Sarkozy to submit bill banning Islamic face veils
- Thread starter SiGh
- Start date
^^ c'mon b thats the most ridiculous shit I've ever heard out of anyones mouth.
And then u wonder why they hate us? Ur talking about genocide as if it's ok, and then on the otherside ur mad that they wanna ban the niqaab or they poke fun at ur religion.
And whats worst is people will somehow relate ur hateful comment to u being a Muslim. You think thats not offensive? Killing millions of innocent people is not offensive?
Honestly.. u cant actually believe that bullshit.
I cant say this to everyone on here cuz they arent Muslim.. But remember that ur responsible for the things u say infront of Allah and ur a representative to the religion.
Dont be shocked when u hear people attacking the religion specifically cuz of the type of shit thats coming out of ur mouth right now.
And then u wonder why they hate us? Ur talking about genocide as if it's ok, and then on the otherside ur mad that they wanna ban the niqaab or they poke fun at ur religion.
And whats worst is people will somehow relate ur hateful comment to u being a Muslim. You think thats not offensive? Killing millions of innocent people is not offensive?
Honestly.. u cant actually believe that bullshit.
I cant say this to everyone on here cuz they arent Muslim.. But remember that ur responsible for the things u say infront of Allah and ur a representative to the religion.
Dont be shocked when u hear people attacking the religion specifically cuz of the type of shit thats coming out of ur mouth right now.
Maybe I used the wrong word. But, if the country itself, ceased to exist. I didn't mean to kill all the inhabitants of Israel. I meant that there was no Israel that we know today. there wouldn't be this west against east or Muslims issue. The west is standing by Israel even though it has been created unlawfully on palestinian land
I can't be bothered to read through 10+ pages so I'm just going to state my opinion on the veil banning. I cant for the life of me understand why anyone would want to wear niqab but it should be up to each individual to choose how to dress themselves. You cant fight oppression by using oppression yourselves. I hate to see this same mentality of banning religious expression that is present in the islamic world spread through the western world.
Integration is a concept that assumes interest. I need to want to be integrated to be integrated. The problem today, at least in my country, is not that we are failing to integrate foreigners who come here because we have strict rules and regulations. The problems are that they simply do not want to get integrated. Their children will grow up in a society and forcefully become integrated whether they like it or not, that's what happens when you grow up in surroundings -> they affect you. But first-generation immigrants are not looking to get integrated, and conservative X-generation immigrants never want to.
It's as simple as this: You're country's shit? Well shit. You don't like the rules in my country? Well shit. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you stay in your home country, but you obviously didn't want to, you wanted to leave. Well then fucking prepare to make some changes to accommodate those that will have you. Don't just leave and expect to get taken care of because you suffered where you came from. Don't expect freedom or rights that are tailored to you if you have needs that by the populace there would be called "special". Wearing clothing that covers the face is a very special etiquette that is very nonsensical and has its obvious traces in jealous husbands who didn't want to share their hot wives.
It's quite simple, for me to trust a person I need to see their face, and they need to be wearing clothing that doesn't otherwise conceal an AK. Over here, people in those overalls (I don't remember the name right off the bat as I am Islam ignorant rofl) often use them to steal shit in stores. A little kid will grab a computer and run for the entrance, throw it away somewhere outside so people stop chasing, and during all the commotion a few ladies put some laptops up between their skirts and left. All those clothes are great for concealing anything from things you steal to weapons. Why should they wear it? Because it's their culture and because they want to? Then decide what you want more, to cover your face, or to live in France. Imho.
It's as simple as this: You're country's shit? Well shit. You don't like the rules in my country? Well shit. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you stay in your home country, but you obviously didn't want to, you wanted to leave. Well then fucking prepare to make some changes to accommodate those that will have you. Don't just leave and expect to get taken care of because you suffered where you came from. Don't expect freedom or rights that are tailored to you if you have needs that by the populace there would be called "special". Wearing clothing that covers the face is a very special etiquette that is very nonsensical and has its obvious traces in jealous husbands who didn't want to share their hot wives.
