So..... Muhammad was a pedofile

[ImmortalTech]

Muhammad slept with a 9 year old girl, that justifies the label pedophile. That is a fact, it is not offensive.

I quoted Islamic scripture.

In page 2 of this discussion Jokerman addressed the pedophile claim by using the actual definition of a pedophile.

I took a different approach and addressed the claim, using the same source scriptures u had originally quoted.

Others also provided additional explanations refuting the original claim.

In either case I dont see why you continue calling him a pedophile, regardless of if u agree with him consummating marriage with a 9 year old or not. Different times, different experiences, different methods of evaluation. It's obvious that some things that took place back then will not sit right with our current understanding of the world around us.

 

[Casey]

Stop trying to make everything about so and so vs. Islam. It isn't that at all.

And therein lies a lot of the problem. You make a perfectly valid criticism, satire (in the case of south park), or insightful documentary (theo van gogh) and all of a sudden you're some sort of infidel who hates Islam.

I don't hate Islam any more than I hate any other religion, and I do have friends that are Muslim.

But you can be damn sure I hate these fundamentalist wackjobs that take everything written in their precious book so fucking literally, and don't stop to think that logically, none of it is even relevant to modern society. Those people can go fuck themselves.

 

[Jurhum]

In the Islamic religion, Jesus is also a Prophet. Why are Muslims ok with ridicule towards Jesus if he was also a very important Prophet?

Muslims are not OK with ridiculing any prophet. No difference. However, because the prophet Mohamed is the last prophet, Muslims are more attached to him than other prophets.

 

[Jurhum]

And therein lies a lot of the problem. You make a perfectly valid criticism, satire (in the case of south park), or insightful documentary (theo van gogh) and all of a sudden you're some sort of infidel who hates Islam.

I don't hate Islam any more than I hate any other religion, and I do have friends that are Muslim.

But you can be damn sure I hate these fundamentalist wackjobs that take everything written in their precious book so fucking literally, and don't stop to think that logically, none of it is even relevant to modern society. Those people can go fuck themselves.

Since you are sooooo tough here, why dont you go to the nearest Islamic center and tell them that? Spare me the headache please.

 

[Casey]

In page 2 of this discussion Jokerman addressed the pedophile claim by using the actual definition of a pedophile.

I took a different approach and addressed the claim, using the same source scriptures u had originally quoted.

Others also provided additional explanations refuting the original claim.

In either case I dont see why you continue calling him a pedophile, regardless of if u agree with him consummating marriage with a 9 year old or not. Different times, different experiences, different methods of evaluation. It's obvious that some things that took place back then will not sit right with our current understanding of the world around us.

I happen to agree with Rukas on this issue, and it's entirely unrelated to my disgust at religion (although it's related in the sense that I laugh at the fact the defenders of the religion can even begin to try and justify it)

If you have a sexual interest in a pre-pubescent child, that makes you a pedophile. There's no two ways about it. Read up on some basic human biology. Read up on how hormones work. Read up on pheromones, and how the human body is hardwired to develop sexual interest in another human ONLY after the body begins to emit pheremones at puberty.

Even if you grew up never leaving the house and never saw a TV or newspaper article or other people, you would still KNOW that sexual attraction towards children is wrong.

It's not something anyone, except pedophiles, have to be told, because having that attraction is a mental disorder. Seriously, do some psychology research into "philia" and how the term works, whether it is pediphilia, necrophilia, etc. These are mental disorders.

Pedophilia is disgusting and criminalized because in order for the pedophile to serve his own sexual needs, there is always a victim.

But just because it might have been more common in those days doesn't make it right and it doesn't make Aisha any less of a victim.

Just because SOME people think (incorrectly) that this man was somehow "blessed" or "holy" doesn't make it right, it doesn't make Aisha less of a victim, and it doesn't make Muhammad not a pedophile either.

Just calling it how it is.

Since you are sooooo tough here, why dont you go to the nearest Islamic center and tell them that? Spare me the headache please.

I have. On many occasions. I even turned some into atheists through the power of simple logic, and guess what? They're much happier and more successful now.

 

[Rukas]

In page 2 of this discussion Jokerman addressed the pedophile claim by using the actual definition of a pedophile.

I took a different approach and addressed the claim, using the same source scriptures u had originally quoted.

