American vs. The World

[tennis_dog]

there's been alot about this topic recently with everyone that i talk to....we've got the americans that love american cars, only buy american cars, and they think that all foreigns are crap....

then there are the americans that only study imports...thats the only thing they'll buy and they feel that those are the best cars...

after the other thread i made, i figured, why not put them all against each other....

im just gonna use quotes from the other thread that kinda set the tone of the argument or the explanations..

RB26DETT's, that's all I can think of at the moment. Most Japanese sportscar engines have insane potential, apart from the NSX and RX7 I guess, which need work to tickle them. But yeah, Sky's, Supra's, GT's, Evo's, huge potential.

what gives japanese cars this huge potential?? one thing i came to know from this board, or at laest from what iw as told, was that american cars use bigger engines to gain more power, whereas other countries use smaller engines and just use engineering to try and get the most out of it....am i right? but what is it about the japanese cars that makes them easier to customize than american cars?? i think the general set up of a car is the same, and universal..

"

Keep in mind that this was a time when American car manufacturers completely dominated the car market within the U.S., before consumers started to really think about build quality and reliability... hence why the Ford Taurus was the best-selling car at the time.

Fast forward to the end of the 20th century. A lot of the crappy domestic cars that were previously the best-sellers start showing their shortcomings, and Japanese cars start getting the recognition they deserve for their attention to fit-and-finish. Honda's Civic And Accord sales are currently dominating the market, followed by the Toyota Camry, so Japanese car manufacturers are starting to re-evaluate whether or not they want to bring over their sports cars again. Although Honda/Acura had their various sporty compacts (Honda Civic Si, Honda Prelude Type-SH, Acura Integra GS-R and Type R), none of them were really sports cars. In addition, Mitsubishi had killed off the turbocharged Eclipses and replaced them with a more traditionally American setup... a larger displacement engine with more cylinders. But by this time, Mitsubishi's Lancer Evolution VII was released overseas and various American journalists raved about it, and Mitsubishi officials hinted that they would keep the U.S. in mind when creating the Evo VIII. (The VII didn't meet U.S. bumper standards.) Honda started selling the S2000, which a lot of people praised for its handling and insane 9000 rpm redline.

However, I personally attribute the revival of Japanese sports cars to Subaru for taking a gamble and bringing the WRX to U.S. shores. While they expected to sell 10,000 of them in its first year, they sold that many within several months. After its first year, sales had totaled over 24,000, despite its "bug eye" looks that often received criticism. But it was the wild performance that was available for under $24,000 that made it such a hit. This lead to the definite green-lighting of the Evo, which further encouraged Subaru to bring over the WRX STi. But within a year of the WRX's release, we saw new sporty imports costing over $30,000 reach our shores... Nissan 350Z, Infiniti G35 Sports Coupe and Mazda RX-8, all of which have seen lots of success and have paved the way for a lot of exciting upcoming cars that offer more performance but for a bigger pricetag, like the revived Acura NSX, Lexus supercar (codenamed the LF-A), Nissan Skyline GT-R and Toyota SUPRA.

"


so has the quality of american cars changed since then??? i mean, no one really has been buying american cars, but surely, some changes have been made on quality....i guess quality now means fuel efficiency, which is gonna go against he american principle that bigger is better...so now engines are gonna be smaller, what's gonna happen to cars such as the viper, the vette, mustangs, chargers, GTO's, and all those other muscle car remakes?

what was wrong with the camaros and the fire birds? i know they were discontinued, the camaro coming back soon....but was there some engineering fault with them, or were they somewhat well built??


finally, were there EVER any american cars that were considered on the same level as the supras, the skylines, and all those other japanese sports cars?? i dont think we can say the viper is/was since there was a thing about it being an 8.1 liter, v10, yet putting out just 450, or 500 hp....me being car-retarded, i can still tell you that the engineering on that car really isnt that great, if inline 4's and 5 are putting out less than that, but still beating its ass....

 

[tennis_dog]

i cant find deeznuuts's bastard thread with his "opinions on the evo"...i think it got deleted, but that was supposed to be the meat of this thread...too bad...

