Israel appeared to have struck the site (U.N. observer post) deliberately.

Status
Not open for further replies.
#21
This is why civilian casualties occur: ( http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html )



The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.

Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon.

"Hezbollah came in to launch their rockets, then within minutes the area was blasted by Israeli jets," he said.

"Until the Hezbollah fighters arrived, it had not been touched by the Israelis. Then it was totally devastated.
And then Israel gets blamed for the casualties?
( http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/world/middleeast/28refugees.htm?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin )

“Hezbollah came to Ain Ebel to shoot its rockets,” said Fayad Hanna Amar, a young Christian man, referring to his village. “They are shooting from between our houses.”

“Please,’’ he added, “write that in your newspaper.”….

One woman, who would not give her name because she had a government job and feared retribution, said Hezbollah fighters had killed a man who was trying to leave Bint Jbail.

“This is what’s happening, but no one wants to say it” for fear of Hezbollah, she said.
And Israel is to blame for the casualties?

i dont know why you guys keep arguing with Morris. he has an extreme case of what i like to call "Ann Coulter-itis" which is a total inability to see or accept anyone's side other than their own
How ironic that you devote an entire post discussing my refusal to see or accept anyone's side without discussing my side or even giving us one of your own. I see everyone's side. I happen to disagree with a majority of the statements, and then back up why I disagree. If there were no disagreements, there'd be no message board.
 
#22
Morris said:
I happen to disagree with a majority of the statements, and then back up why I disagree.
no, you happen to disagree with anyone who suggests that Israel might be slightly in the wrong with their method of attack. i haven't been following the situation as closely as you guys here, so i refrain on making comments on things that i don't have the knowledge on. however, all io see in this thread is people pointing out that Israel's response to all this may be out of line, and your staunch refusal to believe that, even when its plain to everyone that their response is uncalled for. Does Israel have a right to defend themselves? of course they do. but when their military strategy seems to be "well, we know Hezbollah likes to hide in areas with dense population, so we'll bomb any area thats densely populated, regardless of the casualties it may cause, cuz we might kill a few of them," it's time to go back to the drawing board and work out a new strategy. of course civilian casualties are going to occur in war, but the idea is to minimize those casualties, not multiply them by heavily bombing areas of dense civilian population. But this is a fact you fail to acknowledge. according to you, any amount of civilian casualties are ok as long as they get the bad guys.

You also qualify for "Ann Coulter-itis" symptoms with your belief that anyone who says Israel may be in the wrong must be Hezbollah supporters. anytime someone points out something that Israel may have been wrong for, you counter with something about how Hezbollah did this or that, and insinuate that if you believe Israel is wrong, you must be on the side of Hezbollah. maybe if you read entire posts instead of taking what you want from them, you'd realize that no one is saying that Hezbollah is in the right, just that Israel is also in the wrong for their response. until you see that, its pointless for anyone to argue with you
.
 
#23
Morris said:
This is why civilian casualties occur: ( http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html )





And then Israel gets blamed for the casualties?
human shields?? i don't see anyone in the pic you posted that is complaining.
Did Israel really expect Hezb to stand clear in the open while you're planes are bombing them??

how about this for Human shield use??



And Israel is to blame for the casualties?
the familly of the slaughtered victims seem to think so.



But my favorite argument is when Israel accuses Hezbollah of cowerdness. I think you should read the comments of all the idf soldiers who survived the land clashes with Hezbollah.

or maybe you should notice that most of the dead and wounded idf soldiers were shot in the back. all of them were running away like rabbits.

Finally, why would Hezbollah use human shields since they know you are more than willing to kill innocent people???

consistency...
 
#24
human shields?? i don't see anyone in the pic you posted that is complaining.
They're firing about a city block away from an apartment building.

But my favorite argument is when Israel accuses Hezbollah of cowerdness. I think you should read the comments of all the idf soldiers who survived the land clashes with Hezbollah.
Actually, Israel didn't call Hezbollah cowardly. The United Nations humanitarian head Jan Egeland called their use of human shields cowardly. ( http://www.brandonsun.com/story.php?story_id=26632 )

And to be more specific, nobody's commenting on the personal courage of Hezbollah's fighters. It obviously takes a ton of courage to face Israel because the IDF is one of the best military forces on the planet. People, including me, are complain about Hezbollah's tactics.

