How many PhDs do you think cleaned your shit in grade school?
- Thread starter dilla
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Here that's what happens if you go to extremes and pick either a worthless career track or one just because it "pays off". These are 2 mistakes people do while picking their future.
You can pick a worthless track as a secondary degree, as a hobby. People study journalism (and only journalism) and expect a serious job. I mean, what are they thinking?
On another hand there's nothing more silly than analyzing your future education by how much it will "pay off". Rate of return? Seriously? So what's the rate of return of your life for you? A pretty stupid way of looking at education. Fortunately people here don't have that problem because of free public education. While I think that education shouldn't be free (or at the very least "worthless" education) it makes people perceive it in a more reasonable way. The only problem that it creates is that some people pick bullshit degrees and gain nothing in the end, because they don't want to learn but want a degree.
Anyway the problem of "5000 phds who work as janitors" in this case is that they do that because that's what they chose to do. It's not like they couldn't pick a "better" job. For some reason that one might have been suitable for them.
My high school "janitor" had a master's degree and a serious job in the past, yet he chose to retire and work as a janitor during his last years, just to work with kids. He would just sit there and play chess with us. He also organized some nice activities and everyone liked him. He would take care of destroyed things too.
A friend of mine who graduated economics wanted an easy, stress-free time to work on a project that she had to invest some money in, so she worked at a cafeteria for a few months.
There are also people who do serious projects and are officially hired as janitors too, because it's the same workplace. The word "janitor" makes that article seem serious but it doesn't always mean the same thing.
5000 cases is a small number, I'm sure that it largely consists of cases similar to those that I mentioned.
You can pick a worthless track as a secondary degree, as a hobby. People study journalism (and only journalism) and expect a serious job. I mean, what are they thinking?
On another hand there's nothing more silly than analyzing your future education by how much it will "pay off". Rate of return? Seriously? So what's the rate of return of your life for you? A pretty stupid way of looking at education. Fortunately people here don't have that problem because of free public education. While I think that education shouldn't be free (or at the very least "worthless" education) it makes people perceive it in a more reasonable way. The only problem that it creates is that some people pick bullshit degrees and gain nothing in the end, because they don't want to learn but want a degree.
Anyway the problem of "5000 phds who work as janitors" in this case is that they do that because that's what they chose to do. It's not like they couldn't pick a "better" job. For some reason that one might have been suitable for them.
My high school "janitor" had a master's degree and a serious job in the past, yet he chose to retire and work as a janitor during his last years, just to work with kids. He would just sit there and play chess with us. He also organized some nice activities and everyone liked him. He would take care of destroyed things too.
A friend of mine who graduated economics wanted an easy, stress-free time to work on a project that she had to invest some money in, so she worked at a cafeteria for a few months.
There are also people who do serious projects and are officially hired as janitors too, because it's the same workplace. The word "janitor" makes that article seem serious but it doesn't always mean the same thing.
5000 cases is a small number, I'm sure that it largely consists of cases similar to those that I mentioned.
I think, in the States, that a janitor is perceived as one of the worst jobs. Maybe not a school janitor, but definitely one at an airport or mall, or just anywhere where lots of people frequent.
I understand your experience with your janitor and it's completely reasonable. But I don't think so many qualified people choose to be a janitor over other shitty jobs, like retail or fast food.
But this article was surprising to me as to why "educated" people would settle for a job as a janitor, rather than try and find a job elsewhere. I'm sure in some instances the job was a necessity and the person had no choice. But my impression was that people that didn't go to school, or even graduate high school, took jobs as janitors. Why is it the exact opposite, where people with degrees get jobs here? I understand the whole "BS degree" thing, but surely someone with a journalism degree could wait a bit before settling for a janitorial job.
I understand your experience with your janitor and it's completely reasonable. But I don't think so many qualified people choose to be a janitor over other shitty jobs, like retail or fast food.