 

[C.R.Y.]

what gives japanese cars this huge potential?? one thing i came to know from this board, or at laest from what iw as told, was that american cars use bigger engines to gain more power, whereas other countries use smaller engines and just use engineering to try and get the most out of it....am i right? but what is it about the japanese cars that makes them easier to customize than american cars?? i think the general set up of a car is the same, and universal..

well, engineering like you said gives japanese cars a huge potential. the tuning is done by computers, and tuning can make the difference between 200hp and 400hp. americans prefer getting a bigger engine. i like big engines 427s and 572s. but i see CI as a shortcut for more power. the japanese prefer to make the best out of the smaller engines. its more complicated, but the result is a higher revving small engine that is fun to drive. example is an older S2000. its only 2.0 liters 250hp with little torque. but it was a fun car to drive because it was lightweight and revved all the way to 9000rpms. its like driving a go kart. im not saying ones better than the other, but it just depends on what you want. would you like a muscle car low end torque and great response along with the ability to make a smoke show whenever you want. or would you want japanese car you can toss around, rev to hell, and still make good power out of it.

so has the quality of american cars changed since then??? i mean, no one really has been buying american cars, but surely, some changes have been made on quality....i guess quality now means fuel efficiency, which is gonna go against he american principle that bigger is better...so now engines are gonna be smaller, what's gonna happen to cars such as the viper, the vette, mustangs, chargers, GTO's, and all those other muscle car remakes?

what was wrong with the camaros and the fire birds? i know they were discontinued, the camaro coming back soon....but was there some engineering fault with them, or were they somewhat well built??

theyll still be around. the people who buy them could care less about gas. otherwise theyd be driving around honda civics and toyota corollas.

the camaro and firebird didnt sell good because gm didnt use their heads and didnt sell enough V6s. the V6 cars were the ones that really supported the models. look at mustangs. it isnt the cobras making money for the GTs. its the V6 versions.

finally, were there EVER any american cars that were considered on the same level as the supras, the skylines, and all those other japanese sports cars?? i dont think we can say the viper is/was since there was a thing about it being an 8.1 liter, v10, yet putting out just 450, or 500 hp....me being car-retarded, i can still tell you that the engineering on that car really isnt that great, if inline 4's and 5 are putting out less than that, but still beating its ass....

there were some american cars considered on the same level. the viper even though it has a big engine is basically a highway king. them engines with turbos can put out 1750rwhp. thats fucking badass considering its a torque monster too, something skylines and supras cant really claim too much. theres supras putting out 1500hp, which is very impressive. but the viper can put out 1500hp and can match that with 1500 in torque. other american thats there with supras are notchback mustangs and grand nationals. both can run 8s and 7s. and they are american. once again, its all preference. would you want a viper putting out 1000hp, or a supra. for me that would be a tough decision


OT: i couldnt care less about the viper putting out only 450hp from 8.0 liters. because it also puts out 500lbft of torque. its like when someone says a ferrari makes the same horsepower as a viper with smaller displacement. thats true, but can the ferrari cruise at 2000rpms as easily as a viper can? nope, cause its not as torquey. youd have to downshift. im not dissing ferraris, but its the truth. its all preference

 

[tennis_dog]

hmm....once again, it comes back to my car....an inexpensive way to increase the torque on my car?

 

[C.R.Y.]

what car do you have?

 

[Jump Off]

I love this arguement, because japaneese cars shit all over american cars. I work in the industry and trust me, american cars suffer from engine or other mechanical failure way faster and at way lower mileage. They are simply built poorly, the manufacturers know this also.

Wow, apperaently I got the wrong idea with this thread :lol:

I don't feel like deleting that so whatever, I'll try to contribute to the real topic and say Turbos are coming back in a big way in the japeneese market, so expect even more power out of tiny engines.

 

[Duke]

^ What do you do?

And yeah, American build quality tends to suck. They're improving now, though. The new 'Vette is good in almost all aspects.

 

[Fataldawg]

I love this arguement, because japaneese cars shit all over american cars. I work in the industry and trust me, american cars suffer from engine or other mechanical failure way faster and at way lower mileage. They are simply built poorly, the manufacturers know this also.

Funny.. I just remembered that my 2nd gen Solara is the 1st Toyota made from I think like 80%+ american parts.. Maybe thats why its only 2 and a half years old, 50,000 miles, and falling apart already! :fury: :fury: :fury:

I do drive it hard though, so im sure thats a factor... but then again I beat the shit outta my old '98 Civic (I had 200,000+ miles when i traded it in for the Solara in late '03.. yup.. 200,000+.. It was my sisters the 1st couple years who commuted 3 and a half hours a day, then when she sold it it to me I drove from NC to NJ and back almost every other weekend in the military..Plus I let my roommate at the time use it alot) Never had to replace the tranny or anything major, and still ran good and quiet when i gave it to the dealer..

Now i'm at 50,000 with the Solara and I notice I've lost ALOT of power.. And I get all the maintenence done thats needed.. I've had to get the stock cd player fixed TWICE (and its starting to act up again), my sunroof gets stuck, the bulbs that light up my AC and temp are dead, my starter is stalling once in awhile, my trunk gets stuck sometimes when i open it, and my shocks are already shit..

I will NEVER buy another Solara..

 

[C.R.Y.]

I love this arguement, because japaneese cars shit all over american cars. I work in the industry and trust me, american cars suffer from engine or other mechanical failure way faster and at way lower mileage. They are simply built poorly, the manufacturers know this also.