Finally, why would Hezbollah use human shields since they know you are more than willing to kill innocent people???
The higher the civilian death toll goes, the more pressure is placed on Israel to halt the offensive. Moreover, even though Hezbollah is by law responsible for civilian casualties incurred by using them as human shields, Israel inevitably gets blamed for casualties caused by its reprisals. Why else would Hezbollah operate in densely crowded zones?

But this is a fact you fail to acknowledge. according to you, any amount of civilian casualties are ok as long as they get the bad guys.
The irony of this is that Israel is one of the few countries in the world that risks the lives of its own soldiers to minimize civilian casualties. Why does Israel have the IDF go house to house fighting Hezbollah in the villages on the border when they could completely destroy everything within 20 miles by air? And yet we have people in here calling Israelis scared rabbits.
 

Glockmatic

Well-Known Member
#26
Khaled said:
then Hezbollah is to blame as well as israel for this attack. Israel's diplomat to the UN said that they have videos of hezbollah shooting rockets into israel from buildings in quana, if those videos are released we'll see if its true or not

I think they've called for a 48 hour cease to air raids for humanitarians to go into southern lebanon

edit: Yep, confirmed 48 hours of cease-fire
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#27
Are Hezbollah swines for hiding in residential areas? Yup.

Are the IDF a bunch of swines for irresponsibly levelling the place? Yup.


And we're done!
 
#28
Are the IDF a bunch of swines for irresponsibly levelling the place? Yup.
Placing moral equivalence between terrorists using human shields to aim at civilians and military forces that retaliate by targeting them and incurring civilian casualties is crazy.

And for the people wondering why Hezbollah uses the population to hide, the 48 hour suspension is Exhibit A. Israel stands to lose everything they could have gained in this offensive because of pressure brought to bear on them for civilian casualties, when everyone knows that it'll just be a matter of time before Hezbollah starts firing at them again and starting the whole thing over again.

And Hezbollah gets away with this because people incorrectly blame Israel for the casualties.
 
#29
Lol arguing with Morris really is like bashing your head in a wall... It's pointless and it only hurts you... Dude is like unable to even consider the Israeli goverment is wrong in anyway! it's cool though, i'm appreciative some of you are able to see both sides of the story, and not just one... Morris, you're an e-soldier... fight on homie!
 

TecK NeeX

On Probation: Please report break in guidelines to
#30
Morris said:
And for the people wondering why Hezbollah uses the population to hide, the 48 hour suspension is Exhibit A. Israel stands to lose everything they could have gained in this offensive because of pressure brought to bear on them for civilian casualties, when everyone knows that it'll just be a matter of time before Hezbollah starts firing at them again and starting the whole thing over again.

And Hezbollah gets away with this because people incorrectly blame Israel for the casualties.

One Question Morris. If there were hizbollah fighters hiding among those civilians in Qana how come the 60 dead are children, women and the elderly and not a single hizbollah fighter killed in that air strike? If there were hizbollah fighters hiding there the majority of the dead would be Hizbollah fighters yet they found none not even one, infact they did not find a single piece of evidence indicating that any kind of hizbollah activity was going on in that area, no rockets, no launchers and fighters, just civilians = fact


Also Isreal does not care about civilians whatsoever, They'd bomb that area regardless of civilians or not, Hizbollah clearly knows this, Why on Earth would hizbollah hide among them knowing israel would strike them anyway? Whats the point?

That video of a "rocket' being fired from Lebanon shown all over israeli television and american media in no way proves that it was fired from Qana, It could have been taped being fired from anywhere in lebanon.
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#31
Morris said:
Placing moral equivalence between terrorists using human shields to aim at civilians and military forces that retaliate by targeting them and incurring civilian casualties is crazy.

Not really. The bomb still came from under an Israeli airplane wing, didn't it? Just because Hezbollah are dishonourable doesn't mean the IDF is promptly cleared of all responsibility.
 

TecK NeeX

On Probation: Please report break in guidelines to
#32
One more thing, Fact is, Isreal could invade Lebanon with ground forces and attempt to degrade or eliminate hizbollah with very little Lebanese civilian casualties, however, that strategy will result in high Israeli military casualties, which Israel is not willing to suffer. Just like what happened 6 years ago when Hizbollah forced the israelis out of lebanon with daily bombardment which lead to the israelis withdrawing. Instead this time they randomly bomb targets reducing half the country to rubble in hopes of catching a few bad guys along with hundreds of civilians and displacing nearly a milling lebanese.