Others also provided additional explanations refuting the original claim.

In either case I dont see why you continue calling him a pedophile, regardless of if u agree with him consummating marriage with a 9 year old or not. Different times, different experiences, different methods of evaluation. It's obvious that some things that took place back then will not sit right with our current understanding of the world around us.

My point was that when this thread was created, that was the stance I had. The thread title and meaning behind it is what was brought into question.

As explained by Casey Rain in his last post, myself and I believe _carmi before, the definition stands.

Would changing the title to "Muhammad was a pedophile by modern scientific standards" sit better with you? I certainly respect YOU enough ImmortalTech to meet you at that cross road if it will make you more comfortable because my intention was never to offend. All you have to do is ask and I will edit it.

 

[Rukas]

Since you are sooooo tough here, why dont you go to the nearest Islamic center and tell them that? Spare me the headache please.

I dont think Casey Rain is suicidal, he knows if he went to "the nearest Islamic center" and told them that they would murder him. That doesn't however invalidate his point or make that Islamic center correct or justified in their actions.

See this is a perfect example of trying to force people to stop criticism using fear and terror.

 

[Jokerman]

It's like I have a friend that thinks let say my dad is evil. Everytime I see him he insults my dad. Or he goes around and prints caricutures about my dad that are offensive. You expect me to stay friends with him? Or you expect me to not at least get upset and angry, even hostile with him?

I expect you to find out if he has any valid reason to think your Dad is evil. A lot of nonreligious people think that religion is bad or evil, especially one as fundamentalist as Islam. They say it can lead a believer to kill in its name or condone sex with a child. Are you asking yourself if that’s a valid argument? Do you as a believer care? Can you as a believer care, or do you just think, well, that’s the way we Muslims are. If they can't see it, then it's their problem, not ours? Well, the modern world will not tolerate death threats to people who draw cartoons. That’s your problem. The Islamic hostility to modernization, globalization, democratization, and freedom of expression affects the stability of not only the Middle East but the whole world. While other world leaders push education, your religious leaders build up their legitimacy by pushing religious conflict. The modern world will not tolerate that, and that's your problem too.

If you hold something so dear to you and believe in it. You will do anything to protect it.

But you need to ask more than one question. Not allowing your Prophet to be insulted might be critical for the dignity of every Muslim in the modern world. But what sort of education you offer your kids, what sort of economy you build, and what sort of rule of law you establish will also determine your dignity and standing in the modern world. Can anyone point to a greater offender of Muslim dignity than Islamic law itself? For a modern example of the kind of society that can be fashioned out of an exclusive reliance upon the tenants of Islam, simply recall what Afghanistan was like under the Taliban.

All reasonable men and women have a common enemy. And it’s not Islam. It’s simply faith.

 

[yak pac fatal]

So is killing. It may seem very extreme to you but not to others.

killers got chemical imbalances. what does that say about the people who wanna kill the dudes from south park? are they dedicated to the religion or corrupted or straight up crazy?

 

[Rukas]

^^ If I believed I had 40 virgins waiting for me in heaven if I killed someone who doesnt believe in what I believe in and I was taught that murder was fine and justified and my Prophet did it all the time, I'd probably do it too. If I "knew" this to be "true."

Thankfully I am a modern human being and know this is wrong.

 

[Jokerman]

^^ If I believed I had 40 virgins waiting for me in heaven

40! Casey said it was a million. I'm glad I didn't do something I might regret. Plus, it might be forty 80-year-old-looking virgins. They died virgins because they were kept covered in a blanket all their lives and now they are yours.

 

[Rukas]

40! Casey said it was a million. I'm glad I didn't do something I might regret. Plus, it might be forty 80-year-old-looking virgins. They died virgins because they were kept covered in a blanket all their lives and now they are yours.

Considering the fact Aisha was 9 years old when she lost hers, Im guessing they are 8 years old... Oh and apparently young naked boys fan and serve you Jesus-Juice too!

 

[ill-matic]

And therein lies a lot of the problem. You make a perfectly valid criticism, satire (in the case of south park), or insightful documentary (theo van gogh) and all of a sudden you're some sort of infidel who hates Islam.

I don't hate Islam any more than I hate any other religion, and I do have friends that are Muslim.

