Not believing in God

[Jokerman]

Chronic's main point:

Some people are convinced that not believing in God would anger him, but I can't see why.

Teck's response:

God doesn't get angry if you dont believe in him...

So you see, you both agree and are actually long lost twins.

 

[TecK NeeX]

^ Lol .. Problem Solved

I'll put in a good word for you when you come before God Jokerman, that might shave off a couple of years from your sentence to hell.

 

[TecK NeeX]

I think you're confusing what he's saying. Currently our belief in God is based on faith. We don't know for sure that he exists so if you believe in him it's based on faith, not fact. If he made his presence known faith wouldn't be in the picture as it's a fact that he exists. You don't talk about believing in something's existence when you know it does.

Chronic this is a perfect example of why i believe you just can't seem to understand anything i've said so far.

I know currently our belief is based on faith and not fact. i think this is the 3rd time i've said this but, Thats the purpose of this first life "This Exam" It has to be based on FAITH alone. You must understand that to know why God left us with very little evidence of his existence. God created us for a purpose, and not just for the hell of it. There would be NO purpose/exam in this life if God's existence was FACT. That would contradict everything from our free will to the Day of Judgement to Heaven and Hell and especially the after life. there would be no point in ALL of that if his existence was FACT.

YOU Chronic are a perfect example of why he left us with no evidence of his existence. Do you think you'd be in this situation regarding his existence if he was fact? most likely not, thats the point of this life. we MUST come on our OWN to accept him and develop a faith in him, thats what we need to do 'win a ticket' to Heaven.

 

[Chronic]

Chronic this is a perfect example of why i believe you just can't seem to understand anything i've said so far.

I know currently our belief is based on faith and not fact. i think this is the 3rd time i've said this but, Thats the purpose of this first life "This Exam" It has to be based on FAITH alone. You must understand that to know why God left us with very little evidence of his existence. God created us for a purpose, and not just for the hell of it. There would be NO purpose/exam in this life if God's existence was FACT. That would contradict everything from our free will to the Day of Judgement to Heaven and Hell and especially the after life. there would be no point in ALL of that if his existence was FACT.

YOU Chronic are a perfect example of why he left us with no evidence of his existence. Do you think you'd be in this situation regarding his existence if he was fact? most likely not, thats the point of this life. we MUST come on our OWN to accept him and develop a faith in him, thats what we need to do 'win a ticket' to Heaven.

And this is why I say you don't understand.

You seem to interpret me saying "Now if God made his existence known" as me thinking that God should make his existence known or that I disagree with God but I don't! My opnion on this isn't even relevant to the thread.

All I'm saying is that you can't have a lack of faith in something you don't think exists. Jokerman said it better than me, if you don't believe in God you have a lack of faith in the idea of God but not God himself, as in your mind He doesn't even exist.
All you've been doing is explaining why God punishes you for having a lack of faith and why our belief in him should be based on faith. This discussion doesn't require you to have an understanding of religion yet all you've been doing is explaining what it says in the Holy Books.

The statement is: If you don't believe in God you have a lack of faith in God and therefore you will be punished.
I'm saying: Not believing in God isn't a lack of faith in God therefore there is nothing to be punished for. You can only have a lack of faith in God if you think/know that he exists.
Which is why I used the analogy of saying something disrespectful about someone's mom. You may be saying disrespectful things about someone's mom but she's not the person being disrespected, the person you're talking to is.

You're discussing the punishment of the crime, I'm discussing the crime not being committed. This thread isn't really even about religion. I haven't even read any of the Holy Books (yet) so why the hell would I question them? I have more sense than that.

I can't explain it any better than that...

If after this you can't see that we're simply discussing two different things then don't bother to reply because I won't.

I'd also like to thank you for thinking of me as ignorant :thumb:

 

[TecK NeeX]

And this is why I say you don't understand.

You seem to interpret me saying "Now if God made his existence known" as me thinking that God should make his existence known but I don't! My opnion on this isn't even relevant to the thread.

All I'm saying is that you can't have a lack of faith in something you don't think exists. Jokerman said it better than me, if you don't believe in God you have a lack of faith in the idea of God but not God himself, as in your mind He doesn't even exist.
All you've been doing is explaining why God punishes you for having a lack of faith and why our belief in him should be based on faith. This discussion doesn't require you to have an understanding of religion yet all you've been doing is explaining what it says in the Holy Books. This is simply a discussion about a sense of logic.