IDF = Biggest fucking cowards on Earth
 

Glockmatic

Well-Known Member
#33
That video of a "rocket' being fired from Lebanon shown all over israeli television and american media in no way proves that it was fired from Qana, It could have been taped being fired from anywhere in lebanon.
its actually video of examples of Hezbollah firing rockets from inside cities and around civilian buildings. They also have video of katyusha rocket launchers weaving through alleyways to avoid the israeli gunship
 
#34
Its always been clear and is even more clear now that Israel does not care about arab civilians. Israel's actions from the start of this situation have been reprehensible to say the least. As somebody said earlier, when there is a war civilian casualties need to be minimized and military strategies need to be re-thought when civilian casualties are high. If the Israelis were concerned about civilians then they would conduct more ground assualts on Hezbollah strongholds instead of blindly bombing the shit out of a country that many people claim to be the most beautiful country in the world. The fact is that Israel's strategy is to inflict the most amount of damage possible before they have to stop. Fuck Hezbollah as well. It is no secret that Israel retaliates with excessive fucking force, they have done it before and they did it again. Fuck Hezbollah because they dont give a shit about anything but their own backward agenda, which is driven by a non-Arab nation, Iran. So fuck Hezbollah for selling out against their own people. Fuck Israel for being Israel and never getting blamed for anything. If any Arab country was on an offensive like this, WWIII would already be underway my friends.
 
#35
One Question Morris. If there were hizbollah fighters hiding among those civilians in Qana how come the 60 dead are children, women and the elderly and not a single hizbollah fighter killed in that air strike?
Even if no Hezbollah fighter was killed in that airstrike, and there's no way of 100% proving it, that doesn't mean Hezbollah wasn't using the area to fire missiles. Also, Hezbollah uses residential buildings and mosques to store their missiles, launchers and other weaponry, intentionally making military targets out of noncombatant zones (we've seen the same tactics in Iraq and Afghanistan).

infact they did not find a single piece of evidence indicating that any kind of hizbollah activity was going on in that area, no rockets, no launchers and fighters, just civilians = fact
That's not a fact. The IDF claims dozens of rockets were fired from Qana. We'll see what the probe says.

Also Isreal does not care about civilians whatsoever, They'd bomb that area regardless of civilians or not,
If Israel didn't care about civilians, why drop leaflets and announce over loud speakers telling civilians to flee the towns before they're attacked? Israel dampened the possible effectiveness of its operations to allow civilians to get out.

Civilians have had several days to get out of southern Lebanon. If Israel wanted to indiscriminately slaughter civilians (and how does that make sense anyway because they're fighting Hezbollah, not the Lebanese?), how would there be an average of 30 casualties a day when an estimated 750,000 are refugees? Also, with a death toll set at 600-700, Hezbollah claims it's lost 35 fighers and Israel claims it's killed over 200 Hezbollah fighters. If you want to believe Hezbollah's count, go ahead, but I don't.

Why on Earth would hizbollah hide among them knowing israel would strike them anyway? Whats the point?
We've been over this several times. Hezbollah knows that, even though they're responsible by law for damage done to human shields, the blame will be placed on Israel by most of the world (and most of the people in here). Thus, the best way to stop the Israeli offensive is to ensure as many civilian casualties as possible until the international community steps in and forces Israel to halt. We already saw the strike on Qana force Israel to halt attacks for a few hours.

Most guerrila forces use the civilian population like this, for a reason. It's their most effective tactic.

Not really. The bomb still came from under an Israeli airplane wing, didn't it? Just because Hezbollah are dishonourable doesn't mean the IDF is promptly cleared of all responsibility.
Do you think a target can no longer be considered a military target if there's a noncombatant there? If Israel bombs a building storing missiles or launchers or launch pads, and there's a noncombatant in the building, is it irresponsible? Is it irresponsible if there are 5 noncombatants? 10? At what point do you consider it irresponsible?
And if you consider all of the above irresponsible, how exactly should Israel being fighting Hezbollah when Hezbollah is intentionally hiding behind civilians?

If Israeli civilians are being targeted and maimed by rockets being launched from a residential zone in Lebanon, it's Israel's responsibility to stop the rocket fire and protect its citizens.