It's quite simple, for me to trust a person I need to see their face, and they need to be wearing clothing that doesn't otherwise conceal an AK. Over here, people in those overalls (I don't remember the name right off the bat as I am Islam ignorant rofl) often use them to steal shit in stores. A little kid will grab a computer and run for the entrance, throw it away somewhere outside so people stop chasing, and during all the commotion a few ladies put some laptops up between their skirts and left. All those clothes are great for concealing anything from things you steal to weapons. Why should they wear it? Because it's their culture and because they want to? Then decide what you want more, to cover your face, or to live in France. Imho.
If I go to a muslim country, and travel into one of the districts where people are generally more conservative and extreme, and walk around with a cross, praising Jesus as the messiah, what will happen to me? They don't show any more respect than we do in their own territory. In fact, Europeans are treated like shit down there. Up here in Norway, muslims they get their own holidays, and the government builds Mosques for them. Yet my car's wheels are damaged due to holes in the road. I can see how one less Mosque could have meant one better road, one less fee I have to pay, a better life for me. That's what it comes down to rly. The french don't give a fuck about nobody but the french like any other human/country/grouping of people out there.
I personally am not a fan of the Burqa or Nikab... because in MY opinion.. I don't like what it represents for the woman underneath. If these were optional for Muslim women to wear.. it would be different but I don't like the idea of someone not having a choice but to cover themselves so completely.
That being said... My personal opinion of the clothing aside, I don't think banning these items are okay. It's telling someone that they have to disobey their god and their religion. That is not okay. IDK, it's a topic with a lot of angles.. but if they wanted to make skirts illegal for Jewish females.. would that be okay? Or if no Christian was allowed to wear a hat in church.. to cover their head to god.. would that be okay? If you're going to screw someone's civil rights.. screw the civil rights of everyone. It should be all or nothing in my opinion.
That being said... My personal opinion of the clothing aside, I don't think banning these items are okay. It's telling someone that they have to disobey their god and their religion. That is not okay. IDK, it's a topic with a lot of angles.. but if they wanted to make skirts illegal for Jewish females.. would that be okay? Or if no Christian was allowed to wear a hat in church.. to cover their head to god.. would that be okay? If you're going to screw someone's civil rights.. screw the civil rights of everyone. It should be all or nothing in my opinion.
Well, I understand that per the religion it's not mandatory.. but i've met a few women who have had these clothing items imposed on them by their husbands and/or the men in their family with reference to religion. I know that's not the fault of the religion but it still oppresses the women and leaves them feeling as if they have few other options. Not all women, yes, I know this. But some. And definitely the women who i've spoken with. Just saying.
imo they could wear that at home or on the streets in some cases. However it's getting ridiculous when they are allowed to enter banks, write exams at universities or work at public places wearing them. They should adjust in these cases.
However even then you can't tell them that they have to take it off because they will sue you despite there being a more important reason than someone's feelings.
However even then you can't tell them that they have to take it off because they will sue you despite there being a more important reason than someone's feelings.
I don't understand. Why is someone else's clothes a problem for anyone during an exam, or while in the bank? It's like saying teacher, I can't finish my exam cause there's 3 people in the room wearing headbands. People can allow themselves to let things like that become something of an annoyance by simply not being critical of their own thoughts and actions. I'm sure you either just didn't explain your point thoroughly enough, or that there's some other explanation for why I'm misunderstanding, but this is what I read in the paragraph I just quoted:
You are what you dress. You should dress like everyone else. I don't like Islamic traditional clothing because I just don't, and therefore they should not use it. Some times they could use it on the street.
You're not defining what these "some times" should be. There is no thought-out plan, it seems to me like you have an opinion that you haven't thought through a lot. Every human has different points of interest, and we all know more than the rest about the things we're particularly interested in, so maybe you're not interested in muslims and integration, and haven't approached the issue from their point of view in your own line of thoughts. Yo me it seems as if you want them to stop wearing the clothes, but for no apparent reason. You just don't like it. That is the definition of prejudice.
