Pope's support for Islam

[Glockmatic]

No they never used their religious beliefs to attack the U.S. When did any Al-qaeda member ever say "I'm attacking you because my religious beliefs commands me to"?

No they haven't said that, but you seem to be missing the point of the quote. They wouldn't be killing themselves and others if they weren't promised 72 virgins or whatever they get for being a marty.

They used facts such as the dozens of U.S military bases "occupying the lands of Mohammed" to put it in Osama's own words.

There are U.S bases on "lands of Mohammed" by request of muslim country leaders like in Saudi Arabia.

The U.S support for israel and its supplies of weapons to israel being used on Muslims.

The camp david accord also gives billions of dollars to Egypt, but of course thats nothing!

Thats their motive behind 9/11. Thats what Al-qaeda repeated many times in videos and audio tapes. It had nothing to do with religion except that "al-qaeda asked for Gods 'help' to achieve their plans". Thats it. Can't believe how uninformed some of you are.

"This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah"

That doesn't just sound like "God help us in our plans"

 

[Kareem]

I agree with Teck's central point about most wars not being fought over religion, although there were a few idiosyncrasies involved (Rome brutally supressed Christianity and Judaism for hundreds of years, for example).

In fact, even the Crusades had economic motives and other motives outside of religion.

And before the Pope comments about Islam being spread violently, perhaps he should recall the 30 Years War, the Inquisition, the mass slaughter of the Huguenots in France, the Crusades, the Holy Roman Empire, Russian pogroms etc. And that's just listing the names of major wars/actions.

Holy shit! Morris I about fell outa my chair! Great post! :thumb:

 

[TecK NeeX]

that still has nothing to do with the quote i posted.

Ok than let me ask you this, What was the focus point of your quote and what was the point of posting it?

And as for the whole Mongol thing, Im not gonna go deeper into that. There are conflicting reports in any Empires conquest. Not one source will look similar to the other. And If you're happy with all religions playing a part in the fall of the Mongolian Empire than Great. That was the point I made when I said they "fell when they found Religion, not Islam

 

[TecK NeeX]

No they haven't said that, but you seem to be missing the point of the quote. They wouldn't be killing themselves and others if they weren't promised 72 virgins or whatever they get for being a marty.

The 72 virgins is an invention. Your ignorance is top notch

There are U.S bases on "lands of Mohammed" by request of muslim country leaders like in Saudi Arabia.

Money, bribery and promises talk.

The camp david accord also gives billions of dollars to Egypt, but of course thats nothing!

All because of the promise they'd make peace with Israel. Plus the aid To Egypt doesn't pale in comparison with Israels. Also, U.S aid to Egypt does not go into the building of illegal settlements for egyptian immigrants in another state. Aid to Egypt does not go into the confiscation of this states land and home demolition to allow for space. Aid to Egypt Does not go into Egyptian settlements surrounding every single city in this state.

75% of US military aid to Egypt(To Israel of course, but assuming this aid exists to Egypt) does not go into purchasing US-made military equipment, such as tanks, machine guns, bullets, helicopter gunships, and more.


All that is arguable, But in the eyes of most they are not. They are facts

"This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah"

That quote has self defence written all over it. And since your ignorance is blocking you from seeing the true context in that quote, Id be glad to clarify it. These "pagans" the verse speaks about threatened the destruction of Islam and everyone who followed it During the Time of the Prophet. After the death of many Muslims and not one fought back, This verse came down and God allowed self defence

1- Fight them as they fight against you - They were forced to fight so they did

2- fight them until there is no oppression. They did and oppression was removed

3- and Justice will prevail. And of course justice did.

"That doesn't just sound like "God help us in our plans

So your point is?

 

[jaimie.uk fan]

TecK NeeX The 72 virgins is an invention. Your ignorance is top notch

If its an invention why do followers of your religion Kill themselves and others to gain this invention ?

I saw a programme in the uk last night on female suicide bombers . There was one woman who failed in an attempt to blow up a hospital where she recieved life saving treatment from 3rd degree burns . Couldnt get my head round that . They interviewed her and she was talking about being a martyr and being queen of the 72 virgins or something - So this invention you speak of is obviously deep routed in many Islamic Followers minds .

 

[Sarr]

i think what the pope said was silly...but the extremists reaction is even more stupid...its like this (exhageration);

pope; Muslims are violent

muslim extremists; HEEEYY!!! HE SAID WE ARE VIOLENT!! WE'RE NOT!!!....now lets go burn that church and shoot that nun



man, i agree that the pope needs to look in his own backyard before he bags out any other faith...but the reaction that some of the islamic world is having, is just wrong

 

[Tru Principle]

If its an invention why do followers of your religion Kill themselves and others to gain this invention ?

