Pakistan wants Facebook CEO Zuckerberg dead

[S O F I]

The general cause some members here want to "achieve" by using such strong language is get muslims to say "Yes, Pakistan is being stupid and I'm ashamed this country represents my religion in this way". Their outrage should be even larger than mine because Islam IS being misrepresented so much.

these methods.

Your patronizing bit at the end functions solely off the assumption that I'm always like this. Which I'm not. So well done at that.

You just choose to be about things you care about. Which, unsurprisingly, is the most important topic in Holland right now, aside from the economy? There is a HUGE correlation between the heightening anti-Islamic sentiment in your home country and your posts here. Now put that in your pipe and smoke it lol.

 

[S O F I]

I guess Netherlands would be more appropriate. You explained the distinction once.

 

[Duke]

these methods.



You just choose to be about things you care about. Which, unsurprisingly, is the most important topic in Holland right now, aside from the economy? There is a HUGE correlation between the heightening anti-Islamic sentiment in your home country and your posts here. Now put that in your pipe and smoke it lol.

I choose to talk about things I care about?

How exactly is that weird? You deal with a lot of topics you don't give a shit about?


It's also interesting you seem to know better than me what the most important "topic" is in the Netherlands. This problems has been evident for decades, not just the last year when I've been making such posts.

The sentiment over here is both anti-Islamic by ignorant people (rural areas, very christian areas) and there's the correct resentment over certain members of predominantly muslim immigrant groups that create a lot of problems, most notably in the bigger cities.

The latter is what I keep addressing. If that makes me "anti-Islamic" it's quite funny, because that makes a whole chunk of the Moroccans in Amsterdam anti-Islamic. Wait what? Yeah, you remember that PVV party of Geert Wilders? You know, the "extreme right" guys? The guy that so vehemently defended the Muhammad cartoons?

One of A'dam's biggest problem areas is "The Baarsjes". Mostly Moroccans living there. Guess what 70% of the Marocs voted?

Wilders. Because they are so fucking fed up with certain people from their own background, culture and religion, giving the rest a horrible reputation, that they actually look past the image of Wilders and think he can bring some proper changes because they have lost all faith in the "ruling elite" of Dutch politics, who for years have ducked the growing culture-clash problem and haven't dealt with it.

These are second or third generation immigrants living in the Netherlands, mostly muslim, in total problem areas and they actually voted for the party you'd least likely expect them too. Now what does that tell you?

That's only one example. I've seen enough examples to know that the majority of the muslims in the Netherlands are decent people that have long since abandoned (or even never had) any strict fundamentalist ideals they might have held and traded it in for a healthy dose of nuance. Especially the normal people from the problem areas. They hate their muslim-brother-hooligans much more than the bald white guy from fuck-all village.

I could explain this in much further detail, but I doubt it will have much use since you seem to have decided you know my country better than myself.

 

[Jokerman]

If we don't honor these laws because "we're atheist now" how would you justify making the laws in the first place?

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[Duke]

And since a lot of the Bible has made its way into our laws

You mean that a lot of laws have made their way into the Bible. :thumb:

Or did you really think religion was the first to say "stealing and murdering is wrong"?

Social evolution 1 on 1. Be good to members of your own tribe.

 

[THEV1LL4N]

too many lengthy posts. preach would be proud.

 

[SiGh]

If anything typical Muslim behaviour is blasphemous in its own right. And again, you did nothing to say "hey, us Muslims can be rational people", you did the typical Muslims thing and ignored any constructive conversation and generalised every word in this thread is Islamaphobia, instead of using any rationality.

Out of curiousity, where did you get the "typical" from?

 

[Duke]

Out of curiousity, where did you get the "typical" from?

The type that is talked about. The type that thinks certain things or responds in a certain way as specified earlier in the topic.

 

[SiGh]

The type that is talked about. The type that thinks certain things or responds in a certain way as specified earlier in the topic.

Okay. I didn't know if Gotti meant the members in the thread, or the Muslims that are shown on TV (The extremists).

 

[dilla]

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What's that? A book? Isn't that what caused the problems in the first place? Wait... no, first and foremost is the stupidity of some humans, but second is the book they follow blindly and literally. How do people learn moral values? Books? School? Parents? Each of those three ways can vary to an infinitesimally small extent and still cause the same problems religion causes today.

Books? You show "Morality for Dummies." Won't there then be a "Morality Demystified?" "Morality Cliffnotes" "Morality Sparknotes?" Each say the same thing in different words, yet people will fight over the proper way to say it all.

Schools? Then schools become exclusive "fraternities" or societies and with the number of schools in the world, each teaching "morality" on a different level (think private schools and then public schools and the methods used to teach it) we're, again, looking at different schools of thought. Which is what religion is.

 

[Synful*Luv]

I have a question:

If your are only good because you want a reward or fear a punishment... ultimately is that kind of "good" behavior valuable?

If your significant other is only nice to you when they want sex or fear that sex will be cut off.. is that a "good" boyfriend or girlfriend?

