Patriot Act

[Tru Principle]

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[PuffnScruff]

ok...and..you didnt see this coming?

 

[AmerikazMost]

Always opposed it, and still do.

 

[Tru Principle]

ok...and..you didnt see this coming?

Huh

 

[PuffnScruff]

its not like this anything that should shock anyone. it was renewed a few months ago with an overwhelming majority vote and i should be no surprise that it would this time.

AM is only opposed to it because the act came from the bush adminstration

 

[S O F I]

Why do you oppose it, besides the obvious answers such as "It invades my privacy"?

 

[PuffnScruff]

i always find it funny when people use that " it invades my privacy" excuse. i mean really? can they prove their privacy has been invaded? are they doing something illegal that they dont want to get caught up for? are the feds really going invade the privacy of 300million plus people in this country? not likely

 

[AmerikazMost]

AM is only opposed to it because the act came from the bush adminstration

Why do you oppose it, besides the obvious answers such as "It invades my privacy"?

It has little to do with privacy and much to do with political ideals. I myself am both a Republican (not in the modern American partisan sense, but in the structure of government sense) and a Liberal. I believe that the center of power should be focused upon the electorate (i.e. Congress), and I believe in government regulation of domestic programs and the security of civil liberties. Thus, I have to be opposed to the act.

But hey, if you think that an unchecked, free-acting executive and the insecurity of individual liberties is a good thing, then by all means support it :thumb:

 

[S O F I]

^But, you didn't state exactly why you oppose it. How does it affect you and how is it detrimental to the country?

As for individual liberties, I believe that safety is priority over certain individual liberties, such as the ones that have to do with privacy.

 

[AmerikazMost]

^But, you didn't state exactly why you oppose it. How does it affect you and how is it detrimental to the country?

As for individual liberties, I believe that safety is priority over certain individual liberties, such as the ones that have to do with privacy.

It affects me because I am a citizen of the United States, and taking pride in that, the operation and actions of the government concern me. Thus, constitutional violations make me wary.

Many say that there would be no freedom without protection, but is a life without freedom worth protecting? Though it does violate privacy rights, I'm more concerned with the lack of responsibility that the exeutive branch faces for its actions under the act.

Y'all may say that the first sentence of that last paragraph is exagerrating, but to me it's not, because of my political ideals, which is what it all comes back to. Any violation is civil liberty, particular those outlined in the Constitution, is too much.


Edit: I had an example from a source that I read over a year ago, but cannot find it now. Because I have a test to study for, I'll get more detailed later.

 

[S. Fourteen]

Oh good. I can sleep well now.

 

[XIAN]

^^HA!!

This thing is not good because even though they may not spy on all of us, they can spy on some of us, and do much more, legally, and not by the decision of a jury.

The "Patriot" Act, in the long run, isolates the government from the people, when they should be the same. Basically they are drawing a line that spearates the two even further. Because if they can alter the Constitution for this, are they going to alter it again? If they take away even a little bit of our freedom today, are they gonna take more next year, or in 15 years? Maybe take away Free Speech? Protection from Cruel and Unusual Punishment?

It may appear that this law is only intended for those who threaten the country, but how long until that is not a crime anymore? Until the old guys on Capital Hill become so paranoid that they stop seeing themselves as part of "the people" (as the fore-fathers intended) and start seeing themselves as "the rule." Then we will be forced to overthrow them.

Maybe The Patriot Act really doesn't protect us, but rather them?

Does anyone know the reason for 9/11?
~peace~

 

[H.B.]

It affects me because I am a citizen of the United States, and taking pride in that, the operation and actions of the government concern me. Thus, constitutional violations make me wary.

I agree with this statement, and your other one concerning unchecked executive auhtority. There is a reason why the congress and the senate were created, to create checks and balance to make sure the executive branch did not have too much power.

The patriot act completey goes against this idea. Why are people willinng to sacrifice out democracy for "increased security". Do you people have numbers? do you have proof that the patriot truly hass made us safer. (don't say "we haven't been attacked since 9/11 because there have been longer periods without a terrorist attack). Or are you just believing the hypothetical situations created by the patriot act, and the theoretical outcome of such a bill.

Seriously, during the Cold War, when nuclear warheads were pointed at us and the possiblity of compelte anarchy and despair was almost a reality, such a proposition was never even conceived. There are other way to go about making out country safer other than such infrigements of the rights of the individual.

you, those who support the patriot act, are any of you of middle eastern decent? if yes, please exaplian why you support it.

Do you want this coutry to have prisons such as guantanamo bay or abu ghraib? institutions with your fellow american citizens being held without reason, and under false pretences in the name of "security and liberty".

 

[S O F I]

Why are people willinng to sacrifice out democracy for "increased security".

Democracy infers is that people give their consent to those in charge. It does not infer or promise individual liberties.

By the way, your statement infers this:

You'd rather make sure that nobody sees you jacking off, than to make sure nobody invades your house and attempts to kill you.

