The David Irving Holocaust Trial

[Katarina]

I think that should be done. Not hold a speech about morals and values, but make them see, see and feel what happened then. Show them the images American forces made when they discovered the camps. Show them the pictures of starving humans, mass graves. Show them the insitutions for mass genocide. Show them and they will shut up.

I agree with this. I do, however, understand why it is a crime to deny the holocaust in Austria (I believe it's the same in Germany? Correct me if I'm wrong) since Austria was very much involved in the holocaust, but I would consider what Duke said a much better "punishment" for denying it than jail.

 

[Kareem]

damn... whatever happened to the freedom of speech most of you were so proud of a few threads ago...

:thumb: exactly, freedom of speech only see's favor when it favors ones cause or beliefs. Like someone else mentioned here the Jews werent the only ones who suffered during WW2 an the Nazi Era, many different groups an races, religeons, whatever did also, but the Jewish holocaust is what is constently beat into our head, an no im not condoning it, it was horrible, but we should never forget all the people who lost their lives during that time. Should someone face 10 years in prison for denying it happened? Hell no thats ridiculous, now someone trying to spark a nazi rebirth or somthing i could understand somthing being done about that, incarseration for 10 years? no i dont think thats quite the answear, all these countries, claim to be democratic or have a freedom of speech but the 1st time someone mentions jew or holocaust in a negative way these governments own lil gestapo comes out to arrest an detain! I dunno I dont have the answears, I just dont understand why only one group of people is consistently singled out an remembered, when all should be remembered an never forgotten.

 

[S O F I]

Isn't Austria a democracy? Hmm...

Aside from that, I believe that no punishment should be taken against this man. I believe exposing his facts as false and inaccurate is much better and effective than simply throwing him in a cell.

But should we protect people from being exposed to hateful and potentially incitive 'opinions'?

No.

 

[S O F I]

yes, i agree denying the holocaust being a crime!

i dont know exactly how to explain but i think what happened in WW2 was so incredible bad and unhuman that everyone who denies it should be punished.

i know its hard to draw the line between WW2 and other events in the past which were awful, too. but i think WW2 is outstanding.



yes i would. he/she deserves a different punishment though.



no, like i said before, WW2 is outstanding and i feel like this is the only event which deserves a punishment for just denying it.

It's OK, just because you're German, BeReal, it doesn't mean we think you're going to follow in the footsteps of most of your ancestors.

Due to where you're from, your judgement is clouded. You surely have to be foolish to think that the man deserves punishment because he's denying something that happened in history.

 

[The.Menace]

Hell no thats ridiculous, now someone trying to spark a nazi rebirth or somthing i could understand somthing being done about that, incarseration for 10 years?

That's exactly the accusation and he got 3 years today.

 

[Jokerman]

That's exactly the accusation and he got 3 years today.

I deny this happened.

:hungry:

 

[Jokerman]

The.Menace is one of the few here who's making sense.

Look, it's not a matter of whether you or I think he should be in jail for this.

It's a crime in Austria to minimise the atrocities of the Third Reich in a public forum. David Irving, with full understanding of the law, broke it numerous times. If the citizens of Austria were against this law, they would change it. Since they haven't, he has to pay the price of his stupidity.

I don't like some laws in my country or other countries. I might even believe they're wrong, but I'm not going to break them and expect not to be punished when caught.

What I would want them to do with him is whatever will cause him and his ideas to fade away. I don't know if imprisoning him will do that.

(By the way, nine European countries have laws against Holocaust denial.)

 

[Shahin]

The.Menace is one of the few here who's making sense.

Look, it's not a matter of whether you or I think he should be in jail for this.

It's a crime in Austria to minimise the atrocities of the Third Reich in a public forum. David Irving, with full understanding of the law, broke it numerous times. If the citizens of Austria were against this law, they would change it. Since they haven't, he has to pay the price of his stupidity.

I don't like some laws in my country or other countries. I might even believe they're wrong, but I'm not going to break them and expect not to be punished when caught.

What I would want them to do with him is whatever will cause him and his ideas to fade away. I don't know if imprisoning him will do that.

(By the way, nine European countries have laws against Holocaust denial.)

It's obvious to anyone who read the article that he broke the law, that's not what we're discussing here really. What we are doing is putting forth our opinions on whether the law is sensible or not. I do agree he should be punished for breaking the law, I just think the law is rediculous in a democratic country.

 

[Jokerman]

I just think the law is rediculous in a democratic country.

What's a democratic country? You know, democracy doesn't mean "liberalism." It doesn't mean "like the US" or "like Britain." Or a place with free speech. All it means is government by the people. If the people decide all Jews should be exterminated, that is democratic, too. In this case, the people of Austria decided that this should be a law, and so, it's democratic.

 

[Shahin]

What's a democratic country? You know, democracy doesn't mean "liberalism." It doesn't mean "like the US" or "like Britain." Or a place with free speech. All it means is government by the people. If the people decide all Jews should be exterminated, that is democratic, too. In this case, the people of Austria decided that this should be a law, and so, it's democratic.

The point I've been trying to make is that in order to have a fully democratic state you can't limit which ideologies or POV who are acceptable as that democracy will only leave the people with limited choices of who can represent them. If those choices have already been predetermined by past governments the future democracy will be limited. It's a slippery-slope.
I do know what a democracy is. Just because you don't agree with me there's really no need to insult my intelligence.

 

[Jokerman]

I do know what a democracy is. Just because you don't agree with me there's really no need to insult my intelligence.

No insult intended. I wasn't implying you didn't know what a democracy was. I was just suggesting you might not be considering what it wasn't.

 

[Morris]

Anyways, I'm just saying that atrocities were not just commited against Jews during WW2, alot of people suffered.