If your kid/little brother or sister is only well behaved when they are scared they may be grounded or when they want new toys.. are they "good" kids?

I'm not being sarcastic or trying to insult any viewpoint here.. I'm just asking what others think.

 

[dilla]

I have a question:

If your are only good because you want a reward or fear a punishment... ultimately is that kind of "good" behavior valuable?

If your significant other is only nice to you when they want sex or fear that sex will be cut off.. is that a "good" boyfriend or girlfriend?

If your kid/little brother or sister is only well behaved when they are scared they may be grounded or when they want new toys.. are they "good" kids?

I'm not being sarcastic or trying to insult any viewpoint here.. I'm just asking what others think.

No, I think the same way you do. Which is why I feel with or without religion, there will still be shit in the world. My Vedantic study school taught me what you mentioned above (giving, loving, etc. and expecting something in return) is not "true" and will get you no where. You will end up unhappy in the end, regardless.

This is what keeps what little faith I have in religion, myself, and the rest of humanity, these wise words I learned at a young age. There are people out there completely lost in life. Not that I am an "enlightened one" know-it-all, but I feel I'm heading in, somewhat, the right direction.

Again, not everyone needs what I did. Some figure it out on your own. Great. I mentioned earlier, I would be a lot more lost in life if I didn't have wise words to help keep me grounded. It works for me and I use it.

 

[dilla]

73rd post today. We really need to come together like this more often.

 

[Sebastian]

So why is not OK for me to criticize your sexual preference if you didn't pick it? Why should the freedom to choose have anything to do with it? It's the playground rule. Don't make fun of that retarded kid because he's actually retarded. I don't care if he was born retarded or just became stupid overnight, I can still make fun of him. The only difference is how me making fun of that retarded kid is perceived in society. Suddenly it's not cool to make fun of the retarded kid. But I'm making fun of his retarded nature, not because he's ACTING retarded. Nevertheless, I'm not the cool bully, anymore. Everybody is sympathetic to the retarded kid and I'm the bad guy for being funny.

Is that the difference?

But see, that's not the point Keco is making. The point is, some people put religion as #1 as far as social identity goes. Therefore, when their religion is attacked, they feel that the CORE OF WHO THEY ARE is attacked. That's what a lot of religion bashers refuse to acknowledge. They understand it but don't want to acknowledge it. The failure to acknowledge leads to conflict. If there is one thing in the world for you as a person that will really rile you and cause you to inflict physical pain on someone even if that someone is a nice person, try to think of that every time you insult someone's religion. I'm not saying you shouldn't criticize their religion, but understand the consequences of insulting someone's CORE of who they are.

Your point is, that these people are getting hurt because "we" attack the core of who they are.

First of all you are right, generally speaking, you shouldnt do or say something if it offends or hurts somebody else. But there are exceptions to this rule.

Its not okay for you to bully the retarded kid because it hurts if someone is making fun of you (well, sometimes it does). So you should stay away from it. Same goes for someone who is gay, for example. These people (the retarded kid and gay guy) are doing nothing wrong, whatsoever.

Now if you choose to do or believe in something and somebody else can bring up a valid argument for criticism, then sure as hell its okay voice this criticsm somewhere. Or the other way around: The believer has no point in saying "its offensive, dont say that" because he is the one who is actually doing something wrong.

 

[keco52]

^to you and jokerman I was never saying they should be immune from being offended. I just wanted you to admit (which you, duke, jokerman and synful thanked your post) that "Fuck your God" is offensive. I believe...just as offensive as the word n*gger. You all admitted that saying it might offend some ppl..correct? And you just don't care why? bc it's different from what you believe? bc they're beneath you for having those beliefs?

You can criticize and question their beliefs but to say "Kill your God" bc it's different from what you believe is just as ignorant and intolerant as n*gger.

 

[Prize Gotti]

Dilla, you keep making out you need religion to have morals. You don't need religion, you need intelligence. I don't need a book to tell me what is right and wrong, I know these things for myself. Because as I said to you earlier, holy books are written by humans, not gods, so your moral values you are learning from there are opinions, not facts. Just because it says in the bible what is right and wrong, doesn't necessarily mean it is correct. If you are smart enough, you can work out what is right and what is wrong on your own. Again, think for yourself, don't rely on other peoples opinions on how you should live your life.

 

[Casey]

Exactly Gotti. I didn't read any religious book until I was a teenager and when I did, I was surprised at how crap and pointless they were. Anyone could write these books and make up those stories in order to illustrate a point.

Also, the examples aren't even that great. Let's look at the good samaritan. I suppose, the moral of that story is supposed to be, help someone in need because it's the right thing to do. But it's also completely racist - it implies that all the samaritans were evil, prejudiced assholes, and then ONE of them turned out to be a decent chap. I mean, think about it - what if the name of the parable was "the good jew", or "the good black guy" - everyone would automatically realize how racist that sounded.

