Not believing in God

[Chronic]

No, knowing that God really exists and when we look up at the sky we can see him watching every move we make it will solely be based on fear knowing that we will be judged on how we live our lives. Fact will not give us much of a freedom to believe or reject God's existence. We would all shit our pants if he actually did that knowing the discreption of hell in his scriptures, including you.

I think you're confusing what he's saying. Currently our belief in God is based on faith. We don't know for sure that he exists so if you believe in him it's based on faith, not fact. If he made his presence known faith wouldn't be in the picture as it's a fact that he exists. You don't talk about believing in something's existence when you know it does.

I think you're talking about the reason to believe in God.

Seperate question: Personally I will never come to a conclusion about his existence, will I be punished for that? What does it say in the Qur'an?

 

[XIAN]

God is not going to punish you. Your life could be better by being a good person, and that's what every religion is saying.

Faith in God is not about rules. It is not about living like someone is watching for you to make a mistake. God is not even a someone. Thinking this is what scares many people away. Just because the dogmas and doctrines don't make sense to you, does not mean that God cannot make sense to you.

Simone Weil is probably my favorite x-ian philosopher:

"An atheist may be simply one whose faith and love are concentrated on the impersonal aspects of God."

"Charity. To love human beings in so far as they are nothing. That is to love them as God does. "

"In the Church, considered as a social organism, the mysteries inevitably degenerate into beliefs."

"Two prisoners whose cells adjoin communicate with each other by knocking on the wall. The wall is the thing which separates them but is also their means of communication. It is the same with us and God. Every separation is a link."

"We can only know one thing about God - that he is what we are not. Our wretchedness alone is an image of this. The more we contemplate it, the more we contemplate him."

More:
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/simone_weil.html

 

[TecK NeeX]

I meant God punishing you for not believing in him. In this very thread _carmi said her mom believes that _carmi is going to Hell for not believing in God.

I believe that at the end of the day We will all come before God and also at the end of the day punishment or reward will be God's and only Gods decision. But he has made it very clear to us that when you deny his existence and you die with that belief your after life is not going to be very pleasant. Makes perfect sence to me and i find that very acceptable and fair since God created us to be his vicegerents.

So there's a person you've come across that believes it.

No ive come across many people that believe God will punish those who refuse to acknowledge his existence, what i havent come across was when you first said God gets angry at those who dont believe he exists, but thats not what you meant.

When did I say that's what it says in the Holy Books?

When did I say you said it is found in the holy books? looks like you need to take your own advice and read peoples posts a little better. I just said before i judge what people say i confirm it to be true or not first. Many people say false things about Islam yet they're totaly not true but those that dont know better actually believe it.

Do you know how stupid you sound? By saying it doesn't make sense to follow God's rules without believing in God you're saying they'd only be good rules to follow if God existed. There are some rules that I think are good so I'll try to follow them regardless of whether God exists (not all of them though and I never claimed so either). What's not to believe about that?

Wow ok lets agree to disagree on this and leave it at that.

I expect God not to be petty.
And you haven't exactly given any arguments to help me understand besides "it's the law". Blindly following a religion doesn't quite cut it for me. Any arguments you can give to help me understand?

God is not petty, God is fair and just. Good works alone will not win you a trip to heaven, good works must come with faith, love, true and sincere worship in our creator. He created us for our benefit, not his. Every person will be rewarded or punished according to their attitude, appreciation and efforts during this stay on earth

You must know your Creator, Sustainer and Ultimate Judge. you must believe in Him, thank Him, praise Him, honor Him and worship Him, you must learn about His Messengers and Prophets (PBUT) and the message with which they were all sent. How can you do all that if you dont believe he exists?

Denying the Existence of God means you're denying everything he has created including yourself, his Messengers/Prophets, Judgement day, Heaven and Hell. To give you an Islamic perspective a Muslim must know and believe in all these things as follows:

1- The first life is a test.

2- The life in the grave is a resting or waiting place before the Day of Judgment.

3- The Day of Judgment brings about the clear understanding of what will happen to the individual based on his own desires and actions.

