Sam Harris Believes in God

[cS bIsHoP]

So, in practice, pursuit of religious mysticism is something along the lines of meditation? What does that have to do with God, as described in religious texts?

Also, in practical terms, tell me five different ways of pursuing a mystical experience. Do I quit my job and play with the ouija board all day long? I'm confused.

I still don't know what you're trying to posit here, even after reading that article you posted. If you agree with something, you should be able to put it in your own words. If you can't, you don't really understand it to begin with.

Fair enough. All I have been trying to suggest is that a rational mysticism could provide a happy middle grounds for people who are naturally spiritual, instead of turning to religion. A mysticism without beliefs, could provide them with meaning in a material world. I think that is half the reason people refuse to ditch their beliefs, their life would seem empty. There are multiple ways to have a mystical experience: vitamin deficiency, meditation, hallucinogenics. But by far the most effective is meditation. Which is what Sam Harris seems to stress. These mystical experiences, have often been associated with god throughout the traditions. And a meditator can understand this, when these feelings begin to spring on him. But it is unnecessary and I'm pretty sure Zen Buddhism claims it is harmful. Which I would have to agree with. If as people were introduced to a rational mysticism they were told: "You do these psycho-physical activities, and you may have feelings of selflessness, love, ecstasy, non-duality and peace. It is easy to associate these feelings with god, and while it is possible, it is quite improbable. No matter what your subjective taste is, as soon as you assign attributes to god, know what you think is false." Obviously I'm no fucking zen master. But,these mystical experiences, often leave the experiencer transformed for the better. You begin to see life in a less personal manner, and serenity comes with it. I simply cannot do the subject justice, maybe his book will. But one of the main sayings about mysticism or contemplative science is that it is ineffable.

 

[Jokerman]

Jokerman wouldn't resort to psychedelics simply because he's such a nerdy health nut but Casey on the other hand seems open to it.

Even if I wasn't concerned about health, I wouldn't take psychedelics or any kind of drug to induce a mystical or heightened state of consciousness because they don't do that. They in fact induce a lower state of consciousness. No drug including pot makes you "high." That word is the most misapplied word for something ever. Guess what, you're not high, you're low. And that's what feels good. You think hanging from a rope until your brain is deprived of oxygen is heightening your consciousness? Yet it feels good so ppl do it. They feel "high." They're on the point of unconsciousness, but they call it high. Same thing with drugs. All drugs that affect your mind are lowering your consciousness, not heightening it. You're not seeing incredible colors or whatever on psychedelics because your senses are heightened or your consciousness is. You're seeing things that aren't there because your consciousness, which is the superior agent of reality, is being partially suppressed so that unconscious shit and hallucinations get through. Altered states does not mean closer to reality or the answer. They don't take us to other realities or show us the truth. The more in control your consciousness is, the more conscious you are. Drugs lessen that control.

 

[S O F I]

But nothing states that reduced control of your consciousness can't help you in potentially seeing a side of yourself that your superior reality is protecting. Most of us go through life living in denial about who we are as persons, where our strengths are and where our shortcomings are. Our "superior" realities are preventing that. Trying to get other people to help tell us that doesn't help either because we see them as imperfect, critical people looking to make themselves feel better. For example, Cary Grant is one of the people who was really adamant about saying that LSD helped him better understand himself as a person. They used to prescribe it in Hollywood. Now, that might not be saying a lot, but I wouldn't discount the potential benefits of an altered state of mind simply because it might means lack of control over your consciousness. For a lot of us, there is a lot of shit deep in our subsconsciousness that we never think about it all as shaping who we are. People have said psychedelics have helped them in that area. Now, I'm not doing any of that shit and not planning to simply because I might not be ready for whatever hallucinations come my way. You seem to completely discount these hallucinations that get through as having nothing to do with who you are as a person, which I think is a bunch of bullshit. There's not a lot of overwhelming evidence in this area but I understand those in the medical field will always err on the side of caution. In other words, "I don't believe you, you need more people".

I don't expect those in the medical field to have an unbiased view on drugs in the same way that I don't expect a doctor to have an unbiased view on extreme sports, or a cop to not be prejudiced against Black people in Brooklyn. You only see the bad shit.

 

[Pittsey]

I am a big SOFI fan.

