Hamza Yusuf -Pennypacker

[not really ken]

Pennypacker, what issues have you against hamzau yusuf. I want talk about it. If there's something that I should know then it's your duty to tell me.

 

[Jurhum]

Hamza Yusuf does everything in his power to spread the word of Islam. Maybe he's not so perfect, but he deserve his respect. I think, correct me of I am wrong, that Pennypacker is argueing Hamza's being called a Seikh, or Alam. I am not sure.

 

[H.E. Pennypacker]

I do have a problem with Hamza Yusuf being called anything other than a student. I don't appreciate someone calling a student something that he's not. He may have taken tons of classes and know a lot, but he's in no position to issue fatawa and be called a scholar.

There used to be a time when it would take a lot more than the number of classes and schools you went to, to become a scholar. Its a shame if someone like Hamza is being called a scholar now.

Another thing is that Hamza Yusuf is popular amongst Sufees and people that don't care. I do have several problems with him. Mainly, its pretty much because he's a Sufee, but there's also another reason. I can't state that reason here in the public.

Lets see. I don't think there's much else.

PS: ken, I know you say you're a Sunee and stuff like that, but listen to this. Do you realize how many people call themselves Sunees nowadays? The Salafees, the Sufees, some crazy people out there, and a number of other people. When you say "I am a Sunee" it no longer points out a single group of people. In other words, there's too many people calling themselves by this name.

I am not a Salafee. I don't know why because I pretty much agree with them on everything. I am not a Sufee for a number of reasons. Don't get me wrong. I have a lot of love for some people that Sufees are quite fond of.

You know what, if you want to know someone who I really look up to, think of Ibn Taymiyyah. A lot love for him, and I'd die for him. He pretty much summs up all my beliefs. From core beliefs to ever day actions, its gotta be him. He's not 100% qualified to have his own school of thought, but I am with him. If there was an Ibn Taymiyyah fan club, I'd join it. So, if you want to know how I feel about Sufees, check out what he's written. There are so many books, I should really point out one. I believe he's written about 360 books or something.

I have to cut this post off because you may not be able to focus on all these words in one post.

 

[not really ken]

I sense a lot of jealousy pennypacker. Why cannot hamza Yusuf be called a scholar, is it because he is white? is it because he is American? Is it because he is a revert?
Hamza yusuf has been given the authority of issuing fatwas and is a scholar through the presentation of the certificate from his teachers in various arab countries. the sheikhs that hamza Yusuf has studied and learned from for 20 odd years are considered the best in the world. So if he has put in work and been given authority that he has today why can you not accept that. It seems as if his teachers have accepted that he is ready for the title of a scholar.
exactly why is it a shame? YOu admit he is very knowledgable, but yet you still begrudge him the scholarly title which has been given to him by a collection of other scholars who are amongst the best in the world.
I know your an arab and the arabs that I myself have encountered seem to think that i am not a real muslim because I am not an arab.
Well just like Allah has stated in the Quran that he gives death to the living and then breings the dead back to life. The 'real' muslims seem to wanna 'die' by not following the sunnah so Allah has bought to life the dead hearts of the non-muslims.

Lol, so you have read books by Ibn Tayimmiya and subscribe to that school of thought yet you don't consider yourself a salafee.
and what do you mean by "hamza yusuf is popular amongst sufees and people that don't care .? have you ever even listened to hamza yusuf?

Yes, I do realise that people are calling themselves sunnis these days. But do you realise what a sunni is?
well do you realise exactly what a sunni is in traditional islam. its a person who follow one of the four imams. have you ever thought of learning what a sunni is?
you read biased and misconstrued literature of ibn taymiyya and make jusdgements agasint sufees. yet i bet you dont even understand what a sufi is.

i've still not really had a clear answer from you, apart from saying that he isn't allowed to be a scholar, wrell who are you to decide that when arab scholars have given him the permission. and what's the other thing you can't mention, is it something to do with firefighters of sept 11?

 

[H.E. Pennypacker]

I sense a lot of jealousy pennypacker. Why cannot hamza Yusuf be called a scholar, is it because he is white? is it because he is American? Is it because he is a revert?

I am not jealous because I'll freely admit that I know only a fraction of what he knows. It has absolutely nothing to do with him being American or white. I have a lot love for anyone that's getting somewhere regardless of where they are from. There are some great American/white speakers out there. I definitely like a lot of them. If you think I am in the least racist or nationalistic, you know nothing about me. I don't even recognize a country I am from. I don't see myself an Arab or anything else except on official government documents.

Hamza yusuf has been given the authority of issuing fatwas and is a scholar through the presentation of the certificate from his teachers in various arab countries. the sheikhs that hamza Yusuf has studied and learned from for 20 odd years are considered the best in the world. So if he has put in work and been given authority that he has today why can you not accept that. It seems as if his teachers have accepted that he is ready for the title of a scholar.

There's really no "graduation" kinda thing with scholars. One person will say this while another will say something else. If you mentioned a few names of those scholars, I am sure I'll find a problem with just about each one of them. You have to understand what "crew" I am with. It certainly is not the Sufee-in-crowd.

