Technology Apple

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Looks like they didn't really compare it to business models, only cheaper laptops. I wouldn't believe that a low-end Acer is more reliable than a Thinkpad or Elitebook and most people looking for reliability would get one of those.
Anyway from those they compared it to it's no wonder, the Macbook pro is also the most expensive so I'd only assume decent quality control. Also overall I think Macbooks are pretty good these days, minus the price for what they offer.
However if Microsoft screws up Windows 9 as they did with Windows 8 and keep the same UI, my next laptop is likely to be a Macbook.
New Lenovo laptops aren't as awesome as they used to and Microsoft is making Windows retarded.I need a tool allowing me to keep my productivity high when I'm on my laptop. My desktop PC is for fun stuff.
For the first time ever a Macbook running MacOS might offer better productivity mostly because Microsoft is screwing up.
 

THEV1LL4N

Well-Known Member
Looks like they didn't really compare it to business models, only cheaper laptops. I wouldn't believe that a low-end Acer is more reliable than a Thinkpad or Elitebook and most people looking for reliability would get one of those.
Anyway from those they compared it to it's no wonder, the Macbook pro is also the most expensive so I'd only assume decent quality control. Also overall I think Macbooks are pretty good these days, minus the price for what they offer.
However if Microsoft screws up Windows 9 as they did with Windows 8 and keep the same UI, my next laptop is likely to be a Macbook.
New Lenovo laptops aren't as awesome as they used to and Microsoft is making Windows retarded.I need a tool allowing me to keep my productivity high when I'm on my laptop. My desktop PC is for fun stuff.
For the first time ever a Macbook running MacOS might offer better productivity mostly because Microsoft is screwing up.
How about a Lenovo that you are satisfied with + Ubuntu?

Also, any news on SSD prices? They are far too expensive right now. I hope the prices fall within the next year.
 

dilla

Trumpfan17 aka Coonie aka Dilla aka Tennis Dog
Looks like they didn't really compare it to business models, only cheaper laptops. I wouldn't believe that a low-end Acer is more reliable than a Thinkpad or Elitebook and most people looking for reliability would get one of those.
Anyway from those they compared it to it's no wonder, the Macbook pro is
also the most expensive so I'd only assume decent quality control. Also overall I think Macbooks are pretty good these days, minus the price for what they offer.
However if Microsoft screws up Windows 9 as they did with Windows 8 and keep the same UI, my next laptop is likely to be a Macbook.
New Lenovo laptops aren't as awesome as they used to and Microsoft is making Windows retarded.I need a tool allowing me to keep my productivity high when I'm on my laptop. My desktop PC is for fun stuff.
For the first time ever a Macbook running MacOS might offer better productivity mostly because Microsoft is screwing up.

I think you're just now noticing M$ screwing up. I like Win7....because I was on Vista for 3 years. It's all relative. XP was great and stable for me, but Vista was just a dark cloud that made Win7 all the more sweeter. But 7 really didn't compare to OSX. At least not in my books.

As Apple is trying incorporate the mobile features of its products, like apps, scrolling/gestures, and downloadable updates to the OS (major updates), Windows is trying to play catch up and failing miserably. I still can't tell you what Surface is or what OS it runs or how much it costs. You probably couldn't tell me exclusive apps that the Surface has that makes it THE tablet to have. But these struggles are not recent. Not the last year or two either. It has been a long time coming. Apple may have a lot of catching up to do in the mobile market, but it owns the PC market. Forget overall sales because M$ owns the corporate world. But that too is changing. Instead, look at what today's tech people use to stay productive. Does anyone read Wired? I get their magazine and they were doing pieces on 20+ up and coming people in the tech world. You know what was in the background of every profile picture? An Apple product. I shit you not. From iPads to iMacs and MacBook Pros. From music, to productivity apps and everything in between. All ran Apple's OS. I don't care what the sorority girls on your campus use their MacBooks for; Apple is slowly taking over that aspect of computing as well.

I posted the article just to share something interesting. I would never run Windows on my Mac. OK, I shouldn't say "never" but I have not had to since owning it. I deleted my Boot Camp partition. Any program I have seen for Windows and thought "shit, I wish I had that" there was an OSX alternative that was also free. I feel the OS is intuitive for me (but I could also be a retard, so...) and that gestures and other stuff the OS has to offer suit me better.

I will say that while the components Apple uses for its low-end models are a rip-off, but I will gladly pay extra (or have daddy do it) to ensure that my notebook lasts me a long time. I believe it has actually been three years to this day that I have had my MBP and not one thing has gone wrong yet. The worst is cosmetic change, where the area I rest my right wrist is starting to lose some paint from the aluminum body but that's not a big deal. I haven't even had to reinstall OSX yearly, like may Windows users suggest, to keep it running smooth. In the next few months, I'll shell out $50 for 8GB of RAM and maybe a 256GB SSD and put my HDD in my optic drive bay and double my storage that way. As long as my MBP works, I don't think I'll ever upgrade it if I get 8 GB of RAM and the SSD. Why would I? It would not be significantly slower than any new Apple or Windows machine that gets released.

The factor being build quality. That's what you pay extra for. If there are Windows users that have had their notebooks for more than 3 years, I automatically assume all they do is check email and browse the web and that's it. 30 minutes a day, then they shut it off and put their computer into hiding until the next day. No one I know that still uses a PC has had their PC for more than two years. They are always coming from a PC that had something wrong it, like the charger port fried or the motherboard shat the bed, or whatever.
 

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
How about a Lenovo that you are satisfied with + Ubuntu?

Also, any news on SSD prices? They are far too expensive right now. I hope the prices fall within the next year.
I like my Lenovo laptop but it's getting slow for some tasks, it has an ultra low voltage Intel processor which is getting too slow for me and an SSD already in. Prices for 128gb SSDs are quite fine already. They're expected to drop steadily though. There's a very decent Samsung 840 SSD which is not really that expensive and is very fast.

