Stem Cells cure Blind Man

[Sebastian]

Well, you say you:

I will tend to hate it simply because I hate it when people are sheep even if the film might not be that bad.

If you later on watch the movie and theoretically it sucks ass, you hate the movie itself too, right?

So i started hating religion because of its followers and their stupidity. Then i took a look at the religion itself and saw it is really as stupid as its followers. So i end up hating believers and religion. Where am i wrong?

(Im using the word hate just for the sake of it. Its not actually hate but it doesnt matter in this case).

 

[S O F I]

I never said you were wrong.

 

[Sebastian]

1)You said i am (with what im doing)
2)We cant both be right

 

[Chronic]

In my opinion a normal religious person is someone who believes in a higher being and/or follows some specific moral rules that are basic in a specific religion (like 10 commandments).

There's a difference between a religious person and a person who believes in God/a higher power. A religious person actually practises the teachings (which is far more than the 10 commandments). I think you're talking about cultural "religious" people. They grow up in an environment where people believe in God, they'll follow the most basic rules (that you would mostly follow regardless of God anyway) so they don't fear hell but all in all they live like atheists.

Those aren't religious people, they're just people who accept God because it makes them feel better. A person who believes in a higher power that isn't the Abrahamic God isn't religious either.

 

[masta247]

There's a difference between a religious person and a person who believes in God/a higher power. A religious person actually practises the teachings (which is far more than the 10 commandments). I think you're talking about cultural "religious" people. They grow up in an environment where people believe in God, they'll follow the most basic rules (that you would mostly follow regardless of God anyway) so they don't fear hell but all in all they live like atheists.

Those aren't religious people, they're just people who accept God because it makes them feel better. A person who believes in a higher power that isn't the Abrahamic God isn't religious either.

And I don't know a "religious" person in the US who doesn't have most of these points. Now you have an idea of why we atheists sound so angry sometimes. We're tired of lunatics having a say in things they know nothing about.

What Jokerman said might sound exaggerated, but it really isn't and I don't even live in the Bible Belt.

Quite frankly I'd be annoyed with these people too. I've never met a religious person trying to push his beliefs on me but if I saw one I'd be annoyed, I don't find it acceptable. If you're religious keep that to yourself. Obviously religion in my country has changed a lot over the last bunch of years. We are officially a Catholic country. I don't remember the statistics but almost everyone is said to be religious (definitely over 90%). Maybe that's the reason nobody pushes his religion - everyone is said to believe the same thing.
The thing is that a small percentage of them actually goes to church - usually in smaller towns or villages since almost every village has it's own Church while in bigger cities for example the closest one from my home is 30 minutes away and I live almost in the middle of the city.
However my view on religious people is what Chronic has said about "believers". Quite frankly I don't separate these 2 groups since I find them essentially the same and the type of people you guys describe as religious are pretty much obsessed or really "unbelievably religious" to me.
Even old people who are heavily religious here don't act like that, even though they have crosses and Jesus paintings on their walls and go to church on holidays.
I'd say the biggest problem from what I see here is the fact that the people you describe force their religion on other people and they do it in an annoying way. That's pretty much what I see here coming from atheists so it's not like some of you are any better (since it's the other extreme) but now I understand the reason.

 

[Casey]

. That's pretty much what I see here coming from atheists so it's not like some of you are any better (since it's the other extreme) but now I understand the reason.

The thing is that if you are opposing a force, you have to oppose it with a stronger force, or at least an equal one.

But the problem is that you can't reason with delusional idiots, by their very nature. That's the most annoying thing.

It's like, if you believed that blood was a sparkly silver color, and I told you it was actually red, I provided you with lots of photographs of blood clearly showing that it was red, i cut myself in front of you to show you it was red, and I provided a 10,000 word analysis on the study of blood being red, and then you go and say "well i believe that blood is sparkly silver colored and i've always believed that and therefore will continue to believe that despite all evidence to the contrary".

That's what religion is. You believe something despite there being no basis for that belief, no evidence for that belief, a ton of evidence against that belief, but you believe it anyway.

That is called a delusion and that person is clearly an idiot.

 

[masta247]

It's like, if you believed that blood was a sparkly silver color, and I told you it was actually red, I provided you with lots of photographs of blood clearly showing that it was red, i cut myself in front of you to show you it was red, and I provided a 10,000 word analysis on the study of blood being red, and then you go and say "well i believe that blood is sparkly silver colored and i've always believed that and therefore will continue to believe that despite all evidence to the contrary".

Well, you can prove the fact that blood isn't silver but you can't prove that God doesn't exist but it might seem fairly obvious to you because it's more rational.
However nobody in here tries to convince others that God exists.
It's merely defending the right to have your own faith that is other to not having any faith in "higher beings" and pointing out that there are some positive sides to that.
I myself would be annoyed if others tried to force their beliefs on me. That's what believers probably feel while reading this board though.

The thing is that if you are opposing a force, you have to oppose it with a stronger force, or at least an equal one.