Wow, apperaently I got the wrong idea with this thread :lol:

I don't feel like deleting that so whatever, I'll try to contribute to the real topic and say Turbos are coming back in a big way in the japeneese market, so expect even more power out of tiny engines.

you do realize that now most japanese cars are built in america or have parts from america right?

 

[DeeezNuuuts83]

so has the quality of american cars changed since then??? i mean, no one really has been buying american cars, but surely, some changes have been made on quality....i guess quality now means fuel efficiency, which is gonna go against he american principle that bigger is better...so now engines are gonna be smaller, what's gonna happen to cars such as the viper, the vette, mustangs, chargers, GTO's, and all those other muscle car remakes?

The poorer build quality of American cars made in the 1990s is showing now, hence the loosening of the Big Three's grip on the car market (which is also why Ford and GM need to offer special pricing to sucker people into buying their products). American automakers realize this, hence the efforts in raising standards. And by quality, we don't necessarily speak of fuel efficiency, we're referring more to how well the car was put together and how much thought was put into its creation. However, the musclecars will ALWAYS be around, thanks to the influence of the older generation of Americans who grew up with them. These were the cars they admired in their youth, and as aging senior citizens they marvel at the nameplates (Corvette, Camaro, Mustang, etc.) and will continue to purchase them well into their old age. However, this is strictly an American fascination, which is why people outside of North America don't really care about most of our musclecars, knowing that they are just big engines made for easy straight-line speed.

what was wrong with the camaros and the fire birds? i know they were discontinued, the camaro coming back soon....but was there some engineering fault with them, or were they somewhat well built??

As I mentioned before, those cars you mentioned were all about straight-line speed and nothing else. I've driven a few V-8 musclecars, and they definitely have torquey engines, but they handle and stop like the Titanic due to their chassis, weight distribution and suspension. Only the Mustang had the name recognition and success to survive, despite it sharing the same automotive shortcomings as its better-performing competitors. (The Camaro typically outperformed the Mustang, based on numbers.)

finally, were there EVER any american cars that were considered on the same level as the supras, the skylines, and all those other japanese sports cars?? i dont think we can say the viper is/was since there was a thing about it being an 8.1 liter, v10, yet putting out just 450, or 500 hp....me being car-retarded, i can still tell you that the engineering on that car really isnt that great, if inline 4's and 5 are putting out less than that, but still beating its ass....

The Viper engine is a given, but then again, it has a ridiculous starting point (8.0-liter V-10), and it's not really an accessible car. As mentioned in another thread, the supercharged V-8 from the Mustang Cobra has a pretty strong block and typically receives the turbo treatment to get the best numbers. While I'm not too familiar with the specifics, I remember the 5.0-liter V-8 from older Mustangs (the late '80s/early '90s models) being a commonly modified engine. However, I don't know enough about these to say that they're on the same level as the Japanese motors we talk about.

i cant find deeznuuts's bastard thread with his "opinions on the evo"...i think it got deleted, but that was supposed to be the meat of this thread...too bad...

You didn't look hard enough. Here it is:
http://www.streethop.com/forum/thread158483.html
But I ask that you don't go back and quote every single thing we said, this is a new thread. If you have questions about statements made there, quote it there.

 

[Jump Off]

you do realize that now most japanese cars are built in america or have parts from america right?

Untrue. Most parts come from Japan. Although they are built in America. Its not just that, Japaneese engineering is better, better prices, higher quality interiors, etc.



Duke, I am a Tech.

 

[tennis_dog]

But I ask that you don't go back and quote every single thing we said, this is a new thread. If you have questions about statements made there, quote it there.

yeah. i was gonna do just that...

CRY, i have a 94 ES 300.....

i still gotta post pics of it...

what pics should i post in my case, since im def. gonna have questions in other threads about the car.... should i take engine shots as well??
i was just thinkin, front, back and sides...just let me know...

the mustang is the only Ford that eludes the "fix or repair daily joke" then? i never really thought much about mustangs.... how weird am I?? the person i really i dont get along with has the two mustangs i mentioned elsewhere...the 04 mutsang, and i dunno what year, cobra....so guess what car i really despise?? yup..cobras and mustangs....no real reason...i just hold retarded grudges like that.... i also have something against evos too

what makes american muscles handle like barges?? and is there a way to change this??? i know my beloved GTO suffers from a weight problem....but lets say a mustang or a camaro, etc......what's responsible for this?? suspension??? shocks?? another part of the car i have no fucking clue what it's function is??


how do i increase torque on my car, btw?:horny:


" And yeah, American build quality tends to suck. They're improving now, though. The new 'Vette is good in almost all aspects."

is that and the viper the only good cars from america then?

 

[C.R.Y.]

yeah. i was gonna do just that...