I know your an arab and the arabs that I myself have encountered seem to think that i am not a real muslim because I am not an arab.
Well just like Allah has stated in the Quran that he gives death to the living and then breings the dead back to life. The 'real' muslims seem to wanna 'die' by not following the sunnah so Allah has bought to life the dead hearts of the non-muslims.

Dude, I am so anti-nationalistic that my parents get mad at me for not recognizing their tribe. You wont find one letter coming out of my mouth that suggests any ties to a race or country.

Lol, so you have read books by Ibn Tayimmiya and subscribe to that school of thought yet you don't consider yourself a salafee.

Ibn Taymiyyah was not a Salafee. I wonder what you mean with those words. From what I have read from him, I've seen nothing saying "I am a Salafee." Salafees themselves will argue with me saying he was a Salafee, but then comes the question...what's a Salafee. My understanding of the word is someone living today who recognizes either scholars like Ibn Baaz as legitimate sources. The Salafees themselves will always say "no...it means someone who follows the Salaf." I don't mean to be prejudiced, but I think I've been long enough with Salafees to say that there's more about them than just followig the Salaf. There are certain characteristics, and I could pick out a Salafee quite easily on the street. For example, they're well known for shooting down others. That's one thing.

and what do you mean by "hamza yusuf is popular amongst sufees and people that don't care .? have you ever even listened to hamza yusuf?

People that don't care read and listen to anyone. They don't care who said what. They just read and listen. I am pretty sure I've read a thing or two by Hamza Yusuf. What I read is sufficient in preventing me from reading anymore of his stuff.

Yes, I do realise that people are calling themselves sunnis these days. But do you realise what a sunni is?
well do you realise exactly what a sunni is in traditional islam. its a person who follow one of the four imams. have you ever thought of learning what a sunni is?

You're wrong. A Sunee is someone who follows Ahlus-Sunnah-Wal-Jamaat. There's no other qualification for a Sunee. You don't have to follow any certain person except the Prophet. Let me tell you this. The Prophet's companions were Sunees eventhough the four Imaams weren't even alive. Does that mean they weren't Sunees because they didn't follow the Imaams?

I used to say that I belonged to a certain school, but I gave up on that. I realized that I really didn't follow that school. It would be stupid for me to say that I followed that school when I took everything from different places and people.

By the way, I am a Sunee.

you read biased and misconstrued literature of ibn taymiyya and make jusdgements agasint sufees. yet i bet you dont even understand what a sufi is.

Biased? I have not known a single man who's heart was more sincere in finding the truth than Ibn Taymiyyah. Ibn Taymiyyah would diss you or show a lot of love for you depending on how correctly you follow Islaam. Look at how he fought certain people will all his heart and body because he believed they were destroying the Umaah. That's someone who is sincere and not a rebel. He got out of his comfortable seat and put his life on the line for what he believed the truth.

I need to find a book by him that shows why he fought and what his intentions were.

For the record, I was a Sufee at one time. Don't say I don't know what a Sufee is. I practiced Tawassuf and took knowledge from Sufees. I began to do some more reading and found out that I really shouldn't be hanging out with Sufees.

i've still not really had a clear answer from you, apart from saying that he isn't allowed to be a scholar, wrell who are you to decide that when arab scholars have given him the permission.

To me, he has the same amount of knowledge as many people that have not been certified scholars.

 

[not really ken]

First off there is a 'graduation' kind of thing. You do need permission to teach from various universities which were establsished during the 'hey-day' of the islamic civilisation . not only that, but Shariah stipulated you need permission to teach.

Secondly, the Ahle-Sunnah-wal-Jammat are those people who subscribe to a madhab. And don't say 'that we're only supposed to follow the Prophet' to this comment, because then you have absoloutely no grasp of the realities of Islam.

Thirdly, you state that you would find fault in the scholars that Hamza Yusuf has learned from. that right there is an unbelievably foolsih statement. The people hamza Yusuf learned from are renowned scholars by everyone.

you have also clearly demonstrated your stubborness in not wanting to accept anyone. How can I converse with you?

leave it !

 

[H.E. Pennypacker]

First off there is a 'graduation' kind of thing.

At Islamic universities, yes. In terms of becoming a scholar, no. No one gives you a piece of paper saying you've become a scholar like they do at school.

You do need permission to teach from various universities which were establsished during the 'hey-day' of the islamic civilisation . not only that, but Shariah stipulated you need permission to teach.

I am not saying you dont need permission. I am saying that's there's no formal graduation for scholars.

Secondly, the Ahle-Sunnah-wal-Jammat are those people who subscribe to a madhab. And don't say 'that we're only supposed to follow the Prophet' to this comment, because then you have absoloutely no grasp of the realities of Islam.

I am not going to get into Taqleed because that's an age-old issue that really needs not repeating. There are already tons of fatawa and documents on Taqleed.

Thirdly, you state that you would find fault in the scholars that Hamza Yusuf has learned from. that right there is an unbelievably foolsih statement. The people hamza Yusuf learned from are renowned scholars by everyone.