But this article was surprising to me as to why "educated" people would settle for a job as a janitor, rather than try and find a job elsewhere. I'm sure in some instances the job was a necessity and the person had no choice. But my impression was that people that didn't go to school, or even graduate high school, took jobs as janitors. Why is it the exact opposite, where people with degrees get jobs here? I understand the whole "BS degree" thing, but surely someone with a journalism degree could wait a bit before settling for a janitorial job.
Yeah that's why I said that I'm almost certain that those 5000 cases (which isn't a big number) were some extreme ones and probably it wasn't just that simple as them picking these jobs because they had no alternatives. I'm sure that most of them had some alternatives but went for that job because they had their reasons. Those are only 5000 cases, chances are that they're all not as simple.
A totally different problem is that most people believe that their education warrants a better job because of what they know, so headlines like "phds working as janitors" shock them, yet most people who graduate from their universities usually have an idea about something and have only a fraction of skills that they should have learned, which in turn is only a part of what is needed for a job that they think they should aim at. The problem is that a lot of people go through their universiy studies and get a diploma and think that it's their golden key, and that the fact that they passed their exams is their proof of having skills. Very little students that I know take their time to possess skills that are really needed apart from learning for their exams, which aren't even a good way of testing if you have sufficient skills.
A totally different problem is that most people believe that their education warrants a better job because of what they know, so headlines like "phds working as janitors" shock them, yet most people who graduate from their universities usually have an idea about something and have only a fraction of skills that they should have learned, which in turn is only a part of what is needed for a job that they think they should aim at. The problem is that a lot of people go through their universiy studies and get a diploma and think that it's their golden key, and that the fact that they passed their exams is their proof of having skills. Very little students that I know take their time to possess skills that are really needed apart from learning for their exams, which aren't even a good way of testing if you have sufficient skills.
I've heard that a lot. I've heard extreme statements like "college education is worthless, "a degree is just a paper, you don't actually learn anything," "college is a money scam," etc. What skills do you feel a lot of college grads lack? Are these life skills, or something more specific like skills necessary in the workplace?
My friend's neighbourhood post-office clerk graduated in computer engineering. Asked him why isn't he out there working in his field. His answer?
"Why would I? I don't have to do fuck all here, it's stress free - I make 60,000/Yr and the unions back me up. *gives a huge smile*"
Some people just don't give a fuck. lol
That being said, I'm a firm believer that if you follow your passions, you'll find a job.
"Why would I? I don't have to do fuck all here, it's stress free - I make 60,000/Yr and the unions back me up. *gives a huge smile*"
Some people just don't give a fuck. lol
That being said, I'm a firm believer that if you follow your passions, you'll find a job.
I absolutely don't think that college education is worthless, but some people make it worthless for themselves and only waste time.
I personally think that it shows you a way, and offers a first step on a path, and it's there to show multiple paths that you might follow if you don't have a passion for something you already know that you want to do.
But you have to follow these paths by yourself. It's there just to show you a way, not take you all the way, which is what some people assume it does.
If you go to a med school I assume they have to teach you more because you'll be responsible for someone's life, but for example with IT - most people graduate with absolutely basic skills and IT-centred mentality because you've spent 4-5 years studying that, so you think you know something about it.
That's because they teach you basics of a lot of things, and most people only learn basics of those basics to pass the exams and are happy that they did because for most people they are rather hard.
Once you pass that exam you start learning new things (new basics) and rarely go back to basics of what you've already learned. Unless it's about using Photoshop to edit a family photo or write a short script that checks the weather for you. Which is something that you could've learned in an hour or two since you study IT.
So you gratuate and know basics of basics, a lot of them. If it was IT and you really passed all exams very well you know some programming in various languages, databases, multimedia, networks etc etc but in reality you don't know them, you just have some insight on how they work and how to learn them. If you were presented with an opportunity to do something big, serious in any of those fields you'd be clueless about how to do it, you'd just feel more comfortable because you'd feel like it's possible to learn that. But you're barely on the first step on that way and there are still dozens of them that you'd have to accomplish to possess enough skill to be able do it well.
If it was business chances are that you think you could manage a huge organization, know macro and microeconomics, accounting, corporate law etc etc.
