Technology Apple

[dilla]

http://www.lockergnome.com/mattryan/2011/03/31/why-macs-cost-more-than-pcs/

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/storage/apple-the-low-cost-producer/1491

 

[masta247]

I disagree. Many laptops are sold with no software at all (many Asus models, MSI, Acer), there are already more value for money tablets than the ipad2, total lie with performance (Windows 7 is less resource demanding than latest OSX! even if it was the other way around it wouldn't justify the performance difference, especially graphics), majority of the movie industry does not use Apple (but quite a lot of them do, yes, especially for less demanding animations, they often get good deals from Apple), even if it did most other industries (especially those where you really need computing power) do not use Apple.
Also the cost difference is high and the easiest way to notice that is just look at Apple's results. They really are able to manufacture their devices for much less than they sell them for, it's not a myth.
They do offer pretty good design and above-average quality for the price but it doesn't justify it being that high.
The relatively low price of the Ipad 2 and Intel's unfortunate claim have sparked some very hard claims from Apple fans.

 

[dilla]

It's unfortunate 7 has to compare with Lion, Apple's soon-to-be-Vista-esque failure. I can use it, the way I could use Vista on my previous notebook, but others can't and are complaining about compatibility issues, among other things.

 

[Snowman]

waiting on the iphone 5th generation. supposed 8 MP camera. im in dire need of gettin a new phone, ill wait til september to get in when it arrives in the US.

 

[S O F I]

I disagree. Many laptops are sold with no software at all (many Asus models, MSI, Acer), there are already more value for money tablets than the ipad2, total lie with performance (Windows 7 is less resource demanding than latest OSX! even if it was the other way around it wouldn't justify the performance difference, especially graphics), majority of the movie industry does not use Apple (but quite a lot of them do, yes, especially for less demanding animations, they often get good deals from Apple), even if it did most other industries (especially those where you really need computing power) do not use Apple.
Also the cost difference is high and the easiest way to notice that is just look at Apple's results. They really are able to manufacture their devices for much less than they sell them for, it's not a myth.
They do offer pretty good design and above-average quality for the price but it doesn't justify it being that high.

The article addressed four areas.

1. bloatware
2. software included (iLife)
3. Build quality (design)
4. Better hardware specs for PCs because they need more to do the same amount

You didn't address all four. You addressed the first one. Also, they were talking about build quality, not design (ie. looks).

And, you're right when it comes to margins. Apple selling one Macbook Pro is equivalent to HP selling 7 PCs. Make no mistake, HP would sell at a premium, IF IT COULD. Apple enjoys the benefit of not having to reduce its price but that doesn't mean you're paying a premium for "the brand", as the article points out. Simply, you're paying for the differences between PC and OS X. You're also paying for the fact that there's only one manufacturer of Apple's computers.

 

[dilla]

^^ Battery life, backlit keyboard, lightweight body but not a "lightweight computer's performance," and the Magic Trackpad. You don't know what you're missing unless you've actually used an Apple computer before. Like hell I'm gonna try the millions of gimmicks each manufacturer puts into their computers. Most of it breaks within the first year. Fingerprint readers, unheard-of technologies (LightScribe, anyone?).

Some ask me about playing Blu-Ray movies on my MBP, which I can't. But I don't own any to begin with, and don't plan on doing so either. Who buys movies regularly these days? Buncha schmucks. Most pirate, so it's digitalized to begin with. Fucka CD/DVD/BluRay disc.

 

[S O F I]

^Yeah, I mean, there's a ton of things about Macbooks that I absolutely love. It's the little things like controlling everything with my trackpad. It's the fact that I don't have to press a single button when I connect my macbook to a projector (as opposed to function F5 or what the fuck ever PCs do).

 

[masta247]

The article addressed four areas.

1. bloatware
2. software included (iLife)
3. Build quality (design)
4. Better hardware specs for PCs because they need more to do the same amount

I addressed 1,3 and 4. Okay, so again:
1. Laptops with no software included are the cheapest (Asus, Acer, MSI often offer these)
2. For example Sony often adds more software than Apple does. Also it's Apple creating that software in the first place, it's cheaper for them. Most people don't need that anyway, at least in Sony's case people are often complaining that it only boast the total price and you have no option to get your laptop without that.
3. It's pretty good but not as good as the price suggests, like I said. Take Lenovo, they have superior build quality for their business models for a lower price and better specs. Sony often do too. They often use carbon fiber, magnesium and such.
4. Again like I said, the latest Windows 7 is less resource demanding than the latest Mac OS while Apple computers have way worse specs. Obviously it translates to being able to do everything faster on a Windows 7 machine, especially whenever a better-than-terrible gpu is needed.

