neither side are ignorant, they have full knowledge of the situation, thus cannot be called ignorant. They are simply making a decision according to what they have seen. But i believe that it takes more courage to say no to the killing of innocent people, it takes more courage to go against your country and stand up for what you believe in. That is what these soldiers have done. It is easy for a soldier armed with tanks to simply follow commands and control a bunch of ill-equipped palestinians, that isn't even a challenge. Courage is standing up for what you believe in and not simply doing what you are told. Alot of the The Israeli soldiers who serve in the occupied territories are either afraid to speak out against their army(in fear of being called anti-nationalist), or just enjoy killing innocent people, in order to serve their beloved Israel.
We Israeli Military Reservists REFUSE To Abuse, Starve, Maim And Kill Palestininians
- Thread starter TecK NeeX
- Start date
well I find it hard to comprehend what these soldiers are doing, why not get the hell outta their and allow these Palestinians to live their lives. Why does Israel continue to build settlements and vow to give back the occupied land at the same time. All they are doing is provoking more attacks, no one wants to live in an occupied Land. Its wrong.
I know I have certain things in my head, they're called moralistic values, they tell me the difference between right and wrong. At the moment they tell me that Israelis shouldn't be occupying land and continuing to punish these innocent Palestinians. Its ashame that these soldiers will do anything for their great Israel even if it means losing their morals. Now thats the reality.
Standing up for what you believe in can certainly be ignorant, if what you believe in is incorrect. These reservists believe that peace can be achieved if the occupation ends. This ignores the fact that the Palestinians have been at war with Israel 20 years longer than the existence of the occupation.
Anyway, you've said in later posts that the Palestinians are innocent and that the IDF is completely amoral. Well is it any wonder you don't agree with me then? Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion. You've demonstrated that you have not read a single thing about the history of the conflict, and your opinion that the Palestinians are "innocent" is, of course, laughably absurd.
Clearly you've demonstrated that standing up for your opinion can be ignorant. In fact, your posts in this thread are prime examples.
Anyway, you've said in later posts that the Palestinians are innocent and that the IDF is completely amoral. Well is it any wonder you don't agree with me then? Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion. You've demonstrated that you have not read a single thing about the history of the conflict, and your opinion that the Palestinians are "innocent" is, of course, laughably absurd.
Clearly you've demonstrated that standing up for your opinion can be ignorant. In fact, your posts in this thread are prime examples.
When i say that the Palestinians are innocent, Im not refering to every single Palestinan, obviously there is terrorists who are guilty of various crimes. But you know that the majority of of Palestinians are not guilty of any crime and are simply being punished without reason. Obviously your gonna say that this has to be done for Israels protection in order to prevent suicide bombings. But Punishing the masses due to the crime of a few terrorists is unfair and illegal. These Palestinians do not deserve to be collectively punished for a crime which they haven't commited and have no control over. And I do believe that what the IDF is doing is wrong and amoral. Alot of these soldiers lose a sense of justice when they begin to serve in Palestine. They should know that this occupation is illegal and needs to be stopped.
Palestinians are not being "punished without reason." A strong majority of them support continuing the intifada. The intifada has been a sustained series of militant attacks over the course of 4 years. Since Palestinian terrorists stop at nothing to murder Israelis, the IDF has to use its military to stop as many of them as possible. As a result they have to enter Palestinian cities to capture militants, put up checkpoints to stop as many as they can, and continue to fight the militants.
The Israelis gain nothing by occupying the territories. As for the settlement issue, they are not illegal, they are disputed. Israelis have every right under international law to live and settle in the territories.
At what point would you blame this on Palestinian terrorists? If they would stop the attacks, the occupation would end. The IDF is forced to take these measures to stop as many attacks as possible.
Can you explain to me any international law or any reason why the Israeli occupation of those territories is illegal? You have absolutely no basis for that claim.
As for the IDF, it's by far the best and most efficient urban zone warfare force on the planet. The IDF has killed less than 4,000 Palestinians in 4 years, despite an attempted 10,000+ attacks on Israeli targets. Compare that to tens of thousands of Iraqis have died in less than 2 years. Thus the reason the United States forces have been taking training from Israeli officials.
