Where is Jesus?

[W210]

Actually, pascals wager still wouldnt work. Because I worship the one true God, that created the heavens, earth, and man and their capability to create other gods to suit themselves. And I dont think life is a gamble, life is a sure thing, we will die, some people just like to gamble with their eternity, Im not one of em.

 

[TecK NeeX]

Actually, pascals wager still wouldnt work. Because I worship the one true God, that created the heavens, earth, and man and their capability to create other gods to suit themselves. And I dont think life is a gamble, life is a sure thing, we will die, some people just like to gamble with their eternity, Im not one of em.

Ah my bad then, I agree with you that some do embrace a religion because they fear the possibility of an Afterlife. Thats where i dont believe that will do them any good, unless they gradually build a relationship with him and mean it.

 

[Illuminattile]

first off Ive never wasted time or money worshipping God, and even if there was no God I wouldnt consider it wasting my time, because life itself would be completely meaningless. I could pull a Hitler if I wanted to because there would be no consequences when I die.

You could pull a "Hitler", yes. So could I. But I don't. And not because I'm scared somebody's gonna throw me into a lake of fire, but because I'm a good person. I can look at things through my own eyes and make moral judgments myself.

I really believe that deep down that everyone has that knowlege.

And I really believe that deep down, you know you're kidding yourself.

 

[Illuminattile]

Beef, Chicken, Sea Food, Buffalo, Deer meat all have better taste. Your life is not better than mine. I dont wanna eat meat that will eat Human beings. Thank you very much. i dont see where the fun in that is.

Of course you don't see the fun in it, because you're not allowed to do it.

[Some stuff about being allowed to do things...]

Don't flatter yourself, I wasn't referring to thing YOU can't do. All the things on that list are prohibited by various religions.

You asked me what I can do that religious people can't, I told you.

I didn't bring that up, you did, you're the one who thinks non-religious people can do a whole lot more a religious people could.

And they can, hence the list. Since I don't have a dusty old book telling me that I "shalt not" do things or telling me what's halal and what's haraam, I can do more than you.

Umm so then why did you bring Pascal's wager into this? what makes you think W210 is among those people and not the ones with faith? Are you God? reading his posts no where did he mention that he only believes in christianity because he fears judgement day. Good job jackass :thumb:

Umm, I didn't bring Pascal's wager into this. Go back a couple of pages, to before you realised that people were discussing religion without you (!) and you sprung into action to fight off the evil infidels, and you'll see that W210 was the one that brought up Pascal's wager.

I worship the one true God

The majority of people on the face of the earth disagree with that statement.

 

[TecK NeeX]

Of course you don't see the fun in it, because you're not allowed to do it.

Doesn't mean i havent tried it and ate it by accident now does it? Believe me I aint missing much though

Don't flatter yourself, I wasn't referring to thing YOU can't do. All the things on that list are prohibited by various religions.

You asked me what I can do that religious people can't, I told you.

Doesn't mean I aint making the most out of my life now does it? I really wanted something from you that you can do that will not make your life a waste and makes ours a waste if we dont do it. Not eating beef, pork and frog legs or no haircuts just doesn't quite cut it

By the way which religion prohibits getting a hair cut?

And they can, hence the list. Since I don't have a dusty old book telling me that I "shalt not" do things or telling me what's halal and what's haraam, I can do more than you.

Nothing that benefits me thats for sure. I'm perfectly fine with not doing them. I can do the things you "can" do that i refuse to do but im not an idiot. And my book is perfectly clean.

and you'll see that W210 was the one that brought up Pascal's wager.

Show me

 

[Glockmatic]

By the way which religion prohibits getting a hair cut?

sikhism

 

[TecK NeeX]

sikhism

I always thought Sikhs were just encouraged not to cut their hair and it was not a must. Atleast thats what i was told by sikhs. but eh whatever

 

[Glockmatic]

I always thought Sikhs were just encouraged not to cut their hair and it was not a must. Atleast thats what i was told by sikhs. but eh whatever

taken from a sikh website (just to clarify)

The Kesh

The Kesh refers to a Sikh's hair. A Sikh is not allowed to cut nor trim his or her hair - referring also to the beard. The Guru's accepted and emphasized the understanding that man was created in the true image of the Lord WaheGuru. They taught that the Lord WaheGuru is perfect in more ways than we can understand, therefore the human was created in an image that the Lord saw fit and it was clear that the hair on one's body was destined to grow. Hence to cut that hair is regarded as an act against the Lord's will.

http://www.sikh.net/SIKHISM/W/5kakar.htm

 

[W210]

You could pull a "Hitler", yes. So could I. But I don't. And not because I'm scared somebody's gonna throw me into a lake of fire, but because I'm a good person. I can look at things through my own eyes and make moral judgments myself.
QUOTE]

Two questions:
By whose standards do you consider yourself to be a good person?
And where do you get your moral values to make these judgements?

