Interesting....

[Shahin]

considering the vast majority of problems, wars, suffering, denial of human rights, etc are caused by religion, I would say yes. It does matter.

Usually religion is a way to rally the people under a banner, the direct reasons for most conflicts are issues of land, resources and money, though there are exceptions obviously. I can't off the top of my head think of many conflicts where religion is the fundamental issue.

 

[masta247]

As it seems it's not that simple:

Where do atheists come from? - opinion - 03 March 2010 - New Scientist

It's worth reading the whole article.

Interesting findings:

What is more, the survey shows a far stronger correlation between education and certain "irrational" beliefs: for example, only 29.6 per cent of those without even an elementary education believe in telepathy, compared with 51.8 per cent of people with degree-level education.

Closer to home, an analysis of the 2008 British Social Attitudes (BSA) survey by David Voas of the University of Manchester reveals that the historical correlation between being educated and being "non-religious" has not only weakened but reversed. Looking at white British people, for example, the findings show that only around 25 per cent of men aged between 25 and 34 claiming "no religion" have degrees, compared with around 40 per cent of those describing themselves as religious. For women in the same age group, the difference is less marked but the trend is the same. The picture is more complicated across different ethnic groups, although the overall trend remains the same.

It appears that Enlightenment assumptions about the decline of religion as the population becomes more educated will no longer do - at least, not without considerable qualification. Why is it that, despite the long history of the study of religion, the picture seems to be getting more and not less confused about what it means to believe in God? We, and the scholars who gathered in December last year for a conference at Wolfson College, University of Oxford, think we may have the answer. The problems stem from a long-term, collective blind spot in research: atheism itself.

 

[Casey]

/\ That study falls short because it assumes that educated/intelligent = having a degree.

I do not have a degree, however I am far more intelligent and educated (self-educated) than many of the people I grew up with who went to university and now have degrees. In fact, I regularly give guest lectures at the University of Central England to students who are older than I am.

 

[masta247]

Maybe you don't need to study to do what you want to do/ achieve what you want. However I think it's fair to assume that most intelligent people do study.
I think it's also fair to assume that people who have only basic education are on average less intelligent than people holding a degree. I think overall it measures intelligence better than IQ tests which in fact just measures the ability to recognize and match patterns in a short amount of time.
Especially the "people holding no elementary education" vs. "those holding a degree" is a powerful comparison.

 

[Casey]

Maybe you don't need to study to do what you want to do/ achieve what you want. However I think it's fair to assume that most intelligent people do study.
I think it's also fair to assume that people who have only basic education are on average less intelligent than people holding a degree. I think overall it measure intelligence better than IQ tests which in fact just measure the ability to recognize and match patterns in a short amount of time.

Completely disagree. I've met a bunch of highly intelligent people who don't have degrees because they knew what they wanted to do in life and began to work towards that directly, bypassing the education system.

In fact, many of the people I know who have degrees are very unintelligent, because they just went to university because it's what everyone does, fucked around for 2 or 3 years and barely scraped by to get their degree doing the minimum amount of work.

At least that's what I've observed in England, amongst "White British Males" - the exact same target group mentioned in that piece.

 

[masta247]

It's true that these days almost anyone can study. However to study in the first place you have to finish school and to get a degree you also need a certain level of intelligence. While there are intelligent people who just didn't want to study I think that most people don't study because of their lack of intelligence or other related factors. Some don't study because they can't afford it or any other reasons. I think that the no.1 reason is that a person couldn't handle it intellectually though.

Maybe there are universities you can pass with minimum work just studying for exams here and there but I still believe most of them are demanding.
I know that in my university and most good universities my friends are at it's not easy - those who can't really comprehend what's up drop out during their first semesters and it's about 50-70% of people depending on their major. On 2nd or 3rd year it'd be really hard to find someone who's not above average if it comes to intelligence. Others just can't make it.

I agree that there are intelligent people who don't study but then I believe that MOST people with no elementary education aren't really smart. I'm convinced that people holding a degree ON AVERAGE are more intelligent than those with no education at all. It's something quite obvious to me and a measure of intelligence that is more accurate than IQ tests. There are even total idiots in Mensa.

 

[Lil KaMiKaZe]

Completely disagree. I've met a bunch of highly intelligent people who don't have degrees because they knew what they wanted to do in life and began to work towards that directly, bypassing the education system.

In fact, many of the people I know who have degrees are very unintelligent, because they just went to university because it's what everyone does, fucked around for 2 or 3 years and barely scraped by to get their degree doing the minimum amount of work.