Do you people have numbers? do you have proof that the patriot truly hass made us safer. (don't say "we haven't been attacked since 9/11 because there have been longer periods without a terrorist attack). Or are you just believing the hypothetical situations created by the patriot act, and the theoretical outcome of such a bill.

You cannot make such an argument.

Seriously, during the Cold War, when nuclear warheads were pointed at us and the possiblity of compelte anarchy and despair was almost a reality, such a proposition was never even conceived. There are other way to go about making out country safer other than such infrigements of the rights of the individual.

Well, I agree that the better way to go about this is to not give other countries a reason for attack. However, that's a bit ideal in America's current situation.

As for AmerikazMost, you still haven't given me a clear reason for your disagreement with the Patriot Act. I understand that the executive branch gets too much power and it goes against what America was founded on, but, really, how does that have a negative effect on you currently? The only way I see it is that with the executive branch having more power than it should, it can carry out and enforce ridicoulous laws in the future?

 

[H.B.]

Democracy infers is that people give their consent to those in charge. It does not infer or promise individual liberties.

By the way, your statement infers this:

You'd rather make sure that nobody sees you jacking off, than to make sure nobody invades your house and attempts to kill you.



You cannot make such an argument.

It is the principle of the matter. If the government wants to invade my privacy, it should have a good reason, and proof that its decisions to do so are necessary. Under the patriot act, these reasons are not needed. It is almost like Saddam Iraq, the government could do whatever it wanted, and the people couldn't do anything about it.

Also, why can't i make such an argument? just curious.

 

[PuffnScruff]

Do you people have numbers? do you have proof that the patriot truly hass made us safer. (don't say "we haven't been attacked since 9/11 because there have been longer periods without a terrorist attack). Or are you just believing the hypothetical situations created by the patriot act, and the theoretical outcome of such a bill.
".

i dont think any numbers exist, but one could say that patriot act is responsible for catching the guy who was plotting to blow up the brooklyn bridge.

"The patriot act simply allows us to take the tools that law enforcement had for years, to go after the mob, organized crime, and drug dealers, and use them against terrorist" Barbara Comstock former Director of Public Affairs, Department of Justice in the documentary Celsius 41.11

 

[The.Menace]

i always find it funny when people use that " it invades my privacy" excuse. i mean really? can they prove their privacy has been invaded? are they doing something illegal that they dont want to get caught up for? are the feds really going invade the privacy of 300million plus people in this country? not likely

If they don't plan 2 use the patriot act, if they don't plan 2 invade the privacy of the people, why do we need it then?

It has little to do with privacy and much to do with political ideals.

I agree. Just because they don't invade the privacy of all people it but of some it doesn't mean it's ok. This is about principles and no matter who wants to take my rights away, I'm against it.

 

[PuffnScruff]

If they don't plan 2 use the patriot act, if they don't plan 2 invade the privacy of the people, why do we need it then?



I agree. Just because they don't invade the privacy of all people it but of some it doesn't mean it's ok. This is about principles and no matter who wants to take my rights away, I'm against it.

it seems to me that your looking at it like they want to be looking into the lives of ordinary law obiding citizens. if thats true, and im guessing at that, thats just not the case. they want to spy on people that are not law obiding citizens that may be trying, planning, or will do harm to innocent people.

9/11 could have been very easly prevented if actions would have been taken place in the clinton adminstration and there were a few things bush could have done as well. but really more could have been done during the clinton years, but thats getting off topic. i guess the point im trying to make is that the lesson of 911 is that we have to prevent attacks and we just cant sit around and wait for it to happen. the patriot act can help in preventing attacks, and there have been some proof of that over the past couple of years.

many experts have said the partiot act was a long time coming and many people have been trying to get something like it passed for years, but the acts of 911 just made woke up everyone in washington as to why we need it.

but like that quote i posted said, this really isnt anything new. police and feds were using these typs of tactics for years on mob criminals and drug dealers. the clinton adminstration was spying on baltimore housing projects. the patriot act just allows the govt to do it at broader international scale.

 

[DrugBa11ad]

Same damn shit they did with COINTELPRO in the 60's and 70's. Fuck that shit.

I could really care less about the Patriot Act, thier gonna do it regardless, it ain't like its a secret.

They do worse.

Let them spy on us, I'll openly show my militancy towards an oppressive government that shields its horrendous nature with a facade of freedom and equality.

 

[S O F I]

Same damn shit they did with COINTELPRO in the 60's and 70's. Fuck that shit.

I could really care less about the Patriot Act, thier gonna do it regardless, it ain't like its a secret.

They do worse.

Let them spy on us, I'll openly show my militancy towards an oppressive government that shields its horrendous nature with a facade of freedom and equality.

COINTELPRO dealt with the Weathermen and the Black Panthers. This is on a bigger scale, and its purpose is not to shut down rebellious citizens. So, the only connection I see is "illegal" wiretapping.