http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103
I don't know how to embed successfully. What do you guys think?
I don't know how to embed successfully. What do you guys think?
Fitna
- Thread starter S O F I
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There are a lot of gruesome images, and I think it does a tremendous job of showing the violence of Islamic extremism.
That being said, this video is being used to scare the Dutch people about the religion, not to provide an objective view in order to educate people about it.
I think it will provoke a lot of ill feelings towards Muslims and lead to misplaced ill treatment, which is wrong.
That being said, this video is being used to scare the Dutch people about the religion, not to provide an objective view in order to educate people about it.
I think it will provoke a lot of ill feelings towards Muslims and lead to misplaced ill treatment, which is wrong.
Im going to make a very bold statement that is going to get me yelled at.
I think that out of the main religions that have extremists, Islam has the most because out of all of the religions it is set up with the most reasons and excuses, and even provocations, to commit acts of brutality in the name of the religion. Furthermore out of the main religions it preaches the most ignorance in regards to "we are right because God says so," and does not take into account anybody else's views and opinions. Out of the main religions I believe Islam teaches the most self justification for war and brutality.
However, I do not believe all Muslims are bad. I do however believe that the environment nurtures terror and brutality against other beliefs nearly as much if not equally to teaching love and forgiveness; which is the other side of the coin.
If you disagree, thats cool. This is my belief. I have many Muslim friends, and even they admit that Islam teaches acts of brutality more so than other religions. We actually had a discussion about this not long ago while playing pool. For a lot of them, this is why their parents left their countries.
I think that out of the main religions that have extremists, Islam has the most because out of all of the religions it is set up with the most reasons and excuses, and even provocations, to commit acts of brutality in the name of the religion. Furthermore out of the main religions it preaches the most ignorance in regards to "we are right because God says so," and does not take into account anybody else's views and opinions. Out of the main religions I believe Islam teaches the most self justification for war and brutality.
However, I do not believe all Muslims are bad. I do however believe that the environment nurtures terror and brutality against other beliefs nearly as much if not equally to teaching love and forgiveness; which is the other side of the coin.
If you disagree, thats cool. This is my belief. I have many Muslim friends, and even they admit that Islam teaches acts of brutality more so than other religions. We actually had a discussion about this not long ago while playing pool. For a lot of them, this is why their parents left their countries.
.. I've said this a million times and will say it again. Certain Islamic leaders incorrectly use parts of the Quran and Hadith, to motivate extreme acts from individuals that are basically suicidal and have lost hope or people that are easily manipulated.
Anybody that has a comprehensive understanding of the religion will tell you that Islam does not promote terrorism. Islam promotes justice.
These acts that you hear and read about are not and can not be considered jihad. In order for Muslims to go for Jihad (btw the word jihad has several different contexts) but when referring to Holy War, an Islamic Caliphate must declare it. An Islamic Caliphate does not exist. Therefore Jihad can not exist.. Jihad is also governed by many laws, for example it is absolutely forbidden to kill innocent people.
Let me break it down further, when looking at Islam, you can not just look at the text and be like hmm ok I get it. Because you need to understand that according to Islam, verses were revealed at different times. There's a popular verse that is used as propganda against muslims,as well as used by muslims as propaganda to create extremist. And to paraphrase, it says something about 'killing the kaafir (or chopping off their heads) wherever you see them'. This verse was revealed at a time of war, and was referring to the opposing army. It was not referring to random non muslims. In fact it was not even referring to any war, it was a commandment passed down for that particular battle. Now its easy to see how someone can take that verse and completely misinterpret it, if they look no further into it.
I've seen a lot of discussion about how brutal Islamiclaw/shariah is, for example, cutting the hand of a thief. Ok personally i sit there and go, holy shit, thats a bit over the edge! But then i think about the flip side, that if i lived in a society like that I dont think i'd have to worry much about somebody stealing my wallet, u know? Annd again, I was reading somewhere that the laws past down were meant to be extreme and make people feel uneasy, so that nobody would dare commit such an infraction.
As far as equality is concerned. You're absolutely right. Islam does not promote equality. Islam promotes Justice. To me personally justice is more important than equality. The reason is that equality is an illusion, it doesn't exist anywhere on the planet. You may not agree with what Islamic rulings advocate as just, which is fine. No religion treats everyone equally, people make it sound like Islamis the only religion that says you will go to hell if you dont follow God's commandments that are outlined in their respective holy books. I personally have met people Jews and Christians (especially christians) that tell me to my face that i'm going to burn in hell for an eternity.
"we are right because God says so,"... HA! c'mon dude u sounding like you never ran into those christian missionaries in the inner cities trying to convert anybody and everybody of color, and their only reasoning behind all their statements is "cuz god said so!"
.. at the end of the day man the way I look at it, any religion is poisonous when misused. I just think real Muslim leaders need to step up and kill the ignorance plaguing their lands... But then again some would argue that the west is more scared of that than the ignorant extremist u see here n there.
peace
Anybody that has a comprehensive understanding of the religion will tell you that Islam does not promote terrorism. Islam promotes justice.