4- The Permanent or Afterlife will either be in Heaven or Hell

Also, he has no doubt in his mind that:

- He is only created by God(Allah)

- He is going to spend a period of time in this material world.

- He knows he will die.

- He knows he will spend time in the grave, either pleasant or difficult, depending on his own choice of attitude and actions.

- He knows he will be resurrected on the Day of Judgment.

- He knows he will be judged according to the most fair of standards by God

- He knows his attitudes and actions are going to come under very close scrutiny.

- He knows that this short life compared to the Eternal Life in fact, is only for a test.

Again how can you believe and accept all that if you dont believe God exists to begin with? Now you see the importance of believing in the existence of God?

Entering paradise can be simply stated in only two words: Obey God.

By denying the existence of God you're denying all that stated above NOT just his existence. IMO a person has no hope whatsoever if he does not believe his creator exists.

Thats the beauty of free will. to try and test us with no interference from God. Its up to us wether we reject or accept him without the fear of him appearing before us up in the sky. What would be the point of this trial and test if he made himself known? Atheists are a perfect example for me why God has done that. I doubt Atheism would even exist today if God all of the sudeen shouted "I am God, I exist"

I am not being "controlled" by having this belief like most atheists love to label people of faith. I DO have just as much freedom as them to reject this belief, no one forced me to accept it. I can leave Islam this minute if i wanted to, but I Choose not to, not because im being controlled so that i wont.

I don't get it though. First you say you haven't come across a religion where God punishes you for not believing in him while here you say refusal to acknowledge God will earn you a spot in Hell. Or are you still discussing God getting angry even though I clearly stated that I meant something else?

Yes i did. My fault, maybe you should have started this thread with the simple question of "does God punish you for not believing in him and his existence?"

 

[Jokerman]

The world is simply ablaze with bad ideas.

 

[TecK NeeX]

What does God say about u speaking for him? Please speak for ur self only.

I dont know. but i do know what God says about morons. get back at me if you want to know what. I'm not speaking for him im speaking what he said. lay off the crack pipe man

 

[PELLA]

u go to hell if u dont beleive in God (varies from each religion) but u go to hell anyway.


Close this.

 

[Chronic]

maybe you should have started this thread with the simple question of "does God punish you for not believing in him and his existence?"

That wasn't at all my question though.
I was trying to explain why I felt that not believing in God isn't truly a lack of faith in Him so why would he punish us for having a lack of faith? Meaning I feel that we'd be punished for a crime we did not commit. The argument "It's His law" for example therefore doesn't answer anything for me.

But please just reply to this:

There is no indefinite proof that God exists.
There is no indefinite proof that God does not exist.

With this realization I cannot have a firm belief in either possibility.

I won't say that God exists because I don't and can't know.
I won't say that God does not exist because I don't and can't know.

I can only acknowledge that both are a possibility.

I can't truly believe something when I'm not truly sure of it. That would mean lying to myself and even then I wouldn't truly believe it.
Of course I could live my life following His supposed word hoping he exists but I still wouldn't truly believe it.
I'm more than willing to accept the possiblity that He exists and I could devote my life to Him but on my death bed I would still wonder if I'm going to meet God or if live will simply end.

Will I be punished for this? Or only if I flat-out say "God does not exist"?
It's not that I'm not willing to accept Him, it's that I'm not capable of it because of the way my mind works.

(This is not my original question but I feel our discussion got sidetracked anyway and we were arguing in circles)

 

[TecK NeeX]

I was trying to explain why I felt that not believing in God isn't truly a lack of faith in Him so why would he punish us for having a lack of faith? Meaning I feel that we'd be punished for a crime we did not commit. The argument "It's His law" for example therefore doesn't answer anything for me.

But please just reply to this:

I can't truly believe something when I'm not truly sure of it. That would mean lying to myself and even then I wouldn't truly believe it. Of course I could live my life following His supposed word hoping he exists but I still wouldn't truly believe it.
I'm more than willing to accept the possiblity that He exists and I could devote my life to Him but on my death bed I would still wonder if I'm going to meet God or if live will simply end.