You must be living in a small world. ken, believe me, there are people that wouldn't call "your people" scholars. It doesn't matter who you bring up. I am sure I'll find fault with each one of those people. As long as they are anything like Hamza Yusuf, I'll find fault with them.

you have also clearly demonstrated your stubborness in not wanting to accept anyone. How can I converse with you?

I am sure I am more open-minded than you. I am willing to accept anyone and any belief as long as it is according to Islaam. I am willing to drop all my beliefs for the right reason. So, if you brought me something to convince me otherwise, I'll go with you.

I've been through this before. The whole issue of Taqleed, Sufees, scholars, and everything else. Its pretty much history. Its already been talked about. There are books on these issues, and nothing we talk about could possibly shed any new light to the discussion.

Don't get mad because I am not down with Sufees. I am not part of the Salafee crowd either. If you're interested in more of my beliefs, check out IslamQa.com.

By the way, I believe in "the guilt of association." In other words, if you hang out with a certain "scholar," I consider you part of them. If I don't accept that "scholar," I don't accept you.

 

[not really ken]

i never brought you into a discussion to convine you. Rather to try and understand what exactly is going on with people, like you.
Sufism is not for everyone. Most people are content with the outward understanding of the Prophets message. The inward is for people who take what is enough, further.

 

[H.E. Pennypacker]

i never brought you into a discussion to convine you. Rather to try and understand what exactly is going on with people, like you.

Any question you have, here I am.

Sufism is not for everyone. Most people are content with the outward understanding of the Prophets message. The inward is for people who take what is enough, further.

That's what they always say. That Sufeesm is "spiritual Islaam." You see, we don't have a problem with 'Ibaadah (worship). Actually, its a critical aspect of Islaam that can't be ignored by anyone. The problem between you and I is not the importance of worship. It is how to worship.

Our understanding is that it should be done in a way that comes directly from the first generation. That means that there should be nothing new. Sufeesm, in its most correct form, is great, but there have been people that changed the ways of Sufeesm. It turned into a free-for-all where some people created new ways of worship, and that's the problem.

 

[H.E. Pennypacker]

What's your problem with Ibn Taymiyyah anyway? You didn't say much about him.

 

[Yahya]

As'Salam 'Alaikuum

It's well known that Hamza Yusuf adheres to the path of Sufism (can't recall which sufi sect) but what matters is that Hamza Yusuf practices certain sufi teachings that are alien to Islam.

brother ken wrote:

Secondly, the Ahle-Sunnah-wal-Jammat are those people who subscribe to a madhab. And don't say 'that we're only supposed to follow the Prophet' to this comment, because then you have absoloutely no grasp of the realities of Islam.

Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama'at do not necessarily subscribe to a particular madhab but rather they derive their information from the four madhabs and always follow the stronger opinion [based on evidence].

brother H.E. Pennypacker wrote:

PS: ken, I know you say you're a Sunee and stuff like that, but listen to this. Do you realize how many people call themselves Sunees nowadays? The Salafees, the Sufees, some crazy people out there, and a number of other people. When you say "I am a Sunee" it no longer points out a single group of people. In other words, there's too many people calling themselves by this name.

That's correct. Before the advent of many hizbs in our time, the terms Sunni or Ahlus-Sunnah were used to diffineriate from Ahlul Bid'ah . Then they (hizbs - sects) claimed that they belong to the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah and ergo, the term Salafi was used.

There are many pseudo-salafis who call label them salafis but do not follow the manhaj of the Salaf as Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen said:
It is obligatory for the Islamic Ummah to adopt the way of the salaf as-salih as their madhhab, not bigotry to those called "the salafis" -- referrin' those who do not follow the creed of the Salaf but adopted the name and made it in to a hizb.

Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan said:
There is not harm in labelling oneself with Salafiyyah when it is in truth. However, if it is merely a claim then it is not permissible to label oneself with Salafiyyah, whilst one is upon a manhaj other than that of the Salaf.

The Ash'aris for example, say We are "Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah" and this is not correct. This is because what they are upon is not the manhaj of Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah. It is likewise for the Mu'tazilah who call themselves "Muwahhideen" (Monotheists).

All of them claim to have love for Laylaa
Yet Laylaa does not affirm this for any of them

Hence, the one who claims that he is upon the madhhab of Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah [actually] follows the path of Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah and abandons the Opposers. However if he [is one who] wants to unite the lizard and the fisth - as they say - meaning, to unite a creature from the land with a creature from the sea, then this is not possible. Or to unite water and fire in a vessel. In light of this, Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah do not reconcile with the path (madhhab) of those who oppose them such as the Khawarij, the Mu'tazilah, the Hizbiyyeen amongst those who call themselves, the Contemporary Muslims. Such is one who wants to unite between the errors and misguidance of the contemporaries with the manhaj of the Salaf. So the latter part of this Ummah will not be corrected except by that which corrected its earliest part. The essence of the matter is that it is necessary to weigh matters and to separate them.