These acts that you hear and read about are not and can not be considered jihad. In order for Muslims to go for Jihad (btw the word jihad has several different contexts) but when referring to Holy War, an Islamic Caliphate must declare it. An Islamic Caliphate does not exist. Therefore Jihad can not exist.. Jihad is also governed by many laws, for example it is absolutely forbidden to kill innocent people.
Let me break it down further, when looking at Islam, you can not just look at the text and be like hmm ok I get it. Because you need to understand that according to Islam, verses were revealed at different times. There's a popular verse that is used as propganda against muslims,as well as used by muslims as propaganda to create extremist. And to paraphrase, it says something about 'killing the kaafir (or chopping off their heads) wherever you see them'. This verse was revealed at a time of war, and was referring to the opposing army. It was not referring to random non muslims. In fact it was not even referring to any war, it was a commandment passed down for that particular battle. Now its easy to see how someone can take that verse and completely misinterpret it, if they look no further into it.
I've seen a lot of discussion about how brutal Islamiclaw/shariah is, for example, cutting the hand of a thief. Ok personally i sit there and go, holy shit, thats a bit over the edge! But then i think about the flip side, that if i lived in a society like that I dont think i'd have to worry much about somebody stealing my wallet, u know? Annd again, I was reading somewhere that the laws past down were meant to be extreme and make people feel uneasy, so that nobody would dare commit such an infraction.
As far as equality is concerned. You're absolutely right. Islam does not promote equality. Islam promotes Justice. To me personally justice is more important than equality. The reason is that equality is an illusion, it doesn't exist anywhere on the planet. You may not agree with what Islamic rulings advocate as just, which is fine. No religion treats everyone equally, people make it sound like Islamis the only religion that says you will go to hell if you dont follow God's commandments that are outlined in their respective holy books. I personally have met people Jews and Christians (especially christians) that tell me to my face that i'm going to burn in hell for an eternity.
"we are right because God says so,"... HA! c'mon dude u sounding like you never ran into those christian missionaries in the inner cities trying to convert anybody and everybody of color, and their only reasoning behind all their statements is "cuz god said so!"
.. at the end of the day man the way I look at it, any religion is poisonous when misused. I just think real Muslim leaders need to step up and kill the ignorance plaguing their lands... But then again some would argue that the west is more scared of that than the ignorant extremist u see here n there.
peace
Because this is an obvious reply to me and you have made valid points I will reply to you but I dont intend of making it a habit in this thread as I dont think it will go anywhere.
True, but the Quran allows itself to be interpreted as such because those passages exist. Its not like the Quran says "Love everyone" and some mad man misinterprets this as "Kill them all." The Quran says "cut their heads off." People read that and cut their heads off. The Quran doesnt exactly make it a stretch of reasoning to come up with these ideas.
I guarantee you that the majority of those people in that video clip have a "comprehensive understanding of the religion" and they will tell you differently. And justice is relative to the perception of those issuing it. You may think it is justice to stone homosexuals and commit honor killings, I do not.
Once again the people in the video and the millions of others like them will differ with you on that opinion because the Quran gives them reason to do so.
Yet the Quran has as so many what can only be called loop holes people still declare Jihad and innocent people still suffer and die.
If this book is so holy and was written by Allah why is it so hard to understand? Why all the misinterpretations. Why not just say "dont kill them" or "cut their heads off in this particular battle but not later on?" The fact that the Quran can not be updated gives people the reasoning to look into past examples. There is no new Quran, so in their eyes, because it was once acceptable to murder people in that war, they are allowed to do it again in this "war." This is the fault of the religion and the Quran because it gives people bad examples to follow. Like I said, it preaches brutality.
These are brutal out dated laws. They had their time in Christian nations but luckily our societies grew and got rid of them as we found better ways of punishment. Islamic nations that still do this live by the same rules the rest of the world lives by in the dark ages.
Luckily for everyone Christianity, which was the ruling religion, grew and evolved past these primitive methods. If Islam had done the same the world would be a lot more peaceful.
The difference is that modern Christianity does not preach murder as a punishment, it says that God will sort them out once they die. Islam expects its followers to act out this justice on its behalf, which is wrong and what causes all the conflict.
I agree, any religion is dangerous when misused. But like I said, the difference is Christianity has evolved past the acts it carried out during the dark ages and crusades, Islam doesnt want to.
A lot of individuals do. A lot of Muslims live good lives, because their ideas have evolved and modernized, they dont exact justice on people in their community, they just live life the way they want to. But Islam as a whole, because it is in control of so many countries does not want to evolve as it will mean a loss of power.
I look at it this way, yes, there are terrible terrible Christians out there, but by large we do not let them attain power and we do not follow what they say. I am confident in saying that there are a lot more "normal" Christians than there are extremists. I think that it is pretty fair to say that extremist Christians are a minority.
On the other hand, I think it swings the other way with Islam. I believe that the good Muslims are a minority. And thats a shame, and something I very desperately hope changes before the religion's name is tarnished forever.