One more thing, Fact is, Isreal could invade Lebanon with ground forces and attempt to degrade or eliminate hizbollah with very little Lebanese civilian casualties, however, that strategy will result in high Israeli military casualties, which Israel is not willing to suffer.
Israel has used ground forces going house to house along the border villages to try to uproot Hezbollah. They have suffered dozens of casualties, when the most effective military method would have been to absolutely level the entire village from the air and suffer no casualties. Most countries would be outraged if their military unnecessarily incurred casualties on their side to minimize casualties on the other side.

Instead this time they randomly bomb targets reducing half the country to rubble in hopes of catching a few bad guys along with hundreds of civilians and displacing nearly a milling lebanese.
For all this talk about leveling the country, the fact is that the attacks on Beirut have only been to about 10% of the city.

If the Israelis were concerned about civilians then they would conduct more ground assualts on Hezbollah strongholds instead of blindly bombing the shit out of a country that many people claim to be the most beautiful country in the world.
Ground assaults do not automatically end civilian casualties. Especially if the reports about Hezbollah stopping people from fleeing is true. And it's the IDF's responsibility to protect its own people, including their own soldiers.
 
#36
Give a message to the people to evacuate, then watch them evacuate and blow up a van full of innocent people! That's truly caring about human life. Morris, do you have a lack of reasoning in your brain? Or do you just get paid monthly to spread this propaganda? You seem to not be able to admit any wrong doing on Israeli's side...But how is that possible, how can a country not be wrong in anyway? It's really ironic how the Holocaust victims are now responsible themselves for the deaths of thousands of innocent lives. I guess, if you were killed... it's ok to kill
 

Kareem

Active Member
#37
Tru Principle said:
Give a message to the people to evacuate, then watch them evacuate and blow up a van full of innocent people! That's truly caring about human life. Morris, do you have a lack of reasoning in your brain? Or do you just get paid monthly to spread this propaganda? You seem to not be able to admit any wrong doing on Israeli's side...But how is that possible, how can a country not be wrong in anyway? It's really ironic how the Holocaust victims are now responsible themselves for the deaths of thousands of innocent lives. I guess, if you were killed... it's ok to kill

I gotta agree that seems ta be the main consensous here Morris is that most of us can admit the wrong doings of Hezabolla or Palestinian suicide bombers, Hamas an ect. But you seem to have a real hard time acknowledging any wrong doing on Israels part, not just in this conflict but in any. Your justifing mass civilian casualties is like us justifying Hitler,Georbels "Finnal Solution" well hell they gave Jews a warning to vacate the father land right? So same difference. Only I dont believe any sane person would say so, we all know what was done in Nazi Germany was wrong anyway back on topic. Either Israel's Intellegence source is extremly shitty an inacurate or they simply dont give a rats ass who they kill, which one is it? Everytime they bomb a so called "target" very rarely do they hit that target unless of course its an old man in a wheel chair then fair game huh?


As far as the "probe" like an Israeli probe is really gonna reflect anything negative, thats like Hitler not killing himself attending the Hindenburg Trials an saying he had no knowledge, it was an accident an he'll be sure to probe into the issue. That example is fiction just as Israel's "probe" into the bombing is fiction. Nothing will come of it an they'll say they were justified an you'll back em up. Everything with Israel is an accident, Attacked a U.S. War ship in 1967 an mistook it for an Egyptian Horse Carrier! How? I have not a clue, appearntly Vision seems to be an issue with Israelies, better conduct a medical study on that one! But thats awhole different thread that didnt take off unfortunately :angry: Anyway i dunno how many pages this thread is now, its a great debate but unfortunately I just dont understand why you cant seem to ever acknowledge that sometimes Israel is just wrong, just as wrong as Hamas, Hezabolla an ect. Peace
 

Glockmatic

Well-Known Member
#38
You guys need to stop equating Israel to Nazi Germany, this is nowhere near the actions of Hitler.

There are people in here that are too one-sided, you guys need to see both sides of this conflict
 

EDouble

Will suck off black men for a dime
#39
all I know is from years of browsin and some times gettin in arguments here in w.o.w
Morris brings his A game every post
 
#40
Everything with Israel is an accident, Attacked a U.S. War ship in 1967 an mistook it for an Egyptian Horse Carrier! How? I have not a clue, appearntly Vision seems to be an issue with Israelies, better conduct a medical study on that one! But thats awhole different thread that didnt take off unfortunately
Nobody's stopping you from contributing as frequently to the Liberty thread as possible :D I'll probably reply to every post you make.