Of course you don't know any of those things, you just have an idea of how they work and can answer basic questions and pretend that you're smart. Now those are majors that are rather useful, the situation is so much worse if you're doing things like journalism or sociology that don't even try to teach you any skills that make sense.
What you should do is learn the skills that your professors "talk about", pick something you want to do and just do it.
You can spend 50, 70, 150 hours to pass a skill-related class (and you might be a lazy ass and don't even do that) but you will need to spend dozens of times more time to be good enough to say that you have some skills in it. And you have to learn that by yourself, college is there to show you a way and show you how to do it. And comes with people who already know something and might help you on your path. And you can also meet people who are either lazy bums like you, or those who want what you want to do like you, and might be able to help you in various ways.
So my conclusion would be that college is a huge waste of time and money for a lot of people, especially lazy bums. On another hand it will give you great things if you take proper advantage of it and if you want to learn something and do something ambitious with your life in the first place.
I personally think that it shows you a way, and offers a first step on a path, and it's there to show multiple paths that you might follow if you don't have a passion for something you already know that you want to do.
But you have to follow these paths by yourself. It's there just to show you a way, not take you all the way, which is what some people assume it does.
If you go to a med school I assume they have to teach you more because you'll be responsible for someone's life, but for example with IT - most people graduate with absolutely basic skills and IT-centred mentality because you've spent 4-5 years studying that, so you think you know something about it.
That's because they teach you basics of a lot of things, and most people only learn basics of those basics to pass the exams and are happy that they did because for most people they are rather hard.
Once you pass that exam you start learning new things (new basics) and rarely go back to basics of what you've already learned. Unless it's about using Photoshop to edit a family photo or write a short script that checks the weather for you. Which is something that you could've learned in an hour or two since you study IT.
So you gratuate and know basics of basics, a lot of them. If it was IT and you really passed all exams very well you know some programming in various languages, databases, multimedia, networks etc etc but in reality you don't know them, you just have some insight on how they work and how to learn them. If you were presented with an opportunity to do something big, serious in any of those fields you'd be clueless about how to do it, you'd just feel more comfortable because you'd feel like it's possible to learn that. But you're barely on the first step on that way and there are still dozens of them that you'd have to accomplish to possess enough skill to be able do it well.
If it was business chances are that you think you could manage a huge organization, know macro and microeconomics, accounting, corporate law etc etc.
Of course you don't know any of those things, you just have an idea of how they work and can answer basic questions and pretend that you're smart. Now those are majors that are rather useful, the situation is so much worse if you're doing things like journalism or sociology that don't even try to teach you any skills that make sense.
What you should do is learn the skills that your professors "talk about", pick something you want to do and just do it.
You can spend 50, 70, 150 hours to pass a skill-related class (and you might be a lazy ass and don't even do that) but you will need to spend dozens of times more time to be good enough to say that you have some skills in it. And you have to learn that by yourself, college is there to show you a way and show you how to do it. And comes with people who already know something and might help you on your path. And you can also meet people who are either lazy bums like you, or those who want what you want to do like you, and might be able to help you in various ways.
So my conclusion would be that college is a huge waste of time and money for a lot of people, especially lazy bums. On another hand it will give you great things if you take proper advantage of it and if you want to learn something and do something ambitious with your life in the first place.
I haven't had an English cleaner at work the whole time I've been there. In fact... I'd go so far as to say, I haven't actually ever met an English cleaner.
The thing is a PhD doesn't qualify you for shit. No one cares about your english degree, your anthropology degree, pretty much any arts degree, etc. In fact, if I was hiring I'd hire the person straight out of high school who has work experience over that because at least the person out of high school isn't in the business of wasting time. Even most business degrees; except it's not that the knowledge is useless, it's that everyone and their mother has it, so what makes you better than them?
I agree with Masta here which tends to be somewhat more common these days.
