So..... Muhammad was a pedofile

[Sebastian]

As many have said, is it really freedom of speech when the intention is to provoke more than 1 billion people world wide? Why is freedom of speech more precious than freedom of religion?

I dont know if its generally more prescious.

However, its always easier to explain these abstract questions with the help of examples. Take the cartoon example. We, as a culture ( "the west" ), decided in a long process, that this kind of criticism (drawing cartoons) is perfectly fine. Even if its about holy figures like Jesus or Muhammad.

Now what do you want "us" to do? Stop doing it because the other side, outside of our own culture, does not want us to do it? See, i know there are not always clear boundaries and our culture itself is not homogeneous. Nonetheless i would bet there is an overwhelming agreement on our side about that kind of criticism being perfectly fine.

Now the other group can disagree with us for all that i care but the moment they threaten "us" is the point where they cross a line that is not acceptable. We are not physically hurting anybody by drawing cartoons. I dont even think we rubbed it in the muslim worlds face. Some danish newspaper printed it. Thats about it.

 

[Jurhum]

I dont know if its generally more prescious.

However, its always easier to explain these abstract questions with the help of examples. Take the cartoon example. We, as a culture ( "the west" ), decided in a long process, that this kind of criticism (drawing cartoons) is perfectly fine. Even if its about holy figures like Jesus or Muhammad.

Now what do you want "us" to do? Stop doing it because the other side, outside of our own culture, does not want us to do it? See, i know there are not always clear boundaries and our culture itself is not homogeneous. Nonetheless i would bet there is an overwhelming agreement on our side about that kind of criticism being perfectly fine.

Now the other group can disagree with us for all that i care but the moment they threaten "us" is the point where they cross a line that is not acceptable. We are not physically hurting anybody by drawing cartoons. I dont even think we rubbed it in the muslim worlds face. Some danish newspaper printed it. Thats about it.

That's where the problem lies. In the belief. You don't belief in the prophet. We do. We also will do anything in our power to punish anyone that insults him. That's very simple. If you can't see it. Then it's your problem. Not ours.

Whether you agree with it or don't is not the issue. The thing is you don't insult people. People won't threaten you. Therefore, we build respect among people of different faith.

It's like I have a friend that thinks let say my dad is evil. Everytime I see him he insults my dad. Or he goes around and prints caricutures about my dad that are offensive. You expect me to stay friends with him? Or you expect me to not at least get upset and angry, even hostile with him?

It's human nature. If you hold something so dear to you and believe in it. You will do anything to protect it. That goes for Muslims. We did not do anything to cause this hatred to be spawn towards us. Some Islamphobes decided it was acceptable to insult the Prophet. Then the newspaper said we will print it all over the country, and that is what incited everything.

As I said, if you look at the clip I posted in the thread in OB titled Islam vs south park i think you'll see the double standard that show host has when it comes to Muslims. Why should it be OK for Muslims to be insulted but not when it comes to Jews?

Again as I said, anyone can make caricatures about Muslims for all I care, but the prophet is a red line that can never be crossed. At Least, for us Muslims. And, It will be this way whether you like it or not.

Here is the clip again.

 

[Sebastian]

That's where the problem lies. In the belief. You don't belief in the prophet. We do. We also will do anything in our power to punish anyone that insults him. That's very simple. If you can't see it. Then it's your problem. Not ours.

Is that really the best way to go, seriously?

How is criticising something or someone with words on the same scale as hurting or killing someone? Could you explain that to me? Dont you see a disproportion there?

Whether you agree with it or don't is not the issue. The thing is you don't insult people. People won't threaten you. Therefore, we build respect among people of different faith.

Ok, here is the deal:

People feel insulted by different things. There is no world wide agreement on whats insulting and whats not. So, whos got to decide where that line is that you dont cross? Right, each culture has to decide this for their own "territory", right?

Now lets say there are just two sides. Yours and mine. Why dont you just live your life on your side of the fence and i live mine on the other side? Or do you have a better solution?