Ibn Taymiyyah says: "There is no blame on the one who manifests/proclaims the way (madhdhab) of the Salaf, who attaches himself to it and refers to it. Rather, it is obligatory to accept that from him by unanimous agreement (Ittifaaq), because the way (madhdhab) of the Salaf is nothing but the Truth (Haqq)." [From Majmoo al-Fataawaa, 4:149.]

Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan said, " The reasons for disunity are many. From amongst the main causes are: Firstly, opposing the minhaj (methodology) of the Salaf, the Companions of Allaah's Messenger and those who follow them. So the Salaf had a minhaj that they adhered to; a manhaj in aqeedah (creed), a manhaj in da'wah (calling to Allaah), a minhaj in enjoining good and forbidding evil, a manhaj in how to judge between people. This minhaj, in all situations, was based upon the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of our Messenger." [Wujoob ut-Tathabbut fil-Akhbaaar p.18]

Abu Haneefah (d. 150H) said: "Adhere to the athar (narration) and the tareeqah (way) of the Salaf (Pious Predecessors) and beware of newly invented matters for all of it is innovation" [Reported by As-Suyootee in Sawn al Mantaq wal-Kalaam p.32]

Shaykh Munajjid from islam-qa wrote:
If a person calls himself a Salafi to express his gratitude for having been guided to this way, or to clearly distinguish himself from innovation, then this is OK and is allowed in Islam.

So in short, the path of As-Salaf as-Saalih is the same path that the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and his companions (May Allah be pleased with them all) adhered to. In many saheeh hadiths, the sahaabah, the taabi'oon and the followers of the taabi'oon (atbaa' at-taabi'een) were the best generations of this Ummah.

'Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood (radhi-yallaahu 'anhu) narrated: The Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:
The people of my generation are the best, then those who follow them, and then those who follow the latter [Sahih Bukhari, 3/820]

Brother ken wrote:

Hamza yusuf has been given the authority of issuing fatwas and is a scholar through the presentation of the certificate from his teachers in various arab countries.

Hamza Yusuf is a student of knowledge. He is not a mufti who can issue fatwas.

Sufism is a deviated path that have introduced innovated practises.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said: “The words al-faqr and al-tasawwuf (i.e., Sufism) may include some things that are loved by Allaah and His Messenger, and these are things that are enjoined even if they are called faqr or tasawwuf, because the Qur’aan and Sunnah indicate that they are mustahabb and that is not altered if they called by other names. That also includes actions of the heart such as repentance and patience. And it may include things that are hated by Allaah and His Messenger, such as some kinds of belief in incarnation and pantheism, or monasticism that has been innovated in Islam, or things that go against sharee’ah and have been innovated, and so on. These things are forbidden no matter what names they are given… And it may include limiting oneself to a certain style of clothing or certain customs, ways of speaking and behaving, in such a way that anyone who goes beyond it is regarded as an outsider, although this is not something that has been stipulated in the Qur’aan or Sunnah; rather it may be something that is permissible or it may be something that is makrooh, and this is a bid’ah that is forbidden. This is not the way of the friends of Allaah (awliya’ Allaah); such things are innovations and misguidance that exists among those who claim to follow the Sufi path. Similarly, among those who claim to be servants of knowledge there are innovations that involve beliefs and words that go against the Qur’aan and Sunnah, using phrases and terminology that have no basis in sharee’ah. Many such things happen among those people.

The wise believer agrees with all people in that in which they are in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah and obey Allaah and His Messenger, but he does not agree with that in which they go against the Qur’aan and Sunnah and disobey Allaah and His Messenger. He accepts from every group that which was taught by the Messenger… when a person seeks the truth and justice, based on knowledge, he is one of the successful friends of Allaah and His victorious party…
Al-Fataawa, 11/280-290.


The best and most trusthworty website on the net regardin' Islam based on Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama'at manhaj and uses direct and authoritative references is www.islamqa.com.

It's maintained by Shaykh Munajjid who has been taught under Shaykh Bin Baaz (rahimahullah)

Wa 'Alaikuum Salam

 

[H.E. Pennypacker]

Lovely. Just lovely. Thanks, Yahya.

ken, he pretty much summed it up.

 

[United Slaves]

H.E. Pennypacker, whats up with the links on your signature? Not very Islamic.

 

[not really ken]

As'Salam 'Alaikuum

Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama'at do not necessarily subscribe to a particular madhab but rather they derive their information from the four madhabs and always follow the stronger opinion [based on evidence].

yes they do 'subscribe'. IT was the 4 imams who have collated the evidence and made the rulings. each one you follow is the stragiht path. different parts of the prophets life have benn taken hence the differences. yet it is all from the quran and sunnah. there would be no need to 'derive; anything further. it is all there for the people

That's correct. Before the advent of many hizbs in our time, the terms Sunni or Ahlus-Sunnah were used to diffineriate from Ahlul Bid'ah . Then they (hizbs - sects) claimed that they belong to the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah and ergo, the term Salafi was used.