.

You ignorant child,

Lets take religion X... and religion X has a holy book... and that holy book can be interpreted in many ways and/or quoted out of context... words twisted... words not fully understood etc... now anybody can say anything they want... they can say, the only way to get into Heaven is by dancing around naked in the rain and singing a Justin Timberlake song... it's all baloney... you say whatever you want, it does not mean it's the truth of this religion X..

So once again, my ignorant child.. One would think who ever created you must of given you a brain to use instead.. you jump to conclusions and assume with out burning a calorie in thought.

They are not followers of "my religion" they happen to claim to believe in the religion that I follow, but it doesn't mean we both believe in the same things... so get your ignorant derriere back to the 1st grade, because you seem to not be educated in reasoning and basic logic.


So... in conclusion... just because I know you are possibly mentally challenged I will sum up what I said.


They claim to be Muslims, doesn't mean they actually follow real Islam... get it? now, I hope you have a wonderful day my ignorant child.

 

[Devious]

No they never used their religious beliefs to attack the U.S. When did any Al-qaeda member ever say "I'm attacking you because my religious beliefs commands me to"? They used facts such as the dozens of U.S military bases "occupying the lands of Mohammed" to put it in Osama's own words. The U.S support for israel and its supplies of weapons to israel being used on Muslims. Thats their motive behind 9/11. Thats what Al-qaeda repeated many times in videos and audio tapes. It had nothing to do with religion except that "al-qaeda asked for Gods 'help' to achieve their plans". Thats it. Can't believe how uninformed some of you are.



How could you even say that when The conversion by a number of mongolian princes and leaders of hordes into Islam like Ghazan Khan, Fourth in descent from Halaku Khan, succeeded to the throne in 1295. He was also second descendant of Changez Khan to accept the religion of Islam along with his one hundred thousand followers.
Baraka Khan who was chief of the Golden Horde who was also in a close alliance with the Mamluk Sultan of Egypt. What about the western Khanates who adopted Islam? It's a fact that the infighting and weakness of tribal governance were one of the principal causes of their fall.

Also, Ilkhan Ghazan who ruled Persia from 1256 to 1353. who also converted to Islam in 1295 and actively supported the expansion of this religion in his empire which led to many internal feuds between them and other leaders which ultimately led to the fall of the mongolia empire. I'm not saying the whole fall was largely do to the acceptance of faith but it had very much to do with it.

lol you are calling us uninformed? i guess you haven't been paying attention to all this. you're going to sit there and tell me that they didn't use their religion to justify their attack? i never said that they attacked the US because they were commanded to, you're just putting words in my mouth. but they clearly think that their religious beliefs justify their attack. i can't believe you would even argue against that, have you even ever heard Bin Laden speak? i kow what the motives were, you didn't have to explain that to me. i was never disputing what the motives were, i'm stating that they feel justified in their attack because of their religious beliefs. and that is fact.

 

[jaimie.uk fan]

Tru Principle -You ignorant child,

Lets take religion X... and religion X has a holy book... and that holy book can be interpreted in many ways and/or quoted out of context... words twisted... words not fully understood etc... now anybody can say anything they want... they can say, the only way to get into Heaven is by dancing around naked in the rain and singing a Justin Timberlake song... it's all baloney... you say whatever you want, it does not mean it's the truth of this religion X..

So once again, my ignorant child.. One would think who ever created you must of given you a brain to use instead.. you jump to conclusions and assume with out burning a calorie in thought.

They are not followers of "my religion" they happen to claim to believe in the religion that I follow, but it doesn't mean we both believe in the same things... so get your ignorant back to the 1st grade, because you seem to not be educated in reasoning and basic logic.


So... in conclusion... just because I know you are possibly mentally challenged I will sum up what I said.


They claim to be Muslims, doesn't mean they actually follow real Islam... get it? now, I hope you have a wonderful day my ignorant child.

I love teenagers When your grown up son ...... Come back

Anyway enough of the petty insults - your calling me ignorant , what about these lunatics who are blowing people up in the name of Islam then ,You said there not realy following real Islam right ? Are they then not ignorant then for twisting what real Islam is .

Shouldnt you be attacking them ? Attacking them for distorting your wonderful religion .

The most i have done to be called ignorant then is not understand this obviously peaceful religion . Fuck me by the sound of it a lot of Muslims must be Ignorant then , cause they obviously dont understand there own religion they are following and in many places fighting amongst themselves .