They are always coming from a PC that had something wrong it, like the charger port fried or the motherboard shat the bed, or whatever.
It's because people tend to buy shitty products. With Apple it's quite easy, with other companies you are buying from a OEM and having a choice means you might buy a shitty thing, which most people do, because the choice is quite big and people are tempted to buy by price, specs or whatever a silly salesman tells them to. And people have no idea nor do they research before buying.
I find it funny how people are making their choices. There are serious companies releasing great products and I find it funny that even some of them need that shitty mainstream product just to stay in business, because people don't know better.
Apple's success is that you're paying a ridiculous price just for making sure that the product you're buying is at least not ridiculously shitty. The biggest choice an Apple buyer has to make is whether they want the Air or Pro. With Windows OEMs people are actually expected to make some basic research or know what they're doing. Turns out for most people it's too much.

I don't want to bash specific people again but I noticed this especially in America - with K-marts, Walmarts and people shopping for electronics there. These stores don't even sell good electronics, which I find really funny. They sell things that would be hard to find for me in Europe, they're so shitty.
Same thing with restaurants - you have these great restaurants offering a wide variety of great food and what do most people do? They order burgers.
To make someone eat something less shitty you have to send him to a restaurant with very limited choice of dishes, that does not offer burgers though, so it offers only salads but for higher price than the competing restaurant. That's basically what Apple does in the computer world. They are forcing people to do things their specific way so their stupidity doesn't harm them and they end up satisfied with that fact in the end. After all it's an easier way than teaching people how to do things and use their world of possibilities and choices for their own advantage.

Also back to your original sentence I can say the same comparing Thinkpads with all the other Acer and other lower-end mainstream products. I have a 2003 IBM Thinkpad that I gave to my mom and it works flawlessly. I installed a 64gb ssd there and it's ridiculously smooth and works just as it did when it was new. I know people who didn't ask for help when buying their laptops, bought shitty ones that broke after 2 years or so.
My Thinkpad is an ultrabook and it's getting slow only because I use it for CPU intensive tasks, not casual stuff at all. I need a full fledged CPU after all. If I was just browsing and doing casual stuff I could easily use this laptop for 5 or more years.

Now back to Microsoft screwing up, Vista was a fail but they fixed it with Windows 7 and imho Windows 7 was the best operating system there was. It's a Windows, meaning it runs everything and at the same time it's extremely pleasant to use - it does everything for you and you're just left to do your work, and it allows you to do it the quickest at the same time because frankly - the desktop's UI is the best I can imagine for quick work and switching between programs/tasks and work organization.
With time, however new Windows systems are going to have a lot of under the hood improvements, even Windows 8 does. So Windows 7 is going to feel outdated. But Microsoft have never screwed up as much as they do right about now with their products, Windows 8 is just the pinnacle of their stupidity in making decisions. Frankly I'm glad it sells worse than Vista, because Microsoft would assume that if you're paying it means that they are doing things right. While it's quite obvious I'm happy that companies are not buying Windows 8. Because at some point I will just have to switch and looking at the current way things are going I might not have a reasonable option in the Windows camp. Maybe if this shit won't sell Microsoft will have to take a glance what's really happening outside of their asses and does something right again.
I'm not a casual silly person using my computer for nothing but browsing and social networks, nor is an average power user or business user. I don't run 1 thing at a time. At that point Vista would be like the second coming of christ compared to Windows 8 - while it was annoying its users with stupid shit at least the UI was constant and the usability was quite high. Which is not the case with Windows 8, which comes with a lot of improvements but ruins the usability and is aimed at silly people using their computers slow and for things not much more complicated than facebook or angry birds.
 

Pittsey

Knock, Knock...
Staff member
I don't like the majority of people who buy Apple products. They are not techy, but people who follow trends and fashions. Although... They don't follow clothing fashions.

In other words. They are cunts.

Except Sofi and Coonie, of course. ;)
 

dilla

Trumpfan17 aka Coonie aka Dilla aka Tennis Dog
Damn, I looked back at some of my posts in this and the Android thread and thought.. if only I were as fast with my university thesis..
I know. Some times it amazes me how much I can type in 10-15 minutes on opinion rather than something I'm given a prompt to write for.


I like my Lenovo laptop but it's getting slow for some tasks, it has an ultra low voltage Intel processor which is getting too slow for me and an SSD already in. Prices for 128gb SSDs are quite fine already. They're expected to drop steadily though. There's a very decent Samsung 840 SSD which is not really that expensive and is very fast.

I am looking at a Sandisk 256GB for about $150. It is US prices though, so I'm not sure if you'd be able to get in on it.


It's because people tend to buy shitty products. With Apple it's quite easy, with other companies you are buying from a OEM and having a choice means you might buy a shitty thing, which most people do, because the choice is quite big and people are tempted to buy by price, specs or whatever a silly salesman tells them to. And people have no idea nor do they research before buying.

Some people just want the computer to do basic things. Whether they buy a Mac or a Windows machine, that just depends on how much money they have to spend on it. Rich people and poor people alike still have to browse the web and check their email. All that differentiates them is their expendable income and perhaps what is pleasing to their eyes. I don't have anything to back this up but I would venture to say that most of the people that do comprise the part of the market that does look into what products they are buying and their quality only make up a very small portion of the market. Everybody else is just out there to get themselves a cheap machine that will get the job done for their simple tasks. Apple and Windows can check email and browse the web and word process, probably, identically.


I find it funny how people are making their choices. There are serious companies releasing great products and I find it funny that even some of them need that shitty mainstream product just to stay in business, because people don't know better.
Apple's success is that you're paying a ridiculous price just for making sure that the product you're buying is at least not ridiculously shitty. The biggest choice an Apple buyer has to make is whether they want the Air or Pro. With Windows OEMs people are actually expected to make some basic research or know what they're doing. Turns out for most people it's too much.

Exactly. For someone, such as yourself, buying a computer is comprised of many different criteria to look at before making a purchase. But how much thought would you put into buying wood for your house or tiles for your floor if you are remodeling your home? Someone that is very interested and fascinated by home remodeling and the supplies and equipment needed for it would probably ridicule you for going for the cheapest and simplest tiles. But you on the other hand really would not care and would just want to get the job done. Take this analogy and apply it to the average person who really does not care about the specifications of their phones, tablets, or even their computers and think about how much time they would put into researching the specifications of their electronics? If they do not care and they buy a crappy product, it probably will not affect them if said crappy product does not perform up to par. If you try to convince them that a $300 Acer is shit and they should instead spring for a more reliable OEM, like Lenovo, they would just assume you were trying to rip them off to the tune of $400+.