At least that's what I've observed in England, amongst "White British Males" - the exact same target group mentioned in that piece.

Damn, i agree with casey,so eveything's possible **go to the top of a building to jump and fly"**

 

[masta247]

Damn, i agree with casey,so eveything's possible **go to the top of a building to jump and fly"**

Are you an university student?

 

[Bobby Sands]

It's true that these days almost anyone can study. However to study in the first place you have to finish school and to get a degree you also need a certain level of intelligence. While there are intelligent people who just didn't want to study I think that most people don't study because of their lack of intelligence or other related factors. Some don't study because they can't afford it or any other reasons. I think that the no.1 reason is that a person couldn't handle it intellectually though.

Maybe there are universities you can pass with minimum work just studying for exams here and there but I still believe most of them are demanding.
I know that in my university and most good universities my friends are at it's not easy - those who can't really comprehend what's up drop out during their first semesters and it's about 50-70% of people depending on their major. On 2nd or 3rd year it'd be really hard to find someone who's not above average if it comes to intelligence. Others just can't make it.

I agree that there are intelligent people who don't study but then I believe that MOST people with no elementary education aren't really smart. I'm convinced that people holding a degree ON AVERAGE are more intelligent than those with no education at all. It's something quite obvious to me and a measure of intelligence that is more accurate than IQ tests. There are even total idiots in Mensa.

Some people may be intelligent but just cant apply themselve to study. There is also the fact that some people just dont know what they want to do when its time to go to college. some peope go into course they dont like and it becomes extremely tough to get through it because they lack the motivation.

 

[Chronic]

It's true that these days almost anyone can study. However to study in the first place you have to finish school and to get a degree you also need a certain level of intelligence. While there are intelligent people who just didn't want to study I think that most people don't study because of their lack of intelligence or other related factors. Some don't study because they can't afford it or any other reasons. I think that the no.1 reason is that a person couldn't handle it intellectually though.

Maybe there are universities you can pass with minimum work just studying for exams here and there but I still believe most of them are demanding.
I know that in my university and most good universities my friends are at it's not easy - those who can't really comprehend what's up drop out during their first semesters and it's about 50-70% of people depending on their major. On 2nd or 3rd year it'd be really hard to find someone who's not above average if it comes to intelligence. Others just can't make it.

I agree that there are intelligent people who don't study but then I believe that MOST people with no elementary education aren't really smart. I'm convinced that people holding a degree ON AVERAGE are more intelligent than those with no education at all. It's something quite obvious to me and a measure of intelligence that is more accurate than IQ tests. There are even total idiots in Mensa.

What about the people who can't afford college or didn't grow up in an environment that pushed them to study?
What about other attributes required to get a degree? I've met several "unintelligent" people who got great grades because they study intently and rigorously.
What about highly intelligent people that attend college but aren't stimulated because the college is too "low" for them? High school is a more likely scenario for this but like Bobby said, this may lead to a lack of motivation.

What's the correlation between intelligence and trying to get a degree?
Although I think IQ tests merely test how well a person functions within a certain system I score above/well above average on everything but verbal skills and people around me always say I'm intelligent. I have no interest in attending college. I r stupid?
What about every single intelligent person on the planet that wants to pursue something in life that doesn't require a degree?

The more knowledge a person has the more that person has to work with. An intelligent person with very little knowledge will most likely come across as "stupid" compared to a less intelligent person with a lot of knowledge.
Compare a highly intelligent farmer (who lives in a rural area) with a person of average intelligence that's very well-read and can spew knowledge. Judging by your posts I think you'd say the farmer is less intelligent without hesitation.

 

[Flipmo]

Getting a degree = being able to remember what you studied. That is all. (There are obviously exemptions to the rule, but for the most part, it stands)

Most people will just recite what they've read and make themselves look brilliant, but it takes an actual intelligent person to read between the lines, analyze what he reads, and compare and contrasts with all the other information given to him to come up with his own view of the world instead of what is regurgitated to him.

In the end, schools, universities and trade programs are all the same; they're all businesses offering a product that will be forever in demand; a degree and a future.

The problem is now that people have been brainwashed that getting a degree is necessary to be successful, while being a brick layer is for the moron. Little do people know, I could make twice as much being a damn electrician than being an accountant (not that any of those 2 are my field). In the end, if you love what you do, you will find ways to bring in money, if you wake up every morning hating your life and have trouble getting out of bed - you'll never excel in your profession.