There are many pseudo-salafis who call label them salafis but do not follow the manhaj of the Salaf as Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen said:
It is obligatory for the Islamic Ummah to adopt the way of the salaf as-salih as their madhhab, not bigotry to those called "the salafis" -- referrin' those who do not follow the creed of the Salaf but adopted the name and made it in to a hizb.

Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan said:
There is not harm in labelling oneself with Salafiyyah when it is in truth. However, if it is merely a claim then it is not permissible to label oneself with Salafiyyah, whilst one is upon a manhaj other than that of the Salaf.

The Ash'aris for example, say We are "Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah" and this is not correct. This is because what they are upon is not the manhaj of Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah. It is likewise for the Mu'tazilah who call themselves "Muwahhideen" (Monotheists).

All of them claim to have love for Laylaa
Yet Laylaa does not affirm this for any of them

Hence, the one who claims that he is upon the madhhab of Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah [actually] follows the path of Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah and abandons the Opposers. However if he [is one who] wants to unite the lizard and the fisth - as they say - meaning, to unite a creature from the land with a creature from the sea, then this is not possible. Or to unite water and fire in a vessel. In light of this, Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah do not reconcile with the path (madhhab) of those who oppose them such as the Khawarij, the Mu'tazilah, the Hizbiyyeen amongst those who call themselves, the Contemporary Muslims. Such is one who wants to unite between the errors and misguidance of the contemporaries with the manhaj of the Salaf. So the latter part of this Ummah will not be corrected except by that which corrected its earliest part. The essence of the matter is that it is necessary to weigh matters and to separate them.

Ibn Taymiyyah says: "There is no blame on the one who manifests/proclaims the way (madhdhab) of the Salaf, who attaches himself to it and refers to it. Rather, it is obligatory to accept that from him by unanimous agreement (Ittifaaq), because the way (madhdhab) of the Salaf is nothing but the Truth (Haqq)." [From Majmoo al-Fataawaa, 4:149.]

Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan said, " The reasons for disunity are many. From amongst the main causes are: Firstly, opposing the minhaj (methodology) of the Salaf, the Companions of Allaah's Messenger and those who follow them. So the Salaf had a minhaj that they adhered to; a manhaj in aqeedah (creed), a manhaj in da'wah (calling to Allaah), a minhaj in enjoining good and forbidding evil, a manhaj in how to judge between people. This minhaj, in all situations, was based upon the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of our Messenger." [Wujoob ut-Tathabbut fil-Akhbaaar p.18]

Abu Haneefah (d. 150H) said: "Adhere to the athar (narration) and the tareeqah (way) of the Salaf (Pious Predecessors) and beware of newly invented matters for all of it is innovation" [Reported by As-Suyootee in Sawn al Mantaq wal-Kalaam p.32]

Shaykh Munajjid from islam-qa wrote:
If a person calls himself a Salafi to express his gratitude for having been guided to this way, or to clearly distinguish himself from innovation, then this is OK and is allowed in Islam.

So in short, the path of As-Salaf as-Saalih is the same path that the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and his companions (May Allah be pleased with them all) adhered to. In many saheeh hadiths, the sahaabah, the taabi'oon and the followers of the taabi'oon (atbaa' at-taabi'een) were the best generations of this Ummah.

'Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood (radhi-yallaahu 'anhu) narrated: The Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:
The people of my generation are the best, then those who follow them, and then those who follow

thanks for the lesson but what has this brought apart from the opinions of certain scholars and some obvious stuff like 'follow the Quran and sunnah'

Hamza Yusuf is a student of knowledge. He is not a mufti who can issue fatwas.

I don't believe he has ever issued a fatwa. There's no need for more muftis anyway, there's enough Arabic scholars issuing fatwas telling us that interest is Halal nowadays anyway. who needs a 'student of knowledge' when we got these big wigs.

stop getting caught up in labels!!!!!! Islam is a facing new problems in the 21st century, nobody is applying islam to new problems faced like Hamza Yusuf and a select few other scholars. that is from islam I just can' remember the term now. it is the islamic concept of critical thinking based on shariah

Sufism is a deviated path that have introduced innovated practises.

'hey you over there, I just don't like you'. <--another way of saying what you just said here. Shariah has never catered for the inner!!

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said: “The words al-faqr and al-tasawwuf (i.e., Sufism) may include some things that are loved by Allaah and His Messenger, and these are things that are enjoined even if they are called faqr or tasawwuf, because the Qur’aan and Sunnah indicate that they are mustahabb and that is not altered if they called by other names. That also includes actions of the heart such as repentance and patience.

Make sure you understand this fully.