We are just not experts on EVERYTHING in this world, so we don't see that some of the decisions we make about things in less than five minutes are actually decisions some people spend months on. Whether it be dresses, shoes, or shit for their homes. And when we buy the simple components or something, they too feel that we are making uninformed decisions.

So when it comes to electronics, something we know a little bit about, we know what we want and how much we are willing to pay for it. For everyone else, they just walk into Best Buy, find one that fits their budget and get it. My dad is like this and gets suckered so many fucking times, even when I'm with him, which is how I know there are people like that.


I don't want to bash specific people again but I noticed this especially in America - with K-marts, Walmarts and people shopping for electronics there. These stores don't even sell good electronics, which I find really funny. They sell things that would be hard to find for me in Europe, they're so shitty.

People of all socio-economic backgrounds shop at Wal-Mart. I know I do. Poor people shop their for electronics, FOR THE MOST PART. I would buy video games and such from there. Those are pretty standard. When it comes to other stuff, it's a crapshoot. Laptops, or sure, are very limited and therefore probably stick to the lower-end of the spectrum. Where else are poor people going to get a computer from $250-$500? Best Buy would still overcharge them for the same models, and may not even carry those models because they would make no money off of them.

This holds true for other electronics too, like cameras and TVs. I think the comparison you draw is because the US has so many choices, it tends to dilute the market. In places like Europe, and I think you even mentioned Poland, there is no Apple store, and just "authorized resellers." Unheard of, there in the States. Most "resellers" are online, like MacMall. I guess Best Buy would count as a reseller too, but resellers are not the primary means of distribution, I don't think. I still think Apple.com and the Apple Store sell more.

But what that means is not only do you pay more for Apple products, but you have to do a lot of work, relative to Americans, to get them. There's also that risk of buying from a reseller and if something goes wrong, it's gonna need to be shipped elsewhere, which could be expensive.

But also what price reference are you using to determine the value of Apple's products? I understand Apple is expensive outside of the US, but these are US prices for a MacBook Air.


I would argue that these are reasonable prices, knowing the quality of Apple products. Again, sure, the hardware and specs may not be up to par, but there is at least an option to modify it. It will jack up the price, yes, but you are not limited to shit specs, at least. And 4 GB is plenty for OSX. I don't think I could say the same for Windows after having used 6GB notebooks and seeing no difference between a 12GB RAM machine and my MBP when doing the daily tasks that I do.
 

dilla

Trumpfan17 aka Coonie aka Dilla aka Tennis Dog
Continued:

Same thing with restaurants - you have these great restaurants offering a wide variety of great food and what do most people do? They order burgers.
To make someone eat something less shitty you have to send him to a restaurant with very limited choice of dishes, that does not offer burgers though, so it offers only salads but for higher price than the competing restaurant. That's basically what Apple does in the computer world. They are forcing people to do things their specific way so their stupidity doesn't harm them and they end up satisfied with that fact in the end. After all it's an easier way than teaching people how to do things and use their world of possibilities and choices for their own advantage.

Sure, I'll agree many Americans are stupid and uneducated about many things, outside of world affairs. That's something I can not change. But I do agree and it's a shame that not only is our electronics market diluted with tard products, but food is as well. Burgers all taste the same to me.

Also back to your original sentence I can say the same comparing Thinkpads with all the other Acer and other lower-end mainstream products. I have a 2003 IBM Thinkpad that I gave to my mom and it works flawlessly. I installed a 64gb ssd there and it's ridiculously smooth and works just as it did when it was new. I know people who didn't ask for help when buying their laptops, bought shitty ones that broke after 2 years or so.
My Thinkpad is an ultrabook and it's getting slow only because I use it for CPU intensive tasks, not casual stuff at all. I need a full fledged CPU after all. If I was just browsing and doing casual stuff I could easily use this laptop for 5 or more years.

Yeah, I too am running a 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo on my three year old MBP. i5s were out then, but it was about $300 more at the time for the 13" model. I didn't think it would make that much of a difference, and I still believe the same. It just feels weird still having a 6+ year old processor; however it has handled everything I've thrown at it, including audio and image editing. So I' not complaining. Maybe some more RAM will help it out a bit, but nothing much outside of that. SSD is just for launching apps and booting the machine up faster.

Now back to Microsoft screwing up, Vista was a fail but they fixed it with Windows 7 and imho Windows 7 was the best operating system there was. It's a Windows, meaning it runs everything and at the same time it's extremely pleasant to use - it does everything for you and you're just left to do your work, and it allows you to do it the quickest at the same time because frankly - the desktop's UI is the best I can imagine for quick work and switching between programs/tasks and work organization.
With time, however new Windows systems are going to have a lot of under the hood improvements, even Windows 8 does. So Windows 7 is going to feel outdated. But Microsoft have never screwed up as much as they do right about now with their products, Windows 8 is just the pinnacle of their stupidity in making decisions. Frankly I'm glad it sells worse than Vista, because Microsoft would assume that if you're paying it means that they are doing things right. While it's quite obvious I'm happy that companies are not buying Windows 8. Because at some point I will just have to switch and looking at the current way things are going I might not have a reasonable option in the Windows camp. Maybe if this shit won't sell Microsoft will have to take a glance what's really happening outside of their asses and does something right again.
I'm not a casual silly person using my computer for nothing but browsing and social networks, nor is an average power user or business user. I don't run 1 thing at a time. At that point Vista would be like the second coming of christ compared to Windows 8 - while it was annoying its users with stupid shit at least the UI was constant and the usability was quite high. Which is not the case with Windows 8, which comes with a lot of improvements but ruins the usability and is aimed at silly people using their computers slow and for things not much more complicated than facebook or angry birds.

Right. What I was saying about OSX is that it has managed to blend the best of its mobile OS and its desktop OS and made OSX to be even better. M$ is trying the same thing with Win8 and its stupid tiles shit, and it's failing miserably. Apple didn't do something tacky like the tiles thing and therefore really doesn't have a mess on its hands like M$ does.
 