You also say i have no logic but i see no logic in following a book thousands of years old that is so obviously flawed and the idea of blowing up people just to get a few chicks .

But then Hey maybe Islam can save my ignorant derriere

 

[Tru Principle]

I love teenagers When your grown up son ...... Come back

Anyway enough of the petty insults - your calling me ignorant , what about these lunatics who are blowing people up in the name of Islam then ,You said there not realy following real Islam right ? Are they then not ignorant then for twisting what real Islam is .

Shouldnt you be attacking them ? Attacking them for distorting your wonderful religion .

The most i have done to be called ignorant then is not understand this obviously peaceful religion . Fuck me by the sound of it a lot of Muslims must be Ignorant then , cause they obviously dont understand there own religion they are following and in many places fighting amongst themselves .

You also say i have no logic but i see no logic in following a book thousands of years old that is so obviously flawed and the idea of blowing up people just to get a few chicks .

But then Hey maybe Islam can save my ignorant derriere

ok .

 

[jaimie.uk fan]

ok .

Ok What ?? your not going to argue , tell me that muslims are great and insult me a little ? Shit does that means i gotta wait for Teck then ?? Im a little disapointed .

 

[Tru Principle]

Ok What ?? your not going to argue , tell me that muslims are great and insult me a little ? Shit does that means i gotta wait for Teck then ?? Im a little disapointed .

Um... wow

 

[Minardi]

OMG! the Pope quoted something about Islam being violent! Lets go kill people, and riot like hell to prove how wrong he is!!

I really dont understand those people.

 

[jaimie.uk fan]

OMG! the Pope quoted something about Islam being violent! Lets go kill people, and riot like hell to prove how wrong he is!!

I really dont understand those people.

Didnt you know - there not real Muslims apparently .

 

[Glockmatic]

Ok than let me ask you this, What was the focus point of your quote and what was the point of posting it?

Read it and you'll understand it

And as for the whole Mongol thing, Im not gonna go deeper into that. There are conflicting reports in any Empires conquest. Not one source will look similar to the other. And If you're happy with all religions playing a part in the fall of the Mongolian Empire than Great. That was the point I made when I said they "fell when they found Religion, not Islam

If the mongol empire fell when they found religion it would've fell when they conquered tibet. You keep saying that islam was the one religion that stopped the mongols when its far from the truth.

The 72 virgins is an invention. Your ignorance is top notch

a shitload of people are believing in that invention

Money, bribery and promises talk.

They asked for them to be there for security, they requested US presence when Iraq invaded Kuwait.

All because of the promise they'd make peace with Israel.

ya, and?

75% of US military aid to Egypt(To Israel of course, but assuming this aid exists to Egypt) does not go into purchasing US-made military equipment, such as tanks, machine guns, bullets, helicopter gunships, and more.

1.3 billion a year goes to Egyptian military aid, and they have bought US tanks

That quote has self defence written all over it. And since your ignorance is blocking you from seeing the true context in that quote, Id be glad to clarify it. These "pagans" the verse speaks about threatened the destruction of Islam and everyone who followed it During the Time of the Prophet. After the death of many Muslims and not one fought back, This verse came down and God allowed self defence

Attacking civilians is not self defense.

 

[TecK NeeX]

These arguments are not going nowhere. I will say this though. Everything these 'Extremists' do is justified in Islam except for teh obvious targeting of civilians. Had they not been civilian targets they'd be heroes in my eyes. But I will never call them as such nor will i ever call them Muslim as long as they continue with the murder of unarmed civilians while ignoring the real killers.

 

[TecK NeeX]

Read it and you'll understand it

Looks like you dont understand it yourself. I do and the point you were trying make with it was irrelevant.

If the mongol empire fell when they found religion it would've fell when they conquered tibet. You keep saying that islam was the one religion that stopped the mongols when its far from the truth.

If you think the conversion of mongols to buddhism, christianity and other religions were as wide and successful in numbers and high rankings as they're conversion to Islam than you're lying to yourself and history. It's like you're in denial. It's like as if its offensive to you that most of them converted to this Faith.

a shitload of people are believing in that invention

A shit load of people believe in many things, doesnt make it true. Dont bring it up when its not fact.

They asked for them to be there for security, they requested US presence when Iraq invaded Kuwait.

Which is why they targeted both the U.S and these puppets leaders in the royal family.

ya, and?

Becasue They weren't gettin shit from the U.S before they made peace with Israel? What did I say before, Money talks?