I think there should be a different way since this is doing exactly the same thing that the people you hate do, just in the name of a different "faith".

 

[Casey]

I think there should be a different way since this is doing exactly the same thing that the people you hate do, just in the name of a different "faith".

Well, the Allies had to go to war and kill lots of people in order to defeat the Nazi's.

Clearly although both sides were killing people, one is right and one is wrong.

 

[S O F I]

1)You said i am (with what im doing)
2)We cant both be right

When did I say you were WRONG for doing what you do?

I said your anger was misplaced based on your posts. You said that while you hated believers first, you then started hating religion too. I didn't see the "hate" for religion in your posts. For example, I never saw you quote a parable from the Bible and say "wow, this is stupid", etc. Whatever, though. If you want to say your anger isn't misplaced, fine.

 

[S O F I]

There's a difference between a religious person and a person who believes in God/a higher power. A religious person actually practises the teachings (which is far more than the 10 commandments). I think you're talking about cultural "religious" people. They grow up in an environment where people believe in God, they'll follow the most basic rules (that you would mostly follow regardless of God anyway) so they don't fear hell but all in all they live like atheists.

Duke and I talked about this last night. He was wondering why I was playing the "devil's advocate" role since he never knew me to be religious. And I told him that I'm really not religious, and if you look at my life, I live the life of an atheist. The difference between me and an atheist is that I don't feel the need to make up my mind and choose a side between being a believer and an atheist. I just simply keep an open mind. I don't view the world differently and I don't deny science at all. Simply, I don't exclude the possibility of a higher power while an atheist does. I guess I'm agnostic. Aside from the time we take to engage in religious debates, our lives aren't any different at all in terms of religion. What boggles my mind at times, is the atheist NEED to assert with CERTAINTY the absence of deities. Then, when I think about it, it's probably because they get angry with believers, bla bla. Point being, I don't see the need to assert with certainty (because, there is no certainty in this case), the absence of deities. A lot of it, on an individual level, is carving an identity for yourself. People want to be identified as atheists because it implicitly says something about them, similar with how people WANT to be identified as vegetarians because it says something about them. It's all related to identities that we seek as persons. I don't have a firm grasp on any identity. I'm not "that" guy. Most people want to be "that" guy.

 

[Jokerman]

Yeah, Poland is largely Catholic and I think that's the difference in how you, masta, see religion and how we do in the US and England, say. In the US, except for the Catholic Church's annoying doctrines and dictates, Catholics are probably the least religious people there are. They barely read or know their Bible and they leave the preaching to their priests, who are as boring as can be. The only time anyone sees them being religious is maybe when they take the Church's position on things or we see some old woman counting rosary beads. I hardly notice them. It's the Evangelicals and Apostolic and Babtist denominations that run around like lunatics, speaking in tongues and Jesus this, Jesus that. That's largely an American thing. Especially the black churches. I've been in them. They speak in tongues and fall on the ground and writhe around. Everyone's on the floor and I'm searching their pockets for change. That's why I go. No, but you really haven't been exposed to religious people if all you've known are Catholics. Or in England, Anglicans. That's like religion lite.

 

[Rukas]

Well, the Allies had to go to war and kill lots of people in order to defeat the Nazi's.

Clearly although both sides were killing people, one is right and one is wrong.

I think what you need to realize Casey, is that there is no right and wrong, black and white, there is only shades of grey and different perspectives.

You say the Nazi's were bad and the Allies were good, but it's not that simple. Hitler was good for the German people and economy, Stalin and Russia, one of the big 3 Allies, was almost as bad as Germany in the end.

Not everything is so one sided, and that is why it is so frustrating talking to you about these types of things. You are just as stubborn and one sided as those bible bashers you hate.

 

[Rukas]

Yeah, Poland is largely Catholic and I think that's the difference in how you, masta, see religion and how we do in the US and England, say. In the US, except for the Catholic Church's annoying doctrines and dictates, Catholics are probably the least religious people there are. They barely read or know their Bible and they leave the preaching to their priests, who are as boring as can be. The only time anyone sees them being religious is maybe when they take the Church's position on things or we see some old woman counting rosary beads. I hardly notice them. It's the Evangelicals and Apostolic and Babtist denominations that run around like lunatics, speaking in tongues and Jesus this, Jesus that. That's largely an American thing. Especially the black churches. I've been in them. They speak in tongues and fall on the ground and writhe around. Everyone's on the floor and I'm searching their pockets for change. That's why I go. No, but you really haven't been exposed to religious people if all you've known are Catholics. Or in England, Anglicans. That's like religion lite.

Agreed.


I just hate extremists, whether it be Christian, Muslim or Science.

 

[Flipmo]

Well, the Allies had to go to war and kill lots of people in order to defeat the Nazi's.

Clearly although both sides were killing people, one is right and one is wrong.

Eh... There are many layers to that.
America supplied much to Germany during wartime, which included punch-cards that helped round up Jews, Gypsies and Slavs twice as fast for example. So, how is that right?

When it comes to major wars, it's rarely a shade of black / white, I'm sure most agree.