The Israelis gain nothing by occupying the territories. As for the settlement issue, they are not illegal, they are disputed. Israelis have every right under international law to live and settle in the territories.
At what point would you blame this on Palestinian terrorists? If they would stop the attacks, the occupation would end. The IDF is forced to take these measures to stop as many attacks as possible.
Can you explain to me any international law or any reason why the Israeli occupation of those territories is illegal? You have absolutely no basis for that claim.
As for the IDF, it's by far the best and most efficient urban zone warfare force on the planet. The IDF has killed less than 4,000 Palestinians in 4 years, despite an attempted 10,000+ attacks on Israeli targets. Compare that to tens of thousands of Iraqis have died in less than 2 years. Thus the reason the United States forces have been taking training from Israeli officials.
Are you tring to imply that the Palestinians deserve this unfair treatment because Israel believes theat they support this Intifada. That is complete rubbish b'coz the Israelis don't diffrenciate between any Palestinians, they all are suspected terrorists and are treated like criminals. Their lives have been ruined due to this occupatio, and all that the occupation does is create more hatred towards Israel, thus leading to more terrorists. No one wants to live the way that the Palestinians live.
The problem is that they always seem to kill innocent Palestinians such as children, which is leading to even more hatred and even more suicide bomber. Israel is creating these terrorists through their violent actions.
Israel has continued to build these illegal settlements in the past, which shows their stance on the situation. They don't want peace, they want land and this is shown through their actions. These settlements are illegal as shown in the Geneva cnvention
"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."
Israel has blatently ignored that.
The palestinian freedom fighter are reacting to the occupation. That is the main cause of everything, without that there would be peace. Thats what it comes down to, the land.
4,000 Palestinians is a damn lot of people, don't try to play down the figure by comparing it to the War on Iraq. The war with Iraq was an all out War whereas the Palestine/Israel situation is totally different.
The problem is that they always seem to kill innocent Palestinians such as children, which is leading to even more hatred and even more suicide bomber. Israel is creating these terrorists through their violent actions.
Israel has continued to build these illegal settlements in the past, which shows their stance on the situation. They don't want peace, they want land and this is shown through their actions. These settlements are illegal as shown in the Geneva cnvention
"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."
Israel has blatently ignored that.
The palestinian freedom fighter are reacting to the occupation. That is the main cause of everything, without that there would be peace. Thats what it comes down to, the land.
4,000 Palestinians is a damn lot of people, don't try to play down the figure by comparing it to the War on Iraq. The war with Iraq was an all out War whereas the Palestine/Israel situation is totally different.
The occupation of the territories is only a military occupation. The Palestinian Authority is allowed to exist under Oslo and is the autonomous government in the Palestinian territories. Israel is not responsible for providing medical care, food or shelter to the Palestinians.
Israel has never been sanctioned. The General Assembly has issued resolutions such as Israel should not raid areas, and stuff like withdrawing from Jerusalem etc. They haven't been sanctioned or accused of anything like your examples.
The Palestinian territories are two of the most densely populated lands on Earth. Palestinian militants/terrorists have launched over 10,000 attacks on Israeli targets (throwing stones doesn't qualify), and yet the average rate of Palestinian deaths is 3 a day, and 36% of Palestinian casualties were unarmed. Your claim is a complete fallacy.
Don't forget the RPGs, M16s and all the other automatic weapons that are smuggled under the Egyptian border. I'm sick and tired of people making this argument that the Palestinians are fighting with rocks. 1,000 Israelis have not been killed by a few Qassam rockets and rocks.
Wow, you contradict your claim that the Zionists are fascists in just a few sentences. In Israel there's something called a democracy, with things like freedom of speech. I know that's a very alien concept in the rest of the Middle East and all.
Israel is a Western country with a democracy and rational democratic principles. Somehow they're just not as dangerous with nuclear weapons as Saddam Hussein or the Ayatollahs. If you honestly have to ask this question, you are a fool.
Believe it or not, allies spy on each other. The United States spies on Israel as well.