I'm not defending that women should be forced to wear anything and this post is outside of the discussion in this thread, I just didn't understand your particular disposition.
You are what you dress. You should dress like everyone else. I don't like Islamic traditional clothing because I just don't, and therefore they should not use it. Some times they could use it on the street.
You're not defining what these "some times" should be. There is no thought-out plan, it seems to me like you have an opinion that you haven't thought through a lot. Every human has different points of interest, and we all know more than the rest about the things we're particularly interested in, so maybe you're not interested in muslims and integration, and haven't approached the issue from their point of view in your own line of thoughts. Yo me it seems as if you want them to stop wearing the clothes, but for no apparent reason. You just don't like it. That is the definition of prejudice.
I'm not defending that women should be forced to wear anything and this post is outside of the discussion in this thread, I just didn't understand your particular disposition.
At our universities there's a special procedure. There's a woman that has to go to another room where a muslim woman has to show her face to prove that it's really her. We can start an exam after verifications. They can't force these women to get "tested" before the exam should start because that wouldn't be fair to them as they had to be forced to come earlier than everyone else. So everyone else have to wait instead.
Obviously problems start when that said muslim woman doesn't have a "normal" ID and in hers there's a picture of her.. in a burqa. I was unfortunate enough to write one exam in my lifetime with a muslim girl in the same group. It started 3 hours later because they had some problems with her and finally she refused to write and was really pissed.
Of course if she was anyone else the exam would start at 8 and if she was 5 minutes late she couldn't even enter.
Other than that what Sebby said - security reasons. That's why I mentioned banks and such. I wouldn't be allowed to wear a ninja outfit or any other "suspicious" looking one. And probably nothing is more suspicious than a burqa. That and a Pakistani guerilla with ak-47 on his back.
Obviously they can't do anything if a muslim woman enters.
Also, I couldn't fire a woman for wearing a burqa even if it really was necessary (as you can picture there are many jobs that are impossible or very troublesome with these specific "clothes" on).
I'd probably lose any case if she sued me.
Also it would be even hard to fire her for any other reason even if she was slacking off or stealing from the company. She could say it's racism and I'd have a lot of trouble proving that I'm right and she's wrong.
Obviously problems start when that said muslim woman doesn't have a "normal" ID and in hers there's a picture of her.. in a burqa. I was unfortunate enough to write one exam in my lifetime with a muslim girl in the same group. It started 3 hours later because they had some problems with her and finally she refused to write and was really pissed.
Of course if she was anyone else the exam would start at 8 and if she was 5 minutes late she couldn't even enter.
Other than that what Sebby said - security reasons. That's why I mentioned banks and such. I wouldn't be allowed to wear a ninja outfit or any other "suspicious" looking one. And probably nothing is more suspicious than a burqa. That and a Pakistani guerilla with ak-47 on his back.
Obviously they can't do anything if a muslim woman enters.
Also, I couldn't fire a woman for wearing a burqa even if it really was necessary (as you can picture there are many jobs that are impossible or very troublesome with these specific "clothes" on).
I'd probably lose any case if she sued me.
Also it would be even hard to fire her for any other reason even if she was slacking off or stealing from the company. She could say it's racism and I'd have a lot of trouble proving that I'm right and she's wrong.
Well, this moral dilemma has a side to it that I don't think you've explored fully.
You are supporting the ban for security reasons which are very perspective dependent. Consider this:
- Driving a car is among the most lethal things a person can do, and can potentially kill you at any moment. It doesn't only come down to you and your state of condition. You can't account for road raging lunatics who drive while under the influence of incapacitating substances.
- Flying a plane is not statistically as dangerous, but has the same potential for a fatal accident if something goes wrong.
- Any person you pass on the street can potentially be wearing a concealed weapon that they could pull out and shoot/stab you in the face with at any point.
- Alcohol incapacitates your judgment to various degrees depending on the individual. Some people drink so much alcohol they die, because once the buzz starts coming they lose all control. Alcohol has a certain effect on the body which can not be compared to many other drugs, but one drug which has withdrawal effects comparable to those of alcohol, is heroine. While under the influence of alcohol, you may at any point black out and go nuts. You don't know what lies latent in your body until something like that happens anyway, so you can't rule it out, even if it's as unlikely as being in a plane crash. It's still a viable chance it might happen.