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Exactly. For someone, such as yourself, buying a computer is comprised of many different criteria to look at before making a purchase. But how much thought would you put into buying wood for your house or tiles for your floor if you are remodeling your home? Someone that is very interested and fascinated by home remodeling and the supplies and equipment needed for it would probably ridicule you for going for the cheapest and simplest tiles. But you on the other hand really would not care and would just want to get the job done. Take this analogy and apply it to the average person who really does not care about the specifications of their phones, tablets, or even their computers and think about how much time they would put into researching the specifications of their electronics? If they do not care and they buy a crappy product, it probably will not affect them if said crappy product does not perform up to par. If you try to convince them that a $300 Acer is shit and they should instead spring for a more reliable OEM, like Lenovo, they would just assume you were trying to rip them off to the tune of $400+.

We are just not experts on EVERYTHING in this world, so we don't see that some of the decisions we make about things in less than five minutes are actually decisions some people spend months on. Whether it be dresses, shoes, or shit for their homes. And when we buy the simple components or something, they too feel that we are making uninformed decisions.

So when it comes to electronics, something we know a little bit about, we know what we want and how much we are willing to pay for it. For everyone else, they just walk into Best Buy, find one that fits their budget and get it. My dad is like this and gets suckered so many fucking times, even when I'm with him, which is how I know there are people like that.
I think it doesn't take an expert. I think it comes down to doing basic research. I would certainly do basic research when buying tiles for my floor. I wouldn't spend a year educating myself on tile technology or whatnot but I'd ask a person who knows what's up or the least I'd do would be spending an hour or two reading which ones are decent. I always do research when buying something that's going to last me for a longer while.
I think it sucks that people are too lazy to do basic research. That leads to people buying shitty products and driving innovative markets the wrong way, because people are voting with their wallets. If most people buy what another newbie recommended or because of a fancy marketing campaign - that's wrong. It doesn't drive manufacturers to improve the quality or manufacture the best products. They have to sometimes ditch a good product in favor of a shittier one that people are more likely to buy.


People of all socio-economic backgrounds shop at Wal-Mart. I know I do. Poor people shop their for electronics, FOR THE MOST PART. I would buy video games and such from there. Those are pretty standard. When it comes to other stuff, it's a crapshoot. Laptops, or sure, are very limited and therefore probably stick to the lower-end of the spectrum. Where else are poor people going to get a computer from $250-$500? Best Buy would still overcharge them for the same models, and may not even carry those models because they would make no money off of them.
Most business students at my university are expected to write a longer text on WalMart, I had to as well. Despite all the crap when I was in the US I liked WalMart for basic shopping. I was frightened at the quality of electronics there though. All I wanted to buy was a thumb drive, and I didn't even do that because all they had was extreme crap. Seems like a lot of people buy electronics there after all. If someone wants a new 200-300$ laptop, no wonder they'll complain about it breaking in a year or two. They are mostly extremely shitty, even if made by reasonably reputable companies. It's just not a reasonable price range and if you have 200$ and need a laptop the best you can do is either buy an used one or not buy one at all because you're just going to lose 200$. Decent laptops start at 500-700$ depending on the deal and components, which is still half of what the Macbook Pro costs. You can buy a good laptop at 400$ but at that point you have to know precisely what to buy because most would be crap.


But also what price reference are you using to determine the value of Apple's products? I understand Apple is expensive outside of the US, but these are US prices for a MacBook Air.
Prices for Apple products in the US are much more reasonable but 1200$ + taxes for the cheapest 13 inch Macbook Air is a lot of cash. You can get a decent, full-fledged Thinkpad or Elitebook for that cash, which is going to be better, it just won't look as nice.
I mean, Macbooks these days are decent, but Apple's profit margins are super huge which makes them about the most expensive laptops and they're not the best at the same time. A very good laptop comparable to a 1500$ Macbook Pro in components and build quality would cost about 1000-1200$. Still that equals to 300$-500$ savings while having an equally good or sometimes better product.
For reference, the T-series Thinkpads with full 3rd gen i7 start at below 1000$, the i5 version is ~780$. The T-series Ultrabook is 779$. T-series Thinkpads are renowned as the highest quality business laptops.

~1200$ gets you the most expensive Thinkpad X1 Carbon, which is totally awesome - it's a 14inch ultrabook with a full fledged i5/i7 (not the ultra low voltage version). That's basically like the fastest Macbook Pro in a slightly bigger than Macbook Air body + a lot of extras that Thinkpads have and Macbooks don't, like 3g connectivity, carbon fiber body, trackpoint, 5 year warranty and stuff like that.
http://www.lenovo.com/products/us/laptop/thinkpad/x-series/x1-carbon/


Maybe some more RAM will help it out a bit, but nothing much outside of that. SSD is just for launching apps and booting the machine up faster.
I think SSD gives the biggest visible performance difference in a reasonably fast laptop. Everything will open up and close really, really faster. Switching between things, opening up pictures, videos etc. is much faster.

Right. What I was saying about OSX is that it has managed to blend the best of its mobile OS and its desktop OS and made OSX to be even better. M$ is trying the same thing with Win8 and its stupid tiles shit, and it's failing miserably. Apple didn't do something tacky like the tiles thing and therefore really doesn't have a mess on its hands like M$ does.
I'm not really sure about OSX implementing a lot of mobile features. I don't use OSX often but when I do I don't really see it as being inspired by mobile OS. iOS for mobile devices is very different and separate from the desktop OS. I think that's the good way for now.
Microsoft screwed up and wanted to make an OS that's going to be a desktop OS and mobile OS at the same time, and while it could be possible if done right, they kind of screwed up because in the end it's not good on mobile devices and not good on desktop computers.
 

dilla

Trumpfan17 aka Coonie aka Dilla aka Tennis Dog
I think it doesn't take an expert. I think it comes down to doing basic research. I would certainly do basic research when buying tiles for my floor. I wouldn't spend a year educating myself on tile technology or whatnot but I'd ask a person who knows what's up or the least I'd do would be spending an hour or two reading which ones are decent. I always do research when buying something that's going to last me for a longer while.
I think it sucks that people are too lazy to do basic research. That leads to people buying shitty products and driving innovative markets the wrong way, because people are voting with their wallets. If most people buy what another newbie recommended or because of a fancy marketing campaign - that's wrong. It doesn't drive manufacturers to improve the quality or manufacture the best products. They have to sometimes ditch a good product in favor of a shittier one that people are more likely to buy.

Most people would do what is considered "basic research" when buying a computer, then. If we are using your definition of it. Or at least I would like to assume that. People do use publications to make their decisions, like Consumer Reports or other review websites. They may even look at online customer reviews on Amazon before buying as well, to get an idea of what model they are looking for.