Israel has never been sanctioned. The General Assembly has issued resolutions such as Israel should not raid areas, and stuff like withdrawing from Jerusalem etc. They haven't been sanctioned or accused of anything like your examples.
The Palestinian territories are two of the most densely populated lands on Earth. Palestinian militants/terrorists have launched over 10,000 attacks on Israeli targets (throwing stones doesn't qualify), and yet the average rate of Palestinian deaths is 3 a day, and 36% of Palestinian casualties were unarmed. Your claim is a complete fallacy.
Don't forget the RPGs, M16s and all the other automatic weapons that are smuggled under the Egyptian border. I'm sick and tired of people making this argument that the Palestinians are fighting with rocks. 1,000 Israelis have not been killed by a few Qassam rockets and rocks.
Wow, you contradict your claim that the Zionists are fascists in just a few sentences. In Israel there's something called a democracy, with things like freedom of speech. I know that's a very alien concept in the rest of the Middle East and all.
Israel is a Western country with a democracy and rational democratic principles. Somehow they're just not as dangerous with nuclear weapons as Saddam Hussein or the Ayatollahs. If you honestly have to ask this question, you are a fool.
Believe it or not, allies spy on each other. The United States spies on Israel as well.
The occupation however, hinders the Palestinians in providing these for their own people, I know you will claim that terroists are known to use ambulances as transport. And houses are only knocked down because terrorists have used them to attack IDF positions. But where is the justice for the ordinary civillians who have no part in the fighting but are dragged into it because they have no food, or their houses are bulldozed, or whos family member dies becuase the ambulance they were being transported in is held up at an IDF checkpoint for hours on end? These are the things that increases the support for the millitants, and if Israel wanted truly combat the militants it would not use measures that cause suffering on the part of normal civillians, or it will use alternitave methods that dont cause these problems.
Yes the US veto comes in very handy doesnt it.
10000 attacks? Over how long a period and what is the nature of these attacks?
Can u really compare the weapons and technology of the IDF to the terrorists? If the terrorists had half of what is available to the IDF a full out war wouldve broken out instead of the constant cat and mouse hit n run tactics emplyed by the terrorists. The Palestinians have absoloutly no miltary hardware. NO combat vehicles, no air and no Navy. The IDF has all the latest technologies in all 3 areas courtesy of its good friends in USA and Europe. Not to mention communication and reconnaissance equipment such as sattelites.
Are you saying that all Israelis are Zionists?
Yes but a nuclear Israel poses a threat to its neighbours, and will ultimately lead to them having nuclear aspirations. This is the arugement of non-proliferation vs dearming. To make things worse Israel has not signed up to the NP treaty under the UN. If all the other nuclear powers have an obligation to sign up to that to discuss this matter reasonably, why is Israel the exception. It may not agree with the treaty, but the official line is that they dont have any nuclear weapons even though the world knows otherwise.
terrorists, Morris?so you go to someone else's country, arrive in thousands in each wave over decades, kill it's indeginous population, kick them out of their homes and demolish them, then you occupy the land, and kill what's left of their children and relatives and you're expecting them to welcome your attacks on their people with welcome arms?I guess they are terrorists, I mean, they let you kick them out and they were bitching at you for it.how rude!
The IDF has a responsibility to protect its citizens. In fact, the IDF is obligated under international law to defend its citizens. The fact that they have to take the measures you mentioned is the fault of Palestinian terrorists who use houses as cover or shelter to launch or plan attacks, or those who use ambulances to smuggle arms and terrorists through checkpoints.
The US can't veto General Assembly resolutions. General Assembly resolutions are non binding and are simply suggestions. Security Council Resolutions, of which the United States has vetoed about 40, passed against Israel are Chapter Six resolutions, which requires Israel to enforce the resolutions. The UN has never sanctioned Israel or passed a resolution forcibly requiring Israel to comply with it.
Over 10,000 attacks since the intifada, which started in September/October of 2000. An attack is categorized by the ICT as any Palestinian attack on an Israeli target using a weapon. Throwing stones are not classified as weapons or attacks. So you're talking about 2,000+ attacks using weapons like guns/explosives per year on average by Palestinian militants. That's about 6 attempted attacks per day. And when you take into account that almost 80% of the Israeli casualties were unarmed combatants, it's clear who most of these attacks are targeting.