 

[Glockmatic]

By whose standards do you consider yourself to be a good person?
And where do you get your moral values to make these judgements?

so you're saying humans had no morals before religion?

 

[Valeoz]

Personally, I've seen many people who don't have morals but when became religious such as becoming a Chrisitian they learned morals. This is only to the fact not everyone is taught morals or hasn't been taught the right morals. Religion has a huge part in creating morality for many people. Unless there is a better proposition to fill the void religion is filling, religion will be here.

 

[Illuminattile]

Show me

But at the same time atheism is all if's and but's too. You are betting your life that it isnt true. If your right and Im wrong, when I die, so what. But if I'm right and your wrong, you will be paying for it forever.

Two questions:
By whose standards do you consider yourself to be a good person?
And where do you get your moral values to make these judgements?

Common sense. It doesn't take an all-knowing, all-seeing Lord and Master of the Universe to make basic judgements on "right" and "wrong", "good" and "bad". I'm a good person by my standards, and by society's standards. I'm not a criminal, so I guess that makes me a good person in the eyes of the law too.

 

[W210]

Common sense. It doesn't take an all-knowing, all-seeing Lord and Master of the Universe to make basic judgements on "right" and "wrong", "good" and "bad".

I agree, because God tells us he has given every man and woman a conscience to make moral judgements. You can go the most isolated peoples of the planet and they will still have the same basic moral standards as us. They know it is wrong to steal, kill, lie, commit adultry, ect.

I'm a good person by my standards, and by society's standards. I'm not a criminal, so I guess that makes me a good person in the eyes of the law too.

Doesnt make you a good person in the eyes of God, and thats the only thing that matters.

 

[Glockmatic]

I agree, because God tells us he has given every man and woman a conscience to make moral judgements. You can go the most isolated peoples of the planet and they will still have the same basic moral standards as us. They know it is wrong to steal, kill, lie, commit adultry, ect.

Then why would god tell us how to live? Like you said, even people in remote locations in the world who have never heard of Jesus have basic moral standards, why have it written in a book?

Doesnt make you a good person in the eyes of God, and thats the only thing that matters.

So you're telling me that if a person spent his entire life helping the less fortunate and doing nothing bad except maybe working on a sunday, he'd be sent to hell because he wasn't good in the eyes of god?

 

[Minardi]

Nice, when im getting a child, ill just handle either the bible or the quran over, and he'll be a sweetheart. (There are voice-over books right?)

 

[TecK NeeX]

Illuminatille, Pascals wager does not apply to w210's post. You yourself said that PW applies only to people who just adopt a religion for the sole reason of avoiding hell, W210 is not one of those people, he has faith. Therfore he did not bring up PW, you did. You're contradiciting yourself left right and center man.

Then why would god tell us how to live? Like you said, even people in remote locations in the world who have never heard of Jesus have basic moral standards, why have it written in a book?

God is not telling us how to live. He's giving us a choice how to live with the gift of free will to make that choice on our own. Good morals alone are not enough, He created us to be good, love and worship him and i dont see how that is possible without knowing how.

So you're telling me that if a person spent his entire life helping the less fortunate and doing nothing bad except maybe working on a sunday, he'd be sent to hell because he wasn't good in the eyes of god?

Life is not just about being a good person. If that was the case than that person will be loved by God. But its alot more than just that. A good person will be rewarded for his/her work but that individual will still be judged for not believing in God. Just like a person of faith will still be judged if the works of that person are bad. So its not just one or the other, its both faith and works. God is just

 

[W210]

Then why would god tell us how to live? Like you said, even people in remote locations in the world who have never heard of Jesus have basic moral standards, why have it written in a book?

I guess because we all need to be reminded, I know with myself it is easier to ignore my conscience somtimes but not the commandments of God even though they are the same thing. God gave us that Law (commandments) to act as a mirror, to show us how God sees us.

So you're telling me that if a person spent his entire life helping the less fortunate and doing nothing bad except maybe working on a sunday, he'd be sent to hell because he wasn't good in the eyes of god?

Even though nobody is that perfect...
Yes. God demands perfection, He is perfect and will not allow any sin into heaven. But no man is perfect thats why we need to be saved. 1 sin in our entire lifetime is enough to keep us from Him. Thats why God sent Jesus, a perfect man with no sin, to suffer and die on the cross to take the punishment for us. Then he rose from the dead and conquered death. So he was punished for every sin that you and I will ever commit. So if we humble ourselves, repent of our sins, and ask Him to save us, and we put our trust in Him, we will pass from death to life. And the Bible says that He'll give us a new heart with new desires ( I can vouch for that).
If Im not mistaken christianity is unique in this area, there is nothing we can do to earn our way into heaven, no salvation by works. Just listen to your conscience.