Like I said, people don't care enough about their electronics to do more research than that, but they do care enough that they hope something they spend a couple hundred dollars on will last them a decent amount of time.

If it came to tiles, would you dedicate enough time to researching all the brands out there? Because if you ask an "expert" they will still leave out obscure but good brands because they will just assume you don't even care about them because you've never heard of them. This is how Beats headphones probably get sold. Sure, we see celebs having them and peer pressure making us want them, but who is going to research the technology behind headphones? For laptops, how many people on the street do you think know the importance of more RAM vs a better processor? How many people think their internet connection is slow because of their computer and not just their connection/signal strength or the fact they have shitty 1Mbs internet at home and they're comparing it to 8Mbs WiFi they have on campus?

People don't know and don't care about everything they buy, including us. As much as you say you would research tiles and wood for a remodeling job, how much will you really know after a week or research? A month? Would you know as much as the "experts" would at Home Depot or Lowes? Same applies to technology, which is just as complex.




Most business students at my university are expected to write a longer text on WalMart, I had to as well. Despite all the crap when I was in the US I liked WalMart for basic shopping. I was frightened at the quality of electronics there though. All I wanted to buy was a thumb drive, and I didn't even do that because all they had was extreme crap. Seems like a lot of people buy electronics there after all. If someone wants a new 200-300$ laptop, no wonder they'll complain about it breaking in a year or two. They are mostly extremely shitty, even if made by reasonably reputable companies. It's just not a reasonable price range and if you have 200$ and need a laptop the best you can do is either buy an used one or not buy one at all because you're just going to lose 200$. Decent laptops start at 500-700$ depending on the deal and components, which is still half of what the Macbook Pro costs. You can buy a good laptop at 400$ but at that point you have to know precisely what to buy because most would be crap.

There is a hierarchy on thumb drives too? I have bought no-name brands and I just bought a 16GB Kingston Data Traveler for $10 and they both have served me well, not failing or anything. I think you might have been looking a bit too hard at it.

I had a HP laptop in 2007 that was about $1200. Had a C2D, 2 GB of RAM and an 80GB hard drive. Maybe I had an extended warranty too for two years? A little over two years later, I had my "ctrl" key popped off and a bum charge port that would cost $300 to repair. Sure HP sucks dick, but you give the simple rule of thumb as "decent laptops start at 500-700" and most people are inclined to think that their $1200 HP is gonna last until the end of time. So while it may be a good rule of thumb in most cases, there are exceptions. And the general public does not know them.


Prices for Apple products in the US are much more reasonable but 1200$ + taxes for the cheapest 13 inch Macbook Air is a lot of cash. You can get a decent, full-fledged Thinkpad or Elitebook for that cash, which is going to be better, it just won't look as nice.
I mean, Macbooks these days are decent, but Apple's profit margins are super huge which makes them about the most expensive laptops and they're not the best at the same time. A very good laptop comparable to a 1500$ Macbook Pro in components and build quality would cost about 1000-1200$. Still that equals to 300$-500$ savings while having an equally good or sometimes better product.
For reference, the T-series Thinkpads with full 3rd gen i7 start at below 1000$, the i5 version is ~780$. The T-series Ultrabook is 779$. T-series Thinkpads are renowned as the highest quality business laptops.

Lenovo definitely has a great reputation. I'm sure their sales are great too. But how many more people know about Dell, HP, and of course, Apple before Lenovo? People are supposed to be educated, right? How many do you think will know they were formerly IBM? People will flock to Lenovo if they've read JD Power or Consumer Reports reviews of the most dependable brands of laptops, but is every Lenovo the most reliable, or certain models? And at even at $1200, if people are buying a laptop to do basic things only, isn't that what Mac users get the rap for spending $1200 for too? So to get a quality Windows machine that is comparable to a Mac, you're paying $1000+ and while you do save about $200-500, if you're spending that much on a computer, wouldn't you spring for the even more reliable Apple product?

Keep in mind, OS upgrades and software for OSX is cheaper. An upgrade to Lion or Mountain Lion is $30-40. As is iWork. Win8 and Office are about $150+ each. So if you keep your machine for long beyond 2 years and you want to upgrade, this will be a factor as well.
 

dilla

Trumpfan17 aka Coonie aka Dilla aka Tennis Dog
~1200$ gets you the most expensive Thinkpad X1 Carbon, which is totally awesome - it's a 14inch ultrabook with a full fledged i5/i7 (not the ultra low voltage version). That's basically like the fastest Macbook Pro in a slightly bigger than Macbook Air body + a lot of extras that Thinkpads have and Macbooks don't, like 3g connectivity, carbon fiber body, trackpoint, 5 year warranty and stuff like that.
http://www.lenovo.com/products/us/laptop/thinkpad/x-series/x1-carbon/

3G connectivity is pretty cool but how many people will shell out extra for monthly plan? We already have phones and tablets that do this, and while some may like it on their notebooks, I think it's just overkill and I doubt it will catch on. Didn't netbooks do the same?

I would prefer the aluminum unibody of a MacBook over even carbon fiber on a computer. I think it sounds a bit silly. The metal shell of the MBs aid in heat dispersion. It's a neat little sorta-gimmick on Apple's behalf, but this gimmick actually serves a purpose and looks great while doing so.

I also can't get over the trackpad AND the physical buttons. It makes the workspace look more cluttered. I think it still goes to show that the trackpad of Macs is a lot more useful and intuitive than the ones on Windows OEMs. They still haven't figured it out, either M$ with the OS or OEMs with the hardware, and how to bring it up to speed to Apple's trackpad. I use the gestures way more than I even realize. I only realize it when I start using a Windows machine and look like a fool, swiping and tapping and using multiple fingers to complete tasks.


I think SSD gives the biggest visible performance difference in a reasonably fast laptop. Everything will open up and close really, really faster. Switching between things, opening up pictures, videos etc. is much faster.

Maybe I said it in my last post, but I as tempted as I am to spring for a faster CPU, that is all I feel inadequate about my MBP. It's still running a 2.4 GHz C2D and I wish it were in the current generation of CPUs, even though it hasn't really given me a problem thus far. I also wanted a dedicated GPU and not the 320M I have now. Even if I don't NEED it, I still want to be a bit more up to date with current releases.