 

[Casey]

I think what you need to realize Casey, is that there is no right and wrong, black and white, there is only shades of grey and different perspectives.

You say the Nazi's were bad and the Allies were good, but it's not that simple. Hitler was good for the German people and economy, Stalin and Russia, one of the big 3 Allies, was almost as bad as Germany in the end.

Not everything is so one sided, and that is why it is so frustrating talking to you about these types of things. You are just as stubborn and one sided as those bible bashers you hate.

There is some truth in what you are saying BUT that's not how history sees it.

Go out into the REAL world and try, just try having a conversation with people about the positive things that the Nazi regime brought about, then tell me the reaction you get.

I know all about the economical advances that the Third Reich brought on.......but at the end of the day that shit pales and becomes insignificant when you take into account the genocide of millions of people, both in Russia and Germany.

This stuff is just splitting hairs anyway. And nobody remembers the people whose opinions sat in the shades of grey. Those people, the agnostics, etc, are just sitting on the fence because they are scared to have an opinion one way or the other most of the time. Scared to have an opinion that could potentially be viewed as controversial.

Well, I don't give a fuck who I offend. If people want to get all angry at that, that's fine, but some of them are secretly wishing they could express their opinion the way I do, and many people tell me that in private. Fact.

 

[S O F I]

I reject the notion that agnostics are scared to have an opinion because it's controversial. By definition, controversy stems from the absence of facts and concrete knowledge. If people don't hold a controversial view, it's not that they are scared, it's that the facts and knowledge presented aren't enough for them to fully support one side and fully reject another.

I wouldn't have a problem with you saying that agnostics are scared to have an opinion or that people in general are scared to have opinions that are deemed controversial if I didn't know that on the other hand of that statement is you thinking to yourself you're a bad-ass for holding certain opinions. You are not.


However, I do think that some people in certain environments are scared to hold beliefs that go against the majority. I'm pretty sure that in some hick towns in the US in the Bible Belt, being a loud atheist would be bad-ass because you'd probably have your house burned down. Conducting abortions is bad-ass because doctors get killed for that. But, you, you aren't close to being in situations that warrant significant courage to continue with your beliefs.

I live in a liberal state, in a liberal city, attending a liberal institution, surrounded by liberal friends. If I were a pronounced atheist or a peta supporter, there would be nothing I'd be scared of. Now, If I walked around with a chetnik flag among the Bosnian-Muslim majority, that would be bad-ass and I'd be scared to simply because there would be threats on my life. But I don't walk around with chetnik flags in serb-majority areas either simply because I try to deviate from nationalism as it is not the person I wish to be.

 

[Flipmo]

I reject the notion that agnostics are scared to have an opinion because it's controversial. By definition, controversy stems from the absence of facts and concrete knowledge. If people don't hold a controversial view, it's not that they are scared, it's that the facts and knowledge presented aren't enough for them to fully support one side and fully reject another.

I wouldn't have a problem with you saying that agnostics are scared to have an opinion or that people in general are scared to have opinions that are deemed controversial if I didn't know that on the other hand of that statement is you thinking to yourself you're a bad-ass for holding certain opinions. You are not.


However, I do think that some people in certain environments are scared to hold beliefs that go against the majority. I'm pretty sure that in some hick towns in the US in the Bible Belt, being a loud atheist would be bad-ass because you'd probably have your house burned down. Conducting abortions is bad-ass because doctors get killed for that. But, you, you aren't close to being in situations that warrant significant courage to continue with your beliefs.

I live in a liberal state, in a liberal city, attending a liberal institution, surrounded by liberal friends. If I were a pronounced atheist or a peta supporter, there would be nothing I'd be scared of. Now, If I walked around with a chetnik flag among the Bosnian-Muslim majority, that would be bad-ass and I'd be scared to simply because there would be threats on my life. But I don't walk around with chetnik flags in serb-majority areas either simply because I try to deviate from nationalism as it is not the person I wish to be.

Not to throw in a cheap laugh and ruin your argument, but the looks that Mujo and Haso would give you once they spot you would be priceless. lol

 

[Jokerman]

I've always thought it curious that, while we atheists claim to not believe in God, He actually dominates our thoughts more than He does the clergy. And I'm not sure if that's more a reflection on us or on the clergy.

 

[Bender]

Definition of Irony: an Atheist who thinks that he's God.

:nuts:

 

[Jokerman]

The difference between me and an atheist is that I don't feel the need to make up my mind and choose a side between being a believer and an atheist. I just simply keep an open mind.

Just speaking for me. I’m only an atheist when it comes to the belief in the God of the Old and New Testaments, the Quran, and any other named god any culture has ever come up with. I’m only an atheist when it comes to the personal God or gods people believe in. However, I’m not an atheist when it comes to the idea that something unknown is going on with life, the universe and everything. Perhaps some purpose to everything. I’m an agnostic to that. I’m open to it. But it has to make sense to me and not be contradictory, as most god-beliefs have been. So you can be an atheist and an agnostic at the same time. Only not for the same thing.