Will I be punished for this? Or only if I flat-out say "God does not exist"? It's not that I'm not willing to accept Him, it's that I'm not capable of it because of the way my mind works.

Whats worse lack of faith in God or no faith in God at all? Denying the existence of your creator is the ultimate crime, it might not seem much of a crime here on Earth but in the next life this is a belief we dont want to hold on to when we die. Id really like to know how you came to the conclusion that not believing in God can not be considered a lack of faith?

You must understand that this life 'the first life' is a test or an examination. It defeats the purpose of life, why God created us and this test If God appeared before us all and made us sure of his existence, that would contradict the concept of heaven and hell including the Day of Judgement as well as the free will he has given us to come about into believing in him on our own free choice with no interference from God. The situation you're in right now is you're stuck right in the middle of this exam, you still have your whole life ahead of you to complete it.

We all wonder if we get to meet God after the end of this life including me. I just try and do my best and hope that i have passed this test and leave the rest to him. Follow what he has asked of me and pray that it is accepted by him. thats the test. I just dont think we will be 100% free to choose what path in life we take or what we truly want to do if he made his existence clearly known to every human being.

 

[Duke]

We all wonder if we get to meet God after the end of this life including me. I just try and do my best and hope that i have passed this test and leave the rest to him. Follow what he has asked of me and pray that it is accepted by him. thats the test. I just dont think we will be 100% free to choose what path in life we take or what we truly want to do if he made his existence clearly known to every human being.

That's Chron's point. You live your life as you deem is right and leave the rest to a Creator, if there is one. Fear about retribution for not believing in him is wrong, if you live right, you'll end up right.

Believing in a God shouldn't matter as long as you're a good person. That's his point all along, you seem to miss that however. Really, i kinda like you because you seem to be always honest, however, you are also stuck in your own narrowminded thinking world. Leave the religious dogma, take off the blinders,

 

[Chronic]

Whats worse lack of faith in God or no faith in God at all? Denying the existence of your creator is the ultimate crime, it might not seem much of a crime here on Earth but in the next life this is a belief we dont want to hold on to when we die. Id really like to know how you came to the conclusion that not believing in God can not be considered a lack of faith?

You must understand that this life 'the first life' is a test or an examination. It defeats the purpose of life, why God created us and this test If God appeared before us all and made us sure of his existence, that would contradict the concept of heaven and hell including the Day of Judgement as well as the free will he has given us to come about into believing in him on our own free choice with no interference from God. The situation you're in right now is you're stuck right in the middle of this exam, you still have your whole life ahead of you to complete it.

We all wonder if we get to meet God after the end of this life including me. I just try and do my best and hope that i have passed this test and leave the rest to him. Follow what he has asked of me and pray that it is accepted by him. thats the test. I just dont think we will be 100% free to choose what path in life we take or what we truly want to do if he made his existence clearly known to every human being.

I'm sorry I can't reply to this because you're simply not replying to what I'm saying. Maybe you just don't understand or I'm not getting my point across properly (English is only my second language after all). Either way I find it futile to continue discussing with you.
Thanks for replying to the thread though (no sarcasm).

 

[Chronic]

I just thought of a fitting analogy and I would like to answer one of your questions since you expressed that you'd really like a response.
"Id really like to know how you came to the conclusion that not believing in God can not be considered a lack of faith?"

Imagine you get into an argument with a complete stranger and he says something disrespectful about your mother. You might get offended that he disrespected your mother but did he? He has never met your mother, he doesn't even know she exists (he just knows you have a mother like everyone else) so how could he disrespect her? He might be talking about your mother but the person he's really disrespecting is you. He's trying to hurt you by saying something bad about presumingly someone important in your life.

That's how I see not believing in God. If he doesn't exist you can't actually not believe in him. So people that think he was made-up aren't knowingly disrespecting God in any way. You could only disrespect him knowingly if you thought he existed but refused to acknowledge him. That's why I feel not believing in God isn't truly a lot of faith in Him, but just a lack of faith in the people that tell you he exists.

 

[Jokerman]

not believing in God isn't truly a lack of faith in Him, but just a lack of faith in the people that tell you he exists.