 

[masta247]

Jesus fucking Christ. I feel attacked by people who don't study
All I said was "on average". I'm not saying that you guys here who don't study are less intelligent.
I'd like to find me a study which measures intelligence of people with no education vs those with a degree. I think it's pretty much a fact that studies require some intelligence. It requires people to at least comprehend the information they're being taught. Not everyone can study. I know a lot of people who didn't study or dropped out because they couldn't handle it. Way more than those who couldn't afford it or had these "different goals". Being uneducated though doesn't require anything than (in most cases) lack of interest in education.

What about the people who can't afford college or didn't grow up in an environment that pushed them to study?
What about other attributes required to get a degree? I've met several "unintelligent" people who got great grades because they study intently and rigorously.
What about highly intelligent people that attend college but aren't stimulated because the college is too "low" for them? High school is a more likely scenario for this but like Bobby said, this may lead to a lack of motivation.

I clearly mentioned that there are other reasons like being unable to afford education.
I can't picture an "unintelligent" person graduating from a good university. MAYBE some humanistic classes where all you need to do is remember information and then write down the same thing on your exams which probably does not require much intelligence. But it still requires some of it!

Maybe we have different definitions of intelligence?
According to wikipedia:

Intelligence is an umbrella term describing a property of the mind comprehending related abilities, such as the capacities for abstract thought, reasoning, planning and problem solving, the use of language, and to learn.

Sorry, but to me lack of these doesn't go well with any studies. All of them are required in some way to get a degree. In technical majors lack of them would result in a huge failure. I hope there are no universities that give away diplomas to engineers who aren't great at these things.
I agree though that if someone's great at one of these thing he might be considered as intelligent despite sucking at others. For example someone might have great language skills and be overall intelligent but be a foreigner who sucks at english. Or might be speaking flawlessly but lacking reasoning or problem solving skills. I think the "intelligence" people perceive doesn't have much to do with real intelligence. You might call someone an idiot while in fact he might be the smartest guy. Personality traits and charisma play a bigger role here and make things totally and utterly inaccurate. I'm sure that many intelligent guys here aren't really perceived as intelligent while there are "smart guys" that aren't as intelligent.

What's the correlation between intelligence and trying to get a degree?

Trying to get a degree - probably the fact that intelligence also means the pursuit of knowledge. You want to study to feed your mind.
Then graduating - finishing a specific university is hard or impossible in many (I hope most) cases without intelligence.
You wouldn't pass any technical course without skills linked directly with intelligence.

I have no interest in attending college. I r stupid?
What about every single intelligent person on the planet that wants to pursue something in life that doesn't require a degree?

Well, my personal experiences show that they'll want to get a degree anyway for their own pleasure. If you're intelligent you want to learn and getting a degree is probably the best way to do so.

The more knowledge a person has the more that person has to work with. An intelligent person with very little knowledge will most likely come across as "stupid" compared to a less intelligent person with a lot of knowledge.
Compare a highly intelligent farmer (who lives in a rural area) with a person of average intelligence that's very well-read and can spew knowledge. Judging by your posts I think you'd say the farmer is less intelligent without hesitation.

Because like I said, intelligent people want to learn. If you don't give a shit about knowledge then most probably you're not intelligent.
I've met intelligent people from rural areas so don't be that quick to judge me. On average these farmers would be probably less intelligent though since intelligent people from rural areas would probably attend some school. Even if you don't count those who enjoy their lives there and for some reason wouldn't want to study, or those who are smart but didn't study for any reason still we would get a clear statistic.

I think most people who study would agree that the amount of idiots decrease the longer you study - they become drop-outs.
And we're talking about statistics and not rare cases when someone doesn't want to study and is intelligent.

 

[masta247]

Getting a degree = being able to remember what you studied. That is all. (There are obviously exemptions to the rule, but for the most part, it stands)

First you have to learn it. How can you learn it without some sort of intelligence?
In most cases studying is not just reading text and memorizing it.
There are problems to solve and decisions to make. How can you do it without above average intelligence?
If you can't then bye-bye university or go and study roman culture or whatever.

 

[Flipmo]

Sorry to say, but yes. Most cases studying is reading the text - remembering - and repeating what professors believe. When you write an exam and its:

- Multiple choice --> Memory
- Short answer questions --> Memory
- Short essay --> Remember what the professor stated, what you read, and glue it together with an argument that was stated over the last 50 years

This is the same for math. It's taking a damn formula and using it. Psychologists end up having to remember the DSM-IV - the entire fucking thing. For the most part, it is memorization. My friend just graduated from Finance and he's works at a bank. He tells me he feels like hes wasted 3 years of his life when only 5 months of it felt useful; everything he does at his work has fuck all to do with what he was told would prepare him.