And it may include things that are hated by Allaah and His Messenger, such as some kinds of belief in incarnation and pantheism, or monasticism that has been innovated in Islam, or things that go against sharee’ah and have been innovated, and so on. These things are forbidden no matter what names they are given… And it may include limiting oneself to a certain style of clothing or certain customs, ways of speaking and behaving, in such a way that anyone who goes beyond it is regarded as an outsider, although this is not something that has been stipulated in the Qur’aan or Sunnah; rather it may be something that is permissible or it may be something that is makrooh, and this is a bid’ah that is forbidden. This is not the way of the friends of Allaah (awliya’ Allaah); such things are innovations and misguidance that exists among those who claim to follow the Sufi path. Similarly, among those who claim to be servants of knowledge there are innovations that involve beliefs and words that go against the Qur’aan and Sunnah, using phrases and terminology that have no basis in sharee’ah. Many such things happen among those people.

blind bashing again. Baseless and ignorant accusations!!!!!! What more can I say

The wise believer agrees with all people in that in which they are in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah and obey Allaah and His Messenger, but he does not agree with that in which they go against the Qur’aan and Sunnah and disobey Allaah and His Messenger. He accepts from every group that which was taught by the Messenger… when a person seeks the truth and justice, based on knowledge, he is one of the successful friends of Allaah and His victorious party…

Al-Fataawa, 11/280-290.

I agree

 

[H.E. Pennypacker]

IT was the 4 imams who have collated the evidence and made the rulings. each one you follow is the stragiht path. different parts of the prophets life have benn taken hence the differences. yet it is all from the quran and sunnah. there would be no need to 'derive; anything further. it is all there for the people

ken, you know that we have nothing against the four scholars, right? You should understand that first. They're all very much respected.

Are you implying that Muslims are in need of only four scholars? That's ridiculous. You say that the four scholars interpreted and did everything, but that's hardly the case. Its impossible for just four people to completely address the Quran and Sunnah. Not only that, but because we're all human, we don't take just from them.

I could understand what you're saying when it comes to the Prophet. I always know that he cannot make any mistakes when it comes to rulings, and that's why he gets my undevided attention. That's only the Prophet, however.

I don't solely listen to anyone but him. That's because everyone is prone to making mistakes, and if we know people make mistakes, why are you telling someone that they should constantly follow that one person whether they're right or wrong?

I don't even listen to the Prophet's companions on everything, because I know even they could make mistakes. When I say this, its not meant to insult their friendship with the Prophet. It is meant to address the fact that they are humans.

My question to you is...do you deny the fact that as humanbeings they do make mistakes?

That's all this is about: whether or not they make mistakes. That's it. If they didn't make mistakes, I'd be more than happy to follow just one.

I don't believe he has ever issued a fatwa. There's no need for more muftis anyway, there's enough Arabic scholars issuing fatwas telling us that interest is Halal nowadays anyway. who needs a 'student of knowledge' when we got these big wigs.

stop getting caught up in labels!!!!!! Islam is a facing new problems in the 21st century, nobody is applying islam to new problems faced like Hamza Yusuf and a select few other scholars. that is from islam I just can' remember the term now. it is the islamic concept of critical thinking based on shariah

I don't really care what his label is. There are more important things, and when we say that he's not a scholar its only out of fear that we may get the wrong information from someone. Its not only with him. We want to make sure that they know what they're talking about.

Actually, we take information from both students and scholars, but the difference between students and scholars is that the students have to cite which scholar they learned the particular information from.

When someone is a scholar, we already know that they've studied under other scholars for a certain period of time.

'hey you over there, I just don't like you'. <--another way of saying what you just said here. Shariah has never catered for the inner!!

Why don't you address what he said?

Make sure you understand this fully.

I don't know where you got that quote from, but there's reasonable explanation. It could be that he was saying that Sufism itself is perfectly fine, but the additions have ruined it. Sufism, in reality, is nothing but remembering God. That's fine, but how you go about it is the question.

The way many Sufees go about "remembering God" is wrong.

blind bashing again. Baseless and ignorant accusations!!!!!! What more can I say

That's not blind bashing in any way. The man has seen it with his own two eyes. Practically everyone around him was like that. He had first hand experience with Sufees. What can I say....he lived right amongst them.

Please address the specific claims.

 

[not really ken]

ken, you know that we have nothing against the four scholars, right? You should understand that first. They're all very much respected.

Are you implying that Muslims are in need of only four scholars? That's ridiculous. You say that the four scholars interpreted and did everything, but that's hardly the case. Its impossible for just four people to completely address the Quran and Sunnah. Not only that, but because we're all human, we don't take just from them.

the preservation of the deen has come from Allah. The 4 imams have continuously stated throughout their lives that they are prone to mistakes. however, the burden of their mistake is bore by them only and not us who follow them. besides, if anyone is more qualified to make the rulings based on the Quran and Sunnah it is the 4 imams, not me or you and all 'other' scholars are people who have simply enforced the ideas of the 4 imams after much dilution begins to pore into islam. All other scholars unnimously hold the rulings of the 4 imams like gold dust. the differences in their opinions have come from the different actions during the prophets life. initially slah was prayed in a certain way (that is sunnah) but then it was modified by the prophet (that is also sunnah). whcih way is right? they're both right. I don;t think that by folowing any one of them that you will be mis-guided. since a genuinly intentioned ruling by a scholar (though wrong) still gives that scholar good deeds.

I could understand what you're saying when it comes to the Prophet. I always know that he cannot make any mistakes when it comes to rulings, and that's why he gets my undevided attention. That's only the Prophet, however.