- Speaking out strong opinions in public might provoke members of the audience to violence. If they are crazy enough. You don't know that another person isn't crazy. This point overlaps with what I said above about someone randomly stabbing you in the phase, but I wanted to emphasize that we often speak out on things that can potentially provoke others, and we don't always consider everything we say from every possible angle.
- At any point, a plane could fall out of the sky and right on top of wherever you are at the time, and kill you.
- At any point, a comet may hit you.
- At any point, an earthquake might send a tsunami your way.
- At any point, all prisoners of a jail may take over the jail and escape, having several thousand murderers, thieves and other types of criminals on the loose.
I can come up with more trivial and extreme examples. I tried to balance between very trivial and very extreme for the sake of the point I am trying to make. You don't necessarily fear any or all of these things I've listed. Why? Well, I can't know for sure, but I'm guessing like most people, your judgment is that it's so unlikely it'll happen, that it's not something you should worry about. Whenever you see a plane in the sky you don't immediately start fearing that it will fall down on you. When you see a car driving in traffic you don't immediately fear that it will hit you.
And you probably wouldn't have feared women in burqas had it not been for 9/11, the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, and the following worldwide opposition by Muslims who felt like the West treated them unjustly, and robbed them of their human rights. There is no logical difference between expecting a plane to fall out of the sky and expecting a woman in a burqa to blow up a bank. Both are equally unlikely. You've just subconsciously decided that one of the very unlikely accidents that can happen is a more prominent threat than any of the others. It's not necessarily so, and suggesting that it is, is offensive to all of the Muslim world. Because you are suggesting that due to the actions of a few, you view all Muslims as a whole. So then, why do you accept cars, planes, and people around you? You go out on the street even though a car/plane can hit you or someone can stab you, but you won't go into a bank in case a bomb goes off. I mean, dying in a bomb explosion is probably preferable to being shot or stabbed to death anyway. I don't see the logic. I understand where you are coming from, I do, but it's pretty obvious that you've used our built-in selective-ness in deciding what you are for and what you are against, and I'm not saying that that's wrong. It's very natural. Just saying that if you aren't already, you should at least be aware of your own hypocrisy.
Edit: As for the job thing, I have a problem with that too. You are suggesting that Muslims should have to suffer due to the prejudices of others. You speak of these jobs where it wouldn't be appropriate to wear a burqa. It's only non-appropriate because we've decided it is. We have let pop culture decide for us what we accept and don't accept, and in that way, we are being sheep when we expect Muslims to follow our ideals. I see nothing wrong with a female executive wearing a burqa if it's by choice, and if she otherwise does a good job. It's not a traditional image, but sticking to tradition is retarded and discourages social evolution, which is ultimately negative and why the Catholic church is so retarded. They refuse to be open to new things, they insist on sticking to traditions that are unhealthy for human minds.
Maybe if we just accepted the fucking things and shut our mouths for ten years, they wouldn't feel so scrutinized, and integration would be easier as they would not feel unwanted and criticized. This could have a positive effect on the world community. Then in ten years, they will have slowly become integrated, at which point maybe they decide for themselves that the burqa is useless. Let them come to that decision though, don't try to make it for them. What happens when you nag at a smoker to stop smoking? They keep smoking, but end up feeling guilty about it. You are destroying their life quality by allowing yourself to say whatever you feel without applying discipline. It's your right to utter your opinion, but if you ask a smoker to stop smoking you must have a motive behind it, and if the motive is to actually get the person to stop smoking, nagging at them will be counter-productive. Do not for a second think that Muslims aren't homo sapien with the same basic primitive needs like attention, affection and respect as any Westerner. They are and they do. And the way we are treating them, I fully understand why they feel robbed of these needs. The ban is counter-productive to what it is trying to achieve - control over the Muslim population and peace. It is a selfish ban that implies that "no, we will not tolerate change, and we will demean and force those that are different". I will not say anything further, you see where I am going with this.