Outside of a GPU and CPU, and maybe that nice-looking Retina screen, I think $240 for a 256GB SSD and 8GB of RAM will give me a machine that is very close to a low-end MB in boot up time and fluidity when moving about the OS. Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but simply put, I won't require a new machine for the next three years if I wanted.

That Retina display, though..... :eek:


I'm not really sure about OSX implementing a lot of mobile features. I don't use OSX often but when I do I don't really see it as being inspired by mobile OS. iOS for mobile devices is very different and separate from the desktop OS. I think that's the good way for now.
Microsoft screwed up and wanted to make an OS that's going to be a desktop OS and mobile OS at the same time, and while it could be possible if done right, they kind of screwed up because in the end it's not good on mobile devices and not good on desktop computers.


Well, the gestures are becoming more and more prominent within apps. This has been happening for a few years now, but you will always hear about it whenever a new iteration of OSX is introduced (how Apple is trying to unify iOS and OSX). There's the app store as well, which I believe is superior to Windows'. I can get OS upgrades and programs through the app store and not need to leave my house to go buy the disc, which would probably cost more. Similar to your phone or tablet.
 

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Like I said, people don't care enough about their electronics to do more research than that, but they do care enough that they hope something they spend a couple hundred dollars on will last them a decent amount of time.
So basically the biggest argument that I can see you making is that with Apple it's easy - you just pay the extra cash and are sure that the hardware you're getting will work without you having to care about making a choice.
I think I can agree with that. Outside of Apple every company offers major choice and products ranging all the way from cheap and shitty to high-end, and in every price range you have to know what you're buying.
In my opinion it doesn't make Apple the best choice. It makes it the Pizza Hut of "Italian" restaurants. It's good enough and quite good in quality, but there are better choices if you know what you're doing or care to ask.

Because if you ask an "expert" they will still leave out obscure but good brands because they will just assume you don't even care about them because you've never heard of them.
Well, if someone asked me for a reliable 1000$ laptop I'd just tell them to get the T-series Thinkpad. If someone asked me for the best 1500$ laptop I'd tell them to add more ram or bigger SSD, or just buy the initial version and save 500$. Sounds pretty easy.
Sure HP sucks dick, but you give the simple rule of thumb as "decent laptops start at 500-700" and most people are inclined to think that their $1200 HP is gonna last until the end of time
There's usually no rule of thumb for buying electronics though. I'd say in the 500-700 range you have to pick one that's going to be the best for you as well.

People don't know and don't care about everything they buy, including us. As much as you say you would research tiles and wood for a remodeling job, how much will you really know after a week or research? A month? Would you know as much as the "experts" would at Home Depot or Lowes? Same applies to technology, which is just as complex.
I think I'd know good enough not to buy a shitty product. Guys selling electronics at electronics stores are no experts, I bet I'd know more after a couple hours of research, coming from a relative newbie. I wouldn't need to know details about material chemistry. All it takes is to gather a lot of opinions and reviews, and compare which product seems to serve my needs the most while at the same time gaining 10 out of 10 reviews. I think I'd learn a lot in the process as well, so that sounds like a perfect thing to do.

Keep in mind, OS upgrades and software for OSX is cheaper. An upgrade to Lion or Mountain Lion is $30-40. As is iWork. Win8 and Office are about $150+ each. So if you keep your machine for long beyond 2 years and you want to upgrade, this will be a factor as well.
Microsoft's OS updates aren't as frequent and a 2010 OS is still very fresh, also a Windows 8 Pro upgrade if you're coming from Windows 7 or XP is 40$.
iWork is not MS Office though, and MS Office for Mac is also expensive. If it comes to great alternatives you can download Open Office and it's free.

So to get a quality Windows machine that is comparable to a Mac, you're paying $1000+ and while you do save about $200-500, if you're spending that much on a computer, wouldn't you spring for the even more reliable Apple product?
I wouldn't, I'm pretty sure the T-series Thinkpads are more reliable, not only cheaper. At that point picking either of these I'd know I'm getting the highest quality tech anyway, and T Thinkpads are technically superior laptops. I'd say with these Thinkpads you get what you pay for, while with Apple more cash ends up in their pockets - that's an annoying thought.

That's only an example though, because T-series Thinkpads is a specific, trusted line of products. These days I think the whole "company vs company" thing is a little outdated. It's usually about product vs. product these days. Apple is specific because it still serves the old-fashioned "I want a computer from company X" people. I don't think any person in the tech world who isn't ignorant could just say something like "buy Samsung/Sony/whatever" because each of these companies have amazing products as well as shitty products. You see these silly trolls on the message boards saying "Samsung sucks, Sony rules, only Sony!" - that's how you tell that someone is an idiot. There are maybe a few LINES of products that are worth recommending, like the Galaxy S series (although there are shitty phones there as well, like the Galaxy S Advanced or PLUS versions of phones). Xperia line? Mostly shitty phones with just a few very decent models.
LG releases shitty phones with maybe 2-3 good models a year. Saying "buy LG/Sony/Samsung" would be a suicide and a very stupid thing to do.

However each of these companies have at least 1 product that is better and cheaper than Apple's best Iphone, you just have to know which one it is. Same story with laptops.
Buying a product it's important to forget all the silly prejudice and go for a product that at that specific point in time seems to serve your needs best. It's different with Apple though, because they only have a few products, which severely limits your choices, you know that you're going to pay too much for what you're getting, but you know it's not going to be a bad product. It's paying too much for just not having to care or educate yourself and not having to worry because Apple can afford not having shitty (low-end) products. They basically have these one-size-fits-all products for people who are afraid of custom tailored ones. It's a safe but lazy choice and you're paying more for making it.

3G connectivity is pretty cool but how many people will shell out extra for monthly plan? We already have phones and tablets that do this, and while some may like it on their notebooks, I think it's just overkill and I doubt it will catch on. Didn't netbooks do the same?
You don't have to use it, it's just something Thinkpads often include, being also business computers. Here in Europe it might sound like a much better idea as many countries offer free wireless 3G internet Sim cards thanks to EU's informatization program. Technically you have the internet 24/7 without having to care about looking for open wifi.