I fail to see the point in comparing the IDF's weaponry to the Palestinians. The simple fact is that the Palestinian Authority agreed to conditions in the Oslo Accords that stated the Palestinians are not allowed to have a standing army/navy/air force and are not allowed to manufacture or have the weapons that are currently being smuggled via Egypt. The Palestinians agreed to this.
The ideals/definition of Zionism was the establishment of a Jewish state in the lands of ancient Israel, the lands that Jews were expelled from during a Diaspora lasting a few millennia. I think it's safe to say that the Jews that came back to live in Israel are supporters of the idea of Zionism. That's not all Israelis, since Arabs comprise about 1/5 of the population.
And by the way, I also think it's safe to say that comparing Zionism to fascism is an insult to people's intelligence and a very clear example of anti-Semitism, especially through its implying that the primary victims of fascism are the moral equivalent of their Nazi antagonizers.
A nuclear Israel does not pose a threat to its neighbors anymore than a non-nuclear Israel. The Israeli armed forces will always be superior to its neighbors in a non nuclear capacity, and Israel will only use nuclear weapons in self defense.
Some of Israel's neighbors have stockpiled and have used weapons of mass destruction. And it's not an issue of nonproliferation or disarming: Iran and Syria have been skirting the IAEA for years. And those two countries have been belligerents in the past 40 years.
No nuclear power had an obligation to sign the NPT. Those who did sign the NPT did so of their own accord. And frankly, the NPT was not signed in a vaccuum. When Israel didn't sign the NPT, it did so at a time when all of its Arab neighbors had tried and were still trying to militarily eradicate the state. In a situation like that, nuclear weapons are the best form of self defense.
As for your suggestion that Israel is exempt from the NPT, as if it was a law, it should be noted that a few other nuclear countries, like India (and possibly Pakistan, but I'm not sure about Pakistan offhand), also are not signatories of the NPT.
So you're upset about Israel's status regarding the NPT when it was not obligated to sign the NPT and did not do so. And meanwhile countries like Iran and North Korea have completely disobeyed the NPT and have either armed themselves with nuclear weapons or participated in proliferation of the necessary nuclear resources/technology to each other.
You'd make a very good persuasive argument if any of your argument had any factual basis. I've refuted those simple (and fallacious) generalizations a million times on this board. You've been around long enough to see my rebuttals so I won't bother proving your generalizations wrong again.
The US can't veto General Assembly resolutions. General Assembly resolutions are non binding and are simply suggestions. Security Council Resolutions, of which the United States has vetoed about 40, passed against Israel are Chapter Six resolutions, which requires Israel to enforce the resolutions. The UN has never sanctioned Israel or passed a resolution forcibly requiring Israel to comply with it.
Over 10,000 attacks since the intifada, which started in September/October of 2000. An attack is categorized by the ICT as any Palestinian attack on an Israeli target using a weapon. Throwing stones are not classified as weapons or attacks. So you're talking about 2,000+ attacks using weapons like guns/explosives per year on average by Palestinian militants. That's about 6 attempted attacks per day. And when you take into account that almost 80% of the Israeli casualties were unarmed combatants, it's clear who most of these attacks are targeting.
I fail to see the point in comparing the IDF's weaponry to the Palestinians. The simple fact is that the Palestinian Authority agreed to conditions in the Oslo Accords that stated the Palestinians are not allowed to have a standing army/navy/air force and are not allowed to manufacture or have the weapons that are currently being smuggled via Egypt. The Palestinians agreed to this.
The ideals/definition of Zionism was the establishment of a Jewish state in the lands of ancient Israel, the lands that Jews were expelled from during a Diaspora lasting a few millennia. I think it's safe to say that the Jews that came back to live in Israel are supporters of the idea of Zionism. That's not all Israelis, since Arabs comprise about 1/5 of the population.