You are supporting the ban for security reasons which are very perspective dependent. Consider this:
- Driving a car is among the most lethal things a person can do, and can potentially kill you at any moment. It doesn't only come down to you and your state of condition. You can't account for road raging lunatics who drive while under the influence of incapacitating substances.
- Flying a plane is not statistically as dangerous, but has the same potential for a fatal accident if something goes wrong.
- Any person you pass on the street can potentially be wearing a concealed weapon that they could pull out and shoot/stab you in the face with at any point.
- Alcohol incapacitates your judgment to various degrees depending on the individual. Some people drink so much alcohol they die, because once the buzz starts coming they lose all control. Alcohol has a certain effect on the body which can not be compared to many other drugs, but one drug which has withdrawal effects comparable to those of alcohol, is heroine. While under the influence of alcohol, you may at any point black out and go nuts. You don't know what lies latent in your body until something like that happens anyway, so you can't rule it out, even if it's as unlikely as being in a plane crash. It's still a viable chance it might happen.
- Speaking out strong opinions in public might provoke members of the audience to violence. If they are crazy enough. You don't know that another person isn't crazy. This point overlaps with what I said above about someone randomly stabbing you in the phase, but I wanted to emphasize that we often speak out on things that can potentially provoke others, and we don't always consider everything we say from every possible angle.
- At any point, a plane could fall out of the sky and right on top of wherever you are at the time, and kill you.
- At any point, a comet may hit you.
- At any point, an earthquake might send a tsunami your way.
- At any point, all prisoners of a jail may take over the jail and escape, having several thousand murderers, thieves and other types of criminals on the loose.
I can come up with more trivial and extreme examples. I tried to balance between very trivial and very extreme for the sake of the point I am trying to make. You don't necessarily fear any or all of these things I've listed. Why? Well, I can't know for sure, but I'm guessing like most people, your judgment is that it's so unlikely it'll happen, that it's not something you should worry about. Whenever you see a plane in the sky you don't immediately start fearing that it will fall down on you. When you see a car driving in traffic you don't immediately fear that it will hit you.
And you probably wouldn't have feared women in burqas had it not been for 9/11, the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, and the following worldwide opposition by Muslims who felt like the West treated them unjustly, and robbed them of their human rights. There is no logical difference between expecting a plane to fall out of the sky and expecting a woman in a burqa to blow up a bank. Both are equally unlikely. You've just subconsciously decided that one of the very unlikely accidents that can happen is a more prominent threat than any of the others. It's not necessarily so, and suggesting that it is, is offensive to all of the Muslim world. Because you are suggesting that due to the actions of a few, you view all Muslims as a whole. So then, why do you accept cars, planes, and people around you? You go out on the street even though a car/plane can hit you or someone can stab you, but you won't go into a bank in case a bomb goes off. I mean, dying in a bomb explosion is probably preferable to being shot or stabbed to death anyway. I don't see the logic. I understand where you are coming from, I do, but it's pretty obvious that you've used our built-in selective-ness in deciding what you are for and what you are against, and I'm not saying that that's wrong. It's very natural. Just saying that if you aren't already, you should at least be aware of your own hypocrisy.
Edit: As for the job thing, I have a problem with that too. You are suggesting that Muslims should have to suffer due to the prejudices of others. You speak of these jobs where it wouldn't be appropriate to wear a burqa. It's only non-appropriate because we've decided it is. We have let pop culture decide for us what we accept and don't accept, and in that way, we are being sheep when we expect Muslims to follow our ideals. I see nothing wrong with a female executive wearing a burqa if it's by choice, and if she otherwise does a good job. It's not a traditional image, but sticking to tradition is retarded and discourages social evolution, which is ultimately negative and why the Catholic church is so retarded. They refuse to be open to new things, they insist on sticking to traditions that are unhealthy for human minds.