I would prefer the aluminum unibody of a MacBook over even carbon fiber on a computer. I think it sounds a bit silly. The metal shell of the MBs aid in heat dispersion. It's a neat little sorta-gimmick on Apple's behalf, but this gimmick actually serves a purpose and looks great while doing so.
You don't have to really like them, I said Lenovo computers might not look as good but both carbon fiber and titanum that Lenovo use for their covers are much more reliable and more expensive materials. It's just how they roll.


I also can't get over the trackpad AND the physical buttons. It makes the workspace look more cluttered. I think it still goes to show that the trackpad of Macs is a lot more useful and intuitive than the ones on Windows OEMs
The physical buttons there are not for the touchpad/trackpad, they are for the trackpoint, the red pointing stick thing-y. To me it's the perfect replacement for a mouse on laptops and makes touchpads redundant and clumsy. I literally played counterstrike on that and owned noobs. You can use it all day as well, because all you have to do to move the cursor around the screen is tilt the finger, and it's very precise. For people who are used to it, they'll usually say it rocks and is better than a mouse in most scenarios.

Just look at this:

Outside of a GPU and CPU, and maybe that nice-looking Retina screen, I think $240 for a 256GB SSD and 8GB of RAM will give me a machine that is very close to a low-end MB in boot up time and fluidity when moving about the OS. Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but simply put, I won't require a new machine for the next three years if I wanted.
I think you're good, the 2,4ghz core 2 duo isn't really that much slower than the i3 or i5. The SSD drive makes a bigger difference.
I like what Apple did with the Retina display. Displays on laptops have always sucked compared to good PC displays and phones. Lenovo used to sell some laptops with IPS panels but they apparently stopped because of lack of demand oO
 

dilla

Trumpfan17 aka Coonie aka Dilla aka Tennis Dog
So basically the biggest argument that I can see you making is that with Apple it's easy - you just pay the extra cash and are sure that the hardware you're getting will work without you having to care about making a choice.
I think I can agree with that. Outside of Apple every company offers major choice and products ranging all the way from cheap and shitty to high-end, and in every price range you have to know what you're buying.
In my opinion it doesn't make Apple the best choice. It makes it the Pizza Hut of "Italian" restaurants. It's good enough and quite good in quality, but there are better choices if you know what you're doing or care to ask.



Well, if someone asked me for a reliable 1000$ laptop I'd just tell them to get the T-series Thinkpad. If someone asked me for the best 1500$ laptop I'd tell them to add more ram or bigger SSD, or just buy the initial version and save 500$. Sounds pretty easy.


There's usually no rule of thumb for buying electronics though. I'd say in the 500-700 range you have to pick one that's going to be the best for you as well.



I think I'd know good enough not to buy a shitty product. Guys selling electronics at electronics stores are no experts, I bet I'd know more after a couple hours of research, coming from a relative newbie. I wouldn't need to know details about material chemistry. All it takes is to gather a lot of opinions and reviews, and compare which product seems to serve my needs the most while at the same time gaining 10 out of 10 reviews. I think I'd learn a lot in the process as well, so that sounds like a perfect thing to do.



Microsoft's OS updates aren't as frequent and a 2010 OS is still very fresh, also a Windows 8 Pro upgrade if you're coming from Windows 7 or XP is 40$.
iWork is not MS Office though, and MS Office for Mac is also expensive. If it comes to great alternatives you can download Open Office and it's free.



I wouldn't, I'm pretty sure the T-series Thinkpads are more reliable, not only cheaper. At that point picking either of these I'd know I'm getting the highest quality tech anyway, and T Thinkpads are technically superior laptops. I'd say with these Thinkpads you get what you pay for, while with Apple more cash ends up in their pockets - that's an annoying thought.

That's only an example though, because T-series Thinkpads is a specific, trusted line of products. These days I think the whole "company vs company" thing is a little outdated. It's usually about product vs. product these days. Apple is specific because it still serves the old-fashioned "I want a computer from company X" people. I don't think any person in the tech world who isn't ignorant could just say something like "buy Samsung/Sony/whatever" because each of these companies have amazing products as well as shitty products. You see these silly trolls on the message boards saying "Samsung sucks, Sony rules, only Sony!" - that's how you tell that someone is an idiot. There are maybe a few LINES of products that are worth recommending, like the Galaxy S series (although there are shitty phones there as well, like the Galaxy S Advanced or PLUS versions of phones). Xperia line? Mostly shitty phones with just a few very decent models.
LG releases shitty phones with maybe 2-3 good models a year. Saying "buy LG/Sony/Samsung" would be a suicide and a very stupid thing to do.

However each of these companies have at least 1 product that is better and cheaper than Apple's best Iphone, you just have to know which one it is. Same story with laptops.
Buying a product it's important to forget all the silly prejudice and go for a product that at that specific point in time seems to serve your needs best. It's different with Apple though, because they only have a few products, which severely limits your choices, you know that you're going to pay too much for what you're getting, but you know it's not going to be a bad product. It's paying too much for just not having to care or educate yourself and not having to worry because Apple can afford not having shitty (low-end) products. They basically have these one-size-fits-all products for people who are afraid of custom tailored ones. It's a safe but lazy choice and you're paying more for making it.



You don't have to use it, it's just something Thinkpads often include, being also business computers. Here in Europe it might sound like a much better idea as many countries offer free wireless 3G internet Sim cards thanks to EU's informatization program. Technically you have the internet 24/7 without having to care about looking for open wifi.



You don't have to really like them, I said Lenovo computers might not look as good but both carbon fiber and titanum that Lenovo use for their covers are much more reliable and more expensive materials. It's just how they roll.




The physical buttons there are not for the touchpad/trackpad, they are for the trackpoint, the red pointing stick thing-y. To me it's the perfect replacement for a mouse on laptops and makes touchpads redundant and clumsy. I literally played counterstrike on that and owned noobs. You can use it all day as well, because all you have to do to move the cursor around the screen is tilt the finger, and it's very precise. For people who are used to it, they'll usually say it rocks and is better than a mouse in most scenarios.

Just look at this:



I think you're good, the 2,4ghz core 2 duo isn't really that much slower than the i3 or i5. The SSD drive makes a bigger difference.
I like what Apple did with the Retina display. Displays on laptops have always sucked compared to good PC displays and phones. Lenovo used to sell some laptops with IPS panels but they apparently stopped because of lack of demand oO

I think this just comes from me personally never having a reliable laptop. Nor the rest of my family having one either. Windows laptop, that is. My dad has never asked me for help with his MacBook not connecting to the internet or having any technical difficulties. My sister is rather computer-literate and she asks for suggestions for programs to open certain files, that is all.