And, you're right when it comes to margins.

Well, so you agree with me disagreeing with the core point of the original article

Battery life, backlit keyboard, lightweight body but not a "lightweight computer's performance," and the Magic Trackpad. You don't know what you're missing unless you've actually used an Apple computer before. Like hell I'm gonna try the millions of gimmicks each manufacturer puts into their computers. Most of it breaks within the first year. Fingerprint readers, unheard-of technologies (LightScribe, anyone?).

The latest Macbook air does not offer backlit keyboard while most other business laptops do. Many laptops outperform Macbook air and MBP if it comes to battery life, I can't comment on the Trackpad thing because I don't use them. I'm a trackpoint addict, I find them much more convenient and unfortunately no Apple laptop has one.

 

[dilla]

The MacBook Air does have a backlit keyboard.

Do you have a comparison of battery life between the Sandy Bridge MBAs and similar Windows machines?

And what does it mean when you say "such-and-such manufacturer has 'superior build quality?'" Is there some report you look at that? Because this says Sony and Lenovo are good, but not great. http://www.pcworld.com/article/211402/reliability_and_service_laptops.html

ASUS, however, is. But while ASUS has three "averages," Apple only has one. And it's kind of a silly category as I don't see why Apple wouldn't replace anything under the one year warranty. Unless in the sample survey, the dude dropped his MacBook but it still worked but had a dent the size of a moon crater on it.

 

[masta247]

No backlit keyboard on latest editions of Macbook air:
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2677414?start=0&tstart=0
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/apple/the-macbook-airs-biggest-omission-keyboard-backlight/8945

Yeah, I have no idea why Macbook air gets hyped as a "great battery life" laptop:
First ones - http://www.pcworld.com/article/142314/macbook_air_tests_good_looks_poor_battery_life.html
Historically - http://www.anandtech.com/show/4528/the-2011-macbook-air-11-13inch-review/13

And a comparison chart of the late 2010/early 2011 laptops, don't know test conditions but I assume it was an average load test:

As of Sandy Bridge, well - all laptops gained 2 to 3 hours because it integrates CPU and GPU and takes advantage of a smaller technology process. Now looks like the chart above did not even include this one:
http://laptop-computer-planet.com/b...-laptop-offers-over-11-hours-of-battery-life/

Which is almost twice of the newest SB Macbook air. That's with Nvidia's 520M GPU and a SB cpu.
I assume that there are models that can beat this one too.

Now if it comes to the quality it's the hardest to really prove.
The main difference between Apple and Lenovo/Sony if it comes to return rates comes from the fact that Apple releases almost exclusively premium products while Sony and Lenovo range all the way from low end to the highest business class.
I'm fairly sure that a high end Lenovo model is of much better build quality than a Sony model. That was the main reason why Lenovo have bought IBM's laptop facility - they offered hands down the highest quality with their business series.
I can't find a comparison but go ahead and try a high end Lenovo laptop. They are often using magnesium/titanium composites, with very tough frames, waterproof keyboards etc. I am willing to bet that their return rate is much lower too. Heck, I own a IBM laptop made in 2004 and it's almost constantly on without having a single issue, and I often carry it with me, it survived multiple drops from the bike and such. Only the battery life is naturally not as good as it was back then. The IBM T-series were known as the most solid laptops, Lenovo are using the same technology in their business laptops, that's why they look so rough.

I have to give it to you that these Airs are really cheap in America. Here they are over twice as expensive as these Asus or HP models listed there which makes the difference less of an issue considering that Airs have their own selling points too. They are priced on par with the highest end Lenovo/Sony models here which is really ridiculous.

 

[Pittsey]

My issue with Macs is because the people in England who buy them are pricks. I don't want to be a part of that group.