 

[Glockmatic]

for a diety that looks so closely for sins, i'm suprised he hasn't looked at his own. Didn't god kill repeately in the bible?

"The Lord smote the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the Lord, even he smote of the people 50,070 men: and the people lamented, because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter" (1 Sam. 6:19)

"the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died" (Num. 21:6)

"I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword...." (Amos 4:10)

doesn't sound like an all loving god to me, also jesus went against the ten commandments

Working on the sabbath
"And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done those things on the sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, 'My Father worketh hitherto, and I work'. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he had not only broken the sabbath...."(John 5:16-18 )

Stealing AND breaking the sabbath
"And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the heads of grain." (Mark 2:23)

Encourages stealing
And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples, saying unto them, 'Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me'." (Matthew 21).

Also god gave out BAD laws on purpose
"I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by...." (Ezek. 20:25 )

Oh you also can't forget about the 'killing all the first borns of egypt' thing, that wasn't very nice either. Infact every patriarch in the bible went against the ten commandments, did they all go to hell?

 

[Illuminattile]

Illuminatille, Pascals wager does not apply to w210's post. You yourself said that PW applies only to people who just adopt a religion for the sole reason of avoiding hell, W210 is not one of those people, he has faith. Therfore he did not bring up PW, you did. You're contradiciting yourself left right and center man.

What he said in that post WAS Pascal's Wager. Look, I'll post up Pascal's Wager for you;

You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose. This is one point settled. But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is.

He's saying exactly what W210 said. That argument, for the belief in God is called Pascal's wager. It has nothing to do with why W210 believes in God.

Do you understand now?

Life is not just about being a good person. If that was the case than that person will be loved by God. But its alot more than just that. A good person will be rewarded for his/her work but that individual will still be judged for not believing in God. Just like a person of faith will still be judged if the works of that person are bad. So its not just one or the other, its both faith and works. God is just

And you can't see how irrational that is? You can't see how unjust that is?

"Sorry, you lived a good life, but you were brought up to believe in a different God. Off to Hell you go."

"Sorry, you lived a good life, but you weren't convinced by a book written more than a thousand years containing no evidence of my existence. No Heaven for you."

If God puts so much stock in people accepting that he exists, the least he could do is give people a little evidence. It's impossible for someone to objectively look at all religions and decide which one is the "true God", if a true God exists at all.

 

[W210]

for a diety that looks so closely for sins, i'm suprised he hasn't looked at his own. Didn't god kill repeately in the bible?

"The Lord smote the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the Lord, even he smote of the people 50,070 men: and the people lamented, because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter" (1 Sam. 6:19)

"the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died" (Num. 21:6)

"I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword...." (Amos 4:10)

doesn't sound like an all loving god to me

He is a loving God, but at the same time he is a rightous God, that hates sin and will punish sin with death when He deems it neccessary.

Working on the sabbath
"And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done those things on the sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, 'My Father worketh hitherto, and I work'. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he had not only broken the sabbath...."(John 5:16-18 )

..."but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God". God put the commandments for us, not for himself. Its like when your young, your parents telling you to go to bed but they get to stay up late, It may not seem fair but they are in charge.

Stealing AND breaking the sabbath
"And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the heads of grain." (Mark 2:23)

Same deal, verse 28 "Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath." And it doesnt say the corn belonged to anyone.

Encourages stealing
And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples, saying unto them, 'Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me'." (Matthew 21).

Next verse: "And if any man says anything to you you shall say, The Lord has need of them and straightway he will send them" How can he steal somthing if they are willing to give it give it to them??

Also god gave out BAD laws on purpose
"I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by...." (Ezek. 20:25 )

It was a punishment for whatever people he is referring to in that passage. "Because they had not executed my judgements, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers Idols."

Every verse can look bad like that if you omit the cause or reason.

Oh you also can't forget about the 'killing all the first borns of egypt' thing, that wasn't very nice either. Infact every patriarch in the bible went against the ten commandments, did they all go to hell?

The egyptians were warned numerous times. Moses told them that that would happen, if they didnt release the people, and they didnt and God was faithful to His promise. Thats what can happen if you dont fear God. Really though how big of an idiot was pharoah for that, after all he had seen and been through.

Whether we like it or not our God is a consuming fire of Holiness, and we had better change because He isnt.