The statement is: If you don't believe in God you have a lack of faith in God and therefore you will be punished.
I'm saying: Not believing in God isn't a lack of faith in God therefore there is nothing to be punished for. You can only have a lack of faith in God if you think/know that he exists.

You're discussing the punishment of the crime, I'm discussing the crime not being committed. This thread isn't really even about religion. I haven't even read any of the Holy Books (yet) so why the hell would I question them? I have more sense than that.

I can't explain it any better than that...

If after this you can't see that we're simply discussing two different things then don't bother to reply because I won't.

I'd also like to thank you for thinking of me as ignorant :thumb:

Chronic do you believe religious people are born with a belief in God? absolutely not, how do you think we've come about into believing in God? we did our work and accepted him, you didn't, maybe you did yet you still reject him, thats the purpose of life, you either accept him or not, and thats where you've failed by not accepting him. He's not going to punish you for having a lack of faith in him, because you dont believe he exists, right? instead he'll (hate to speak for God) punish you for not believing he exists or getting to know him and failing to develope a relationship and a faith in the Entity that created you. You want factual proof of his existence and you're not going to get that. That will kill the purpose of this life.

So all that said before was pointless, you want an answer to the question "will God punish you for having a lack of faith in him because you dont believe he exists?" No he'll punish you for not having faith in him AT ALL, for rejecting him, for denying his existence. thats what God forbid he'll punish you for.


I've said that countless times in this thread

Edit: You should have noticed that i've called myself Ignorant as well in that post. Im calling everyone ignorant for questioning something they know nothing about

 

[Chronic]

Chronic do you believe religious people are born with a belief in God? absolutely not, how do you think we've come about into believing in God? we did our work, you Didn't, and thats where you've failed.

You want factual proof of his existence and you're not going to get that. That will kill the purpose of this life.

This thread isn't about me. The only time I involved my personal experiences with God is when I asked you a question in the middle of the thread but I clearly stated that it wasn't my original question. My opinion on God is irrelevant.
And you're not even getting points that I made about myself right (I don't think you could tell me my standpoint on God without carefully re-reading my posts).

Fine. Assume that there's a person that did put in the work. Assume that that person did everything in his power to try and form a relationship with God up until his deathbed. But after trying everything he could he still doesn't believe that God exists. Some people think that God would still punish this man, I don't.

And I don't care if you called yourself ignorant, that doesn't excuse you from calling me ignorant as I never questioned anything I don't understand in this thread. I'm not questioning God or religion at all.

 

[Chronic]

you want an answer to the question "will God punish you for having a lack of faith in him because you dont believe he exists?"

No.
I only asked that question somewhere in the middle of the thread. I'd actually like an on-topic discussion, not what we're having.

The only actual question I asked when I made this thread:
"And if God does get angry at people not believing that he exists wouldn't that make him incredibly petty and cruel?"

but even that wasn't the main point of my thread.

All you've been doing is explaining why God punishes you

he'll (hate to speak for God) punish you for not believing he exists or getting to know him and failing to develope a relationship and a faith in the Entity that created you.

No he'll punish you for not having faith in him AT ALL, for rejecting him, for denying his existence. thats what God forbid he'll punish you for.

Why are you even discussing?

To use the mother analogy again to show how our discussion has gone:

I try to explain why the mother isn't the person being disrespected. You go on and on about why it's wrong to disrespect the mother.

 

[bigmack]

God is compassionate,forgiving and merciful.God is not cruel and unjust.I don't believe that you will be punished with eternal fire just because you are a non believer.I believe that you will be judged on your deeds,intentions and efforts in finding god.

 

[TecK NeeX]

Chronic if you're lack of faith lies in for example lets say the authors of Qur'an or the Prophet whom God has chosen to reveal his word. You are disrespecting both the Prophet and God, by having a lack of faith in the Prophet or in your own words "The people that tell you God exists" you're disrespecting them, the word of God and God.

Edit: what i mean by disrespect im just trying to relate that to the mother analogy, you're not actually disrespecting them, that is your decision or how you feel

 

[Illuminattile]

Chronic if you're lack of faith lies in for example lets say the authors of Qur'an or the Prophet whom God has chosen to reveal his word. You are disrespecting both the Prophet and God, by having a lack of faith in the Prophet or in your own words "The people that tell you God exists" you're disrespecting them, the word of God and God.

It's not disrespectful to question someone, even if that someone is a "prophet".