I don't solely listen to anyone but him. That's because everyone is prone to making mistakes, and if we know people make mistakes, why are you telling someone that they should constantly follow that one person whether they're right or wrong?

everybody follows the rulings of the prophet. lol, when did I say that you should follow a scholar when he is wrong? If that was the case, I would be following Ibn Tayimmiyah . The rulings of the 4 imams are not wrong. they are taken directly from the Quran and Sunnah and Imam Abu Hanifah learnt from the sahabah. He was a second generation muslim. The prophet said that the first three generations of my ummah will be on the stragiht path after that there will be dilution. now are you telling me that the prophet was wrong? y saying that imam abu hanifah made mistakes in his rulings? go read about abu hanifas life and what he did for islam. there are also further hadith which enforce the authority of imam abu hanifa.

I don't even listen to the Prophet's companions on everything, because I know even they could make mistakes. When I say this, its not meant to insult their friendship with the Prophet. It is meant to address the fact that they are humans.

the Prophet said "the sunnah of my sahaba is also my sunnah". nuff said. are you saying that the prophets sunnah is a fallacy?

My question to you is...do you deny the fact that as humanbeings they do make mistakes?

Some sahabah commited the biggest sins such as adultery!! Are sins mistakes? Ofcourse they are. They are mistakes and injustices to your soul. But quit taking parts of the prophets sayings and base things on the totality of the prophets life. thjis isn't a black and white issue where im going to give you a yes or no answer. did they mistakes? "yes they did". Is that the be all and end all? "no it isn't". I don't like this literalism in Islam.

That's all this is about: whether or not they make mistakes. That's it. If they didn't make mistakes, I'd be more than happy to follow just one.

lack of understanding again.

Why don't you address what he said?

he didn't really say anything apart fro accusations with no supporting evidence.

I don't know where you got that quote from, but there's reasonable explanation. It could be that he was saying that Sufism itself is perfectly fine, but the additions have ruined it. Sufism, in reality, is nothing but remembering God. That's fine, but how you go about it is the question.

Yes!!And Christianity was perfectly fine till the addition of you know what. Islam is perfectly fine untill the additions take you into kuffar. I like how you are blindly throwing the wild accusation around now that "oh, its ok, but the additions are ruining it" what addition? have you ever cared to question or listen to someone about what you think are 'the addtions which are ruining it'? or do you just read books which are there to discredit others?

The way many Sufees go about "remembering God" is wrong.

yes, there are many people in the world who are practising islam wrongly. not just 'sufees'. does this make the original reality wrong. there is no shariah law in the world today. kaffir say that there's no point having a 'concept' if your not putting it into practise therefore islam is bullshit! do you agree with that? few ignorant people give it a bad name!

That's not blind bashing in any way. The man has seen it with his own two eyes. Practically everyone around him was like that. He had first hand experience with Sufees. What can I say....he lived right amongst them.

can you pin point exactly what is the innovations? Ibn Taymiyah has a crewd understanding of innovation. Agreed by all sunni scholars

dress the specific claims.

can you actually please make specific claims?

 

[Yahya]

yes they do 'subscribe'. IT was the 4 imams who have collated the evidence and made the rulings. each one you follow is the stragiht path. different parts of the prophets life have benn taken hence the differences. yet it is all from the quran and sunnah. there would be no need to 'derive; anything further. it is all there for the people

As'Salam 'Alaikuum, sorry for my delayed replies. I'm currently in an 'exam phase'

The four Imams are mujtahideen and they emphasized on numerous occasions that we should always refer to the Qur'an and the Sunnah. None of them ever called the people to follow his madhab.

Abu Hanifah (rahimahullah) said:
"It is not permitted for anyone to accept our views if they do not know from where we got them."

"When I say something contradicting the Book of Allaah the Exalted or what is narrated from the Messenger (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam), then ignore my saying."

Malik ibn Anas (rahimahullah) said:
"Truly I am only a mortal: I make mistakes (sometimes) and I am correct (sometimes). Therefore, look into my opinions: all that agrees with the Book and the Sunnah, accept it; and all that does not agree with the Book and the Sunnah, ignore it."

Shaafi'i (rahimahullah) said:
"If you find in my writings something different to the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam), then speak on the basis of the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam), and leave what I have said."

"When a hadeeth is found to be saheeh, then that is my madhhab."

Ahmad ibn Hanbal (rahimahullah) said:
"Do not follow my opinion; neither follow the opinion of Malik, nor Shaafi'i, nor Awzaa'i, nor Thawri, but take from where they took."

So thus, if the rulings of the four imaams contradict the Qur'an and the Sunnah; one cannot claim that by following these rulings, he or she is on the straight path.