CRY, i have a 94 ES 300.....

i still gotta post pics of it...

what pics should i post in my case, since im def. gonna have questions in other threads about the car.... should i take engine shots as well??
i was just thinkin, front, back and sides...just let me know...

the mustang is the only Ford that eludes the "fix or repair daily joke" then? i never really thought much about mustangs.... how weird am I?? the person i really i dont get along with has the two mustangs i mentioned elsewhere...the 04 mutsang, and i dunno what year, cobra....so guess what car i really despise?? yup..cobras and mustangs....no real reason...i just hold retarded grudges like that.... i also have something against evos too

what makes american muscles handle like barges?? and is there a way to change this??? i know my beloved GTO suffers from a weight problem....but lets say a mustang or a camaro, etc......what's responsible for this?? suspension??? shocks?? another part of the car i have no fucking clue what it's function is??


how do i increase torque on my car, btw?:horny:


" And yeah, American build quality tends to suck. They're improving now, though. The new 'Vette is good in almost all aspects."

is that and the viper the only good cars from america then?

well, the normal I/H/E would work. along with a set of cams would definitely help the lex. you should put some work in the gto though. it would respond better to mods. them LS1s and LS2s are fucking beasty. a simple head and cam mods, along with I/H/E and youre making good power and should put you over 350rwhp maybe even 400rwhp. you can even add a 100 shot of nitrous if done correctly

the gto does weigh alot, like around 3900lbs IIRC, so itll feel like a boat. the weight will push the car forward through a turn causing it to understeer. some suspension work, a set of sway bars and a better set of tires would help your gto handle better. along with some weight loss, but weight loss on a gto is a taboo. its luxurious inside, i wouldnt wanna rip nothing out lol.

 

[tennis_dog]

lol, what i meant by beloved is if i had 40 grand, i'd prolly buy that car...i dont actually own one.....but it comes stock with 400 horses...atleast the 06 version...so are we lookin at maybe 500 horse, or close to it?? 475, 480?

i do own the lex though.....

what's IHE, and how much would that and some cams cost? i guessing somewhere in the couple hundreds??? well...gotta save up for that... i think the es has 190 hp...im sure it's decreased with time for me...is it around 170, 160?

 

[C.R.Y.]

for a ls2 gto, 450rwhp is reachable.

i/h/e means intake, headers and exhaust. im guessing that would cost somewhere around 600-1000. depends where you look. the cams im not too sure about. my guess is like 200. the es does have 190, but with higher mileage expect that 170.

 

[DeeezNuuuts83]

tennis_dog, I really think you need to stop trying to make your car faster. I don't mean to shit on your parade or anything, but it's just very impractical. For one thing, neither that specific car nor its engine doesn't have strong aftermarket support, and the parts that do exist are probably somewhat pricey and won't net enough extra punch to justify such upgrades. In addition, it was a car that was never intended to be an outstanding performer based on things like its FWD layout, regular automatic transmission, heavy nose, relatively high curb weight, soft suspension, etc. Hypothetically speaking, it could be done, but the lengths to get there are just too great to be a realistic, sensible option. You'd be better off saving up for another car.

 

[C.R.Y.]

it would be easier to trade straight up for an sc300, sc400, or sc430. especially the sc300. its the weaker engine out of the 3, but you can swap in a supra engine, which means 320hp out of a stock engine.

 

[tennis_dog]

well, it's not my car...my dad handed it down, so obviously i cant go out and sell it.....for a new car...you know the requirements...so i gotta do those, the whole college part and everything....but yeah, until then, i'm screwed...

it just feels weird that my car's pick up is so slow....but w/e...i guess i could live with it...

and i do understand that the car isnt supposed to be a monster...i was expecting, you know...400 horses out of an es....but maybe 220+? really, it seems that torque is the important thing...so...maybe an increase in that??

and what exactly is curb weight?

 

[DeeezNuuuts83]

and i do understand that the car isnt supposed to be a monster...i was expecting, you know...400 horses out of an es....but maybe 220+? really, it seems that torque is the important thing...so...maybe an increase in that??

and what exactly is curb weight?

Really, just give up on trying to fix up your ES. Just enjoy the leather interior in what is basically a rebadged Toyota Camry. Just keep researching cars, and when the day comes, you will have enough money to buy the car that you feel suits your wants and needs.

Curb weight (or "kerb weight," if you're reading something written by people overseas) is how much the production car weighs when it is completely empty, meaning without gas or any of that stuff, but with everything it was intended to come with (like the interior and stuff like that).

 

[C.R.Y.]

i wouldnt modify it, cause its a luxury car. thats cars meant to be plush so i would wanna make it look better.you should go simple like i would. lower, put some nice rims and a sound system. check this to see what rims you like.

http://www.tirerack.com/upgrade_gar...us&autoModel=ES300&autoYear=1994&autoModClar=