.

 

[Morris]

Clearly, according to this, Israel - being a key player within the United Nations, is in factbreaking the protocols of the organisation whom it is a part of.

According to that, the UN Relief coordinator, after touring zones of devastation, says it looks excessive. That, of course, is a subjective opinion. The guy admits as much when he said "What we do not know, for humanitarians, what was between these buildings, what military targets?"

but let me just say that what initiated this response from Israel was the capture of two of their soldiers. SOLDIERS.

Tunneling under the Israeli border, ambushing Israeli soldiers on Israeli soil and killing 8 of them (you forgot that part) is not justifiable. Those soldiers weren't engaged or even in a declared state of war with Hezbollah, so it's no better or more justifiable than kidnapping civilians.

My point is, the actions of a nation state are different to those of militants. Militants are exactly that - militants,

Hezbollah is a group of militants with political representation in the Lebanese government.

What kind of an argument is this? It is just so vague and just so irresponsible to destroy a road because "it MAY be used by Hezbollah". I can apply the same argument and try to justify Hezbollah's killing of innocent Israeli civilians by saying that those people killed COULD have joined the Israeli military.

How is it irresponsible to ensure that Hezbollah can't be resupplied to attack Israel more? You don't seem to understand that the government of Israel has a responsibility to protect its own citizens. Hezbollah is intentionally aiming at noncombatants. Israel is not.

 

[Kareem]

What kind of an argument is this? It is just so vague and just so irresponsible to destroy a road because "it MAY be used by Hezbollah". I can apply the same argument and try to justify Hezbollah's killing of innocent Israeli civilians by saying that those people killed COULD have joined the Israeli military. Your entire argument is baseless and completely ludicrous because it's trying to rationalise the killing of thousands of civilians; the destruction of their homes; their workplaces; their means of transportation; and, in essence, their entire lifestyles.

Israel believes that by crippling the entire nation, they will EVENTUALLY destroy Hezbollah. Their entire strategy already appears to be quite futile, seeing as Hezbolla had only just recently fired 90 rockets into Israel's third largest city, Haifa. Creating mass destruction of a nations capital does not solve anything - it only permeates into greater Lebanese resentment of Israel, and thus only provides further support for the Hezbollah cause.




http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/wh...-flee-the-south/2006/07/23/1153593216876.html

Yes, now i can see exactly why they chose not to participate in the ICC.

And how about this?

United Nations (UN) relief coordinator Jan Egeland says the extent of the destruction in the southern suburbs of the Lebanese capital amounts to a violation of humanitarian law.

Mr Egeland has been touring the bombed-out area of Beirut that has been targeted by Israel as a stronghold of militant group Hezbollah, which is based in Lebanon and supported by Iran and Syria.

He says it is horrific, with block after block of houses destroyed.

"It's bigger, it's more extensive than I even could imagine," he said.

Mr Egeland says the violence is costing too many civilian lives and he has called on both sides to stop.

"It seems to be an excessive use of force in an area with so many civilians," he said.

"It makes it a violation of humanitarian law.

"What we do not know, for humanitarians, what was between these buildings, what military targets? But it seems excessive."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200607/s1694373.htm

Clearly, according to this, Israel - being a key player within the United Nations, is in factbreaking the protocols of the organisation whom it is a part of.

You say this stuff like Hezbollah hasn't done anything wrong and all the blame is on israel, hezbollah was first to cross israel sovereignty and kidnapped 2 soldiers and now they're firing rockets at cities that have no military targets.

Dogg dont even waste time anymore, they dont get it an never will. Why? i dont know probably cause CNN, Israeli propaganda an the christian right's propaganda have raised people to believe Israel can do whatever it wants and condeming their careless actions deems you "anti-sematic". Both sides make good point, both sides being the Pro Israeli an the Anti Israeli posters of this thread. I dont think anyone is condoning Hezbolla, I know i certianly do not BUT the bombardment an invasion of an entire country in the hope of routing these militants out is a waste of time and innocent human life. You'll never stop these people, NEVER. They are determined and bunkered down enough that Israel's bombing an artillery strikes are killing more innocents then militants. When one's killed theres 5 more there ready to take the ones place. Whats the solution? I dont know


If Hezbollas goal is for Israel to cease to exsist, then their fighting a unwinable battle, shit will never happen. If its to cohearse Israel into treating the palestinians better, then hell maybe but i doubt terrorism will work, terrorism has had its times in history when it has worked an brought the agressor to the bargining table, but in this case i dont think it will ever reach that level. Shit needs to change on both sides. The suicide bomings, kidnappings an rocket lobbing need to stop. And Israel needs to stop shooting lil kids cause "They may have a bomb", Stop bulldozing houses, and stop running a police state, withdraw from all Palestinian land period, then if the militants wish to still bitch after all that, round em up an ship em off to a remote island somewhere. The whole point im trying to make, Israel is not innocent, they commit horrible acts as well. I just believe people need to stop blindly supporting them. Nuff said

 

[PELLA]

war is war. There is no human violation. Its just highly controversial and frouned upon to bomb an apartment building per example. Thats why people are evacuating.

 

[Morris]

Stop bulldozing houses, and stop running a police state, withdraw from all Palestinian land period, then if the militants wish to still bitch after all that, round em up an ship em off to a remote island somewhere.

Look at what happened after the full withdrawal from Gaza. It's not as though Hamas has hidden its intentions: its founding charter calls for the destruction of the state and the murder of every Jew in the Middle East.

Anyway, Israel wants to move them off the border and cripple them as much as possible. I don't think anyone expects that Hezbollah can be completely destroyed. And saying Israel has invaded the entire country is a bit of an overstatement.