There are professors that allow you to analyze and usually those are in big papers due, and allow you to interpret things in your own way, which I'm happy that in my program (History) it allows so, but then again much is memorization.

Learning is not a hard thing to do, we each have our own methods of learning; some is visual, others repetition, some by hearing and some ppl just learn better one subject than the next. Learning doesn't mean intelligence per say - most of the time it's trial and error. So this method didn't work for you? Alright, lets try this. This subject is not getting through? Alright, lets work on this. Human cognition is selective on subject and style. So, yes there is a basis of intelligence require to learn, but nonetheless ... learning doesn't make you knowledgeable.

Edit: I know I may be sounding a bit extreme, but if you were to spend 1 year taking classes in my school and having to see people not being able to write a paper without using any sort of punctuation, or believe a paragraph is 2 lines, or better yet... someone that gets nothing but straight As but doesn't know what the word 'Barbarian' means and hear other stupid statements. You'd find it quite hard to feel like you've earned the right to attend these facilities of 'higher-intelligence'. It's all about that piece of paper in the end, the one that will get you a job over someone more experienced than you, that doesn't have it.

 

[Chronic]

Trying to get a degree - probably the fact that intelligence also means the pursuit of knowledge. You want to study to feed your mind.
Then graduating - finishing a specific university is hard or impossible in many (I hope most) cases without intelligence.
You wouldn't pass any technical course without skills linked directly with intelligence.

This is what I'm judging you on. It's as if getting a degree is the way to go and any intelligent person will automatically long for a degree if there's nothing pulling them elsewhere. There's always been an air of arrogance surrounding university. It's like high society looking down on the plebs. The intelligent people go to university, unintelligent people become laborers.

Explain how a pursuit of knowledge will land a person with a degree. I can see how it may lead them to enroll in some classes but to me it's much more evident for an intelligent person to study on their own and only branch out when they need to. I don't know him personally so I'm only guessing but I'm pretty sure Jokerman didn't get all of his knowledge from acquiring numerous degrees, he bought his own books and studied on his own.

Isn't the term 'knowledge' is subjective either? An expert in farts is still an expert. Is a business degree something you'd consider a hallmark of intelligence?

And do you really think the majority of people get a degree because they have a lust for knowledge? It's for the job opportunities, the accolade on your personal record or simply because that's what people do.
A degree is a requirement for certain goals, no more, no less.

you want to learn and getting a degree is probably the best way to do so.

Why? Why isn't self-study (less pressure, more time, the opportunity to study more than one field etc.) better?

I clearly mentioned that there are other reasons

You say that but you don't seem to take those into account when you talk about people that are forced to drop out. Getting a degree isn't filling out a single test, it's 4+ years of working. You're just wrong if you think it's a race that only intelligent people get to finish when there are numerous factors in the play. What % of people with a degree are highly intelligent? What % of people with a degree are of average intelligent?

Sorry, but to me lack of these doesn't go well with any studies.

Only a dead person lacks those however.

 

[Shadows]

It's not about being able to complete the assignments at home or in class (Whether the problem is assigned in life or in school), but it's about understanding the underlying concepts and how they might apply to other problems/situations in one's career to be successful.

Those underlying concepts can be learned through talking, listening and observing, or (scholarly) or on oneself *Reading and studying*.

(Ex. See Good Will Hunting)

 

[Da_Funk]

Getting a degree = being able to remember what you studied. That is all. (There are obviously exemptions to the rule, but for the most part, it stands)

Most people will just recite what they've read and make themselves look brilliant, but it takes an actual intelligent person to read between the lines, analyze what he reads, and compare and contrasts with all the other information given to him to come up with his own view of the world instead of what is regurgitated to him.

In the end, schools, universities and trade programs are all the same; they're all businesses offering a product that will be forever in demand; a degree and a future.

The problem is now that people have been brainwashed that getting a degree is necessary to be successful, while being a brick layer is for the moron. Little do people know, I could make twice as much being a damn electrician than being an accountant (not that any of those 2 are my field). In the end, if you love what you do, you will find ways to bring in money, if you wake up every morning hating your life and have trouble getting out of bed - you'll never excel in your profession.

I'm gonna say you guys are sort've right, I'll write more later. I'm gonna totally disagree with your first line though. To get any kind of arts degree all it shows is that you can remember what you study. If you are in a worthwhile degree, i.e. something to do with science you need to be intelligent and cannot simply just "remember" what you studied. Anyone who thinks otherwise is full of shit.