Shaykh Muhammad ibn ’Abdul-Wahhaab, rahimahullaah, said:
"If a person is learning fiqh from one of the four madhhabs, then he sees a hadeeth that opposes his madhhab; and so he follows it and leaves his madhhab - then this is recommended, rather it is obligatory upon him when the proof has been made clear to him. This would not be considered as opposing his Imaam that he follows, since they - Abu Haneefah, Maalik, ash-Shaafi’ee and Ahmad, radiallaahu ’anhum ajma’een - were all agreed upon this fundamental principle ... As for the case whereby a person does not have any evidence which opposes the view of the scholars of the madhhab, then we hope that it is permissible to act upon it, since their opinions are better than our own opinions; they took their proofs from the sayings of the Companions and those who came after them. However, it is not essential to declare with certainty (al-jazm) that this is the Sharee’ah of Allaah and His Messenger, until the proof that is not contradicted in this issue is made clear. This is the action of the Salaf of this Ummah and its scholars - both previous and recent - as well as that which they criticised: namely having bigotted partisanship for particular madhhabs (at-ta’assubul-madhaahib) and leaving off following the proof."

For more fatwas regardin' followin' a particular madhab by Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan, Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-’Uthaymeen and Shaykhul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah go here:
http://islaam.net/main/display.php?part=4&category=7&id=42

Shaykhul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah (rahimahullaah) said:

"It has been established in the Book, the Sunnah and theijmaa’ that Allaah, the Most Perfect, obligated upon the creation obedience to Him, and obedience to His Messenger sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam. It is not obligatory upon this Ummah to obey anyone in particular in all that he may commands and prohibits, except the Messenger sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam; to the extent that the most truthful of this Ummah and the most virtuous after its Prophet [i.e. Abu Bakr] said: "Obey me in what is obedience to Allaah. But if I disobey Allaah, then there is no obedience to me upon you." They are all agreed that there is no single person who is infallible in all that he may order or prohibit, except for Allaah’s Messenger sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam. That is why more than one of the scholars have said: "Every person’s saying can be taken or left, except for Allaah’s Messenger sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam." And the four Imaams, may Allaah be pleased with them, all forbade the people from blindly following them in all that they may say; and this was an obligation upon them [to do]."

I don't believe he has ever issued a fatwa. There's no need for more muftis anyway, there's enough Arabic scholars issuing fatwas telling us that interest is Halal nowadays anyway. who needs a 'student of knowledge' when we got these big wigs.

Akhee, you wrote:
Hamza yusuf has been given the authority of issuing fatwas

How can Hazma Yusuf who is a student of knowledge been given the authority to issue fatwas whilst he hasn't reached the status of a mufti.

And bro, what's your grudge with "arabic scholars". No sane scholar of Islam would ever issue a fatwa allowing riba. In fact, could you quote me the fatwa and which scholar.

stop getting caught up in labels!!!!!! Islam is a facing new problems in the 21st century, nobody is applying islam to new problems faced like Hamza Yusuf and a select few other scholars. that is from islam I just can' remember the term now. it is the islamic concept of critical thinking based on shariah

Do you mean ijtihaad? And what kinda problems is Islaam facing? Islaam is facing no problems, it's Muslims who are leaving the Qur'an and the Sunnah.

'hey you over there, I just don't like you'. <--another way of saying what you just said here. Shariah has never catered for the inner!!

Brother, how does that apply to what I stated? Are you arquing that Sufism is the straight path? Some of the teachings of Sufism involve doing tawaf around graves and praying to the dead as a means of worship and drawing closer to Allah (Exalted is He). They claim that awliyaa (saints) have knowledge of alghayb (the Unseen). We all know that such teachings are kufr and shirk. They invent phrases and names for Allah that are not in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Such people clearly have strayed from the Qur'an and the Sunnah.

Make sure you understand this fully.

I don't think you really grasped what Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) really said. He said that there are some practices that are in accordance with the Qur'an and the Sunnah but there also some practices that are clearly innovations and also shirk.

blind bashing again. Baseless and ignorant accusations!!!!!! What more can I say

Blind bashing? By making their deviated practicses known connotes to blind-bashing? I'll be willing to discuss with you the teachings of Sufism if you adhere to that way.

Brother ken wrote:

now are you telling me that the prophet was wrong? y saying that imam abu hanifah made mistakes in his rulings? go read about abu hanifas life and what he did for islam. there are also further hadith which enforce the authority of imam abu hanifa.

Abu Hanifah (rahimahullah) could have erred but he will still be rewarded for his ijtihaad. That's because the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah) said one who tries and goes wrong is rewarded only once, while one who tries and goes right is rewarded double: once for trying and making the effort, and once for going right.

And which hadiths enforce the authority of Abu Hanifah (rahimahullah) 'cause that would be really odd considerin' that hadiths are traced back to the Prophet. Did the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) personally praise Abu Hanifa (rahimahullah)?

On a serious note bro,

Abu Hanifah (rahimahullah) said:
"Woe to you, O Ya'qub! Do not write down everything you hear from me, for it happens that I hold one opinion today and reject it tomorrow, or hold one opinion tomorrow and reject it the day after tomorrow."

"It is prohibited for someone who does not know my evidence to give verdicts on the basis of my words. For we are mortals: we say one thing one day, and take it back the next day."

Wa'salaam