Oliver Stone: Jewish control of the media is preventing free Holocaust debate

[Flipmo]

This is one of the biggest misconceptions that people have about Nazi Germany. The wave of nationalism and German work ethic made for relatively smooth running on the lower levels, but in the top of the party it was utter chaos really.

Hitler delegated. To the people around him. If Hitler liked you, that equalled to power in the Third Reich. All of the people surrounding Hitler were there for their own reasons. Many of them didn't like each other. They competed with each other, with their organizations, their little private armies. It was petty bickering for Hitler's favour.

The first clear sign of this was the night of the long knives in 1933. Himmler and his elite clique of SS (which was just a small division of the SA at the time) convinced Hitler that the SA leader, Ernst Rohm, was out to make a bid for power himself. So they killed him.

Well-oiled machine? Hell no. Around 1944 Martin Bormann, Hitler's personal aide, was the only gate through which one can speak to Hitler. If Bormann didn't like you, you didn't get the chance to get in Hitler's favour. Bormann shielded Hitler to an insane degree. He did that to protect his own little power bubble.

Goering was there purely for his own gain. He was a decadant fatass, bathing in luxury, robbing art from all over Europe for his own galleries.

Goebbels was one of the more convinced Nazi's, while Himmler was a clerk. A timid clerk with total power over the police and the camps who would organize the murder of millions of people. Bormann was utterly loyal to the Fuhrer and made it so that Hitler couldn't do without him at some point, which obviously increased his own power immensely. Hess, Rosenberg, Ribbentrop, Speer, all these people in Hitler's immediate circle had their own reasons for being there. And for the most of them it wasn't blind dedication to the smooth running of the Third Reich. It was a lot for their own gain. They often actively worked *against* each other. Efficient? Fuck no.

Not to mention the creation of parallel organizations. The German state of course had the army, a police force, a secret service. The Nazi party eventually created the same organizations for themselves, effectively creating double agencies (Waffen-SS, SS, Gestapo - Wehrmacht, police, SD) to the existing ones.

Because that's how the Nazi leaders could enhance their own power sphere. But was it efficient? Of course not.


One of the greatest wonders of the WW2 for me is how that colourful collection of characters around Hitler in the top of the Nazi party functioned. It most reminds me of a medieval situation in which there is one undisputed King and all his vassals are busy competing with each other for the Kings favour. Waging war, making peace, creating and breaking alliances with each other.

Nazi lawyer and party official Hans Frank said during the Nuremberg trials that it most resembled an "anarchy of the all-powerful". Under Hitler, there was a constant guerilla for power.

It's a really interesting subject.

Hitler invented the Large Hadron Collider

 

[Pittsey]

Hitler invented the Large Hadron Collider

That was god. On the seventh day he rested.

 

[EDouble]

if shit is leanig too to one side either side you might want to use research to balance


you can take the good the bad & the ugly same way in life theres Reasons for things and Excuses for things

the atempt of mass genocide of group of people You dont have to deny if something was positive

men are judged how they are judged Hitler doing anything positive Who gives a fuck? it is and it isnt
People who lie distort the truth for political religious or power issues thats on them it shouldnt be counter acted of not seeing the truth or starting anther movement for poltical religious or power issues

then some times that your reasonable in this way its taken the oposite & some times there are hidden agendas or underlying issue

get the facts the truth
some truths wil never be known

 

[EDouble]

None of this excuses the extremes thers aot of black and white

 

[The Phyx]

I kind of understand where Stone was going, but I dont agree with many of his statements. He does open the door to an interesting debate. Reparations were given to many jewish families from the united states, which I feel is well deserved. However, the reparations repayed to native "americans" during the invasion of this land, to african "americans" during slavery and japanese "americans" during WWII are non existent and it does make you wonder why. then you look at who is holding bank book at the end of the day, who are the directers, producers, investors, in Hollywood and the music industry and you begin to wonder where the balance is. Also, in the US, the Holocaust is definitely taught as a genocide against jews, where a few million christians were killed as well. Ask any american high school student today what V Day is, or ask what other countries Hitler invaded, and they have no clue. They can ramble of the estimated number of jews that were exterminated, or they can give you the names of a few concentration camps...Schnindler's Lsit, Inglorious Bastards, Diary of Anne Frank, all good movies and deserve praise, dont get me wrong. But who can post (without looking them up on google first) three award winning movies that dealt with the invasion and displacement of native americans, the theft and civial destruction of mexican and southwestern native american land and culture, african american slavery, and japanese american imprisonment during WWII....