It's like I have a friend that thinks let say my dad is evil. Everytime I see him he insults my dad. Or he goes around and prints caricutures about my dad that are offensive. You expect me to stay friends with him? Or you expect me to not at least get upset and angry, even hostile with him?

Not really friend material i would say. And yeah, you could get upset, sure. What i wouldsuggest is to get rid of him in your life and in regards to the printing of caricatures i would suggest to look into what you could do legally.

 

[Jurhum]

Is that really the best way to go, seriously?

How is criticising something or someone with words on the same scale as hurting or killing someone? Could you explain that to me? Dont you see a disproportion there?

I didn't say you can't criticise Islam. I never and would never say that. You can criticise what you don't like about Islam. However, you have no right to be offensive.

 

[Sebastian]

I didn't say you can't criticise Islam. I never and would never say that. You can criticise what you don't like about Islam. However, you have no right to be offensive.

Does the same rule apply to criticising Muhammad or what he has done? No, right?

Plus, would you be so kind to answer my other question? Thank you.

 

[Jurhum]

Does the same rule apply to criticising Muhammad or what he has done? No, right?

Plus, would you be so kind to answer my other question? Thank you.

You can question anything. We'll provide you with answers. Whether you believe or don't will be up to you.

Which other question you're talking about?

 

[Sebastian]

Ok, here is the deal:

People feel insulted by different things. There is no world wide agreement on whats insulting and whats not. So, whos got to decide where that line is that you dont cross? Right, each culture has to decide this for their own "territory", right?

Now lets say there are just two sides. Yours and mine. Why dont you just live your life on your side of the fence and i live mine on the other side? Or do you have a better solution?

This one. In regards to you saying the cartoons were offensive and deserved certain kind of reactions.

 

[Jurhum]

This one. In regards to you saying the cartoons were offensive and deserved certain kind of reactions.

There are certain ways Muslims should've went about it. But, the Danish goverment insisted that it was freedom of speech. That's why it resulted in violence.

It should've been as simple as this.

The newspaper draws those hateful cartoons. They see the uproar. Then they release a statement, we never meant to insult anyone. And, since this is perceived as an insult by Muslims. We will withdraw these cartoons and we apologise.

That would've ended the whole situation. But, instead they insisted on publishing them again and again. That's why people took it upon themselves to go after the cartoonists and the newspaper. And also, the boycott Denmark suffered from such actions.

 

[vg4030]

Yeah, you skipped his though?

He wasnt claiming to take the high road like you, then blatantly doing the opposite

 

[Jurhum]

He wasnt claiming to take the high road like you, then blatantly doing the opposite

I merely replied to one of his insults after he have specifically mentioned me.

 

[Duke]

Well, it's hard to explain if you don't really see it. Insulting someone means you've directly attacked that person. Have you seen Muslims riot against anyone making crazy cartoons of Osama bin laden? Insulting Osama bin laden? Of course not. We can accept any ridicule to any person living right now. However, we will never accept any insults to the prophet. As I said, being a Muslim is more than just a spiritual feeling. You follow a way of life form A to Z. Everything in Islam teaches you how to live your life. From sleeping to waking up to entering the bathroom to existing etc. It's not just a simple I believe in God or Allah and that's it.

This is besides the point. No one is in a position to judge whether your own ideals weigh heavier than those of the next person. You could never claim your love for Muhammad is more intense than my love for the ideals of equality and democracy, just to name something.

It's way more than that. Muslims cherish and love the prophet more than their own families. And, insulting him in that way is extremely unacceptable and poses as a direct attack to the core beliefs of Islam.

We've long since established it's offensive. The problem of the matter is you condone physical acts of murder and terror in retaliation of an offensive cartoon or film. Not only that, you seem to back away in such a position that you only reserve this right for muslims because "you love Muhammad so much and we heathens could never understand how deep that goes".

Surely you can see my problem with this.

As many have said, is it really freedom of speech when the intention is to provoke more than 1 billion people world wide? Why is freedom of speech more precious than freedom of religion?