But you can be damn sure I hate these fundamentalist wackjobs that take everything written in their precious book so fucking literally, and don't stop to think that logically, none of it is even relevant to modern society. Those people can go fuck themselves.

personally, i think you're have a vendetta against all forms of religion, and you're naturally inclined to be very committed to your own point of view, to the point where you only see things from your own perspective.

this is something i copied from the Islam vs South Park thread which addresses the issue of the limits of satire, humour, etc, when it is blurred with just being offensive.

they knew it would generate controversey. they knew the extremists would be threatening. though most muslims aren't, but still have to accept this sort of ridicule.

i agree with jurhum's video. Some radio jockey in Australia said that some fat b-grade celebrity here would have more chance of losing weight "in a concentration camp" or some shit. i dont have the exact quote, but EVERYONE got angry with him because his comments were considered "anti - semitic" and "insensitive". yet, it's those SAME people who go on and on and on and on about "freedom of expression" bla fucking bla when it comes to ridiculing Islam. absolute hypocrisy to the point that it makes me sick. give me a break.

another example - on some "variety" show here in Australia recently, a group of 5 dudes painted themselves black because they were doing an impersonation of the jackson 5 as part of a 'talent show' peice. harry connick jnr was a guest judge, and he labelled the act disgusting because it was "racist" and how "that type of stuff wouldnt be accepted back home (america)", and there was this whole controversey. but when it comes to ridiculing islam, ohhhhh it's a matter of freedom of speech and we could do what the fuck we wanna do. how about some parity here.

my point is - some things should just not be joked about. it's not about freedom of expression - it's solely about respect. do we make jokes about the holocaust? do we make jokes about blacks being lynched? do we make jokes about jews which could be seen as "anti-semitic"? When prime minister Berlusconi from Italy said that Obama had "a nice tan" as a 'joke' there was an uproar because it was deemed racially insensitive. But waiiiiiiit, what about freedom of expression? Where's the freedom of speech there? But we can take a giant dump on a religion followed by 1.2 billion people, and that comes under our freedom to express ourselves, right? "How dare you stop me from insulting you like that, I have a RIGHT to do this!". Give me a fucking break man.

this shit is very upsetting to read, how lopsided peoples viewpoints are. the only rational response i've seen has been from Preach, who at least has shown an UNDERSTANDING of the issue from the Muslim point of view instead of blocking his ears and yelling "i have freedom of speech i can say whatever i want and if you dont like it then go away!!". what kind of a childish reasoning is that.

 

[Rukas]

No one is saying censor yourself. Simply, dont' insult others. That's called respecting people.

You insult me by insisting I have to share you beliefs of who I can criticize or ridicule.

That was a simplified example. However, the Danish newspaper insisted on publishing those hateful cartoons regardless of the fact that it was going to cause more chaos. You can't just insult people and not expect a reaction from them. Whether it is as simple as boycott or as extreme as death.

Death is NOT an acceptable reaction to insult. Never, in any case.

Yeah, if we look into that, we'll find that more death caused to Muslims by the west than the Muslims caused to them. It is a two way street. Don't turn a blind eye to that.

No one is turning a blind eye to anything but two wrongs dont make a right and no one I personally know is advocating killing Muslims for insulting someone, or anyone for simply insulting someone, yet time and time again you do just that.

You socially evloved? You still kill in the name of democracy. How is that any different?

When have I ever killed anyone in the name of democracy? When have I ever killed anyone, period?

Oh wait, I see, you're doing the whole Islam vs. "them" and lumping me in with "them" just like the videos in this thread said you would:

http://www.streethop.com/forum/word...urned-atheist-explains-problem-perfectly.html

Im discussing YOUR personal flawed belief and opinion Jurhum, not "them" or "you" in a plural sense.
Im not responsible for what the US government has done to the Middle East and I have never condoned it. Yet you condone mass killing, torture, pedophilia and raper PERSONALLY which is why I debate YOU in the singular sense. All you can do to defend yourself is point to what some unrelated people have done.

Islam never says Jesus was a liar. Jesus is actually one of the greatest prophets in Islam. So you're argument holds no merit.

Islam says that what the Bible and Jesus said in the Bible (being the Son of God) is not true, thus calling him a liar. So yes, my argument does hold merit. Islam is allowed to call Jesus a liar but no one else is allowed to call Muhammad a pedophile or criticize him in any way?