And by the way, I also think it's safe to say that comparing Zionism to fascism is an insult to people's intelligence and a very clear example of anti-Semitism, especially through its implying that the primary victims of fascism are the moral equivalent of their Nazi antagonizers.
A nuclear Israel does not pose a threat to its neighbors anymore than a non-nuclear Israel. The Israeli armed forces will always be superior to its neighbors in a non nuclear capacity, and Israel will only use nuclear weapons in self defense.
Some of Israel's neighbors have stockpiled and have used weapons of mass destruction. And it's not an issue of nonproliferation or disarming: Iran and Syria have been skirting the IAEA for years. And those two countries have been belligerents in the past 40 years.
No nuclear power had an obligation to sign the NPT. Those who did sign the NPT did so of their own accord. And frankly, the NPT was not signed in a vaccuum. When Israel didn't sign the NPT, it did so at a time when all of its Arab neighbors had tried and were still trying to militarily eradicate the state. In a situation like that, nuclear weapons are the best form of self defense.
As for your suggestion that Israel is exempt from the NPT, as if it was a law, it should be noted that a few other nuclear countries, like India (and possibly Pakistan, but I'm not sure about Pakistan offhand), also are not signatories of the NPT.
So you're upset about Israel's status regarding the NPT when it was not obligated to sign the NPT and did not do so. And meanwhile countries like Iran and North Korea have completely disobeyed the NPT and have either armed themselves with nuclear weapons or participated in proliferation of the necessary nuclear resources/technology to each other.
You'd make a very good persuasive argument if any of your argument had any factual basis. I've refuted those simple (and fallacious) generalizations a million times on this board. You've been around long enough to see my rebuttals so I won't bother proving your generalizations wrong again.
yeah, but this time you werent talking about Iraqi militants killing police officers, nor were you talking about suicide bombers.You were talking about people who are fighting to get their land back.I remember you calling suicide bombers "terrorists", fair enough, I'm not even going to go through it and explain my view/opinion, but the militants?You don't see me calling me the IDF or the Israeli gov terrorists, do you?
thats funny Morris you fit the typical Zionist reply "your anti semetic" please i have nothing against the jews period, only zionism the belief that your race and only your race have the right to live in that land is facist! Hell yes Israel in many ways does teh same things nazi germany did, Hitler didnt immediately start executing the jews when he came to power, he first moved them into ghettos, gave them no rights, forced them into slave labor, an claimed that his race was the supirior an the jews had no rights. Then eventually started killing them off. Israel is the ojly country on the face of this earth that only gives citizenship to jews only, an you dont see that as facist????? What if Canada was to say ok anyone who is not of european decent will not be granted citizenship, instead we're going to throw into refugee camps treat you as a second class citizen. an we have the right to this because in our book we are the chosen ones. I bet every country in the world would throw a hissy fit, Israel is a democracy? Really? so the arab israelies have the right to vote?? Israel is not a democracy not by far. Building a wall to keep so called "Terrorists" out is far from democractic, i seem to remember another wall that was put up in history an was demanded by the world to be torn down, Berlin ring a bell? You want us to always remember the holocaust as use that as excuse to kill thousands of people for God knows what reasons, like i said they wanna strike military targets hey fine but as we've seen 80% of the time Israels bombs an missles miss an kill innocents, when your beloved Israel stops killing our babies, men, women an lil children then maybe i will start to feel some compassion for those killed in suicide bombings. An how is Iran with nukes more of a threat then Israel with nukes? I Dont see muslim countries trying to nuke each other or even trying to get Israel, to have a truly peaceful middle east first Sharon must go! 2nd the entire middle east INCLUDING ISRAEL must be free of nuculear weapons. I cant believe how some people here cant see how big the hypocrisy is an yet turn a blind eye. Forget all the Torah, Bible an God's chosen crap for a minute, we're talking about human lives, what makes a jewish life worth more then an arab? or an arab more then a jewish? nothing. Matter fact do research an you'll see Arabs an Jews share the same dna an come from the same person, Abraham. All im saying i dont see how you can blindly support half the shit the israelies do, yes everyone has the right to self defense, Israelies as well as Palestininas. Peace
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