 

[Tha_Wood]

I kind of understand where Stone was going, but I dont agree with many of his statements. He does open the door to an interesting debate. Reparations were given to many jewish families from the united states, which I feel is well deserved. However, the reparations repayed to native "americans" during the invasion of this land, to african "americans" during slavery and japanese "americans" during WWII are non existent and it does make you wonder why. then you look at who is holding bank book at the end of the day, who are the directers, producers, investors, in Hollywood and the music industry and you begin to wonder where the balance is. Also, in the US, the Holocaust is definitely taught as a genocide against jews, where a few million christians were killed as well. Ask any american high school student today what V Day is, or ask what other countries Hitler invaded, and they have no clue. They can ramble of the estimated number of jews that were exterminated, or they can give you the names of a few concentration camps...Schnindler's Lsit, Inglorious Bastards, Diary of Anne Frank, all good movies and deserve praise, dont get me wrong. But who can post (without looking them up on google first) three award winning movies that dealt with the invasion and displacement of native americans, the theft and civial destruction of mexican and southwestern native american land and culture, african american slavery, and japanese american imprisonment during WWII....

welcome to the board.

 

[Ristol]

Phyx: You're right that American high school students have no idea what countries Hitler invaded, but that isn't because they don't teach it in American high schools. It's because most American high school students cannot identify Germany, Poland, France, or anywhere else on a map. Iraq or Afghanistan? Not a chance. There is a very strong current of know-nothingness in this country.

 

[Pittsey]

Phyx: You're right that American high school students have no idea what countries Hitler invaded, but that isn't because they don't teach it in American high schools. It's because most American high school students cannot identify Germany, Poland, France, or anywhere else on a map. Iraq or Afghanistan? Not a chance. There is a very strong current of know-nothingness in this country.

lol

Harsh. I assume you have history lessons and geography lessons in the US? What do they teach? American History? North American Geography?

 

[Ristol]

lol

Harsh. I assume you have history lessons and geography lessons in the US? What do they teach? American History? North American Geography?

They teach that and world geography. My point is it's not as if they don't teach it. American kids for some reason refuse to know things.

Also: I didn't go to public schools, but in the schools I went to at least, colonialism was painted in very broad strokes. Manifest destiny was taught with a decidedly jingoist bent from the time I was very young. The usual stuff, I think. Andrew Jackson was a war hero and not a serial killer, etc.

I'm assuming English schools gloss over genocide in Ireland?

 

[Pittsey]

They teach that and world geography. My point is it's not as if they don't teach it. American kids for some reason refuse to know things.

Also: I didn't go to public schools, but in the schools I went to at least, colonialism was painted in very broad strokes. Manifest destiny was taught with a decidedly jingoist bent from the time I was very young. The usual stuff, I think. Andrew Jackson was a war hero and not a serial killer, etc.

I'm assuming English schools gloss over genocide in Ireland?

We remove Eire from our world maps.


Honestly though. England is very proper. We are prepared to learn about all the times we looted and plundered other societies. We accept that at times we were doing bad. It's typical of the English, and there are equal positives and negatives. But it's what I like about the place. We are very honest about our history.

 

[Ristol]

Pittsey:

I've been dreaming of a time when the English are sick to death of Labour and Tories, and spit upon the name Oliver Cromwell; and denounce this royal line that still salutes him.

Anyway, that's good about not running away from your history. I guess the point here is that there are Americans and British who simply don't know their history. I would assume a greater percentage of Americans are ignorant.