True, but the Quran allows itself to be interpreted as such because those passages exist. Its not like the Quran says "Love everyone" and some mad man misinterprets this as "Kill them all." The Quran says "cut their heads off." People read that and cut their heads off. The Quran doesnt exactly make it a stretch of reasoning to come up with these ideas.
I guarantee you that the majority of those people in that video clip have a "comprehensive understanding of the religion" and they will tell you differently. And justice is relative to the perception of those issuing it. You may think it is justice to stone homosexuals and commit honor killings, I do not.
Once again the people in the video and the millions of others like them will differ with you on that opinion because the Quran gives them reason to do so.
Yet the Quran has as so many what can only be called loop holes people still declare Jihad and innocent people still suffer and die.
If this book is so holy and was written by Allah why is it so hard to understand? Why all the misinterpretations. Why not just say "dont kill them" or "cut their heads off in this particular battle but not later on?" The fact that the Quran can not be updated gives people the reasoning to look into past examples. There is no new Quran, so in their eyes, because it was once acceptable to murder people in that war, they are allowed to do it again in this "war." This is the fault of the religion and the Quran because it gives people bad examples to follow. Like I said, it preaches brutality.
These are brutal out dated laws. They had their time in Christian nations but luckily our societies grew and got rid of them as we found better ways of punishment. Islamic nations that still do this live by the same rules the rest of the world lives by in the dark ages.
Luckily for everyone Christianity, which was the ruling religion, grew and evolved past these primitive methods. If Islam had done the same the world would be a lot more peaceful.
Whose justice? It doesnt promote my justice at all. It promotes its own justice which is very, very, very biased in its own favor.
The difference is that modern Christianity does not preach murder as a punishment, it says that God will sort them out once they die. Islam expects its followers to act out this justice on its behalf, which is wrong and what causes all the conflict.
But none of them tried to cut your head off or preached anything to that nature. Luckily their opinion is only that, an opinion, they do not act on it.
Converting and killing are two totally different things.
I agree, any religion is dangerous when misused. But like I said, the difference is Christianity has evolved past the acts it carried out during the dark ages and crusades, Islam doesnt want to.
A lot of individuals do. A lot of Muslims live good lives, because their ideas have evolved and modernized, they dont exact justice on people in their community, they just live life the way they want to. But Islam as a whole, because it is in control of so many countries does not want to evolve as it will mean a loss of power.
I look at it this way, yes, there are terrible terrible Christians out there, but by large we do not let them attain power and we do not follow what they say. I am confident in saying that there are a lot more "normal" Christians than there are extremists. I think that it is pretty fair to say that extremist Christians are a minority.
On the other hand, I think it swings the other way with Islam. I believe that the good Muslims are a minority. And thats a shame, and something I very desperately hope changes before the religion's name is tarnished forever.
I agree only I would remove "when misused" and replace it with "used."
If the Quran, or any Holy book, can be so easily misinterpreted, than it is flawed. Either that or God surely knew it would be so misinterpreted and purposely made it that way. He wanted it to be misinterpreted that way; therefore, the misinterpreters are also doing God's work.
The devil wrote them.
"God works in mysterious ways"
The Holy Books aren't part of his whole style, God is far more mysterious than that. A book in the style of Mein Kampf would gain momentum but ultimately it would be defeated. Holy Books that preach good things but leave room for some things to be misinterpreted and lead to violence would stick around forever. So yeah ... Satan.
From what I've seen so far it's a somewhat misguided piece but not purposely. It shouldn't be taken as "this is what Islam is like" but (in his own words) a look at how the Muslim religion poses a great threat to our freedom. It's meant as a warning.
I don't think this will have a great effect on Dutch people in general.
I don't really see how the Qu'ran is any more violent or ignorant or dangerous than the Bible. I mean, the Bible teaches that "everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman". It's not like the Bible is all rainbows and puppies.
The film is politically motivated though and he's a politican in today's climate. Obviously the Christians that call Islam violent need to take a good look at their own religion but violence motivated through the Qur'an is simply the in thing right now. All the cool kids are doing it.
Except that 99.9% of Christians look at those passages and dismiss them. Christianity has moved from the 1300s to the the 21st century, Islam is still in the 900s.
Van Gogh.
As for the Bible, I don't recall it ever saying; "if you renounce Christianity, you will be put to death"
I'll state my opinion about all this later though.
"Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death."
Pretty unambiguous.
Well, since there was no such thing as "Christianity" when any of the Bible was written, it's unlikely it would say that.
But, oddly, it does mention Scientology.
http://rapidshare.com/files/103202065/fitna.mp4
rapidshare link for the people who didnt get to see the video
rapidshare link for the people who didnt get to see the video
Wilders is an idiot. Most Dutch know this. I'm not going to watch his poor propaganda movie, I'm not about to give him the attention he craves.
And yes, Christianity, and Judaism to a lesser extent, were reshapen during the Enlightenment (Age of Reason). Islam never had that.
And yes, Christianity, and Judaism to a lesser extent, were reshapen during the Enlightenment (Age of Reason). Islam never had that.
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