Or better, a lack of faith in the idea of Him, and not in Him per se. And, also, in the case of your mother, that person is disrespecting the abstract idea of your mother, as you said, in order to disrespect you.

Maybe Teck will understand what you mean now, but I suspect his faith is blocking the understanding of that distinction for him.

 

[Playa77777]

i think all fundamentelist are wrong i think god is in us all if u know yourself u know god i belive ther are 2 forms for atheist 1. mad believeing in nothin than themselves what makes sure he knows god not knowing. 2. the i dont care guy who never comes to chill and think to make sure he can eat. so when god is in everybody everybody is a prophet so look at paris hilton as a prophet who believe money is god, but still she dont got all money in the world same with the god searcher prophets jesus dont got the full picture like buddha dont, but their ways help u find god. life is not a game its just beeing, as a beeing u can play games, but u not in a game like Xian says no matter what humans do it repairs itself for that we got feelings nobody likes that 100.000 people diying cuz their hungry everyday, look today im sure the 3world got things u not see that the 1world dont have same different. if god would be everywhere it would be dictatorship, u have to know humans are weak nothing without a soul just meat, that u eat when u hungry and nothing else is there. god dont playing games with us, sorry for my language.

The bad use God, God use the good.

letd me add this.
I believe that the el qaida and all this fuckin religion fundamentalist, repairing american ignorrance theres no conclusion to this point without overthinking both standpoints the arabs that wanna live in peace have to get rid of their fake prophets same as u americans have to. and the momma that send his own son into her minds hell is in my opinion without disrepecting cuz she wanna be gods sheep just a lil bit foolish and non relevant.

 

[Mr.Deuce]

i believe in god.
u cant say "if there´s a god then why...." na mean?
god is there.our life is just a test.the preparing for the "real/big life".

 

[Rahim]

Right now I'm only speaking about myself, my thoughts and how I feel. So please don't take any of this personally. As you can tell religion is a big topic with lots of arguments coming from both sides.



I do believe in GOD (ALLAH). And I don't need any proof of his existance. If you just look at the small things in your daily life you'll see that this whole world is a miracle. Some people reading this might not agree with me in some way or another, but please repsect my beliefs.

I believe that everything happends for a good reason. And that our wishes can come true. But we have to have patience and be satisfied with what we have at the moment. Some things in life we just can't have. Maybe because it will make us to "proud" or "cocky" and take away our humility. But if you really want your prayers and wishes to come true (also knowing that your wishes and prayers have to be something with good intentions. Nothing bad like wishing death on someone) then wait. Because all good things come to those who wait. And GOD won't hold anything good away from you. Things just take time. If all of us just had the patience to wait for the things we want and have faith through all these tests that he puts us through then the world would be ours. But since the devil is trying to seduce us, there are non believers upon us who are against all that is good and true.

I'm not preaching to anyone but these are the thoughts that are coming to mind at the moment

 

[Playa77777]

My own believe is this karma reincarnation without god judging me and packing me anywhere.
what do you mean with preparing for the real live? dou u believe that life on earth is test so that god can see how good u are an than u come in something like a paradise.?

 

[Sebastian]

Its cool that some of you want to take part in the conversation but it would be better if you answer to Chronics question, or comment on his main point instead of giving your personal opinion about religion and god.

Btw, nice analogy Chronic. Of course i agree with you.

 

[TecK NeeX]

Imagine you get into an argument with a complete stranger and he says something disrespectful about your mother. You might get offended that he disrespected your mother but did he? He has never met your mother, he doesn't even know she exists (he just knows you have a mother like everyone else) so how could he disrespect her? He might be talking about your mother but the person he's really disrespecting is you. He's trying to hurt you by saying something bad about presumingly someone important in your life.

That's how I see not believing in God. If he doesn't exist you can't actually not believe in him. So people that think he was made-up aren't knowingly disrespecting God in any way. You could only disrespect him knowingly if you thought he existed but refused to acknowledge him. That's why I feel not believing in God isn't truly a lot of faith in Him, but just a lack of faith in the people that tell you he exists.