1.3 billion a year goes to Egyptian military aid, and they have bought US tanks

U.S military aid to Egypt does not go into the building of illegal settlements for egyptian immigrants in another state. Aid to Egypt does not go into the confiscation of this states land and home demolition to allow for space. Aid to Egypt Does not go into Egyptian settlements surrounding every single city in this state. When egyptians use this money to occupy, When egypt does all this to another state I'D accuse egypt with the same crimes as israel and i would fight against them .

Attacking civilians is not self defense.

No shit? The quote does though. Attacking civilians or not the Quote doesnt change nor does the meaning of it will. You thought you were smart by posting it only to find out it would back fire on you.

 

[jaimie.uk fan]

TecK NeeX These arguments are not going nowhere. I will say this though. Everything these 'Extremists' do is justified in Islam except for teh obvious targeting of civilians. Had they not been civilian targets they'd be heroes in my eyes. But I will never call them as such nor will i ever call them Muslim as long as they continue with the murder of unarmed civilians while ignoring the real killers.

I have waiting for you to say something like this for a long time :thumb:

 

[Glockmatic]

Looks like you dont understand it yourself. I do and the point you were trying make with it was irrelevant.

Richard Dawkins states that people use religion to give them unshakeable confidence in what they do is right. Suicide bombers kill themselves thinking they'll be awarded. Hard to understand?

If you think the conversion of mongols to buddhism, christianity and other religions were as wide and successful in numbers and high rankings as they're conversion to Islam than you're lying to yourself and history. It's like you're in denial. It's like as if its offensive to you that most of them converted to this Faith.

I'm not lying to myself or history, you're the one who is twisting history. I'm not offended by people converting to Islam, its the amount of credit given to islam for the fall of the mongol empire and overexaggerations of facts. Remember saying hundreds of millions of mongol descendants in the middle east and central asia?

Becasue They weren't gettin shit from the U.S before they made peace with Israel? What did I say before, Money talks?

So they gave money to a country that wanted peace...and? If other countries who wanted the destruction of israel wanted help as well they would also make peace with israel. Jordan did the same thing as Egypt, now they're flourishing.

U.S military aid to Egypt does not go into the building of illegal settlements for egyptian immigrants in another state. Aid to Egypt does not go into the confiscation of this states land and home demolition to allow for space. Aid to Egypt Does not go into Egyptian settlements surrounding every single city in this state. When egyptians use this money to occupy, When egypt does all this to another state I'D accuse egypt with the same crimes as israel and i would fight against them .

Aid goes to the country, they decide how to use the money.

No shit? The quote does though. Attacking civilians or not the Quote doesnt change nor does the meaning of it will. You thought you were smart by posting it only to find out it would back fire on you.

Al-Qaeda attacked civilians and you defend them by saying they're defending themselves. Nice to see you showed your true colours

edit: btw the quote i posted that Teck is saying is about self defense was an excerpt from a speech by Osama Bin Ladin

 

[TecK NeeX]

Richard Dawkins states that people use religion to give them unshakeable confidence in what they do is right. Suicide bombers kill themselves thinking they'll be awarded. Hard to understand?

But their religion does not give them 'Unshakeable confidence" in what they do is right. Their religion does not give them to right to kill unarmed civilians. He's full of shit and that quote did not fit with this discussion.

I'm not lying to myself or history, you're the one who is twisting history. I'm not offended by people converting to Islam, its the amount of credit given to islam for the fall of the mongol empire and overexaggerations of facts. Remember saying hundreds of millions of mongol descendants in the middle east and central asia?

Yes you are, you're twisting shit yourself no different than before when you said most Mongols adopted Buddhism and brought it back to Mongolia when obviously thats a historical lie. I corrected you and you had no reply in return. The Majority of mongols converted to Islam and stayed in that region, The few that didnt returned home, thats a fact, One doesnt need to look further than the Country of mongolia itself. It's little population and religion.

Aid goes to the country, they decide how to use the money.

And the US support of how they're using it is where the animosity comes from.

Al-Qaeda attacked civilians and you defend them by saying they're defending themselves. Nice to see you showed your true colours

I never defended them, You're puting shit in my mouth, I merely gave you their motives behind their attacks. I agree with their motives yet I dont agree with who they target. God damn! how many more times do I have to say that to get it through your brain?

btw the quote i posted that Teck is saying is about self defense was an excerpt from a speech by Osama Bin Ladin

And he's right to say it, Where he went wrong is he targets civilians which goes against the same verse he quoted. Can we blame religion for that? No blame the persons who dont listen to it. I'd say nice to see you showing your true colors right back but you've always shwon them.