Ask anybody on the streets if they've heard of the Chiniese Holocaust during WW2, they'd probably look at you with a blank stare.

Japanese atrocities in Manchuria and the Rape of Nanking are discussed in most history courses these days. In fact, more historians are beginning to consider Japan's campaign in China as the real start of WWII (instead of the invasion of Poland in 1939).

So Japan is NO different then the US, or any other country that doesn't want you to know the bullshit.

In the United States, the fate of the Indians is discussed in high school courses. If you're wondering why American children are initially given sanitized versions of history, you must also wonder why there are parental controls on television.

For decades the Japanese have had a state endorsed expunging of their record, from Nanking to Pearl Harbor, while teaching children about the Americans' use of the atomic bombs. Comparing the US to that is inaccurate.

 

[The.Menace]

The point I've been trying to make is that in order to have a fully democratic state you can't limit which ideologies or POV who are acceptable as that democracy will only leave the people with limited choices of who can represent them. If those choices have already been predetermined by past governments the future democracy will be limited. It's a slippery-slope.

That's true, future democracy will be limited, they decided they don't want to go back to those old times, never again genocide should be possible.

These countries in Europe just try to do some right after they did so much wrong, you know, it's a form of acceptin guilt but they do it in a way no other country has. It's not only to have laws that should prevent the nazis from comin back, I also talk about billions of $ those country payed for people that suffered crimes in those times. I miss this attitude by anyone else - I haven't seen the US payin money to the indians for what happend there, I don't see them payin money to black people, I don't hear about the US carin about Vietnam.

Over all I think people that can't understand why countries in Europe have these laws just haven't understood what all this is about. It's different if there are one or two oceans and a couple of generations are between you and those places where that happend. People there are just much more informed, effected and scared - they still remember those times you know. I think if you understood the atrocity of all that, you also can understand why they chose to prevent those fools to come back.

And yeah Jokerman, I don't know why this dude was going back to the country, I doubt his intelligence - all these things he said back in 89 - he was just arrested now as he re entered the country.

Hm, I still don't understand how some can see denyin of the holocaust as an "opinion".

 

[Illuminattile]

Noun

opinion (plural: opinions)

1. A non-objective thought that a person has formed about a topic or issue.

A thought doesn't have to be logical or rational or based on good, reliable information. It's just something you think about an issue.

If you think that people shouldn't be punished for their opinions, then you have to include the opinions that make no sense and the opinions that might be offensive.

 

[The.Menace]

Well, I don't agree - my definition of an opinion is stated above.

The point I've been trying to make is that in order to have a fully democratic state you can't limit which ideologies or POV who are acceptable as that democracy will only leave the people with limited choices of who can represent them.

But what about the US startin wars cause they want to prevent communism? What about the CIA and his actions? Don't act as if the US would accept every mentality, they don't.

 

[Illuminattile]

Well, I don't agree - my definition of an opinion is stated above.

Your definition is wrong.

God exists, in some people's opinion. There's not evidence for it, but it's still an opinion.

 

[Sebastian]

It's OK, just because you're German, BeReal, it doesn't mean we think you're going to follow in the footsteps of most of your ancestors.

Due to where you're from, your judgement is clouded. You surely have to be foolish to think that the man deserves punishment because he's denying something that happened in history.

lol

since there is a law im obviously not the only one who thinks it deserves punishment. im pretty sure the guy said more than just "the holocaust didnt exist", so the denying itself didnt cause the punishment.

denying the holocaust is beyond stupidity and it is respectless towards the victims in a major way.

the law is about the protection of freedom of speech against the human despising ideology.

The point I've been trying to make is that in order to have a fully democratic state you can't limit which ideologies or POV who are acceptable as that democracy will only leave the people with limited choices of who can represent them. If those choices have already been predetermined by past governments the future democracy will be limited. It's a slippery-slope.
I do know what a democracy is. Just because you don't agree with me there's really no need to insult my intelligence.

you mean acceptable as in "if you have another opinion you will get punished"?

like jokerman said, if most people in the particular country think the law is right, it is a fully democratic country.

 

[Shahin]

you mean acceptable as in "if you have another opinion you will get punished"?

like jokerman said, if most people in the particular country think the law is right, it is a fully democratic country.

I stand by my statement. If you start legislating away ideologies, it's a slippery-slope, and what your offspring 100 years from now will be left with might not be democracy, they will be left with whichever ideologies you saw fitting at the time.

denying the holocaust is beyond stupidity and it is respectless towards the victims in a major way.

I agree, but I still think it's silly to limit this law to the holocaust.

Anyone knowexactly how this law works? Is it illegal to dispute the number of people killed in the holocaust too?

 

[Illuminattile]

Anyone knowexactly how this law works? Is it illegal to dispute the number of people killed in the holocaust too?

Well the actual number isn't known. Some estimates are as high as 26 million. I guess if you imply that the figure has been inflated by 'The Jews' then you might be guilty under these laws.

 

[The.Menace]

Your definition is wrong.
God exists, in some people's opinion. There's not evidence for it, but it's still an opinion.

true, good point - but is a obvious lie "an opinion" too? If so, how can I be punished for lyin in court? Wouldn't that be an opinion too?

. If you start legislating away ideologies, it's a slippery-slope, and what your offspring 100 years from now will be left with might not be democracy, they will be left with whichever ideologies you saw fitting at the time.

So - what about the US and the CIA "guidin" other countries to capitalism?

Anyone knowexactly how this law works? Is it illegal to dispute the number of people killed in the holocaust too?

No it's not like I said before, dude said far more then just deyin it, claimed that hitler was a great man and only protectin the jews, BS like that.