Maybe if we just accepted the fucking things and shut our mouths for ten years, they wouldn't feel so scrutinized, and integration would be easier as they would not feel unwanted and criticized. This could have a positive effect on the world community. Then in ten years, they will have slowly become integrated, at which point maybe they decide for themselves that the burqa is useless. Let them come to that decision though, don't try to make it for them. What happens when you nag at a smoker to stop smoking? They keep smoking, but end up feeling guilty about it. You are destroying their life quality by allowing yourself to say whatever you feel without applying discipline. It's your right to utter your opinion, but if you ask a smoker to stop smoking you must have a motive behind it, and if the motive is to actually get the person to stop smoking, nagging at them will be counter-productive. Do not for a second think that Muslims aren't homo sapien with the same basic primitive needs like attention, affection and respect as any Westerner. They are and they do. And the way we are treating them, I fully understand why they feel robbed of these needs. The ban is counter-productive to what it is trying to achieve - control over the Muslim population and peace. It is a selfish ban that implies that "no, we will not tolerate change, and we will demean and force those that are different". I will not say anything further, you see where I am going with this.
Most of those things mentioned are crimes.
If it comes to suspicious looking people I tend to avoid them, Same with driving - I don't drive recklessly to minimize the danger etc. I try to avoid these things.
It's not like muslim extremists only did 2 or 3 "bad things". They tend to blow themselves and/or otherwise kill others quite often. It's more likely that a muslim will blow himself up than anyone else. Even if it's just an individual member and most others wouldn't do it he still somehow represents muslims. And I can't know for sure what's in his mind.
In the same way I'd avoid dark corners in a bad neighborhood or flying a suspicious looking airplane. Considering that there are not many (like there are not many muslims here) it's fairly easy to avoid them and I feel better that way.
In a same way not all airplanes are killers
If it comes to suspicious looking people I tend to avoid them, Same with driving - I don't drive recklessly to minimize the danger etc. I try to avoid these things.
It's not like muslim extremists only did 2 or 3 "bad things". They tend to blow themselves and/or otherwise kill others quite often. It's more likely that a muslim will blow himself up than anyone else. Even if it's just an individual member and most others wouldn't do it he still somehow represents muslims. And I can't know for sure what's in his mind.
In the same way I'd avoid dark corners in a bad neighborhood or flying a suspicious looking airplane. Considering that there are not many (like there are not many muslims here) it's fairly easy to avoid them and I feel better that way.
In a same way not all airplanes are killers
And you just contradicted your own point with the last line, because not all Muslims are terrorist suicide bombers.
You can't know for sure what's in the minds of drivers in traffic, even if you are just walking along the pavement. At any point, any one of them might be like "I can't take my life" and drive into the wall behind you. You have decided that this is something that you won't let affect your behavior. I didn't mean to imply that Muslims aren't the most frequent suicide bombers. You are right about that statistic. Still, for every individual Muslim you meet, the likelihood that that particular Muslim is a terrorist is the same as the likelihood that the next plane you get on is gonna crash. Both might happen, but the percentage change that they will is equally low. You tolerate one, but not the other. That is a hypocrisy that I can only suspect stems from fear of the unknown. Planes have been around since you were born, but suicide bombers only came to your attention at an older age. Therefore, you decide that what you know is safe, but what is new is potentially unsafe, and you let it affect your behavior and the way you treat these people.
The statement "they tend to blow themselves up quite often" is a totally pointless, fact-less and unfounded statement. It roots itself in no info but your perception, which is individualistic and dependent on your upbringing, genetic heritage and other factors that we as simple human beings probably don't fully understand yet. We do not have a comprehensive map of how the microorganisms in our body co-relate. There may be things outside of our knowledge that affect our consciousness in ways we don't realize. Even if we did assume that we know everything there is to know about everything right now, consider this:
If you count the amount of Muslims to have ever lived, and count the amount of Muslims that blew themselves up, then you count every airplane that was ever made, and count how many airplanes have crashed, the statistics will be overwhelmingly similar I think. In fact, I wager (you can hold me to this) $50 that the statistics would show that airplanes are more dangerous than Muslims. If you can disprove that statement I will PayPal $50 to you or do it with a regular bank transfer if you are unable to use PayPal. Or buy online goods worth $50 and ship it to your address on my expense. That is how confident I am that your perception of suicide bombers is totally misconstrued.