Your problem is you wont accept anything short of physical proof of God. We his creations were created to develop a relationship with our creator and understand him and his intentions of why he created us. That is our duty and purpose in life.

If i disrespected a mother without actually doing the neccessary work to getting to know her and understand her that would be very ignorant of me. How much have of you done to "know God"? You say you dont know God or if he exists yet what have you done to know him? thats where your lack of faith comes in. The lack of faith in his existence, you simply wont accept anything other than God appearing before you "shouting" he is God and he Exists. Am i correct? What would be the point of faith if he did just that?

Because you believe there is no indefinite proof of God's existence you wont put the effort in trying to develope a faith in him. that to me is lack of faith and ignorance because in your mind proof of his existence does not exit so you question yourself "why should i bother to know him"?. Dont expect answers to come knocking on your door.

In my teenage years i had very little understanding of God and i even questioned myself if he actually existed or not, However had i not gone out and conversed with those who know God and did a little reading about God, His Prophets and Islam for myself I'd be in the same boat as you right now. I pushed my ignorance aside got off my ass and searched for answers and i did, why? because i had faith. You have none, You want to physically see God

 

[Chronic]

Your problem is you wont accept anything short of physical proof of God. We his creations were created to develop a relationship with our creator and understand him and his intentions of why he created us. That is our duty and purpose in life.

If i disrespected a mother without actually doing the neccessary work to getting to know her and understand her that would be very ignorant of me. How much have of you done to "know God"? You say you dont know God or if he exists yet what have you done to know him? thats where your lack of faith comes in. The lack of faith in his existence, you simply wont accept anything other than God appearing before you "shouting" he is God and he Exists. Am i correct? What would be the point of faith if he did just that?

Because you believe there is no indefinite proof of God's existence you wont put the effort in trying to develope a faith in him. that to me is lack of faith and ignorance because in your mind proof of his existence does not exit so you question yourself "why should i bother to know him"?. Dont expect answers to come knocking on your door.

In my teenage years i had very little understanding of God and i even questioned myself if he actually existed or not, However had i not gone out and conversed with those who know God and did a little reading about God, His Prophets and Islam for myself I'd be in the same boat as you right now. I pushed my ignorance aside got off my ass and searched for answers and i did, why? because i had faith. You have none, You want to physically see God

Sounding pretty hostile and judgemental there.
No point in going any further with this discussion as yet again you completely missed the point (I don't even think you read the analogy), replied to things I didn't say and on top of that you're making bullshit assumptions that have nothing to do with the thread ie "Because you believe there is no indefinite proof of God's existence you wont put the effort in trying to develope a faith in him.".

Really, i kinda like you because you seem to be always honest, however, you are also stuck in your own narrowminded thinking world. Leave the religious dogma, take off the blinders,

Its cool that some of you want to take part in the conversation but it would be better if you answer to Chronics question, or comment on his main point instead of giving your personal opinion about religion and god.

Maybe Teck will understand what you mean now, but I suspect his faith is blocking the understanding of that distinction for him.

All three of them are intelligent, good posters and got my point. And all three of them agree with me that you simply don't understand my point. Not saying that automatically makes them right but it's something to think about.

I'll be more than happy to discuss with you once you understand the thread and reply to what I'm saying.

 

[TecK NeeX]

Lol i completely understand you, however you're not getting what im trying to say, i've replied to everything you've asked with reasonable answers yet you dont seem to understand anything i say. i am giving up on this, you dont understand the religious point of view because you know absolutely nothing about it.

Duke went on to say this

Believing in a God shouldn't matter as long as you're a good person. That's his point all along, you seem to miss that however

Is that REALLY your point all along?

Had he read my posts he would have noticed that i replied to why Good works alone just doesnt cut it and why believing in God DOES matter. So how could he say i am "missing that" when i've made a whole post regarding good works? one explanation, he never read a single post of mine. he just wanted to make you look like you have a good argument same with jokerman.

Im beginning to wonder if any of you are actually reading my posts. i doubt you are

If i were you id read my posts again, your answer can be found in them