In the end, finding a profession or choosing a way of life is not a popularity contest, but a matter of finding something that makes sense for you. Some people without degrees (like masta mentioned) consciously chose to never get an education, because it didn't make sense for them. They chose not to waste time doing something that gave no meaning, or they simply weren't "lucky" enough to stumble across a career path that fitted their skillsets and passions.
I don't have a business degree so it's not like I'm taking offense, but what are you saying? That having one is useless because it doesn't make you better than others? Your skill is geology, right? Not that it matters for the point I'm making - I guess you didn't put a bunch of notes in a box and draw a random one. So that leads me to think you chose that path because it made sense for you, somehow. Or maybe you got into it by chance and it felt good, so you stuck with it. Whatever led you to choose that path might've led people to get a business degree, and it's kind of moot to assume anyone does anything to make themselves better than others. You're better off with one than without one.
Another thing about education is that it teaches you how to effectively aquire useful information. It maintains your ability to focus. It's brain food and it's good for you, like reading a book. In that manner, if you look at an entire human life, wasting time getting a business degree is no more "waste" than how many hours you have watched Television in your life. I don't think a single human lived a life where nothing was "wasted" in the eyes of others. It's those moments of wasting your life that give the moments of greatness their meaning, right?
It is great if you take something because you are interested in, however it is also stupid to take that if it doesn't make you better than someone else. Why do I say this? It's simple really, you are paying absurb amounts of money for it. For it to be nothing more than an interest or hobby, you have to be one rich mother fucker to drop that much on it. See that's the beauty of advertising, people actually believe they should do something that expensive simply because it interests them. If it's only an interest, you can learn the exact same material with a library card and internet connection.
Now, obviously this isn't always the case but I would say it's the average. It's part of why someone with a law degree has trouble getting a job.
My point was more-so for a lot of art's type degrees. I just wanted to point out that even with business it's hard to land a job because the market is over-saturated. It's because of the way university education's are marketed and that people buy into the marketing without really thinking about it. The point stands for a lot of sciences as well, so you don't think I'm biased towards arts. A B.Sc in chemistry for example, is pretty useless if you want to actually do a chemistry related job. You're looking at a minimum M.Sc.
The fundamental flaw with your analogy is that you spend upwards on $30,000 for an education. You won't spend even close to that amount of money on TV over your entire life. And the problem with spending $30,000 on an education that doesn't get you anywhere is the debt that it gets you into.
At the moment, it doesn't matter in which field you're in... it's hard out there. A BA for the most part, is worth poop. If you have background experience in a field and have done some internship you're in a better position to get a job though.
Blue collar work - now there you have openings and jobs coming out of your ass.
Generally though, it's better to have a degree than not have one. Just a matter of where you put in your energy, decide what your plan is and where you'd like to see yourself.
I think the problem with a degree is people nowadays expect to get their BA and have a 60,000/YR salary out the door. It seldom works that way anymore, this isn't the 50-60s. You have to pay your dues, start off low and move up. All about a strong work ethic in that respect.
Blue collar work - now there you have openings and jobs coming out of your ass.
Generally though, it's better to have a degree than not have one. Just a matter of where you put in your energy, decide what your plan is and where you'd like to see yourself.
I think the problem with a degree is people nowadays expect to get their BA and have a 60,000/YR salary out the door. It seldom works that way anymore, this isn't the 50-60s. You have to pay your dues, start off low and move up. All about a strong work ethic in that respect.
I'll be honest Da_Funk, in Norway we have a slightly different school system. When you said degree, I though "a grade in a class". Though it doesn't apply to university studies, in Norway you can get a respectable (enough) business education for free. So yeah I hear you now.
So many med students flip their shit at the fact they are offered residencies that pay $45-60K a year, but forget that they still have to pay back loans right away and sometimes those $50K salaries are offered in cities like Los Angeles, where it doesn't mean shit.
I can imagine how high student loans are in the USA. I've heard a few horror stories. It isn't as bad here in Canada, especially in Quebec, luckily.
On a side-related note, I own the entire Nightmare on Elm Street DVD set. I don't know why I ever got it, and I never watched them.
I used to own that, but I watched them and then sold it on ebay. The first was the best.
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