 

[ImmortalTech]

If you have a sexual interest in a pre-pubescent child, that makes you a pedophile. There's no two ways about it.

Thats under the modern assumption that marriage and sexual interests are highly correlated.

 

[Preach]

From an instinctive point of view, when a woman menstruates, she is ready for cock.

The fact that we don't simply allow this has to do with our advances in psychology, our knowledge of how sexual relations and emotions are attached, and that if a girl is to grow up to be considered "normal" by society, she should not be exposed to sexual intercourse until at a certain age. All of this has been defined by us, and the fact that you grew up on it heavily biases your perception of the concept of pedophilia.

She was 9 though. So I'm not saying that I personally don't find it sickening as fuck. But coupled with the notion that sex and marriage may have a different correlation in the Middle East (which we know for a fact it does as most families marry away their daughter for monetary reasons), and most certainly may have had back in the days when Muhammad lived, I feel forced to suggest that pedophilia is something that was born out of a compassion that we developed because we've been a free people. Not because it makes any biological sense, because from a raw, nature point of view, a reproductive female is ready to be fertilized. If not for our medicinal advances that helps us live for a hundred years, having a child at a very young age may have been necessary in order to stay alive long enough to raise the child. Didn't people generally live until they were 30-40 back in the days of Muhammad?

I'm not saying it's okay for a grown man to have sex with a 9 year old today, but you weren't there back then, and you don't know what actually happened. And you don't understand it from the perspective of a Muslim no matter how hard you try. Neither do I. I just reserve myself from being too judgmental because I do understand that my information and viewpoints are individual. Strong opinions have a possibility of being wrong but spreading love and understanding is never a bad thing.

 

[Casey]

Thats under the modern assumption that marriage and sexual interests are highly correlated.

I didn't say anything about marriage. He fucked her, therefore he had an sexual interest in fucking her otherwise he would not have wanted to do it, and if he did not want to do it, well I don't think I have to explain male anatomy to you, but he wouldn't have been able to get it up.

Fact is, his dick got hard for a 9 year old, and since the human body is hardwired for that not to happen because of the lack of pheromones being emitted, that makes him a pedophile.

Like I said, you can try and find excuses and justifications as much as you want but it doesn't make a difference.

 

[ImmortalTech]

As far as my understanding goes (and it's not too far, I can admit that). A man is capable of having an erection without sexual interest. For example, (i dont know the actual term for this) but what about 'morning wood'. Also many men have intercourse with partners they have little to no sexual interest in. Maybe they subconsciously do, but think they dont or something.. I dont really know..

.. I do not have a strong enough understanding on that topic to argue your point in a scientific manner. And I'm not the type of individual to run my mouth off about things I do not know, and argue for the sake of arguing.

Both sides have expressed their thoughts and opinions on this topic, and I guess it only makes sense to leave it at that. Unless someone has further points to add.

 

[Chronic]

Pedophiles are attracted to prepubescent children. If she was menstruating she was no longer a prepubescent child. That would make him a child molestor, not a pedophile. If you take God out of the picture then you can chalk it up to the era he lived in. We're animals and if a girl starts her menstrual cycle it means she's ready to have sex. I'm glad we've progressed to a point where we look at age, not the menstrual cycle but having sex with a girl going through puberty does not equal pedophilia. Placing God in the picture does make it odd that He'd encourage/approve the consummation. Jurhum can you shed some light or offer your insight? I didn't read all 24 pages so maybe you already have.

 

[Rukas]

Pedophiles are attracted to prepubescent children. If she was menstruating she was no longer a prepubescent child. That would make him a child molestor, not a pedophile. If you take God out of the picture then you can chalk it up to the era he lived in. We're animals and if a girl starts her menstrual cycle it means she's ready to have sex. I'm glad we've progressed to a point where we look at age, not the menstrual cycle but having sex with a girl going through puberty does not equal pedophilia. Placing God in the picture does make it odd that He'd encourage/approve the consummation. Jurhum can you shed some light or offer your insight? I didn't read all 24 pages so maybe you already have.

I still dont see any conclusive proof that she was menstruating. I kind of view it as hopeful thinking by Muslims.

The extent of Jurhum's insight starts and stops with "he is allowed to do what he wants, he is the Prophet."