Yes it is. It might double as "abuse of freedom of speech" but at it's heart it's still freedom of speech. ESPECIALLY in the context of a political cartoon.

Do I have to insult anyone to make a point? Do I have to pick on a certain group to make a point? No. I can exercise freedom of expression without insulting religion.

No, you don't have to. You don't have to kill anyone who does either.

 

[Rukas]

A parody? Nah, I dont bother to answer anything Rukas or caisy pain post. They are on an Islamic bashing spree.

Show me where I have bashed Islam? All I have done is quoted scripture and called YOU lowbrow. In the mean time I have praised ImmortalTech. So how have I bashed a whole Religion? Where?

 

[Rukas]

Well, it's hard to explain if you don't really see it. Insulting someone means you've directly attacked that person. Have you seen Muslims riot against anyone making crazy cartoons of Osama bin laden? Insulting Osama bin laden? Of course not. We can accept any ridicule to any person living right now. However, we will never accept any insults to the prophet.

In the Islamic religion, Jesus is also a Prophet. Why are Muslims ok with ridicule towards Jesus if he was also a very important Prophet?

 

[Jurhum]

Show me where I have bashed Islam? All I have done is quoted scripture and called YOU lowbrow. In the mean time I have praised ImmortalTech. So how have I bashed a whole Religion? Where?

Do you even see the title? You said you quoted the Quran when obviously u never did. You've labeled me everything you could. I didn't even bother. Will not bother either.

So yeah, u weren't being offensive at all.

 

[Rukas]

First of all, and i think ive said it before in this thread, i do think the way the thread was started for example, was done in a wrong way. The intention was clearly a provocative and insulting one.

Provocative yes, I wanted to start a discussion. Insulting no, that is why I passed no judgment, I simply quoted Islamic scripture. I didn't even really say anything to begin with or discuss with anyone until lyrical start denied his own scripture and Jurhum said it was acceptable for a grown man to sleep with a 9 year old child and condoned genocide, murder, rape, etc. I still havent insulted or passed judgment on Islam as a whole, simply Jurhum and people who share his attitude, which I didnt know he had until HE posted. I dont understand how quoting scripture Muslims live and die by, can be insulting.

 

[Rukas]

Whether you agree with it or don't is not the issue. The thing is you don't insult people. People won't threaten you. Therefore, we build respect among people of different faith.

The thing that you fail to see, is that having to censor ourselves IS insulting to us. Having to change our lives to accommodate other people IS insulting to us. Knowing that people come to our country for better lives and then continue to oppress themselves and try to oppress us IS insulting to us.

It's like I have a friend that thinks let say my dad is evil. Everytime I see him he insults my dad. Or he goes around and prints caricutures about my dad that are offensive. You expect me to stay friends with him? Or you expect me to not at least get upset and angry, even hostile with him?

I expect you to say that he's not your friend and move on with your life, not MURDER him.

It's human nature. If you hold something so dear to you and believe in it. You will do anything to protect it. That goes for Muslims. We did not do anything to cause this hatred to be spawn towards us.

If there is hatred towards Islam now (not from me), then I imagine it is from people who are upset about 9/11, the Bali bombings, the murders in the name of Muhammad, the fact women are oppressed, children are molested, women (Muslim and western) are raped and beat in communities, and people like you have narrow minded opinions and justifications.

Why should it be OK for Muslims to be insulted but not when it comes to Jews?

It shouldnt, it's not, and I dont think anyone here is saying that it is.

Again as I said, anyone can make caricatures about Muslims for all I care, but the prophet is a red line that can never be crossed. At Least, for us Muslims. And, It will be this way whether you like it or not.

So punish yourselves and not people that dont share your opinion. Christians believe in Jesus, Buddhists in Buddah, Hindus in a bunch of Gods. You dont see them killing people over it, not anymore, we socially evolved past that which is the point I was making, YOU have not.