And I'm not trying to get you to agree that you are wrong. I'm just presenting counter-arguments to what I understand is your position on the matter, in the interest of keeping the discussion interesting.
You can't know for sure what's in the minds of drivers in traffic, even if you are just walking along the pavement. At any point, any one of them might be like "I can't take my life" and drive into the wall behind you. You have decided that this is something that you won't let affect your behavior. I didn't mean to imply that Muslims aren't the most frequent suicide bombers. You are right about that statistic. Still, for every individual Muslim you meet, the likelihood that that particular Muslim is a terrorist is the same as the likelihood that the next plane you get on is gonna crash. Both might happen, but the percentage change that they will is equally low. You tolerate one, but not the other. That is a hypocrisy that I can only suspect stems from fear of the unknown. Planes have been around since you were born, but suicide bombers only came to your attention at an older age. Therefore, you decide that what you know is safe, but what is new is potentially unsafe, and you let it affect your behavior and the way you treat these people.
The statement "they tend to blow themselves up quite often" is a totally pointless, fact-less and unfounded statement. It roots itself in no info but your perception, which is individualistic and dependent on your upbringing, genetic heritage and other factors that we as simple human beings probably don't fully understand yet. We do not have a comprehensive map of how the microorganisms in our body co-relate. There may be things outside of our knowledge that affect our consciousness in ways we don't realize. Even if we did assume that we know everything there is to know about everything right now, consider this:
If you count the amount of Muslims to have ever lived, and count the amount of Muslims that blew themselves up, then you count every airplane that was ever made, and count how many airplanes have crashed, the statistics will be overwhelmingly similar I think. In fact, I wager (you can hold me to this) $50 that the statistics would show that airplanes are more dangerous than Muslims. If you can disprove that statement I will PayPal $50 to you or do it with a regular bank transfer if you are unable to use PayPal. Or buy online goods worth $50 and ship it to your address on my expense. That is how confident I am that your perception of suicide bombers is totally misconstrued.
And I'm not trying to get you to agree that you are wrong. I'm just presenting counter-arguments to what I understand is your position on the matter, in the interest of keeping the discussion interesting.
Yes, we've "decided" that, for example, wearing something that totally covers your face is rude when you talk to someone, especially in a public function. We in the west have "decided" that it's appropriate you shake hands with people you first meet. That's how our society works. You can't change that overnight. Not even in 20 years. If instead of shaking hands at an introduction I slap my head three times, make a pirouette and yell "BANZAI", I'd be different too. Should society accept this?
And also, i see your point and it technically stands, but Fred, have you considered that all this change you advocate can just as easily be flipped around on the other side? You're saying "we" should open up and accept, but why can't "they"?
And of course, your whole earlier rant about how there is no right and wrong is entirely true. It's their culture and it's our culture. Different set of ideas. But at the end of the road this issue is about muslim culture in western countries. No matter how you want to sugarcoat it, their culture is a guest in our culture at that point. Now, proper integration requires both sides to cooperate, of course. And similarly we westerners cannot expect the immigrants to fully adapt within a few years and do away with THEIR culture. But there are some things that are just generally offensive to the host culture and you cannot expect the hosts to just suck it up when it's something that's been there for centuries or more.
Now, on the specific issue of BANNING such face covering garments, these "tents" as I so disrespectfully like to call them, I don't support a full fledged ban on them, no. People should be allowed to wear what they want. If I go out in a giant chicken suit, I can't expect people to view me the same as i were wearing normal clothes. That's why you can't wear a chicken suit in public functions (maybe as a KFC employee).
The analogy of the burkha/niqaab and a giant chicken suit may seem weird at first, but the point I'm trying to make is that both are viewed as "weird" garments here in the west.
You want to wear a burkha? Fine. But don't whine when people think you're rude and don't whine when you didn't get that job. But they yell "opression!" And then you're back to the double standard.
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