 

[Synful*Luv]

^to you and jokerman I was never saying they should be immune from being offended. I just wanted you to admit (which you, duke, jokerman and synful thanked your post) that "Fuck your God" is offensive. I believe...just as offensive as the word n*gger. You all admitted that saying it might offend some ppl..correct? And you just don't care why? bc it's different from what you believe? bc they're beneath you for having those beliefs?

You can criticize and question their beliefs but to say "Kill your God" bc it's different from what you believe is just as ignorant and intolerant as n*gger.

I don't know what you're talking about. I'm pretty sure I've never said anything.. here or in real life for that matter.. that was meant to insult someone because of their beliefs. I'm just not that person. I don't care WHAT someone believes because i'm one of those rare individuals who doesn't think that everyone needs to think, dress, speak, live, love, drive, etc, etc, etc just like I do. Just because religion isn't for me doesn't mean that I don't understand that some people need religion. There are many people out there,unfortunately, who wouldn't be able to function if they didn't think there was some higher power or an afterlife. I know this for a fact because I've talked about it with quite a few people before.

The only time I have a problem with religion is when it infringes on my or the rights of another human. When people won't let two people who are in love get married because their "god" says it's wrong that those two people don't fit their description of what two people in love should look like. Or when someone is forced to say "in god we trust" at a public event. Or missions (I fucking hate missions) that go to other countries and pretend to help people but ONLY if those people will take on a new name, new language, new religion and new identity. That pisses me off. I think inside someone's own life.. they should be able to do and believe in whatever they want. But when those beliefs cross into a public sector.. that's when I have a problem with that. Other than that.. I don't care what people do, certainly not enough to go around trying to insult them. For what purpose does that serve?

And I think you may have a few things confused about atheism. Atheism is NOT a religion or cult for one. (Not just to you Kelly, but in general to the thread). One of the great things about the group of people who are atheists is that everyone is different, everyone thinks something different, everyone has different beliefs and at the end of the day.. that's what makes it great. Atheists can barely agree on joining or creating support groups and the likes because so many dislike the idea of being a group of people following behind someone telling them what to do. At least that's been my experience, even with the irreligious/non-theist/(to a lesser extent) humanist groups. Yeah, you have your "extremists" that want to go around and change people. But since they aren't being told to do this by anyone but themselves.. at the end of the day you just have someone who may be considered an asshole. LMAO. But seriously.

There would be NO POINT in trying to "convert" someone to atheism for a couple of reasons.
1. It's something someone figures out on their own, you can't convince someone that there isn't a god or that religion is pointless, they either think this or they don't
3. There isn't a "leader" for atheists, it's a group of individuals who enjoy thinking for themselves, separately. You throw someone who is used to following someone or a set of rules into that sort of environment and you'll end up with a lost person who probably does something awful pretty soon.

I thanked Sebastian's post because I understood the point he was trying to make and I agreed with it. I wasn't agreeing that it's not offensive to say "F*uck whatever," certainly it is. However, I still agree with the original post that said "race and sexual orientation just are" while religion and political views are something that you choose.

 

[Synful*Luv]

No, I think the same way you do. Which is why I feel with or without religion, there will still be shit in the world. My Vedantic study school taught me what you mentioned above (giving, loving, etc. and expecting something in return) is not "true" and will get you no where. You will end up unhappy in the end, regardless.

This is what keeps what little faith I have in religion, myself, and the rest of humanity, these wise words I learned at a young age. There are people out there completely lost in life. Not that I am an "enlightened one" know-it-all, but I feel I'm heading in, somewhat, the right direction.

Again, not everyone needs what I did. Some figure it out on your own. Great. I mentioned earlier, I would be a lot more lost in life if I didn't have wise words to help keep me grounded. It works for me and I use it.

I understand what you're saying. And I think there are lots of people who are the same way. But I don't think that's what I (or Duke from his posts, I may be wrong) am referring to. It's the extremists. The ones who want their religion to be law or who infringe on the rights of others due to their religious beliefs.

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree on the fact that each individual needs to be happy and satisfied with their own lives and how they live it. And however they get to that point.. doesn't matter. As long as they get there without causing chaos for other people trying to get to that same exact point in life.

 

[keco52]

Yeah, well, if you want to see it this way, religion might be part of someones social identity. However, i cant see any reason why you shouldnt attack a part of someones social identity (which is his/her religion in this example). You didnt give an explanation to this either. You just said you dont do it.

Its offensive to them. So what? Im definitely not walking around telling everybody i dont agree with them on some issue. But something being offensive is not really the question to ask here. So, yeah, both of you are not making any point. At all. ( See that, Illmatic? I shit on their views even though they are not new members...but because they make no sense).

This is the post I was referring to. What exactly in this post do you agree with? Bc I feel that it contradicts the other other post you thanked in which Seb said religion is different from race in regards to social identity. (In the one above he says it might be part of someones social identity) or do you guys just go through and thank all the ppl who don't believe in god bc that's really what it seems like.