 

[dilla]

No backlit keyboard on latest editions of Macbook air:
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2677414?start=0&tstart=0
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/apple/the-macbook-airs-biggest-omission-keyboard-backlight/8945

Yeah, I have no idea why Macbook air gets hyped as a "great battery life" laptop:
First ones - http://www.pcworld.com/article/142314/macbook_air_tests_good_looks_poor_battery_life.html
Historically - http://www.anandtech.com/show/4528/the-2011-macbook-air-11-13inch-review/13

And a comparison chart of the late 2010/early 2011 laptops, don't know test conditions but I assume it was an average load test:

As of Sandy Bridge, well - all laptops gained 2 to 3 hours because it integrates CPU and GPU and takes advantage of a smaller technology process. Now looks like the chart above did not even include this one:
http://laptop-computer-planet.com/b...-laptop-offers-over-11-hours-of-battery-life/

Which is almost twice of the newest SB Macbook air. That's with Nvidia's 520M GPU and a SB cpu.
I assume that there are models that can beat this one too.

Now if it comes to the quality it's the hardest to really prove.
The main difference between Apple and Lenovo/Sony if it comes to return rates comes from the fact that Apple releases almost exclusively premium products while Sony and Lenovo range all the way from low end to the highest business class.
I'm fairly sure that a high end Lenovo model is of much better build quality than a Sony model. That was the main reason why Lenovo have bought IBM's laptop facility - they offered hands down the highest quality with their business series.
I can't find a comparison but go ahead and try a high end Lenovo laptop. They are often using magnesium/titanium composites, with very tough frames, waterproof keyboards etc. I am willing to bet that their return rate is much lower too. Heck, I own a IBM laptop made in 2004 and it's almost constantly on without having a single issue, and I often carry it with me, it survived multiple drops from the bike and such. Only the battery life is naturally not as good as it was back then. The IBM T-series were known as the most solid laptops, Lenovo are using the same technology in their business laptops, that's why they look so rough.

I have to give it to you that these Airs are really cheap in America. Here they are over twice as expensive as these Asus or HP models listed there which makes the difference less of an issue considering that Airs have their own selling points too. They are priced on par with the highest end Lenovo/Sony models here which is really ridiculous.

Your article is dated from six months ago. The new MacBook Airs came out a little over a month ago.
Here is your backlit keyboard on an MBA: http://www.apple.com/macbookair/design.html

I always felt that the price disparity was exaggerated overseas. I know Apple products are even more expensive outside of the US, and I figured we weren't taking that into account at all. But a base price MacBook Air is about 3000 Zioty or 703 Euros. I don't know prices of notebooks in Europe, but at least now you have a reference point for what we're paying here in the States. Definitely a premium, but not by more than a few hundred.

Again, not everyone can afford one. It's not supposed to be like those $400 notebooks I can buy at Walmart.

Also to clarify, I speak strictly of Apple notebooks. The Mac Pros are another issue and I, as well as many others, find it hard to justify buying a Mac Pro over a PC. But with their notebooks, Apple has really created a beautiful product that many users enjoy. I want to kind of stretch it to include the iMac, which is also a neat product, but I haven't spent all that much time with it. But notebooks of Apple's are incredible, especially the MBAs (the new ones). Rumor has it that the MacBook Pros will now look much like the current MBAs, in terms of design. Thinner, slimmer, lighter, etc.

Considering the current MBAs replaced the aging MacBook, it's not hard to believe. Imagine a 15" notebook designed like the current-gen MBA. How light and portable it would be. It may not be the best out at that time, but that will take some time, I feel, for Apple to have the portability aspect of having tiny, slim parts to catch up to performance of current notebooks. But it'll be an interesting thing to see.

With the charts you provided, the ASUS and Toshiba do have better battery lives, but Lenovo does not. I'm kinda curious to see how big the battery is in the MBA. With it being much slimmer than the competitor's notebooks, it may have to sacrifice on battery size? But I guess at this point, it's all about improving the efficiency of the hardware instead of trying to stick a big battery in there.

 

[dilla]

I don't know if we were talking about selling your information for money and shit but: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Goog...Data-to-US-Intelligence-Agencies-215740.shtml

 

[masta247]

Yeah I've read that about American Agencies. All cloud service providers have to provide them with info, which is strange and another reason why I'm not going to use cloud services seriously any soon.

Yeah, I heard that people were complaining about lack of backlit keyboard and that's probably why they've added it again. My bad.