Let's say I believe in Jesus, by it's very nature Islam insults Jesus and what he said in the Bible by not agreeing with the account in the Christian Bible and thus calling Jesus a liar. So you are insulting my God. Can I kill you now? Of course NOT! Because we have grown past that, when will you?

You're the annoying kid sitting at the adult table throwing his food around and crying when he doesnt get a glass of cocacola, of course we're not going to like you.

 

[Rukas]

Do you even see the title? You said you quoted the Quran when obviously u never did. You've labeled me everything you could. I didn't even bother. Will not bother either.

So yeah, u weren't being offensive at all.

Muhammad slept with a 9 year old girl, that justifies the label pedophile. That is a fact, it is not offensive.

I quoted Islamic scripture.

I haven't called you everything I could, I called you low brow, ignorant, uninformed, unevolved, etc etc. I havent gone by and called you names like you did me, I backed up every name and statement. You ARE low brow. Regardless, I am not attacking Islam, I have not called Islam names, I have not called for the extermination of Islam (like you did of Israel [not that I support Israel but I do not support genocide either]). So dont go around saying I am "bashing" Islam or Muslims when I have done no such thing.

I am fine with Islam, I think ImmortalTech is an upstanding human being and thus Muslim as are many others. I think YOU and ignorant people like YOU, of ALL religions, are idiots and damaging to the lives of others. So no, I am not bashing Islam, I am bashing IGNORANCE.

Stop trying to make everything about so and so vs. Islam. It isn't that at all.

 

[yak pac fatal]

Again as I said, anyone can make caricatures about Muslims for all I care, but the prophet is a red line that can never be crossed. At Least, for us Muslims. And, It will be this way whether you like it or not.

vanilla disagrees

do you understand that not everyone has the same view point as you?

it maybe very disrespectful in your eyes but to some he just a regular person that can be made fun of.

dont catch feelings, keep it moving

 

[Jurhum]

The thing that you fail to see, is that having to censor ourselves IS insulting to us. Having to change our lives to accommodate other people IS insulting to us. Knowing that people come to our country for better lives and then continue to oppress themselves and try to oppress us IS insulting to us.

No one is saying censor yourself. Simply, dont' insult others. That's called respecting people.

I expect you to say that he's not your friend and move on with your life, not MURDER him.

That was a simplified example. However, the Danish newspaper insisted on publishing those hateful cartoons regardless of the fact that it was going to cause more chaos. You can't just insult people and not expect a reaction from them. Whether it is as simple as boycott or as extreme as death.

If there is hatred towards Islam now (not from me), then I imagine it is from people who are upset about 9/11, the Bali bombings, the murders in the name of Muhammad, the fact women are oppressed, children are molested, women (Muslim and western) are raped and beat in communities, and people like you have narrow minded opinions and justifications.

Yeah, if we look into that, we'll find that more death caused to Muslims by the west than the Muslims caused to them. It is a two way street. Don't turn a blind eye to that.

So punish yourselves and not people that dont share your opinion. Christians believe in Jesus, Buddhists in Buddah, Hindus in a bunch of Gods. You dont see them killing people over it, not anymore, we socially evolved past that which is the point I was making, YOU have not.

You socially evloved? You still kill in the name of democracy. How is that any different?

And no one has the right to insult any religion regardless of their beliefs.

Let's say I believe in Jesus, by it's very nature Islam insults Jesus and what he said in the Bible by not agreeing with the account in the Christian Bible and thus calling Jesus a liar. So you are insulting my God. Can I kill you now? Of course NOT! Because we have grown past that, when will you?

Islam never says Jesus was a liar. Jesus is actually one of the greatest prophets in Islam. So you're argument holds no merit.

You're the annoying kid sitting at the adult table throwing his food around and crying when he doesnt get a glass of cocacola, of course we're not going to like you.

Yeah sure.

 

[Jurhum]

vanilla disagrees

do you understand that not everyone has the same view point as you?

it maybe very disrespectful in your eyes but to some he just a regular person that can be made fun of.

dont catch feelings, keep it moving

So is killing. It may seem very extreme to you but not to others.