 

[dilla]

But nothing states that reduced control of your consciousness can't help you in potentially seeing a side of yourself that your superior reality is protecting. Most of us go through life living in denial about who we are as persons, where our strengths are and where our shortcomings are. Our "superior" realities are preventing that. Trying to get other people to help tell us that doesn't help either because we see them as imperfect, critical people looking to make themselves feel better. For example, Cary Grant is one of the people who was really adamant about saying that LSD helped him better understand himself as a person. They used to prescribe it in Hollywood. Now, that might not be saying a lot, but I wouldn't discount the potential benefits of an altered state of mind simply because it might means lack of control over your consciousness. For a lot of us, there is a lot of shit deep in our subsconsciousness that we never think about it all as shaping who we are. People have said psychedelics have helped them in that area. Now, I'm not doing any of that shit and not planning to simply because I might not be ready for whatever hallucinations come my way. You seem to completely discount these hallucinations that get through as having nothing to do with who you are as a person, which I think is a bunch of bullshit. There's not a lot of overwhelming evidence in this area but I understand those in the medical field will always err on the side of caution. In other words, "I don't believe you, you need more people".

I don't expect those in the medical field to have an unbiased view on drugs in the same way that I don't expect a doctor to have an unbiased view on extreme sports, or a cop to not be prejudiced against Black people in Brooklyn. You only see the bad shit.

Oh, best believe I'm not treating Blackies if I'm a doctor. Send em to the vet!!

jk, I'll just kill em. 2

 

[cS bIsHoP]

I know how all of this can sound, but it is completely compatible to be an atheist and a mystic at the same time. I use the word mystic with all the baggage it carries, because I have no other choice. So, if any one is interested, here are some recommendations: Zen and the Brain by James Austen, Buddhism Without Beliefs by Stephen Batchelor, pretty much anything by Jiddu Krishnamurti (my favorite), and The Heart of Buddhist Meditation by Thera Nyanaponika all seem well suited for a skeptical beginner. Sam Harris also has a very good chapter about it in the last chapter of his book "The End of Faith". Some of Vedanta's wisdom is also good, but often times it comes with a certain amount superstition. So I can't really recommend it.

 

[Casey]

I agree that we're not necessarily finding the truth under the influence of psychedelics but from personal perspective I find it just makes you approach things differently. For example, there's a noted difference in my songwriting if I smoke some chronic. Not necessarily better, just different.

We as humans tend to fall into habits and patterns and sometimes thinking from a different perspective (regardless of the cause) can help you break some of those patterns.

As far as using psychedelics to evoke mystic or religious feelings, my perspective is that you're most likely just going to amplify whatever you already feel. Only people who are already religious ever claim to have "found christ" or "spoke to the lord" or whatever. It's important to remember that people are rarely rational in this condition... that's kind of the point, so it's sort of bemusing when people feel that a psychedelic experience has brought them closer to any kind of truth.

 

[cS bIsHoP]

I agree that we're not necessarily finding the truth under the influence of psychedelics but from personal perspective I find it just makes you approach things differently. For example, there's a noted difference in my songwriting if I smoke some chronic. Not necessarily better, just different.

We as humans tend to fall into habits and patterns and sometimes thinking from a different perspective (regardless of the cause) can help you break some of those patterns.

As far as using psychedelics to evoke mystic or religious feelings, my perspective is that you're most likely just going to amplify whatever you already feel. Only people who are already religious ever claim to have "found christ" or "spoke to the lord" or whatever. It's important to remember that people are rarely rational in this condition... that's kind of the point, so it's sort of bemusing when people feel that a psychedelic experience has brought them closer to any kind of truth.

You raise good points, but I have to disagree vaguely. Certainly, psychadelics cause a self-projected experience. It should be noted that mysticism is a destructuring process, a depersonalization. Whether it is possible to have a completely objective experience, I don't know and I'm not going to argue. But to say psychadelics can't reveal some sort of truth, atleast about yourself seems unsubstantiated. Mescalin has been known to cure mental illnesses, and is still slowly being researched due to laws, but even if it utilizes the placebo-effect should it matter? I don't really have a clear stance, you may be right.

 

[Jokerman]

You seem to completely discount these hallucinations that get through as having nothing to do with who you are as a person...

No, I'm discounting them as having to do with getting in touch with a higher state of reality. I'm not dismissing drugs as being sometimes useful in therapy for the personality. I'm dismissing them as useful for mystical insight or higher consciousness. That was the subject. You're talking about psychology, I'm talking about mysticism. Take hypnosis, for example, which brings people close to a state of sleep. That's obviously not higher consciousness, yet it's been a useful tool in therapy for some. It's just not mystical or spiritual. I'm saying neither are drugs.