As for how it happened, just read the Liberty thread again. It's spelled out in detail. The Liberty was not a war ship. It was an intelligence ship on the edge of international waters that the Americans hadn't told the Israelis about, which happened to be in waters customarily used for Egyptian supply routes. Other than being 200 feet longer, the Liberty's bow line resembled the Egyptian ship's, and Egypt commonly used Western markings on their boats for the sake of confusion.

I gotta agree that seems ta be the main consensous here Morris is that most of us can admit the wrong doings of Hezabolla or Palestinian suicide bombers, Hamas an ect. But you seem to have a real hard time acknowledging any wrong doing on Israels part,
You don't have a problem acknowledging the wrong doings of Hezbollah because they are intentionally firing rockets at Israeli cities away from the front lines. The difference between us is that when Hezbollah uses densely populated places to fire rockets at Israeli cities and the IDF hits those places to quell the rocket fire, you blame Israel for the casualties and I blame Hezbollah. If it makes you feel better, your opinion is the majority one across the international community, but that doesn't mean I think it's the right one, and a majority opinion or even a consensus one on this board hardly makes my opinion any less correct (or incorrect to you).

Your justifing mass civilian casualties is like us justifying Hitler,Georbels "Finnal Solution" well hell they gave Jews a warning to vacate the father land right? So same difference.
That's a terrible analogy. The Nazis shipped Jews from all over Europe to concentration camps in Germany, Poland and other places. Expelling them from Europe is quite a bit different than gassing and shooting 6 million of them. If you think any of this is comparable to Nazi Germany, you need to read some World War II history books.

As far as the "probe" like an Israeli probe is really gonna reflect anything negative, thats like Hitler not killing himself attending the Hindenburg Trials an saying he had no knowledge, it was an accident an he'll be sure to probe into the issue.
Well, I don't think Hitler would have been interested in an investigation of possible Russian spies (you meant the Nuremberg Trials), but your opinion is noted. Perhaps you have reason not to believe the findings of Israel's probe, although past Israeli probes have found fault amongst their officials. At the same time, since we know Hezbollah fighters are operating without uniforms, should we automatically believe them when they say they've lost 35 guerrillas? How do we know that some of the casualties being counted as civilians weren't Hezbollah fighters?

unfortunately I just dont understand why you cant seem to ever acknowledge that sometimes Israel is just wrong, just as wrong as Hamas, Hezabolla an ect. Peace
If you dig hard enough you can find examples of Israeli policy being wrong. The Oslo Accords were obviously a huge mistake, and Camp David in 2000 was a fiasco. In 2003 an Israeli soldier shot a Palestinian toddler in the head at a checkpoint (he claimed it was an accidental discharge, but I don't know whatever happened to the case). Israel has made poor policy decisions, and there have certainly been instances where Israelis have made mistakes.

But comparing Israel to Hamas and Hezbollah is absurd. One fights for its survival while the others fight to destroy it. These groups spent months tunneling under the Israeli border for the assaults that started this fighting, and Israel is fighting back in self defense. Israel is not in the wrong for this.

Give a message to the people to evacuate, then watch them evacuate and blow up a van full of innocent people! That's truly caring about human life. Morris, do you have a lack of reasoning in your brain?
Yes, Israel blew up roads and bridges, since they were transportation routes to Syria. Yes, unfortunately that caused the deaths of civilians fleeing. But destroying transportation routes is of vital military necessity to make sure Hezbollah isn't resupplied, armed or financed by Syria/Iran.

It's really ironic how the Holocaust victims are now responsible themselves for the deaths of thousands of innocent lives. I guess, if you were killed... it's ok to kill
A huge majority of the Jews in Israel are descended from ancestors who were expelled from Arab countries in the 1940s. Most of the Jews that came to Israel from Europe did so before and during the Holocaust.

Your attempt to tie Israel and the Holocaust together is unnecessary anyway, since the Holocaust affected Jews everywhere, not Israelis (Israel didn't even exist yet). And Israel these days is comprised of a million Arabs and thousands of Bedouins. When Hezbollah rockets killed two Israeli boys a few weeks ago, they were Arabs. Nasrallah called them martyrs for the Palestinian cause.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Donate

Any donations will be used to help pay for the site costs, and anything donated above will be donated to C-Dub's son on behalf of this community.

Members online

No members online now.
Top