And flipmo, if you actually believe all math is, is taking a formula and using it well lets just say you need to stop talking.

 

[Flipmo]

Well no, I was kinda exaggerating and ranting. I know there is a lot more to it, I'm just still pretty fumed at some idiot today in my class, who's a math major that was just talking out of his ass. So I made ppl in sciences a target lol. I do believe there is a lot of repetition, and that the Maths you start off with is a building block for the advanced stuff. Nor do I think, if you're in these sciences you're smarter than those in the arts. Say that to the individual last week who's graduating soon and rejects all claims of evolution; he's in engineering and won't even consider the idea. Gangly ass Russian mofo - creeps me the fuck out.

 

[masta247]

Edit: I know I may be sounding a bit extreme, but if you were to spend 1 year taking classes in my school and having to see people not being able to write a paper without using any sort of punctuation, or believe a paragraph is 2 lines, or better yet... someone that gets nothing but straight As but doesn't know what the word 'Barbarian' means and hear other stupid statements. You'd find it quite hard to feel like you've earned the right to attend these facilities of 'higher-intelligence'.

Yeah that sounds really extreme to me.
Personally I don't know people who are THAT stupid but we also had idiots trying their luck. My experience says that at least my university and my friends' universities are great "idiot-filters". The biggest idiots I know are either high school drop-outs or failed to pass their high school exams.
I'm not saying there are no guys of average intelligence getting past the 2nd semester but there's no "remembering" here. The only courses we had to remember to pass were basics of law and business (like management, micro and macroeconomics with formulas and definitions).
However even passing them meant solving new problems using the knowledge we had in a short amount of time. Other than that for example you can't be a good programmer without good IQ - it's just impossible. And to pass programming you have to write a working program doing whatever you're told in 1.5 hour.
Database engineering also means high reasoning skills and creativity. Discrete Mathematics, advanced physics - there are no simple formulas there, you just have to understand it and learn how to solve.
Same with most other technical subjects. I'm not saying you need ultra-high Intelligence to pass since there are people who weren't really into some of these things and had to study a lot but people below average just failed, no matter how hard they tried.

However here we have public and private schools. Public schools are a bit behind and so you will find classic tests and exams to happen quite often.
Some private schools are below average if it comes to the level of education.
Then there are good private schools which are expensive but really teach well and teach you everything you need in a proper way to make you good at something. They're very innovative.
Then there are good public schools that are trying to be fresh and innovative too.
I study at a great private school, most of my friends study at good public schools and I have some experience from one too.
My friend studies biotechnology in a public university and while he has tests you also have to pass things that require at least average intelligence to pass. However my high school "mate" studies history in a worse university but still he had some mandatory apprenticeship - failing meant getting kicked out and obviously there was no way to not know what a "barbarian" means.

The weak link here though is formed by terrible private schools with low standards. They are usually located in smaller towns and their level of education is probably below American bad.
I don't know a single person who graduated from one though so I can't comment.


The last time I wrote an exam like you mentioned was in my high school - that was when we had multiple answers or maths was all about formulas.
Now you just have to be intelligent to handle things.
If a University can't prepare you to your job then there's something wrong either with the school itself or the system. Obviously it won't give you enough work experience though - that's what you need to take care of by yourself.

 

[Da_Funk]

What about the people who can't afford college or didn't grow up in an environment that pushed them to study?
What about other attributes required to get a degree? I've met several "unintelligent" people who got great grades because they study intently and rigorously.
What about highly intelligent people that attend college but aren't stimulated because the college is too "low" for them? High school is a more likely scenario for this but like Bobby said, this may lead to a lack of motivation.

What's the correlation between intelligence and trying to get a degree?
Although I think IQ tests merely test how well a person functions within a certain system I score above/well above average on everything but verbal skills and people around me always say I'm intelligent. I have no interest in attending college. I r stupid?
What about every single intelligent person on the planet that wants to pursue something in life that doesn't require a degree?

The more knowledge a person has the more that person has to work with. An intelligent person with very little knowledge will most likely come across as "stupid" compared to a less intelligent person with a lot of knowledge.
Compare a highly intelligent farmer (who lives in a rural area) with a person of average intelligence that's very well-read and can spew knowledge. Judging by your posts I think you'd say the farmer is less intelligent without hesitation.

Anyone idiot can pick up a book and remember what is in it. In no way whatsoever does that make the person intelligent. Knowing that e=mc^2 and knowing how and why e=mc^2 are two seperate things.