There are a lot of Gods that you don't believe in, TecK, and there are a lot of "prophets" that you don't believe in. You can't tell people that they shouldn't disregard something because it's just based on faith, when you yourself disregard plenty of religions or belief systems. You probably regard Paganism or Hinduism or Scientology in the same way that I regard Islam or Christianity or Judaism.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

 

[Duke]

It's not disrespectful to question someone, even if that someone is a "prophet".

There are a lot of Gods that you don't believe in, TecK, and there are a lot of "prophets" that you don't believe in. You can't tell people that they shouldn't disregard something because it's just based on faith, when you yourself disregard plenty of religions or belief systems. You probably regard Paganism or Hinduism or Scientology in the same way that I regard Islam or Christianity or Judaism.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

*hugs and kisses for Ilu*

 

[TecK NeeX]

It's not disrespectful to question someone, even if that someone is a "prophet".

Did you not read my edit? You must have becasue the edit was made on the 29th and your post was made on the 30th. or did you choose not to read it?

here ill copy and paste it and hope you dont miss it this time

Edit: what i mean by disrespect im just trying to relate that to the mother analogy, you're not actually disrespecting them, that is your decision or how you feel

Thank you.

There are a lot of Gods that you don't believe in, TecK, and there are a lot of "prophets" that you don't believe in. You can't tell people that they shouldn't disregard something because it's just based on faith, when you yourself disregard plenty of religions or belief systems. You probably regard Paganism or Hinduism or Scientology in the same way that I regard Islam or Christianity or Judaism.

Thats irrelevant and has absolutely nothing to do with what i said.

It doesn't matter what religion you follow or what God you believe in, for you to have a lack of faith in the Prophet of that particular religion you also having a lack of faith in that God and what he supposedly said. The same goes for every other religion and God. That IS my point.

If you're having a lack of faith In the Prophet of Islam you're having a lack of faith in Allah

If you're having a lack of faith in the authors of the Bible your having a lack of faith in the Christian God

and so on...

In reply to your post Ilu. The difference between me and Chronic is that If Islam turned out to be wrong and say Hinduism is right, I DO believe i should be punished by the Hindu God for rejecting and for not accepting him as my creator. I'd understand if i were to be punished by all other known Gods besides Allah, because i did not accept them and accepted Allah instead.

So yes you are committing the crime that you say you shouldn't be punished for not committing (to Chronic)

 

[Jokerman]

If Islam turned out to be wrong and say Hinduism is right, I DO believe i should be punished by the Hindu God for rejecting and for not accepting him as my creator.

But what if the Hindu tradition does not claim a god who punishes those who don't believe in him? You're just applying your religion's values and beliefs to other ones. But Chronic, not being hampered by any one religious tradition, has no need to assume a punishing, jealous god, esp. one who punishes someone who had no clear reason to believe in him.

What if you lived in a place or a time, like the past, where you had no chance to hear of the Hindu god? Would or should the Hindu god, if he was the true god, punish you for not believing in him?

 

[Jokerman]

Chronic, the answer to your question ( which you already know) is that if we are dealing with a Supreme Being who created us and everything, and is not associated with any human religious tradition, then, no, he will not punish you for having no faith in him when you don't believe in him in the first place. Unless he's petty and unworthy of being the Supreme Being, of course.

And if you believe in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, then, yes, God will punish you for not having faith even if you don't believe in him. All you have to do is look at the world and you will see God manifest in everything, so how could you not believe in Him (you little bastard)?

But I think you want to debate this with religous people like Teck. See if you can talk them out of their irrationality. It won't work. You're thinking from logic and they're thinking from faith.

 

[TecK NeeX]

But what if the Hindu tradition does not claim a god who punishes those who don't believe in him? You're just applying your religion's values and beliefs to other ones. But Chronic, not being hampered by any one religious tradition, has no need to assume a punishing, jealous god, esp. one who punishes someone who had no clear reason to believe in him.

The point i was trying to make is, I'll be willing to accept anything and i should be ready to accept anything that God wishes to do with my soul for not accepting him, be it a punishment, reward or whatever you have in mind Jokerman

What if you lived in a place or a time, like the past, where you had no chance to hear of the Hindu god? Would or should the Hindu god, if he was the true god, punish you for not believing in him?

I don't know about Hinduism, In Islam God will judge everyone according to the environment they were in, In the Qur'an there is verse that says "We were not to punish till having sent a warner" So if a person never heard about Islam, and was never warned clearly God would have a special test for that person that He knows is equal to the chance that person would have had on earth. God is most just.