While you could suggest a Windows laptop for someone, I have never personally had a good experience with them and therefore it is easy to see why I would be hesitant to invest in one for myself or suggest someone else to do the same. The evidence can be insurmountable to get the Lenovo, but I have a perfectly fine experience with Apple products and counting my sister and dad's MBPs I can say that builds a better, stronger case for me to get another Apple product.

You mention a lot of comparable PCs for cheaper prices, but I have not had experience with them. Perhaps my friends and others I see using Windows PCs buy the cheap, shit ones. That's why they break or whatever and cause distress for the users. I have never seen someone with a high-tech Windows laptop, carbon fiber body and all the bells and whistles, so I have not been able to truly see the high end performance of a Windows machine.

Or maybe I have and I still notice no difference in performance to my now-three-years-old MBP.

I never liked that TrackPoint technology. That feature I HAVE used and it was a bit different and maybe would take some getting used to. I'll try it again if I ever get the chance, but I just prefer gestures on my trackpad so much more at the moment.

Your mentioning of 3G technology may not be a selling point here in the States. I thought we were talking about consumers in the States. If we are talking about Europe, then it is a bit unfair because Apple products are retardedly priced over there, even more overprice than Apple is here. But I don't think mobile data would sell well here in the States. I think the trend of the netbook came and went. Some wireless carriers tried to jump on it, like Verizon, but it was quietly killed in favor of tablets now.


On another note, this was pretty funny. http://appleinsider.com/articles/13...ets-out-support-for-galaxy-s4-from-his-iphone

I have always found Android ridiculous claims of a couple hundred-thousands, or even millions, of newly activated Android devices daily. I think those numbers are really exaggerated because they claim similar growth numbers today. That means kids in Ethiopia are now rocking Android devices or every person in the States is now rocking multiple handsets.
 

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
It seems to be getting about Apple vs others again. So you're using Apple because that's how you and your family roll. That's fine. We all have our preferences. For example the last phone I bought before my current Android one wasn't because it was technically the best thing I could buy for the cash I had, but because I had a good feeling about it and using it felt good. I'm talking about the Samsung Wave with its specific Bada platform. I thought it was really great and it served my needs really well, until I wanted more apps, that is. Other than that, it was probably the best phone I've used. I could have gone with the Galaxy S at that point, it would be a more popular choice and technically there were a lot of arguments for it, but I bought the Wave anyway, and I didn't regret it one bit, the Galaxy S just didn't convince me, even though I knew it was a great phone, and overall it was a little better. I just felt like I don't need THAT kind of better, and Wave was better for my needs at that point.

I guess what annoys me is the people who use Apple products and at the same time make a lot of noise about how best they are, how they are better than anything else. The point is, Macbooks are good laptops, but they're not the second coming of Christ. There are similar or technically better laptops, there are less overpriced laptops, depending what you need. I myself mentioned in this thread that I might one day buy a Macbook. That's not because I think they're the best laptops, that's because I begin to like them for what they are - nice looking, decently made computers that are not made for gaming or heavy work, but for casual use.
One day when I'll get a new Windows laptop for business (most probably a Thinkpad anyway), granted that Microsoft keeps on screwing things up with Windows, I might buy a Macbook for myself to use it for leisure activities. They're a pleasure to look at and if it comes to these tasks they are as good. I don't like OSX as much as Windows 7, but Windows 7 is going to get outdated and OSX seems like a better alternative than Microsoft's Tiles. I could likely sort out the "overpriced" argument by buying a 2 or 3 year old model.

Also, I'd love Apple's main ideals of creating genuinely new and cool products, but I hate their way of making money, their marketing strategies and the fact that they're probably the biggest control freak out of all "jewish evil American corporations". It's really hard to like Apple as a company.
Each corporation has some sort of public personality. If Apple was a guy he'd be that hardcore douchebag driving a brand new red convertible and talking about ideals to get laid in my eyes. Maybe it's different in America, where being an overconfident douchebag is kind of ok, maybe that's part of the reason why Apple isn't a liked company outside of America, while it has in fact so many fans in America. Because while I can understand why you can enjoy Apple products, it's hard for me to understand how anyone can really like them as company.
If they behaved differently though - say, like Sony which seems to be the Japanese version of Apple and shown their more humble side, maybe people outside of America wouldn't hate on them as much.

If you're showing an Iphone saying "this is the best phone ever, it's absolutely amazing" people are going to point out that it's obviously not and that you should get over yourself. Every Iphone announcement just makes me kind of angry, being the guy who isn't a technological idiot I feel like they're trying to treat me as one, and that whoever buys the product after this kind of announcement certainly is one.
I feel like they're trying to fool me. They normally compare the newest Iphone to the absolutely cutting edge device, saying it's technically better, I think "they're out of their minds, whoever believes this and buys this phone surely clicks links in spam emails and writes formal letters using comic sans as well, and if it's a girl she's going to use the 'innovative camera features' to take a lot of self-portraits in the mirror".
On another hand, IF they said something like: "hey, we've made a phone and while it doesn't pack a quad core processor, we think it's really fun to use", that'd be a totally different thing. Same with Macbooks. They are not the best laptops, technically. Being very vocal claiming that they are annoys my inner nerd. I accept their appeal to an average consumer though. I'm mildly annoyed by their price, but I could get over that if they were recognized just for what they are. However whatever Apple does, it just screams to me that they're trying to fool me, and they indeed fool a lot of people, and these people copy that annoying style, it usually seems to be a part of using Apple products.
They're trying to tell me that I'm buying the best product, when I know it's not the best. They're trying to tell me that it's priced reasonably for what it is, which is not the case as well.
These are my problems with Apple, their attitude, the attitude of people buying their products, and the fact that Apple acts on their attitude and prices and markets their products accordingly.


From the article you mentioned, this quote really opens eyes on how people lack knowledge even on mainstream technology:
Only 11 percent of customers are aware of and can link the Galaxy Tab back to Samsung, while 65% of consumers are aware and can link the iPad back to Apple
 

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