About Macbook air yeah, I did not realize that they are this cheap in America. Here the price on the newest ones starts from 5k zloty, which is far from just below 3k, which is what it costs in America. For 3k we can hardly get a core 2 duo 11.6inch one here.
Add wage disparity and an average person would have to work 3 months without spending anything to buy one. In comparison these Asus laptops range from 1.8k zloty (U31 without software) to 2.7k zloty maximum (u36 with Windows 7 pro and all other gadgets). The most expensive Lenovo or Sony models go for 6-7k. That's how it is here.
On another hand Apple laptops are not too popular here so Apple barely ships any to Poland which makes them more expensive.
Puts it in a different perspective there.

 

[dilla]

Yeah. And I'm not sure, is it "Apple does not ship many products there, therefore they are not that popular," or is it "the demand, for some reason, isn't as high as it is in the US, UK, and a few other Western Europe countries therefore they don't ship there?"

Is Poland an anomaly in that people just don't like Apple or is Apple just not too keen on shipping their products there, for some reason?

I also remember you saying that there were "authorized resellers" and not actual Apple stores like most countries have. That could also be another reason. Why Apple wouldn't put even one in the country is beyond me. That's their problem.

 

[Pittsey]

The UK loves Apple products. All the numpties believe anything with an Apple badge to be awesome. But they are called Townies. And I hate them.

 

[masta247]

Yeah. And I'm not sure, is it "Apple does not ship many products there, therefore they are not that popular," or is it "the demand, for some reason, isn't as high as it is in the US, UK, and a few other Western Europe countries therefore they don't ship there?"

Is Poland an anomaly in that people just don't like Apple or is Apple just not too keen on shipping their products there, for some reason?

I also remember you saying that there were "authorized resellers" and not actual Apple stores like most countries have. That could also be another reason. Why Apple wouldn't put even one in the country is beyond me. That's their problem.

Yeah Apple products are not too popular, their prices are high so people don't buy them and that's why Apple doesn't ship many of them which keeps the prices high too. I see it that way.
Also, everyone use either Windows or Linux builds. We have quite huge software market here in Poland and Macs are rarely supported as opposed to Windows or Linux too.
Also it's very popular to build your own computers here, nobody would buy from Dell or HP or Apple, most shops will build you a computer with parts selected by you for free, it's how most people buy their computers here.

Iphones and Ipods are quite popular mainly thanks to teenagers. There are a few 'Ispots' (aka Apple premium reseller network) here already but I'm yet to see a single person entering these whenever I pass by.
There are also no Apple service centers here, they use third party companies to fix broken I-devices. Not very popular or quality service centers which is worth mentioning.

 

[dilla]

^^ Yeah. The Apple Store experience is another thing. You have to at least experience it when you make your way over to Canada or the States. It's nuts. You may or may not like it, but you should at least see the customer service many Apple fans harp on about. I've had nothing but great experiences, even if nothing was wrong with my products. Simply walking around, trying different stuff out and watch and listening to the employees interact with customers. It's something else, really.

 

[Pittsey]

^^ Yeah. The Apple Store experience is another thing. You have to at least experience it when you make your way over to Canada or the States. It's nuts. You may or may not like it, but you should at least see the customer service many Apple fans harp on about. I've had nothing but great experiences, even if nothing was wrong with my products. Simply walking around, trying different stuff out and watch and listening to the employees interact with customers. It's something else, really.

To be fair, although people who bond over their gadgets sicken me... Good customer service goes a long way... I am looking at a new car... And I'm tempted by a 5 Series, but beemer garages are full of pompous twats. So I might buy a lexus as their customer service is top notch.

 

[vg4030]

^^ Yeah. The Apple Store experience is another thing. You have to at least experience it when you make your way over to Canada or the States. It's nuts. You may or may not like it, but you should at least see the customer service many Apple fans harp on about. I've had nothing but great experiences, even if nothing was wrong with my products. Simply walking around, trying different stuff out and watch and listening to the employees interact with customers. It's something else, really.

I agree that the service at Apple stores is good, but I think the company itself SUCKS bawls.

I hate their shitty policies on returns with their restocking fees etc.. The way their workers are treated in China... like the suicides from last year.. all Apple did was throw more money at the workers (in a pay rise)

And how they hype and promote consumerism in general